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#1 Edited by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

 

Location



 

To maximize, please save image and view with a program you have.


Time: Midday 
Population: Unpopulated 
Buidlings consist of standard interiors (narrow hallways, open apartments on upper levels, limited furntire, basic shops on the first floors) 

Rooftops are flat 
Team DC begins at blue X on far left (in distance) 
Team Marvel begins at right X on far right (in distance) 
Everything is on limits. 
The middle street does not lead anywhere.  Assume it is a dead end.

Rules

-Both teams have basic knowledge of who they are facing.  This includes names and basic power set (physical attributes, standard gear, if possible, mutant abilities). They know nothing of the other team's personalities, tactics, and so forth. 
-Both teams are aware of the starting locations. 
-Character morals apply. 
-Elimination by all standard methods (BFR, KO, incapacitation, death)

-No weapon swapping or simply using another character's weapons/gear. 
-Characters will not cause physical harm to teammates on purpose.  
-Characters have unlimited ammo unless otherwise specified.
-Keep in mind, you're debating why you believe your team would win in combat based on how they would act.  Not how you would command and plan the attack. 
 

UPDATED EQUIPMENT FOR ROUND TWO

 
The Avengers: Captain America (Rogers, Shield), Hawkeye (Batron, regular arrows, 2 explosive, 1 grappling, 1 sonic, twin nunchaku), Spider-Man (current, no extra web cartridges)  

Bat-Family: Bruce Wayne (standard batman armor, regular batarangs, smoke pellets, grappling gun,), Batgirl (standard batarangs), Nightwing (Dick, twin eskrima, wrist grappling line)

#2 Posted by LT1085 (3658 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite said:
"  

Location



 

To maximize, please save image and view with a program you have.


Time: Midday 
Population: Unpopulated 
Buidlings consist of standard interiors (narrow hallways, open apartments on upper levels, limited furntire, basic shops on the first floors) 

Rooftops are flat 
Team DC begins at blue X on far left (in distance) 
Team Marvel begins at right X on far right (in distance) 
Everything is on limits. 
The middle street does not lead anywhere.  Assume it is a dead end.

Rules

-Both teams have basic knowledge of who they are facing.  This includes names and basic power set (physical attributes, standard gear, if possible, mutant abilities). They know nothing of the other team's personalities, tactics, and so forth. 
-Both teams are aware of the starting locations. 
-Character morals apply. 
-Elimination by all standard methods (BFR, KO, incapacitation, death)

-No weapon swapping or simply using another character's weapons/gear. 
-Characters will not cause physical harm to teammates on purpose.  
-Characters have unlimited ammo unless otherwise specified.
-Keep in mind, you're debating why you believe your team would win in combat based on how they would act.  Not how you would command and plan the attack. 
 

UPDATED EQUIPMENT FOR ROUND TWO

 
The Avengers: Captain America (Rogers, Shield), Hawkeye (Batron, regular arrows, 2 explosive, 1 grappling, 1 sonic, twin nunchaku), Spider-Man (current, no extra web cartridges)  

Bat-Family: Bruce Wayne (standard batman armor, regular batarangs, smoke pellets, grappling gun,), Batgirl (standard batarangs), Nightwing (Dick, twin eskrima, wrist grappling line)

"
Odd choice of equipment for such a battle...
#3 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@LT1085: I assume that's there to clarify which Nightwing(I think there have been others who've used the name) Anyway, K4tz typed that up not me, so it's his problem not mine. If Dane thinks Nightwing will use that........weapon.......then it's just easier to debate against.
#4 Posted by k4tzm4n (36420 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: 
Yes, that's why :P 
 
@LT1085:
  
lol 
 
Staff Online
#5 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite said:
" @LT1085: I assume that's there to clarify which Nightwing(I think there have been others who've used the name) Anyway, K4tz typed that up not me, so it's his problem not mine. If Dane thinks Nightwing will use that........weapon.......then it's just easier to debate against. "

Be ye warned. The *ahem* manhood of a member of the Bat Family is a truly terrible weapon to behold.
#6 Posted by k4tzm4n (36420 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus said:
"@Decoy Elite said:
" @LT1085: I assume that's there to clarify which Nightwing(I think there have been others who've used the name) Anyway, K4tz typed that up not me, so it's his problem not mine. If Dane thinks Nightwing will use that........weapon.......then it's just easier to debate against. "
Be ye warned. The *ahem* manhood of a member of the Bat Family is a truly terrible weapon to behold. "

o.0 lol
Staff Online
#7 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

b-b-b-bump
#8 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to PM Dane.

#9 Posted by Dane (10589 posts) - - Show Bio

Good Morning gentlemen.

#10 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" Good Morning gentlemen. "
Hello, I hope you're ready to lose today.
#11 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

It's evening right now. Not morning. 
Silly Australian :)

#12 Posted by Matezoide2 (15994 posts) - - Show Bio
#13 Edited by Dane (10589 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite:
I'm always prepared to lose or be proven wrong.
 
Hmm, my point of view would honestly be that my team are generally more skilled, too fast to be hit by projectiles like spider-web, Cap's shield or Hawkeye's arrows and much less compromising with morals on.
 
Captain America and Spider-Man pretty much always hold back initially. Clint Barton isn't necessarily good enough to dodge even opening attacks from fighters like Grayson, Wayne and Cain. Moreover, the Bats are all better trackers. And the urban environment is their home pitch so to speak. I think the Bat-Family have a pretty solid advantage in that department, enough for them to get the drop on their enemies.
#14 Posted by spidey 15 (17756 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane:
@Decoy Elite:
Damn, Morals apply here...LOL 
 
Anyway, good luck to both of you. 
 
=D
#15 Posted by mavfan626 (4121 posts) - - Show Bio

 
This is going to be great, good luck two you both!

#16 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @Decoy Elite: I'm always prepared to lose or be proven wrong.  Hmm, my point of view would honestly be that my team are generally more skilled, too fast to be hit by projectiles like spider-web, Cap's shield or Hawkeye's arrows and much less compromising with morals on.  Captain America and Spider-Man pretty much always hold back initially. Clint Barton isn't necessarily good enough to dodge even opening attacks from fighters like Grayson, Wayne and Cain. Moreover, they're all better trackers. And the urban environment is their home pitch so to speak. I think the Bat-Family have a pretty solid advantage in that department, enough for them to get the drop on their enemies. "
Right, well given the amount of knowledge each team has on each other this could go one of two ways, both ending with my team winning. 
1. Bats and Cap both decide splitting up and dealing with the each opponent individually. This would most likely lead to three separate mini battles. Spider-Man vs Cass, Batman vs Cap, and Hawkeye vs Grayson. 
Personally, I think Spider-Man can take Cass, not only is he faster and stronger but he also has his Spider sense which would make an effect counter to Cass's move reading. Sure, she knows what he's going to do next but Spidey can still counter his counter due to pre-cog. So basically you have a bit of a stalemate until you factor in Spidey's speed which is even greater than Cass's own. He should be able to take her down after a long drawn out fight. Speaking of long drawn out fights, Batman and Cap is one of the most debated fights ever, personally I think Cap doesn't need to beat Bats persay, just hold him off until Spidey beasts Cass and I think Cap has the skill to do so. Hawkeye vs Grayson is a tricky one, on one hand if Hawkeye catches Grayson out in the open, things will end badly for Grayson fast. Now if Grayson sneaks up on Hawkeye, he might be able to take him down. The problem is that Hawkeye is likely to take to the roofs which means that Nightwing won't have as much cover and will have a hard time actually sneaking up on Hawkeye(who will no doubt be watching his back). Even if Nightwing gets in close, Hawkeye still has experience at cqc and while he's not as skilled as Nightwing he should be able to push Nightwing back a bit and then run to get some more room between himself and Grayson so that he can make better use of his long range attacks. Either way, they'll be at it for a while, possibly more so than Cap vs Bats. Anyway, at some point Spidey takes down Cass and then heads out to help Cap. They double team Bats and then Bats goes down. Then it's either a double or triple team on Grayson ending in one broken bird. 
 
The other possibility is that they stay together which I'll discuss more if you think it's more likely. 
 
#17 Edited by Dane (10589 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: 
1. If you want to go down the Spider-Man vs superior martial artist road, I'm more than happy to. For reference, Spider-Man has been soundly defeated by a myriad of less skilled martial artists who didn't have Cassandra's move reading.
 
2. Cap vs Batman is a very close encounter, it could go either way. I think it's your prerogative to lean toward your own team member over mine but that's understandable.
 
3. I'm not sure how much Nightwing you've read but even Clint Barton would have extreme difficulty tagging Dick Grayson at any range. Moreover, Grayson is several orders of magnitude faster and more agile than Barton, 'pushing him back and running away to get space for a shot' just is not on the cards.
 
Background info:

Dick throw accuracy


Dick dodging








Dick detection

Dick reaction

Dick noises
Dick interception


Dick speed!



Dick skills




and who could forget Dick-Stroke!








 
 
That's a pretty handy Dick.
#18 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

Epic scan orgy is epic.  
 

Dick dodging     
 Dick detection     
Dick noises     
Dick interception     
Dick speed! 
Dick skills         
Dick-Stroke! 

 
It's for reasons like that that I have a hard time taking Grayson seriously. 
I just can't read that without snickering.
#19 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: 1. Serveral factors make Spider-Man lose to martial artist. 1.Outside factors(such as bloodlust or something that messes with his Spider-Sense), 2. He doesn't want to hurt them, usually said martial artists are his friends(DD, Iron Fist) 3. Holding back, which if Cap advises him against because of prior knowledge on Cass, he won't. None of these factors are present here, Spidey's not getting messed up in the head, he's not friends with Cass, and Cap should advise him to not hold back.
2.Same with you, I think we can both agree that said fight shall last quite a while?
3. Hawkeye is pretty handy himself, 
 








 

 Yes I know he's using lots of special arrows, but he's still very accurate while on the move and dodging.

 
 
 
He doesn't even need to use his bow(okay yes I know those guys are punks)
  
 Dodging feat


 Accuracy



 Some Bullseye sh!t right there.


That's one handy.....Clint.
#20 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: You steal those scans from me? LOL. Nice use of them.
#21 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower said:
" @Decoy Elite: You steal those scans from me? LOL. Nice use of them. "
Yes I did, thank you for having an area for Clink in your gallery. :D
But seriously, I'm going to need all the help I can get, Dane's no joke and he's not leaving after one post like Luna.
#22 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: LOL, it's cool. You can use any of them you want to. I'll get more also if you need them.
#23 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower said:
" @Decoy Elite: LOL, it's cool. You can use any of them you want to. I'll get more also if you need them. "
Thanks! :D
I'd rather you not get more for me though as I feel that would be cheating(somehow)
#24 Posted by Dane (10589 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite:
 
1. In all of their New Avengers adventures never once did Steve Rogers tell Spider-Man to stop pulling his punches against enemies. That's just not in character for them.
 
2. Agreed, it's the other matchups that will determine the winner.
 
3. All very handy scans but none of that stuff puts him on Grayson's level hand to hand and he is never shown tagging highly skilled fighters like Batman or Nightwing. Nightwing is not far off Bruce Wayne's level. He isn't quite as strong (though still very strong) but he is faster and more agile. He even has better showings against some of Bruce's regular opponents like Deathstroke and Ra's al Ghul.
 
 Since you're in agreement that Batman and Captain America are quite similar can you honestly say you think Clint would beat Batman? If not then he shouldn't beat Nightwing who has an even better chance given his much higher speed, agility and acrobatics level.
#25 Edited by Dane (10589 posts) - - Show Bio

In other news, why wouldn't Batman use his smoke pellets and beat Cap down in the smoke? he's a master blind-fighter.













#26 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: 1. Okay, but there's still the fact that Spider-Man won't being going as easy as he does against other martial artists. Not to mention, once Spidey sees the kind of things Cass can pull off he's likely to rely on his Spider sense more and use his physical stats to his advantage. 
2.Very well then.
3. Nightwing is very good, but he is not as good Batman. There is a difference in skill there that honestly isn't really being shown currently(Batman Grayson is magically a better fighter now due to being dressed up as Batman is the most random thing I've ever seen) not to mention I honestly think Clint very well could cause Batman some issues. Batman rarely deals with opponents as accurate as Clint and the same goes for Nightwing(to a lesser extent). Not that Clint even needs to beat Nightwing, he just needs to hold out until Spider-Man wins(in which case it doesn't matter if he loses)
 
Deathstroke is more Grayson's villain than Batman's, thus why they're often shown to be fighting on equal footing(except when DS owns the entire Titans cast  or JLA members :/) Ra's.....Ra's is an enigma of feats. He's said to be one of the world's greatest swordsmen and yet all his swordsmanship feats are losing to Batman.........oh and beating up Red Robin. 
#27 Posted by James Lasagnaboy (52 posts) - - Show Bio

Eh... Marvel.

#28 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@James Lasagnaboy said:
" Eh... Marvel. "
Please wait till the debate has ended and then vote based on who you think won the debate, not who's team wins.
#29 Posted by Dane (10589 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: 
1. by the time he sees what Cass can do he'll probably be numb from the neck down. Same deal with Captain America. Sure he might be all in love with Steve loves him too. And he was trying to bring Cap in and he won't have the Iron Spider Suit here to protect him, plus Cassandra Cain is arguably faster and much more skilled than Captain America.

3. I'd even say he's a worse fighter as Batman. Seriously, he wrecked some serious shop as Nightwing. Batman never deals with guys as accurate as Clint? How about Deadshot, who he schools every other week or Artemis whose skill is supposed to be above Wonder Woman's. Deathstroke has stated that Grayson was always the most dangerous Teen Titan and as such, tried to take him down first. Just because Ra's al Ghul doesn't beat Batman doesn't mean he isn't a great swordsman.

#30 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Spider-Man lost to Cap in Civil War was because of two major factors 1. Spider-Man didn't want to hurt his friend. Did Cap want to hurt Spidey? No, but he was much more willing to bring the pain as he was much more set on his side unlike Spidey who ended up actually joining Cap's side later. 2. Cap knew what he was dealing with, I know they have info on each other, but Cass is nowhere near as experienced with Spidey as Cap was(obviously).  Quick question, can Cass read moves while she's  blind?
 
Nightwing fought Deadshot? When? Deathstroke most likely said that because of Nightwing's planning ability and leadership skills. I'm just saying Ra's is hard to really use as an example of someone that's a great fighter when all he does is lose(except to Red Robin) I understand he's skilled, but how skilled is honestly up to question as it's clear he's not the best swordsman as Batman took him down in a sword fight.
#31 Posted by Dane (10589 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: 
On Spider-Man vs Cap: I really think Cap was just going for disabling moves like the nerve strikes in that fight. Plus he knew his punches would never really hurt Spider-Man.
 
On Cass: She can fight blind and the move reading isn't focused solely on what she can see, so I can't see why not. Any Martial Artist can tell you that relying solely on your eyes is a terrible idea.
 
On Nightwing:

Batman rarely deals with opponents as accurate as Clint and the same goes for Nightwing

That's what I meant by Bruce fighting Deadshot and Artemis. But now that you mention it Dick has schooled Red Arrow/Arsenal countless times and Roy can't be too different to Clint in terms of skills. They're very similar in abilities actually.
#32 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite:
Holy crap I LOVE those Hawkeye scans!
#33 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Cap being well versed on just what Spidey could do had a big impact on the fight, if Cap didn't know just how Spider-Man fights he would have been slaughtered.  
There goes my plan to pull out scans of Spider-Man tagging different martial artists in the eyes. :/ 
 
Deadshot would kill Bruce if he actually wanted to. That can't be stressed enough. As for Red Arrow, could you posts scans of the fight you're referring to? Or at least explain the fight(for instance if it was a sparing session or if Red Arrow got owned or actually did well)
#34 Edited by Dane (10589 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: 
Fights vs Arsenal
 

















More Agility feats





 
Avoids Doctor Octopus-like tentacles
   
Avoids a speed-super kick from Jesse Quick 

#35 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane:  For a guy called Red Arrow, Conner sure isn't using any in those scans. >.< 
Jessie was most likely holding back(hopefully, because I get a headache every time a peak human dodges or tags a speedster...unless it's the Rouges, but they're special)
#36 Posted by Dane (10589 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: Well the fact remains that Nightwing intercepted his arrow and has intercepted much faster things like lasers with his wing-dings and dodges bullets with absurd ease. 
 






How many scans do you want of Dick dodging shit before you accept that a quiver of arrows aren't going to cut the cake for Clint Barton?
#37 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Well you got to factor in several things, 1. Marksmanship and 2 trick arrows. 
For instance, let's say Nightwing dodges an explosive arrow. Does he dodge the  explosion that follows as well? What about a sonic arrow? He doesn't really have a way to dodge the high pitched sound it emits(which could throw him off guard long enough for Clint to get some shots in that Nightwing won't dodge) I fully understand that Nightwing can dodge Clint's arrows, I just don't think he can dodge everything that Clint can throw at him(which is why I wanted to see more arrows from Conner as he uses trick arrows sometimes)
#38 Edited by Dane (10589 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: 
In the case of a sonic arrow, since they're on the rooftops couldn't he just duck behind something like a water tower, behind a concrete wall or jump off the rooftop entirely and use his grappling line to swing back toward Barton?
 
In the case of an explosive arrow, with morals on he simply won't fire it at a normal person and Batsuits have absorbed explosions before. In fact, Nightwing survived being inside an exploding building with his suit. And same with him shooting several arrows into an injured or downed opponent, it's not within his morals.
#39 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @Decoy Elite:  In the case of a sonic arrow, since they're on the rooftops couldn't he just duck behind something like a water tower or jump off the rooftop entirely and use his grappling line to swing back toward Barton?  In the case of an explosive arrow, with morals on he simply won't fire it at a normal person and Batsuits have absorbed explosions before. In fact, Nightwing survived being inside an exploding building with his suit. And same with him shooting several arrows into an injured or downed opponent, it's not within his morals. "
He could run away from the sonic arrow, but how would he know it's one until it's too late?
 
As for morals keeping him from using his explosive arrows to the fullest...

 I wouldn't count on that too much.
#40 Edited by Dane (10589 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: I believe that needs both context and the following panel.
 
Also, he'd know it's a specialized kind of arrow because he's intimately familiar with Red/Green Arrow's set of trick arrows, which are frankly much more powerful than Clint's. It's also kind of obvious because trick arrows look different. You can actually see that they aren't regular hunting arrows by their design and shape.
#41 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane: Crap you're right, I forgot that he knew the durability of that villain and that he would mostly likely survive. My bad. :( 
 I thought that Clint was willing to kill/maim, but now I'm a bit unsure of that. I'll get back to you on the subject after a little digging around.
 
And he'd be able to tell as they zip right at him?
#42 Posted by Dane (10589 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: Clint won't kill, definitely not while Captain America is standing nearby.
 
I was thinking Dick would probably have more time to see them as they were being put to the bow. Ya know, binocular magnifying lenses in his mask and all.
#43 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @Decoy Elite: Clint won't kill, definitely not while Captain America is standing nearby.  I was thinking Dick would probably have more time to see them as they were being put to the bow. Ya know, binocular magnifying lenses in his mask and all. "
Yeah, okay that clenches it. You're correct. Although I do feel that he's brutal enough to shoot Nighwing in non lethal areas while he's down.
 
Please tell me that's a joke.
#44 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio

This might be pretty entertaining.... Bat family ftw.
   
#45 Posted by Dane (10589 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite:  Granted, but non-critical areas against a guy wearing solid Kevlar? I'll post some scans on Dick's strength of will some time soon. He was tortured constantly for 52 hours and still beat down Vigilante without rest afterwards. Even if he does get pegged with a few arrows it really won't stop him.
 
And no, his mask lenses have different vision modes. It should certainly help with risk assessment.
#46 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane:  Alright I see your point.
 
I hate bat tech. :/
 
Honestly, I can't think of how I can argue this further, you've got me in quite the corner. You wanna go to voting or do you have some final points to make?
#47 Edited by Dane (10589 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: 
Mmm, I'm happy to go to voting.
 
I think a summary of my points would be:
-Cassandra Cain has the speed to hang with Spider-Man and the skill to take him down with precision nerve strikes and move reading.
-Batman and Captain America is extremely close. Could go either way. I think Batman may possibly have an advantage through his gear. He could use smoke pellets to turn the fight to his advantage and fight in the dark. His cowl has thermal vision modes but he has also shown he can fight top shelf opponents (that guy one shot Ra's al Ghul) completely blinded.
-Nightwing is really too fast and skilled for Clint Barton. He's too agile at range to tag and he's too good up close to be troubled with Clint h2h.
#48 Posted by HumanNumber (1466 posts) - - Show Bio

Very entertaining debate, that's for sure but i'll have to vote for "handy dandy dick" and his two friends.

#49 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

Despite the fact that Decoy is one of my allies in the Marvel army, and I absolutely f**king love his team, I have to give my vote to Dane.
#50 Posted by Power NeXus (9899 posts) - - Show Bio

bump up in here, yo