Marvel Second Tier Genius Match

Tony Stark, Hank Pym, Reed Richards, and Bruce Banner are holding a competition. A Sceince Fair!

The Contestants get one week for every round and access to New York's University's Science Labs and Tech. (as in No Fantastic Four Labs, Stark Labs, ect.)

Whoever can make the most impressive thing for 3 Categories wins!

R1: A Presentation of Knowledge of respective fields of Science.

R2: Past Science/Prep Feats.

R3: They get to make a device to battle the others in a fight.

vs

vs

vs

Beast, Peter Parker Spider Man, Black Panther, and Superior Spider Man.

I'm rooting for Hank but I don't know enough about the others aside from normal Spiderman perhaps to even begin to guess.

I think its between Black Panther and Superior Spiderman, while Peter has better feats than Ock atm, Dan Slott confirmed that Superior Spiderman at the moment has access to both Peter's and Ock's knowledge making him as smart as both of them combined.

The first prep feat with swagg was pretty impressive in Superior Spiderman 01.

I personally am rooting for Superior Spiderman, with Black Panther taking the second place, and Peter the third.

Black Panther isn't insulted that you consider him second tier because he's too humble, so I'll be prideful and insulted on his behalf. BP created the Quinjet that the "tier 1" guys fly around in, he invented the iphone in '98, he's outfought "tier 1" Iron Man when IM was prepped specifically to bring him down, he's been all in Starks computers without Stark knowing until well after the fact, he made the same armor as Doom when he was 3 years younger and told Iron Man he could make one of his armors if he ever felt like it. He mixes magic and science and even if someone came up with something better than him, he has tech that shuts down other tech with the push of a button.

@Buckshot said:

Black Panther isn't insulted that you consider him second tier because he's too humble, so I'll be prideful and insulted on his behalf. BP created the Quinjet that the "tier 1" guys fly around in, he invented the iphone in '98, he's outfought "tier 1" Iron Man when IM was prepped specifically to bring him down, he made the same armor as Doom when he was 3 years younger and told Iron Man he could make one of his armors if he ever felt like it. He mixes magic and science and even if someone came up with something better than him, he has tech that shuts down other tech with the push of a button.

Cool... yet he is no Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or Bruce Banner who are considered the 4 top Good Guys in brains in Marvel. BP plays second fiddle cause he is humble that is his problem.

T'challa isn't Second Tier Anything.

@Shawnbaby said:

T'challa isn't Second Tier Anything.

this and for the win

@CadenceV2 said:

Cool... yet he is no Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or Bruce Banner who are considered the 4 top Good Guys in brains in Marvel. BP plays second fiddle cause he is humble that is his problem.

Marvel considers 4 white american dudes the height of genius in their universe? No way, that couldn't be true. I. Am. So. Shocked. T'Challa is no Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or Bruce Banner because he doesn't beat his wife, create super villains on accident, turn himself into an uncontrollable monster, or behave like a professional womanizer.

BP has proven his superiority over Iron Man a number of times and invents things alongside Reed. Pym and Bruce's most well known breakthroughs resulted in two of the most destructive forces on Marvel Earth, Ultron and Hulk respectively. Way to go guys. BP has science and magic wrapped around his finger, can travel space, time, and dimensions, and can mess with the X-gene just to have something to threaten mutants with.

@Buckshot said:

@CadenceV2 said:

Cool... yet he is no Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or Bruce Banner who are considered the 4 top Good Guys in brains in Marvel. BP plays second fiddle cause he is humble that is his problem.

Marvel considers 4 white guys the height of genius in their universe? No way, that couldn't be true. I. Am. So. Shocked. T'Challa is no Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or Bruce Banner because he doesn't beat his wife, create super villains on accident, turn himself into an uncontrollable monster, or behave like a professional womanizer.

BP has proven his superiority over Iron Man a number of times and invents things alongside Reed. Pym and Bruce's most well known breakthroughs resulted in two of the most destructive forces on Marvel Earth, Ultron and Hulk respectively. Way to go guys. BP has science and magic wrapped around his finger, can travel space, time, and dimensions, and can mess with the X-gene just to have something to threaten mutants with.

This is true.

@CadenceV2 said:

This is true.

Now I actually am shocked. I didn't expect that to be the end of it.

@CadenceV2 said:

@Buckshot said:

@CadenceV2 said:

Cool... yet he is no Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or Bruce Banner who are considered the 4 top Good Guys in brains in Marvel. BP plays second fiddle cause he is humble that is his problem.

Marvel considers 4 white guys the height of genius in their universe? No way, that couldn't be true. I. Am. So. Shocked. T'Challa is no Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or Bruce Banner because he doesn't beat his wife, create super villains on accident, turn himself into an uncontrollable monster, or behave like a professional womanizer.

BP has proven his superiority over Iron Man a number of times and invents things alongside Reed. Pym and Bruce's most well known breakthroughs resulted in two of the most destructive forces on Marvel Earth, Ultron and Hulk respectively. Way to go guys. BP has science and magic wrapped around his finger, can travel space, time, and dimensions, and can mess with the X-gene just to have something to threaten mutants with.

This is true.

+2

Well if BP can make Iron Man armor and is fighting without it, how smart can he be?

Amodeus Cho should be in here. He is smarter than Parker and Ock and maybe BP.

I would put Beast at #4 over Banner at #5.

@CadenceV2 said:

@Buckshot said:

Black Panther isn't insulted that you consider him second tier because he's too humble, so I'll be prideful and insulted on his behalf. BP created the Quinjet that the "tier 1" guys fly around in, he invented the iphone in '98, he's outfought "tier 1" Iron Man when IM was prepped specifically to bring him down, he made the same armor as Doom when he was 3 years younger and told Iron Man he could make one of his armors if he ever felt like it. He mixes magic and science and even if someone came up with something better than him, he has tech that shuts down other tech with the push of a button.

Cool... yet he is no Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or Bruce Banner who are considered the 4 top Good Guys in brains in Marvel. BP plays second fiddle cause he is humble that is his problem.

I think most people would put T'Challa way ahead of Bruce.

@robertloucksjr said:

Well if BP can make Iron Man armor and is fighting without it, how smart can he be?

Him not using a suit has nothing to do with intelligence. He doesn't need it and it's not his style.

@Shawnbaby said:

I think most people would put T'Challa way ahead of Bruce.

I think Bruce's ability to showcase his brilliance has been limited by his chronic Hulk problem. He got to show off once he and Hulk partnered up after WWH (and that was great) and his current series seems like it will be an even better showcase of what he can do when he's not preoccupied with Hulk or hiding from everyone. I like him and the idea of Bruce coming into his own and I'm looking forward to being wowed.

BP is way smarter than everyone here. He's less risky and just as intelligent as all of the masterminds in the Illuminati. He's not QUITE the prep beast the Doom, Strange, and Reed can be, but he's equal to or better than Iron Man and Pym, and better than Pym at prep.

@Buckshot said:

@robertloucksjr said:

Well if BP can make Iron Man armor and is fighting without it, how smart can he be?

Him not using a suit has nothing to do with intelligence. He doesn't need it and it's not his style.

@Shawnbaby said:

I think most people would put T'Challa way ahead of Bruce.

I think Bruce's ability to showcase his brilliance has been limited by his chronic Hulk problem. He got to show off once he and Hulk partnered up after WWH (and that was great) and his current series seems like it will be an even better showcase of what he can do when he's not preoccupied with Hulk or hiding from everyone. I like him and the idea of Bruce coming into his own and I'm looking forward to being wowed.

I'm not saying I don't believe Bruce is smart...I'm just saying I believe T'challa is in a league ahead of him. He's got more feats in more varied intellectual areas of expertise. Bruce is brilliant...but his genius is more specialized.

@Shawnbaby: I think I would have agreed before we started seeing what Bruce does when Hulk isn't an issue, and since that's going to be what his series now is about, I feel like holding off all judgement on his intelligence for a while, but that's just me. And actually, I think Bruce may be something we don't see very often, a quick brain. A lot of these people are "______ wins with prep" types, but I feel like Bruce shines brighter than the rest of them in tight spots, and I'm getting that mostly from my memories of his post-WWH exploits. Amadeus Cho is another guy like that even though his abilities border on superpower so some might discount what he can pull off quickly.

@Buckshot said:

@CadenceV2 said:

Cool... yet he is no Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or Bruce Banner who are considered the 4 top Good Guys in brains in Marvel. BP plays second fiddle cause he is humble that is his problem.

Marvel considers 4 white american dudes the height of genius in their universe? No way, that couldn't be true. I. Am. So. Shocked. T'Challa is no Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or Bruce Banner because he doesn't beat his wife, create super villains on accident, turn himself into an uncontrollable monster, or behave like a professional womanizer.

BP has proven his superiority over Iron Man a number of times and invents things alongside Reed. Pym and Bruce's most well known breakthroughs resulted in two of the most destructive forces on Marvel Earth, Ultron and Hulk respectively. Way to go guys. BP has science and magic wrapped around his finger, can travel space, time, and dimensions, and can mess with the X-gene just to have something to threaten mutants with.

You lost me when you implied it's a racial issue.

And one of the reasons T'Challa isn't considered on par with the others is because some of his best feats were ripoffs; specifically he ripped of Dr. Doom's tech at one point to try and recreate a Doom feat. He developed a serum to use against Mutants; but the Hope Serum was develop long before that. He also uses magic to combine with science; and using magic instead of developing technology isn't generally considered massive intelligence. It's generally more intellectually impressive when you develop technology rather than simply relying on magic.

That's not to say he isn't intelligent, or that he isn't on par with the others; but acting like it's simply racism is baseless.

@rpottage said:

You lost me when you implied it's a racial issue.

And one of the reasons T'Challa isn't considered on par with the others is because some of his best feats were ripoffs; specifically he ripped of Dr. Doom's tech at one point to try and recreate a Doom feat. He developed a serum to use against Mutants; but the Hope Serum was develop long before that. He also uses magic to combine with science; and using magic instead of developing technology isn't generally considered massive intelligence. It's generally more intellectually impressive when you develop technology rather than simply relying on magic.

That's not to say he isn't intelligent, or that he isn't on par with the others; but acting like it's simply racism is baseless.

You say some of his best feats were ripoffs, but there's really only one and I wouldn't consider it his best. Also, him using existing technology already built to do precisely what he plans to do isn't a blow to his intelligence either. You don't need to reinvent the car every time you want to go somewhere. The reuse may not be a credit to his intelligence, but being practical isn't a bad thing and it doesn't lessen his own feats. Him creating a technological jungle, applications of vibranium, multipurpose energy daggers, kimoyo cards, etc, are his intelligence. Him outsmarting Iron Man multiple times are displays of his own intelligence over one of the people regularly considered at the top of the intellectual totem pole. Him being able to create armors rivaling the two most well known armor users on the planet are, again, his own intelligence being shown as directly comparable to the established top dogs. Him being regularly portrayed as Reed's equal and possibly closest friend outside of the FF is also a credit to him. BP making something to suppress the x-gene isn't lessened just because someone else did it elsewhere, especially when he improvised it when he was on his "low tech" kick. If anything, him improvising something when he was in his low tech phase is more impressive than others doing the same thing with far more time and technology. He doesn't rely on magic. Him incorporating magic in his science to create new fields of science and new technology based on that isn't him taking a shortcut and it's no less impressive than making a new gadget. Heck, the only other person to do something like that (that's well known at least) is Doom and it is seen as impressive when he reconciles these two, generally at-odds fields and creates something with that fusion. BP has been, for most of his career, the head of nation, and a very isolated one at that, and so doesn't do a lot of the adventuring that others do and the creating that comes with those kinds of things, but even still, his displays of intelligence measure up with those that are best recognized for theirs.

I don't think it's simply a race thing, but I'm not surprised that the prominent faces of Marvel are white.

@Buckshot said:

@rpottage said:

You lost me when you implied it's a racial issue.

And one of the reasons T'Challa isn't considered on par with the others is because some of his best feats were ripoffs; specifically he ripped of Dr. Doom's tech at one point to try and recreate a Doom feat. He developed a serum to use against Mutants; but the Hope Serum was develop long before that. He also uses magic to combine with science; and using magic instead of developing technology isn't generally considered massive intelligence. It's generally more intellectually impressive when you develop technology rather than simply relying on magic.

That's not to say he isn't intelligent, or that he isn't on par with the others; but acting like it's simply racism is baseless.

You say some of his best feats were ripoffs, but there's really only one and I wouldn't consider it his best. Also, him using existing technology already built to do precisely what he plans to do isn't a blow to his intelligence either. You don't need to reinvent the car every time you want to go somewhere. The reuse may not be a credit to his intelligence, but being practical isn't a bad thing and it doesn't lessen his own feats. Him creating a technological jungle, applications of vibranium, multipurpose energy daggers, kimoyo cards, etc, are his intelligence. Him outsmarting Iron Man multiple times are displays of his own intelligence over one of the people regularly considered at the top of the intellectual totem pole. Him being able to create armors rivaling the two most well known armor users on the planet are, again, his own intelligence being shown as directly comparable to the established top dogs. Him being regularly portrayed as Reed's equal and possibly closest friend outside of the FF is also a credit to him. BP making something to suppress the x-gene isn't lessened just because someone else did it elsewhere, especially when he improvised it when he was on his "low tech" kick. If anything, him improvising something when he was in his low tech phase is more impressive than others doing the same thing with far more time and technology. He doesn't rely on magic. Him incorporating magic in his science to create new fields of science and new technology based on that isn't him taking a shortcut and it's no less impressive than making a new gadget. Heck, the only other person to do something like that (that's well known at least) is Doom and it is seen as impressive when he reconciles these two, generally at-odds fields and creates something with that fusion. BP has been, for most of his career, the head of nation, and a very isolated one at that, and so doesn't do a lot of the adventuring that others do and the creating that comes with those kinds of things, but even still, his displays of intelligence measure up with those that are best recognized for theirs.

I don't think it's simply a race thing, but I'm not surprised that the prominent faces of Marvel are white.

No, it's not. Generally it's more intelligent to use existing technology to achieve a goal rather than design a completely new technoogy for the same thing. It's simpy that it doesn't look as good on paper.

He has done a lot and created a lot of hi-tech things, and he's quite smart. But the reason he's generally not seen as top-tier is quite simply that he doesn't really do as much. Yes, his feats are impressive and in truth he could probably do many of the things the others do; but he doesn't. (Typically because he either doesn't need to, or finds some other simpler way).

Creating a tech jungle, or outsmarting people just aren't as visually appealing as creating 50+ Ironman suits.

The other problem is that, in general, Marvel's prep seems to be ridiculous; at least to me. I mean T'Challa is great at prep and his prep plans seem to be better than anything the top-tier good guys come up with; at least in the sense of general prep. He has a lot of plans prepped out well in advance when he really doesn't need to or has to indication of any need at the time (For instance I remember at one point he had plans for defending his country against Galactus just in case Galactus ever happened to show up there). But Doom prep's all the time, and the Marvel prep is just insane; it doesn't hold the same weight as DC prep. In DC, prep is almost the measure of intelligence (it's one of the reasons why Batman is considered so intelligent), but in Marvel it's more about who builds what and how many of them; so T'Challa's ability to prep isn't generally considered.

So yeah, he's definitely top-tier for Marvel intelligence; but he's just not flashy enough to really get the attention for it.

@rpottage: I know it's a visibility/popularity thing (which is affected by race, as well as other things) which causes him to not be seen as top tier, but that's why when we talk about it in threads my standard of measure isn't popularity or visibility, but where his past displays suggest he would be if popularity were taken out of the picture.

@Buckshot said:

@rpottage: I know it's a visibility/popularity thing (which is affected by race, as well as other things) which causes him to not be seen as top tier, but that's why when we talk about it in threads my standard of measure isn't popularity or visibility, but where his past displays suggest he would be if popularity were taken out of the picture.

I get that; I'm just saying I don't think it's a racial thing.

Though I will admit that Marvel seem to kind of suck at Black Superheroes.

Ultimately though; I think it's more the nature of the character than anything else.

Plus I think the fact that he's black pales in comparison to the fact that he's a foreigner. Just look at the X-Men series; they gloss over his Canadian origin and have him fighting in the Civil war and Vietnam (forget Department H or the Canadian military). It's similar to how people often forget (or actively deny) Deadpool being a Canadian, and why Superman (Who was invisioned and created by a Canadia) is an American immigrant. And definitely why the outrage when Superman denounced his American citizenship in an attempt to ease tensions without other countries and avoid seeming like an American Government Agent. Americans generally just want American Superheroes. I think if T'Challa was instead Jacob Morgan from downtown Detroit he'd come off much better regardless of his skin colour; but an extremely intelligent African Head of State? That's the part.

But again, his character is also a problem for that; he's modest, smart, and not flashy. Doesn't go well with the Marvel model of more outrageously insane hi-tech equipment

@rpottage: I recognize the American aspect of it (which is why I edited my original post to include that right after I made it), but I think race is definitely an issue. Doom is the leader of another nation and that is never forgotten, yet he's quite often considered the smartest villain on the planet, if not just the smartest character full stop. Marvel, as you put it, sucking at black characters, leads to them not being used to their fullest and their strengths not being recognized. I would attribute T'Challa's lack of exposure to that more than his character. His essential character isn't more modest or subdued than every other recognized genius and the impressive tech is also established as part of him. Reed Richards is an equally toned down character (more so than BP actually). He's no Tony Stark, he himself is not flashy (in fact, I'd consider him the most boring person on his team), but that's never going to get in the way of how he is perceived. As for BP fitting the "outrageously insane hi-tech equipment" model of displaying intelligence, that is something T'Challa could easily display (and has displayed before, I mean he's gone to war with airships and panther voltrons behind him). Marvel has determined that Wakanda is one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world. What limits that from being shown isn't the character since that's been made a part of his character, it's something else. The nature of the character doesn't prevent him from standing out, this is a character that did not shy away from a fist fight with Mephisto or walking up to Doom in his castle and starting something, and has even picked fights with close friends like Iron Man. I joked about him being humble before, but the man has an ego on him that has been displayed many times since his very introduction. The nature of the character does not preclude him from extravagant displays of tech either, and his nationality actually suggests it would be there. Even his nationality is not a reason to limit his prominence when Doom can reach the heights of recognition he has. I'm not sure how you can say Americans want to see American characters but not see how a predominantly white male industry would have white males as their most visible characters.

@Buckshot said:

@CadenceV2 said:

This is true.

Now I actually am shocked. I didn't expect that to be the end of it.

It made sense to me.

@Buckshot said:

@rpottage: I recognize the American aspect of it (which is why I edited my original post to include that right after I made it), but I think race is definitely an issue. Doom is the leader of another nation and that is never forgotten, yet he's quite often considered the smartest villain on the planet, if not just the smartest character full stop. Marvel, as you put it, sucking at black characters, leads to them not being used to their fullest and their strengths not being recognized. I would attribute T'Challa's lack of exposure to that more than his character. His essential character isn't more modest or subdued than every other recognized genius and the impressive tech is also established as part of him. Reed Richards is an equally toned down character (more so than BP actually). He's no Tony Stark, he himself is not flashy (in fact, I'd consider him the most boring person on his team), but that's never going to get in the way of how he is perceived. As for BP fitting the "outrageously insane hi-tech equipment" model of displaying intelligence, that is something T'Challa could easily display (and has displayed before, I mean he's gone to war with airships and panther voltrons behind him). Marvel has determined that Wakanda is one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world. What limits that from being shown isn't the character since that's been made a part of his character, it's something else. The nature of the character doesn't prevent him from standing out, this is a character that did not shy away from a fist fight with Mephisto or walking up to Doom in his castle and starting something, and has even picked fights with close friends like Iron Man. I joked about him being humble before, but the man has an ego on him that has been displayed many times since his very introduction. The nature of the character does not preclude him from extravagant displays of tech either, and his nationality actually suggests it would be there. Even his nationality is not a reason to limit his prominence when Doom can reach the heights of recognition he has. I'm not sure how you can say Americans want to see American characters but not see how a predominantly white male industry would have white males as their most visible characters.

The thing is it is actually forgotten. Just look at the Fantastic Four movies; Doom wasn't the leader of his own nation. He was an American CEO who went to school with Reed.

See, here's the thing. If it were simply about race; I don't think Spawn, Blade, Static, John Stewart, Cyborg, or the new Aqualad would be so popular.

Just look at the Ironman Movies; they had Warmachine in the second one in a central role and that's supposed to be reprised in the third movie. But he's an American Hero who happens to be black. If you can sell a Black President, you can sell a Black Superhero; you just can't sell a foreign one of either. People will accept them if they're black, but they won't accept Africans.

I certainly don't think it's an industry thing; since the industry includes Spawn (The flagship of his comicbook universe), and DC (Which has tons of Black Superheroes, many of which are well known).

@rpottage said:

The thing is it is actually forgotten. Just look at the Fantastic Four movies; Doom wasn't the leader of his own nation. He was an American CEO who went to school with Reed.

See, here's the thing. If it were simply about race; I don't think Spawn, Blade, Static, John Stewart, Cyborg, or the new Aqualad would be so popular.

Just look at the Ironman Movies; they had Warmachine in the second one in a central role and that's supposed to be reprised in the third movie. But he's an American Hero who happens to be black. If you can sell a Black President, you can sell a Black Superhero; you just can't sell a foreign one of either. People will accept them if they're black, but they won't accept Africans.

I certainly don't think it's an industry thing; since the industry includes Spawn (The flagship of his comicbook universe), and DC (Which has tons of Black Superheroes, many of which are well known).

Let's go through your list before I get to why I don't think it's all that relevant. John Stewart, Cyborg, and Aqualad are DC (so don't apply to our Marvel conversation) but beyond that, they're not really that popular. Static is great, but he's from Milestone comics so it's not like he has a ton of white competition from other characters or fans looking for a white hero. Spawn is great too, but notice he's not identified primarily as a black character. He is one, no doubt about that, but that's not immediately apparent or incredibly relevant most of the time. Blade's really the best you've got but he's still not considered on the level of most characters in his class. Black Panther has every credential you could ask for to be recognized as a top tier brain, but he isn't, and one of the things I attribute that to is his race and how that affects his presentation and priority in Marvel (and that's not purely on the company's shoulder's mind you, fans play a part too).

I'm not talking about movies (though wouldn't you know it, all the main Marvel movies star white guys). Nothing in this thread is about movies. To make it about movies is to avoid the point of representation in comics, which are the primary medium, and more specifically in Marvel. You can divert and try and talk about movies, or divert and try to talk about other companies, but it's just that, diversion because you can't escape reality. In comics, Marvel is dominated by white males. Denial of this is impossible and so justification, trivialization, and hand-waving are really all that can be attempted. In comics, Doom and Latveria are always connected, so your point about under-appreciated genius being a nationalist thing is on shaky ground, as is your point about it being a character thing since T'Challa's character, background, and history support the kinds of displays of technological prowess that would put him on the top tier. I don't deny these things may play a role, but it seems you do deny that race likely plays a large one as well.

@Buckshot said:

@rpottage said:

The thing is it is actually forgotten. Just look at the Fantastic Four movies; Doom wasn't the leader of his own nation. He was an American CEO who went to school with Reed.

See, here's the thing. If it were simply about race; I don't think Spawn, Blade, Static, John Stewart, Cyborg, or the new Aqualad would be so popular.

Just look at the Ironman Movies; they had Warmachine in the second one in a central role and that's supposed to be reprised in the third movie. But he's an American Hero who happens to be black. If you can sell a Black President, you can sell a Black Superhero; you just can't sell a foreign one of either. People will accept them if they're black, but they won't accept Africans.

I certainly don't think it's an industry thing; since the industry includes Spawn (The flagship of his comicbook universe), and DC (Which has tons of Black Superheroes, many of which are well known).

Let's go through your list before I get to why I don't think it's all that relevant. John Stewart, Cyborg, and Aqualad are DC (so don't apply to our Marvel conversation) but beyond that, they're not really that popular. Static is great, but he's from Milestone comics so it's not like he has a ton of white competition from other characters or fans looking for a white hero. Spawn is great too, but notice he's not identified primarily as a black character. He is one, no doubt about that, but that's not immediately apparent or incredibly relevant most of the time. Blade's really the best you've got but he's still not considered on the level of most characters in his class. Black Panther has every credential you could ask for to be recognized as a top tier brain, but he isn't, and one of the things I attribute that to is his race and how that affects his presentation and priority in Marvel (and that's not purely on the company's shoulder's mind you, fans play a part too).

I'm not talking about movies (though wouldn't you know it, all the main Marvel movies star white guys). Nothing in this thread is about movies. To make it about movies is to avoid the point of representation in comics, which are the primary medium, and more specifically in Marvel. You can divert and try and talk about movies, or divert and try to talk about other companies, but it's just that, diversion because you can't escape reality. In comics, Marvel is dominated by white males. Denial of this is impossible and so justification, trivialization, and hand-waving are really all that can be attempted. In comics, Doom and Latveria are always connected, so your point about under-appreciated genius being a nationalist thing is on shaky ground, as is your point about it being a character thing since T'Challa's character, background, and history support the kinds of displays of technological prowess that would put him on the top tier. I don't deny these things may play a role, but it seems you do deny that race likely plays a large one as well.

No, see here's you problem; in order to argue about T'Challa not being considered top-tier you have to argue from an outside perspective. In the comics T'Challa is recognized as among the smartest. You yourself pointed out he's outsmarted Ironman in the comics. So in comics he is considered top-tier.

But even if he wasn't; then you can't claim it's because of race since it simply wouldn't be his character to be top-tier. Any evidence you would use would be worthless since the comics would be stating that he's not top-tier.

You can't really say he's top-tier if he's not top-tier in the comics; and if he is top-tier in the comics then you can't say he's not represented as top-tier because of Marvel (since they would be the ones representing him as such in the comics).

Actually Static is DC; Milestone was always DC and they actually merged in-comic universes years ago.

And it wasn't diversion. It's disingenious to suggest I was trying to avoid or divert the discussion when you said "predominantly white male industry". The industry isn't marvel comics Earth 616; the industry is the comicbook industry which includes other companies and includes the alternate univeres and mediums. Don't blame the industry, then act like you never said anything about the industry.

Ultimately it comes down to this: Either Marvel portrays him as top-tier or they don't; if they don't then he isn't, if they do then he is. But you can't argue that Marvel is wrong or racist or racially prejudice for not putting him as top-tier intelligence; then turn around and use Marvel evidence for him being top-tier intelligence. It doesn't work that way.

@rpottage: Black Panther is top tier in the comics. In our evaluation of the comics (not in the world of the comics), he's generally not considered top tier. That's the reason we have this thread. See what I'm saying? Reed knows Black Panther is a peer, but CadenceV2 did not. He is not perceived as such even though he is. That's what I'm getting at. The presentation of him to fans causes mismatch between what he's capable of and what he's seen as being capable of, and the amount and quality of that presentation is affected by his race. I'm not saying "Marvel is racist because they don't make Black Panther as impressive as Reed Richards". It's doesn't just stop at them making the characters. How the characters are showcased is just as important, and race (not only of the characters but also the creators) goes into what gets showcased, how, and how much.

Static being DC doesn't help your point. He was still from a universe that was not Marvel (which is what we're talking about) and from a universe that was primarily minority characters so there weren't many significant white characters in his world to steal the show and the comics weren't primarily directed at a white audience anyway. I stand by my statement that it's a predominantly white male industry and as a result its most popular characters are also white males, which is why even though your list of characters wasn't relevant to what I felt we were discussing (the relative prominence of a intelligent black character in Marvel) I still went over it to show that the black characters you came up with still don't really challenge the popularity of primarily white male characters.

Just for a laugh I googled "most popular comic characters" and went with the first link I saw. Took me to Empire's list. Now, I don't claim that this is the ultimate authority by any means, but you reach animals before you reach any black characters, and I mean well before you reach any black characters. The first black character is Spawn (the black character you can't tell is black) at number 50, technically 51 because Midnigher and Apollo share a spot, lagging behind multiple animals, monsters, and aliens. That you can act like race is a non-issue or be unaware that a predominantly white male industry produces and markets predominantly white male characters to a (presumably) predominantly white male audience, is a joke.

@Buckshot: I mostly agree with you...but I think Marvel has been pretty even-handed with how Black Panther has been presented..I'd say the fault lies more in with the readers than with the Publisher. Black Panther is typically presented as a strong and smart character that can stand with the top tier characters...he just doesn't get the coverage they do because he's not as popular. If BP were as popular as say, Wolverine, he'd be used a lot more than he is. I agree with you though, that his race does factor into his popularity. As you say, The readership is predominately made up of young white males. As a whole I'd say Marvel does a fairly good job presenting it's Black Characters to the public. Certainly a better job than they do with female characters.

@Shawnbaby: I see fault on both sides and I said as much a couple posts up, but really, who is responsible for making a product popular? Is it your responsibility to like a movie just because it exists, or is it on the shoulders of those making the movie and getting it out there to create a product that's impressive? And that's not to say Marvel hasn't done a lot (though, in the last few years, how many black characters aside from BP can you say have had starring roles in more than just one-shots or minis?), but obviously things aren't working to the degree they should be, and when things aren't working, you can't expect the consumer to fix the problem. If stories can be told about aliens and monsters and be compelling, why is it so hard for black people? I mean, Marvel co-president Louis D'Esposito said Guardians of the Galaxy, a movie in space with a talking raccoon was right up Marvel's alley but a movie with Black Panther would be too difficult because they'd have to create Wakanda from the ground up and bringing in new worlds is hard. WHAT? We can make Asgard but Wakanda is too difficult? Really. Or Brevoort coming out and saying "whenever your leads are white American males, you’ve got a better chance of reaching more people overall." I'm not saying he's wrong, but that he's right can be disheartening for a black reader. You say "If BP were as popular as Wolverine", but where does that ouroboros even start? Wolverine is in approximately 4,000 books this month. We've been pumped full of that character for years. Makes it easy for him to get popular (or for existing popularity to skyrocket) when he's everywhere.

@Buckshot: I agree it's disheartening...and maybe Marvel (and DC) should do more to increase the profile of their Minority Characters...but they can't force people to like Black Panther as much as they like Wolverine. All they can really do is present him as a consistently strong character and hope the readership embraces him. They don't put Wolverine in 4000 titles a month to skyrocket his popularity...they do it in hopes that some of his popularity will bleed onto those other titles. They are following the age old adage of "Give the people what they want".

@Buckshot: On that list you read how many of the characters above spawn were created before 1980's or maybe even 1985? Characters that been around forever and have a long history tend to have a better following. Early comic characters will be more popular due to this.

If you are wondering I picked 80-85's, because racism was just getting kind of under control at that time, but we could start at 1991 because of the Rodney king beating, so racism was still strong in early 90's.

Just stating that it takes time to build history on characters and the reason most popular are white is due to time, hey everyone grew up reading x-men, spiderman, superman, batman, FF, etc. At that time no black heroes were being written due to racism so it shouldn't be shocking that they aren't as popular.

Also, didn't marvel make spiderman, a key franchise character, black? I don't know if you can say they aren't trying.

@Buckshot said:

@rpottage: Black Panther is top tier in the comics. In our evaluation of the comics (not in the world of the comics), he's generally not considered top tier. That's the reason we have this thread. See what I'm saying? Reed knows Black Panther is a peer, but CadenceV2 did not. He is not perceived as such even though he is. That's what I'm getting at. The presentation of him to fans causes mismatch between what he's capable of and what he's seen as being capable of, and the amount and quality of that presentation is affected by his race. I'm not saying "Marvel is racist because they don't make Black Panther as impressive as Reed Richards". It's doesn't just stop at them making the characters. How the characters are showcased is just as important, and race (not only of the characters but also the creators) goes into what gets showcased, how, and how much.

Static being DC doesn't help your point. He was still from a universe that was not Marvel (which is what we're talking about) and from a universe that was primarily minority characters so there weren't many significant white characters in his world to steal the show and the comics weren't primarily directed at a white audience anyway. I stand by my statement that it's a predominantly white male industry and as a result its most popular characters are also white males, which is why even though your list of characters wasn't relevant to what I felt we were discussing (the relative prominence of a intelligent black character in Marvel) I still went over it to show that the black characters you came up with still don't really challenge the popularity of primarily white male characters.

Just for a laugh I googled "most popular comic characters" and went with the first link I saw. Took me to Empire's list. Now, I don't claim that this is the ultimate authority by any means, but you reach animals before you reach any black characters, and I mean well before you reach any black characters. The first black character is Spawn (the black character you can't tell is black) at number 50, technically 51 because Midnigher and Apollo share a spot, lagging behind multiple animals, monsters, and aliens. That you can act like race is a non-issue or be unaware that a predominantly white male industry produces and markets predominantly white male characters to a (presumably) predominantly white male audience, is a joke.

No, I get that; but you can't really say it's Marvel's fault he's not considered top-tier if they represent him as top-tier.

I was just pointing out Static is DC because you addressed DC and then Static seperately. And they are quite popular. I mean are they as popular as Superman and Batman? Not most of them; but that has nothing to do with their race. Batman and Superman are the archtypes of superheroes. Static, for example, was extremely popular; popular enough to get his own series; and did quite well. Of the other 8 DC shows aired on WB Kids only one other show ran longer; which was The Batman. And that's ignoring the extended cross overs in the JL tv show that Static did. And Static Shock's popularity is still strong, and was strong at the time. The only reason it didn't have more seasons was because it didn't have the funds; which was due to the lack of licensing deals. That was due, I believe, in no small part to the fact that the show ran during the time that Milestone was being incorporated into the main DC so giving the rights for such things was difficult. (Like how Smallville couldn't get the rights for Batman or Wonderwoman despite running for ten years and had to make due with an implied line by Chloe)

See, you go on about the "predominantely white male industry" yet claim my talking about the industry is diversionary; that's being disingenuous.

And yeah, the Empire list is horrible. I stopped when they put Dream at number 6.

http://comicbooks.about.com/od/characters/tp/topsuperhero.htm

http://my.spill.com/profiles/blogs/top-20-greatest-comic-book

http://www.themost10.com/famous-comic-book-superheroes/

Spawn tends to be top ten.

And that includes the characters who should't be included. Characters like Batman, Superman, Spiderman, and their main counterparts and supporting cast are of course going to be more popular. They were the first, they paved the way.

And the thing is, those lists are all popularity lists from people outside the comicbook industry. It's about who's the most recognizable; and it tends to be people who have had their own big movies and tv shows. And the Black Superheroes have had their own, but people don't always consider vampire hunters and demon killers to be superheroes (hence Buffy, Spike, and Angel aren't on those lists either); which typically rules them out. And the big name truly obvious black superheroes don't get their own simply because Marvel wants to capitalize on the most well known superheroes (hence no ant-man, wasp, or black panther in the Avengers), and DC is too scared to go all out (they release new superhero movies very rarely) and instead they either add black superheroes into the shows they're already making or change characters to be black. It strikes me as funny to say the industry is somehow racist when DC is constantly doing that. Pete Ross was suddenly black, so is Oliver's body guard, and the Martian Manhunter, and Cyborg is suddenly Batman's secret weapon. Aqualad is now black, Rocket's a member of Young Justice with Icon a member of the League. Jon Stewart is almost the DCAU Green Lantern Flag Ship. Vixen is somehow a major member of the League, Mal Duncan is apparently a major part of Young Justice. Amanda Waller is always a major part of the DC universe. Heck the Teen Titans had one white hero. Five main heroes, and only one was white. One was black, one was green, one was orange, and one was grey (no idea why she was grey since in the comics she`s typically white or red, but they went with grey).

So the ``industry`` thing doesn`t really hold.

And Marvel`s issue is what sells, and what sells are well known heroes. X-men had storm as a central figure, War Machine was huge with Ironman, the animated shows all seem to have Black Panther in a central role, and th movie had Ultimate Fury instead of regular fury. And in the comics Storm has been shown as one of the few Omega-level mutants, Black Panther has been shown to have great intellect (As you pointed out) Blade is not only powerful in the comics and something unique (day walker) but he was given three movies, a tv series, and part of the Marvel Anime project where he had equal billing with the others. Bishop is not only powerful but was huge in the early 90`s X-men show; Spyke was huge and created specifically for the X-men evolution show (with Storm in a central role there as well), even in the normal marvel verse Nick Fury has been replaced by his black son Nick Fury, and Luke Cage is all over the place both in comics and in the Animated Universe; always as quite powerful. Heck, Spiderman is dead practically everywhere, with his Ultimate Spiderman replacement being a black latino. There is only so much they can do.

Honestly, at some point you have to stop blaming the industry and the creators. Comic books aren`t popular; so the comic book characters that are popular are the characters that have had years of exposure; the X-Men, The Justice League, Superman, Batman, Spiderman, The Hulk, Thor, Captain America. Each one of them has been prominent in expanded media for decades. They were all on tv during or before the 60`s for example. They have exposure and have had exposure for decades.

That doesn't mean that the people in charge now are racist; it means that comic book are not popular so the only heroes that people know (and thus the only ones that make money) are the ones who are were around when people were racist.

So yeah; in comicbooks you have a hard time finding evidence to gripe about with Black Panther (since in the comics books is where they portray him as being so intelligent), and outside comicbooks you have hard time pinning that on the industry as it is not since they`re doing as much as they realistically can. You can blame society for being too racist up until around the 90`s (thus limiting the exposure of black superheroes), but that`s not the industry. It`s like blaming the industry for not making Aquaman cool enough; they`re doing all they can, but one bad show can ruin it all.

Black Panther is clearly the winner.  He's possibly only #2 to Richards.

@sandiego008 said:

@Buckshot: On that list you read how many of the characters above spawn were created before 1980's or maybe even 1985? Characters that been around forever and have a long history tend to have a better following. Early comic characters will be more popular due to this.

If you are wondering I picked 80-85's, because racism was just getting kind of under control at that time, but we could start at 1991 because of the Rodney king beating, so racism was still strong in early 90's.

Just stating that it takes time to build history on characters and the reason most popular are white is due to time, hey everyone grew up reading x-men, spiderman, superman, batman, FF, etc. At that time no black heroes were being written due to racism so it shouldn't be shocking that they aren't as popular.

Also, didn't marvel make spiderman, a key franchise character, black? I don't know if you can say they aren't trying.

I knew the date thing was going to be mentioned. When Midnighter, Apollo, and Scott Pilgrim are just some of the relatively newer characters on the list ahead of the lone black character, age of the characters is not the biggest factor. And first of all, did I say they weren't trying? I'm pretty sure I said the opposite. Why don't you go check. And second, not that I don't like Miles, but Marvel has a lot of black characters that could be used and given more than just minis and one-shots and a couple of them being more prominently displayed is a drop in the bucket.

@rpottage: What's disingenuous about stating what the industry is? Why don't you write me up a list of credited white creators and staff and credited black creators and staff and get back to me when the percentage of black creators is significantly higher than the 3.0% of last year. Or get at me when you can pretend it's not been explicitly stated that making white male leads is a priority. Yes, "the industry" covers a lot more than just Marvel comics, but I've made it clear what I'm primarily talking about (and Static and one or two other black characters being popular doesn't actually diminish what I'm saying and it's why I've been saying "predominantly white" and not "exclusively white") and you choose to focus on what I'm not. And good job Spawn for being the lone black character on lists of white characters (and more often than not, being the tail end) and looking about as black as Eddie Brock in a Venom suit. And you want to make Spawn seem better by saying there shouldn't be so many other white characters around him on these lists because they paved the way and shouldn't count (what?) but T'Challa was the first mainstream black superhero, so shouldn't he be there for being a first?

I was going to start countering your list with Warmachine falling out the back of his own series and not even being branded as Warmachine in it but as Iron Man 2.0 (way to get out from behind that shadow War Machine), but that's really not the point. (Though you're making me want to get on you for bringing Bishop like he's been anything but run through the mud over the last few years.) Yes, black characters have been used and to pretend I'm saying otherwise is to intentionally misread my posts, but playing a game of name dropping will not win you points when numerous white characters can be said to have done almost anything a black character has (except for give comic book movies a shot, that was all Blade and I never see enough recognition for that).

And all your white comics apologetics aside, you keep suggesting I'm calling people racist when I'm simply pointing out racial disparity and not any kind of purposeful, hate-fueled agenda. I've actually said the opposite. Talk about disingenuous... You'd rather talk about things I'm not and imply I'm calling people racists when I'm not. My fault, every possible attempt has been made by Marvel to foster racial equality in their comics and any disparity is purely a fault of the fans, myself included. Race isn't at all a factor when it comes to the prominence of portrayal of characters, I've been so blind. I don't understand the role of race in society.

I think it is sad Marvel doesn't have any top tier intelligent females. The only genius i.q. heroine I can think of is Kitty Pryde. Are there any others I am missing?

@ToO_RaW: You mean Lyja from Fantastic Five?

@ToO_RaW: Cool. I have not read that one.

@charlieboy said:

I think it is sad Marvel doesn't have any top tier intelligent females. The only genius i.q. heroine I can think of is Kitty Pryde. Are there any others I am missing?

Doesn't have any? You know Reed has a daughter whose intellect rivals,if not surpasses, his own, right?

@Buckshot: Right there is Valeria Richards. I just didn't think of her. Thanks.

@Lady_Liberty: We are actually discussing this in the off topic forum. Some others came up with a longer list of characters.

@Lady_Liberty said:

@Buckshot said:

@charlieboy said:

I think it is sad Marvel doesn't have any top tier intelligent females. The only genius i.q. heroine I can think of is Kitty Pryde. Are there any others I am missing?

Doesn't have any? You know Reed has a daughter whose intellect rivals,if not surpasses, his own, right?

That's actually pretty lame. Marvel is filled to the brim with genius characters and THAT is their female genius? Come on.

I guess at this point its a dead horse, but Marvel hasn't exactly filled me with admiration in the female character department.

I can understand wanting more, but I don't see what makes Valeria lame.

@Buckshot said:

@sandiego008 said:

@Buckshot: On that list you read how many of the characters above spawn were created before 1980's or maybe even 1985? Characters that been around forever and have a long history tend to have a better following. Early comic characters will be more popular due to this.

If you are wondering I picked 80-85's, because racism was just getting kind of under control at that time, but we could start at 1991 because of the Rodney king beating, so racism was still strong in early 90's.

Just stating that it takes time to build history on characters and the reason most popular are white is due to time, hey everyone grew up reading x-men, spiderman, superman, batman, FF, etc. At that time no black heroes were being written due to racism so it shouldn't be shocking that they aren't as popular.

Also, didn't marvel make spiderman, a key franchise character, black? I don't know if you can say they aren't trying.

I knew the date thing was going to be mentioned. When Midnighter, Apollo, and Scott Pilgrim are just some of the relatively newer characters on the list ahead of the lone black character, age of the characters is not the biggest factor. And first of all, did I say they weren't trying? I'm pretty sure I said the opposite. Why don't you go check. And second, not that I don't like Miles, but Marvel has a lot of black characters that could be used and given more than just minis and one-shots and a couple of them being more prominently displayed is a drop in the bucket.

@rpottage: What's disingenuous about stating what the industry is? Why don't you write me up a list of credited white creators and staff and credited black creators and staff and get back to me when the percentage of black creators is significantly higher than the 3.0% of last year. Or get at me when you can pretend it's not been explicitly stated that making white male leads is a priority. Yes, "the industry" covers a lot more than just Marvel comics, but I've made it clear what I'm primarily talking about (and Static and one or two other black characters being popular doesn't actually diminish what I'm saying and it's why I've been saying "predominantly white" and not "exclusively white") and you choose to focus on what I'm not. And good job Spawn for being the lone black character on lists of white characters (and more often than not, being the tail end) and looking about as black as Eddie Brock in a Venom suit. And you want to make Spawn seem better by saying there shouldn't be so many other white characters around him on these lists because they paved the way and shouldn't count (what?) but T'Challa was the first mainstream black superhero, so shouldn't he be there for being a first?

I was going to start countering your list with Warmachine falling out the back of his own series and not even being branded as Warmachine in it but as Iron Man 2.0 (way to get out from behind that shadow War Machine), but that's really not the point. (Though you're making me want to get on you for bringing Bishop like he's been anything but run through the mud over the last few years.) Yes, black characters have been used and to pretend I'm saying otherwise is to intentionally misread my posts, but playing a game of name dropping will not win you points when numerous white characters can be said to have done almost anything a black character has (except for give comic book movies a shot, that was all Blade and I never see enough recognition for that).

And all your white comics apologetics aside, you keep suggesting I'm calling people racist when I'm simply pointing out racial disparity and not any kind of purposeful, hate-fueled agenda. I've actually said the opposite. Talk about disingenuous... You'd rather talk about things I'm not and imply I'm calling people racists when I'm not. My fault, every possible attempt has been made by Marvel to foster racial equality in their comics and any disparity is purely a fault of the fans, myself included. Race isn't at all a factor when it comes to the prominence of portrayal of characters, I've been so blind. I don't understand the role of race in society.

It was disingenuous to make a statement about the industry and then turn around and say that I was avoiding the issue or diverting it when I addressed your statement about the industry.

No, you do not get to make claims about the industry and then say you've been clear who you're talking about in reference to which parts of the industry. Marvel =/= the industry.

No, what I'm saying is that you're either completely niave and ignorant, or you're just being foolish if you expect newer black superheroes to compete with the originals in terms of popularity. Yet that's exactly what you're doing with those lists. Batman and Superman are always number one, and it's not because of their race. So no, you shouldn't be using their popularity as a standard of measure.

No, T'Challa shouldn't be there for being a first because he's not. He may be one of the first Black Superheroes but he's a character in the mold of previous characters. He wasn't a brand new mold of character; he was similar to existing characters except black. Ironically when people don't care about skin colour; it's a two way thing.

Well if that's your start it's a bad start since War Machine WAS Ironman 2.0. He actually took the mantle of Iron Man from Tony Stark at about the time the movie was coming out. More importantly he was Ironman twice before becoming War Machine; so really you're griping about Marvel being good with continuity. That won't go over well since one of the big praises about Marvel movies tends to be their continuity when compared to DC.

So now you're pissed that black superheroes aren't shown doing things that white superheroes can't? And before you accuse me of misconstruing your post or putting words in your mouth, let me quote the exact line you said: "will not win you points when numerous white characters can be said to have done almost anything a black character has". You know, people who aren't racist try not to display one race as being better than others.

No, you actually implied that Marvel was being racist in your second post on the board. In fact you actually had to misquote the person to do it; changing it from people considering those four characters to be marvel's smart; to marvel considering those four people to be their smartest.

No, you pointed out racial-disparity while implying it was intentionally done by marvel. That's very different from simply pointing out racial-disparity. It's like when GOP candidates would point out the racial-disparity in the U.S. while implying it was because they're lazy; that gets a very different reaction then simply pointing out the racial disparity in the U.S.

You know, your sarcastic response falls short when I already stated that Marvel tends to suck at Black Characters. But you have two problems there. The first problem is that your implication was that it's intentional, and that it's the reason why T'Challa isn't considered Tier-1; and that didn't hold up since you tried to prove that by pointing out all the ways they did demonstrate him as Tier-1.

The second problem is that while they suck at black characters; that's not intentional and it's not because they're racist. The reason they suck at black characters is because the Marvel universe already has way too many characters so the newer ones can't get a chance to shine; and the older ones were used to break multiple ground so the big name marvel black superheroes (like Storm and T'Challa) also tend to be African.

And to point out what I'm talking about with what you were implying:

This was what you quoted: "who are considered the 4 top Good Guys in brains in marvel"

And this was your original response: "Marvel considers 4 white guys the height of genius in their universe?

No way, that couldn't be true. I. Am. So. Shocked."

Do you see the difference? The first was about who generally are considered. Yours was specifically about Marvel and specifically about them being white.

And in fact I pointed that out in my first response to you. And I said that acting like it's simply racism is baseless and do you remember your response? It wasn't that it's not racism, your respone was to highlight the word simply in your reply. Indicating not that you didn't think it was racism, but that you didn't think it was simply that. So to say now that I'm being disingenuous by suggesting you're calling people racist is actually insanely silly since you had the chance to correct me on that on post number 1 and you didn't. So if you don't think it's because of racism on the part of Marvel then it's your fault for implying that it was and your fault for not addressing that in the first place when I gave you the chance. That's your bag.