#151 Posted by ConvenientLie (644 posts) - - Show Bio

@mightyrearranger:

All that means is that DC telepaths don't have the ability to fight ghosts, Marvel telepaths on the other hand do.

Couldn't I just as easily theorize that Marvel ghosts don't have the ability to resist telepathy, while a ghost created by way of a mystical, Egyptian curse has said ability.

On another note, let's talk pseudo-science for a second here: It's pretty commonly accepted that "telepathy" is a concept that involves one character targeting another by way of their brain. A ghost is a purely intangible and spiritual presence. What writer had the brilliant idea of pitting a telepath against a presence whose actual brain sat decaying in the ground years ago? Granted, this is a fictional tale of fictional concepts, but it's still a showing that 100% violates it's own fictional rules.

======

great point

#152 Edited by gav (634 posts) - - Show Bio

Would any of the Marvel U characters mentioned even be able to touch Gentleman Ghost?

Is this a joke? James Craddock, the nemesis of Hawkman lol? Franklin is busy owning celestials, creating pocket universes and making Galactus his personal herald and Gentleman Ghost is going to be roadblock/challenge? Thanks for the laugh!

#153 Posted by ConvenientLie (644 posts) - - Show Bio

@gav said:
@mightyrearranger said:

Would any of the Marvel U characters mentioned even be able to touch Gentleman Ghost?

Is this a joke? James Craddock, the nemesis of Hawkman lol? Franklin is busy owning celestials, creating pocket universes and making Galactus his personal herald and Gentleman Ghost is going to be roadblock/challenge? Thanks for the laugh!

Elaine solos anyway so yea i guess gentleman ghost doesnt matter.

#154 Posted by gav (634 posts) - - Show Bio

Why does Elaine Belloc keep getting mentioned? She's not part of the main-line DC Universe, she was part of the Vertigo series, many of which have no interactions/relation to the traditional DC Universe. Just look at the story line here, Lucifer, YHWH, Lilith, Michael. This is an obvious graphic novel based on the Judeo-Christian universe, not one with Batman and Superman.

#155 Posted by mightyrearranger (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@gav: Franklin was actually the member of the Marvel U team that I had in mind with that post. I'm not terribly familiar with him, but considering his age would it be safe to assume he's a virgin? Were I his age and had the kind of powers he does, I'd be looking to score ALL the time, but maybe that's just me... >.>

If he's not, then I still don't see what any of that fun stuff is going to do to help him actually injure Craddock. There's a reason the "nemesis of Hawkman" has remained his nemesis since ancient Egypt without being caught (by either the Hawks or Batman). He has reality manipulation feats by the bucketload as well, he just mainly utilizes said powers for simple bank heists or jewel thefts.

All that being said, Jim obviously can't kill that entire team on his own, I fully understand that. Just an amusing aside that there's not much anyone can do to damage him either.

#156 Edited by ConvenientLie (644 posts) - - Show Bio

@gav said:

Why does Elaine Belloc keep getting mentioned? She's not part of the main-line DC Universe, she was part of the Vertigo series, many of which have no interactions/relation to the traditional DC Universe. Just look at the story line here, Lucifer, YHWH, Lilith, Michael. This is an obvious graphic novel based on the Judeo-Christian universe, not one with Batman and Superman.

ellain is DC. and she fits the paramaters set in the OP. Shes allowed.

#157 Posted by mightyrearranger (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@convenientlie: Elaine's pretty tangential, but maybe...

If Doc Destiny has his full-fledged Dream Stone powers back in the New 52, it stands to reason that the Vertigo-verse is still pretty intact.

Professor Zoom, Mordred, and Per Degaton make things more interesting too.

#158 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio

@convenientlie said:

@mightyrearranger:

All that means is that DC telepaths don't have the ability to fight ghosts, Marvel telepaths on the other hand do.

Couldn't I just as easily theorize that Marvel ghosts don't have the ability to resist telepathy, while a ghost created by way of a mystical, Egyptian curse has said ability.

On another note, let's talk pseudo-science for a second here: It's pretty commonly accepted that "telepathy" is a concept that involves one character targeting another by way of their brain. A ghost is a purely intangible and spiritual presence. What writer had the brilliant idea of pitting a telepath against a presence whose actual brain sat decaying in the ground years ago? Granted, this is a fictional tale of fictional concepts, but it's still a showing that 100% violates it's own fictional rules.

======

great point

Unless said ghost is specifically given said ability I wouldn't speculate.

That is not how telepathy works. Delve into the paranormal sciences of the real world and you will see that telepathy does not work because the of brain, it works due to consciousness which in the case of the disembodied has nothing to do with the brain, as there is no brain involved in those instances. You will find several instances of ghosts, angels, demons and gods using telepathy to communicate with humans, with no physical brain to speak of.

#159 Posted by ConvenientLie (644 posts) - - Show Bio

@convenientlie: Elaine's pretty tangential, but maybe...

If Doc Destiny has his full-fledged Dream Stone powers back in the New 52, it stands to reason that the Vertigo-verse is still pretty intact.

Professor Zoom, Mordred, and Per Degaton make things more interesting too.

PLUS Max Faraday, Jenny Quantum, Phantom Stranger, Black Alice, Ellaine, Timothy Hunter and Mordru. Elain wrecks this by herself. the rest are just icing on the cake

#160 Edited by HeraldofGanthet (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@gav: Is this a joke? James Craddock, the nemesis of Hawkman lol? Franklin is busy owning celestials, creating pocket universes and making Galactus his personal herald and Gentleman Ghost is going to be roadblock/challenge? Thanks for the laugh!

Not to nitpick but 2 things have got to be clarified here:

  • Gentleman Ghost has a feud/grudge with the Hawks due to both their ability to cheat death (something he didn't/couldn't do) and their Nth Metal weapons, which were far more effective against him than he ever thought solid weapons could be. And..
  • Gentleman Ghost is much, much more than a Hawkman villain, he's been a villain of Alan Scott and the entire JSA going back to the Golden Age of Comics. He's proven powerful enough to render powerful reality warpers comatose like he did to Alan Scott back during the "Identity Crisis".

With that cleared up, I think that @mightyrearranger was simply trying to get a "head count" for the DC side of this conflict since the Marvel Comics head count is clearly spelled out in the OP. He was further asking who on their (Marvel's) side had the tools/skillset necessary to cause him any injury at all due to the VERY limited ways he's proven to be vulnerable these past 60+ years. Not that Craddock was going to slapbox with Franklin Richards, due to Richards not being the only person on his team.

#161 Edited by mightyrearranger (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: I can understand that reasoning. My apologies if my post earlier came across as patronizing in any way.

I do have to wonder though, if the Marvel Universe telepathy works in this way, why is Klaw immune to it? Has that ever been addressed? He's a sound-form guy, but he still has feelings and desires to tap into, no?

In the DC universe, it's been established on a few occasions that telepathy does affect the brain of it's target (spiritual interaction is totally separate, hence the importance of the Shadowpact members and other supernatural heroes). I believe it was Batman (or maybe J'onn himself) who made a remark about Plastic Man being able to resist telepathy because his "brain" was no longer a legitimate, solid brain. And again, that's where this battle is taking place...

#162 Edited by mightyrearranger (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@mightyrearranger said:

@convenientlie: Elaine's pretty tangential, but maybe...

If Doc Destiny has his full-fledged Dream Stone powers back in the New 52, it stands to reason that the Vertigo-verse is still pretty intact.

Professor Zoom, Mordred, and Per Degaton make things more interesting too.

PLUS Max Faraday, Jenny Quantum, Phantom Stranger, Black Alice, Ellaine, Timothy Hunter and Mordru. Elain wrecks this by herself. the rest are just icing on the cake

Oops, yeah. I meant Mordru. Mordred was like, one of the Vertigo fates or something like that, haha.

#163 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: That is not how telepathy works. Delve into the paranormal sciences of the real world and you will see that telepathy does not work because the of brain, it works due to consciousness which in the case of the disembodied has nothing to do with the brain, as there is no brain involved in those instances. You will find several instances of ghosts, angels, demons and gods using telepathy to communicate with humans, with no physical brain to speak of.

We agree on this. And to answer your earlier assertion about DC telepaths, from Classic to current Dr. Fate, Saturn Girl, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, Maxima, Brainwaves Sr. and Jr., Alan Scott, Jemm, and on, and on, and on PLENTY of DC telepaths have engaged in and won TP battles on the Astral Plane. It's just this particular spirit, this Gentleman Ghost, has shown himself for many decades to be all but immune to even the strongest telepathic invasions. His weaknesses have never had anything to do with psionics, instead they have centered around the pure, the Noble (as in Royalty), and Nth Metal, which is a bane to all magic.

#164 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: I can understand that reasoning. My apologies if my post earlier came across as patronizing in any way.

I do have to wonder though, if the Marvel Universe telepathy works in this way, why is Klaw immune to it? Has that ever been addressed?

In the DC universe, it's been established on a few occasions that telepathy does affect the brain of it's target (spiritual interaction is totally separate, hence the importance of the Shadowpact members and other supernatural heroes). I believe it was Batman (or maybe J'onn himself) who made a remark about Plastic Man being able to resist telepathy because his "brain" was no longer a legitimate, solid brain. And again, that's where this battle is taking place...

No need to apologize you being patronizing never crossed my mind.

Telepathy can affect the brain by way of the mind/body connetcion, but for the most part in both univeses and others the mind has more esoteric qualities than the brain. Klaw and Plastic Man or anybody else that can affect their own brains can resist telepathy because of the connection between the mind and the brain, but ghosts are nothing more than the consciousness/minds of once living beings therefore the rules apply unless said ghost has certain abilities that keep them protected.

IMO telepathy is more limited in DC due to them being more focused on physical things, Batman is not a telepath so I wouldn't actually take what he says as gospel and MM agreeing (IMO) shows his limited view of what telepathy really is. Marvel telepaths have shown rather consitently that you don't need a brain to have telepathy or be affected by it, Shadowking, Morgan LeFay, Emma Frost, Iceman, Rockslide, Nate Grey, Hydroman, Sandman, and Onslaught all prove this. They have all been disembodied and still exist as consciousness that can exsist without an acutal brain.

#165 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: That is not how telepathy works. Delve into the paranormal sciences of the real world and you will see that telepathy does not work because the of brain, it works due to consciousness which in the case of the disembodied has nothing to do with the brain, as there is no brain involved in those instances. You will find several instances of ghosts, angels, demons and gods using telepathy to communicate with humans, with no physical brain to speak of.

We agree on this. And to answer your earlier assertion about DC telepaths, from Classic to current Dr. Fate, Saturn Girl, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, Maxima, Brainwaves Sr. and Jr., Alan Scott, Jemm, and on, and on, and on PLENTY of DC telepaths have engaged in and won TP battles on the Astral Plane. It's just this particular spirit, this Gentleman Ghost, has shown himself for many decades to be all but immune to even the strongest telepathic invasions. His weaknesses have never had anything to do with psionics, instead they have centered around the pure, the Noble (as in Royalty), and Nth Metal, which is a bane to all magic.

I think my saying telepaths can fight ghosts is being seen as telepathy as a power being used like it's used against living beings. Telepathy is used to engage in battle, there is no invasion of the mind there is direct conflict between two astral bodies if you will. Marvel telepaths (Xmen in general) are very skilled in astral combat and the more powerful the telepath the more power they can draw from the astral plane to help them fight, you are basically a reality warper on the astral plane in Marvel at least, and the more powerful you are in the real world the more powerful you are on the astral plane. So once again this is not some direct psionic attack it's a telepath using their psionic powers to basically become a ghost to fight a ghost.

#166 Edited by HeraldofGanthet (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: IMO telepathy is more limited in DC due to them being more focused on physical things, Batman is not a telepath so I wouldn't actually take what he says as gospel and MM agreeing (IMO) shows his limited view of what telepathy really is.

This isn't entirely true. What I mean is that Plastic Man really is a special case due to the fact that unlike a lot of other shapeshifters, his brain's topography is constantly in flux. It never, ever stops moving under any circumstances, and is similar to a soft ball of clay that's continually reshaping and reforming itself 24 hrs a day. It's not that it's impossible to read his mind, it's just so damn erratic in there that it's just physically unpleasant and unsettling for any telepath to venture in there.

#167 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: IMO telepathy is more limited in DC due to them being more focused on physical things, Batman is not a telepath so I wouldn't actually take what he says as gospel and MM agreeing (IMO) shows his limited view of what telepathy really is.

This isn't entirely true. What I mean is that Plastic Man really is a special case due to the fact that unlike a lot of other shapeshifters, his brain's topography is constantly in flux. It never, ever stops moving under any circumstances, and is similar to a soft ball of clay that's continually reshaping and reforming itself 24 hrs a day. It's not that it's impossible to read his mind, it's just so damn erratic in there that it's just physically unpleasant and unsettling for any telepath to venture in there.

I understand that, but in a battle what would be the point in trying to read his or anybody that is like him minds? Telepathic bolts don't work on the same principle as mind reading, when it comes to psi blasts he'd need shielding not just an ever morphing brain, at least he'd need that when facing a Marvel telepath.

#168 Edited by mightyrearranger (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: Yeah, I can agree with you on all points there. The way both universes can muddle their ideas of telepathy can get bizarre at times. For instance, I wonder why the examples you listed (eg: Sandman, Rockslide, Iceman) can be affected by said telepathy, but Klaw cannot. He can alter his physical form, but he's still a consciousness as Hydroman would be, correct?

The reason I used Gentleman Ghost as my example is that he's kind of a weird case. He's certainly the ghost he claims to be, yet doesn't exist in the confines of DC's astral plane either. I seem to recall easy TP resistance in a JSA issue, but I'll have to look for it. He does have the ability to track and sense spectral anomalies, but like I said, spectral and psychic worlds aren't always linked in the DCU.

#169 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: Yeah, I can agree with you on all points there. The way both universes can muddle their ideas of telepathy can get bizarre at times. For instance, I wonder why the examples you listed (eg: Sandman, Rockslide, Iceman) can be affected by said telepathy, but Klaw cannot. He can alter his physical form, but he's still a consciousness as Hydroman would be, correct?

The reason I used Gentleman Ghost as my example is that he's kind of a weird case. He's certainly the ghost he claims to be, yet doesn't exist in the confines of DC's astral plane either.

I think the thing with Klaw is that he is an energy being, and in old bios it was theroized that the others exist on the astral plane as a consciousness that operates the body, I was under the impression that Klaw was differnt in that respect.

#170 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: So once again this is not some direct psionic attack it's a telepath using their psionic powers to basically become a ghost to fight a ghost.

What we have here is a difference without a distinction. We both agree that telepathic combat involves two "spiritual bodies" on/in the Astral Plane. We both agree that the more skilled you are in Astral Combat, the more you can use that realm to your advantage in the conflict. Gentleman Ghost knows this too. Powerful telepaths have tried to engage him in Astral Combat before (as they had done to other spirits before successfully), but to no avail. He never takes the "bait" so to speak. He's only been banished by trying to harm virgins (like Stargirl and Jakeem Thunder), Nobles (like Aquaman), the pure of heart (like Captain Marvel), and Nth Metal weapons (for the obvious reasons). I don't misunderstand one word you've said, mon ami. It's just that this particular Ghost has been a pain in the ass to telepaths going back as far as WWII. Thankfully, he has other weaknesses that can be exploited (Nth Metal being the most challenging due to its rarity).

#171 Edited by mightyrearranger (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@heraldofganthet: idk, in the New 52, it might be easier to find some Nth Metal than it would be to find a virgin, tbh... >.>

@lordofallhumans:Interesting, cool to know. Klaw has always been a fascinating character to me, but tossed around a lot by different writers.

#172 Posted by Dredeuced (5509 posts) - - Show Bio

On the Morals off Flash vs Kid Franklin argument...Flash can just time travel and kill him. The only reason Flash doesn't use time travel is morals. I mean there's also no reason to think that Flash couldn't kill Kid Franklin before he could process the thought to reality warp, but hell, there's not really a counter for Wally going back in time and killing the entire Richards family before they ever get doused in cosmic rays.

#173 Posted by ConvenientLie (644 posts) - - Show Bio

On the Morals off Flash vs Kid Franklin argument...Flash can just time travel and kill him. The only reason Flash doesn't use time travel is morals. I mean there's also no reason to think that Flash couldn't kill Kid Franklin before he could process the thought to reality warp, but hell, there's not really a counter for Wally going back in time and killing the entire Richards family before they ever get doused in cosmic rays.

::sigh:: i said this and got called a wanker and flash fan boy by ghostravager

#174 Posted by GhostRavage (8855 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Yep, there are like 50 characters that can do that, but for the sake of comics they don't...

#175 Posted by jashro44 (20845 posts) - - Show Bio

On the Morals off Flash vs Kid Franklin argument...Flash can just time travel and kill him. The only reason Flash doesn't use time travel is morals. I mean there's also no reason to think that Flash couldn't kill Kid Franklin before he could process the thought to reality warp, but hell, there's not really a counter for Wally going back in time and killing the entire Richards family before they ever get doused in cosmic rays.

Wouldn't time travel be self BFR as flash is leaving the battle field?

#176 Edited by HeraldofGanthet (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: I understand that, but in a battle what would be the point in trying to read his or anybody that is like him minds? Telepathic bolts don't work on the same principle as mind reading, when it comes to psi blasts he'd need shielding not just an ever morphing brain, at least he'd need that when facing a Marvel telepath.

I understand what you're saying about shielding (which both most DC and Marvel characters work really hard to build or maintain), the thing that weird about Plas is that the shielding comes as a side effect of his "brainshift" for lack of a better term. It's kind of like this: Imagine a telepath (DC, Marvel, Image, whatever) has it in their mind they're going to brain zap Plastic Man like a telepathic sniper So they send out the psi-bolt. The problem is that their telepathic "bullet" would continually miss its intended target. It would be like trying to shoot free throws at a motorized backboard. Sure, you can shoot the ball, and watching the backboard shake violently up and down, side to side, you'd probably take extra effort to overcompensate for that challenge, but it would still be nearly impossible to make those free throws. It's kind of like that guy Fantomex's misdirection on a mental plane.

#177 Posted by ConvenientLie (644 posts) - - Show Bio
Dredeuced (3198 posts) - 5 minutes, 7 seconds ago - Show Bio

On the Morals off Flash vs Kid Franklin argument...Flash can just time travel and kill him. The only reason Flash doesn't use time travel is morals. I mean there's also no reason to think that Flash couldn't kill Kid Franklin before he could process the thought to reality warp, but hell, there's not really a counter for Wally going back in time and killing the entire Richards family before they ever get doused in cosmic rays.

@ghostravage said:

@dredeuced: Yep, there are like 50 characters that can do that, but for the sake of comics they don't...

=====

morals are off. its happening.

#178 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@mightyrearranger: idk, in the New 52, it might be easier to find some Nth Metal than it would be to find a virgin, tbh... >.>

LMAO!!

#179 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: So once again this is not some direct psionic attack it's a telepath using their psionic powers to basically become a ghost to fight a ghost.

What we have here is a difference without a distinction. We both agree that telepathic combat involves two "spiritual bodies" on/in the Astral Plane. We both agree that the more skilled you are in Astral Combat, the more you can use that realm to your advantage in the conflict. Gentleman Ghost knows this too. Powerful telepaths have tried to engage him in Astral Combat before (as they had done to other spirits before successfully), but to no avail. He never takes the "bait" so to speak. He's only been banished by trying to harm virgins (like Stargirl and Jakeem Thunder), Nobles (like Aquaman), the pure of heart (like Captain Marvel), and Nth Metal weapons (for the obvious reasons). I don't misunderstand one word you've said, mon ami. It's just that this particular Ghost has been a pain in the ass to telepaths going back as far as WWII. Thankfully, he has other weaknesses that can be exploited (Nth Metal being the most challenging due to its rarity).

So now we have him face telepaths like Jean that can astrally travel to the brink and fight death itself and actually bring others back, I think she can take him. Not to downplay DC telepaths but Marvel telepaths can draw power directly from the plane that is composed of the energy that ghost are made of, I haven't really heard of DC telepaths having the same connection to that plane as Marvel telepaths (correct me if I am wrong). For example, Onslaughts actions on the astral plane were actually affecting the entire universe and threatened to destroy it IIRC, and he is nothing more than the full telepathic power of Xavier unleashed and Jean is several degrees more powerful than Xavier. Astral constructs can harm or contain astral beings, and as I said earlier Jean Grey and others like her are basically reality warpers on the astral plane. How powerful is Gentleman Ghost on the astral in comparison?

#180 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: I understand that, but in a battle what would be the point in trying to read his or anybody that is like him minds? Telepathic bolts don't work on the same principle as mind reading, when it comes to psi blasts he'd need shielding not just an ever morphing brain, at least he'd need that when facing a Marvel telepath.

I understand what you're saying about shielding (which both most DC and Marvel characters work really hard to build or maintain), the thing that weird about Plas is that the shielding comes as a side effect of his "brainshift" for lack of a better term. It's kind of like this: Imagine a telepath (DC, Marvel, Image, whatever) has it in their mind they're going to brain zap Plastic Man like a telepathic sniper So they send out the psi-bolt. The problem is that their telepathic "bullet" would continually miss its intended target. It would be like trying to shoot free throws at a motorized backboard. Sure, you can shoot the ball, and watching the backboard shake violently up and down, side to side, you'd probably take extra effort to overcompensate for that challenge, but it would still be nearly impossible to make those free throws. It's kind of like that guy Fantomex's misdirection on a mental plane.

The constant morphing of his brain should not hold weight when under a psionic blast though, he can shift it to keep them from locking on to him as far as entering his mind, but you don't need to enter a mind to attack it with a psi bolt. Think of a telepathic blast as an unavoidable attack that can be stopped by shields, it may not get through the shields but it always hits it's mark with shields now being a bulletproof vest or helmet, without shields his mind should be hit. Marvel telepaths can let out psionic bursts that touch all minds in their range, and Jean is one of the rare telepaths that has a track record of bypassing telepathic resistence and "immunity", whether it be psionic, magical or artifical in nature, when she does't hold back.

#181 Posted by Backflip (2265 posts) - - Show Bio

5 Top class Reality Warpers. Franklin, Wiccan, Scarlet Witch, Hyperstorm and Jamie Braddock?

9 World class Telepaths - Jean Grey, Rachel Grey, Hope Summers, Psylocke, Nate Grey, Cable, Madelyne Pryor, Hyperstorm, Franklin Richards.

Super Preppers - Reed Richards, Cyclops, Cable

DC are going to be very hard pressed to stand against this team.

#182 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio

@backflip said:

5 Top class Reality Warpers. Franklin, Wiccan, Scarlet Witch, Hyperstorm and Jamie Braddock?

9 World class Telepaths - Jean Grey, Rachel Grey, Hope Summers, Psylocke, Nate Grey, Cable, Madelyne Pryor, Hyperstorm, Franklin Richards.

Super Preppers - Reed Richards, Cyclops, Cable

DC are going to be very hard pressed to stand against this team.

This and you can add Hope to the reality warper list since she can mimic all the mutant ones.

#183 Posted by GhostRavage (8855 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

On the Morals off Flash vs Kid Franklin argument...Flash can just time travel and kill him. The only reason Flash doesn't use time travel is morals. I mean there's also no reason to think that Flash couldn't kill Kid Franklin before he could process the thought to reality warp, but hell, there's not really a counter for Wally going back in time and killing the entire Richards family before they ever get doused in cosmic rays.

::sigh:: i said this and got called a wanker and flash fan boy by ghostravager

Not. You actually mentioned an IMP... And IMP is doing shit for someone who stands Celestials Beams without trouble. And for the record... Flash is not going back to time because he doesn't even know who he is fighting... How will he know at what moment to go... To who is he doing this... I guess THAT's why he doesn't do it so often and more like for people he KNOWS about... Its the most LOGICAL idea i can have about it... Don't you like logic ideas Convenient?

#184 Posted by ConvenientLie (644 posts) - - Show Bio

@backflip said:

5 Top class Reality Warpers. Franklin, Wiccan, Scarlet Witch, Hyperstorm and Jamie Braddock?

9 World class Telepaths - Jean Grey, Rachel Grey, Hope Summers, Psylocke, Nate Grey, Cable, Madelyne Pryor, Hyperstorm, Franklin Richards.

Super Preppers - Reed Richards, Cyclops, Cable

DC are going to be very hard pressed to stand against this team.

nah. just go back and read some arguments. Jean, rachey, hope, sylock, reed, cyclops, cable and a few others have regular durability correct? if so zoom and flash kill them with in a femtosecond. and i wont make an argument for the flashe's and zooms vs frank. cause dc has many people that have that type of power set. then theres elain who is now basically god.

PLUS Max Faraday, Jenny Quantum, Phantom Stranger, Black Alice, Ellaine, Timothy Hunter and Mordru.

#185 Posted by ConvenientLie (644 posts) - - Show Bio

@convenientlie said:

@dredeuced said:

On the Morals off Flash vs Kid Franklin argument...Flash can just time travel and kill him. The only reason Flash doesn't use time travel is morals. I mean there's also no reason to think that Flash couldn't kill Kid Franklin before he could process the thought to reality warp, but hell, there's not really a counter for Wally going back in time and killing the entire Richards family before they ever get doused in cosmic rays.

::sigh:: i said this and got called a wanker and flash fan boy by ghostravager

Not. You actually mentioned an IMP... And IMP is doing shit for someone who stands Celestials Beams without trouble. And for the record... Flash is not going back to time because he doesn't even know who he is fighting... How will he know at what moment to go... To who is he doing this... I guess THAT's why he doesn't do it so often and more like for people he KNOWS about... Its the most LOGICAL idea i can have about it... Don't you like logic ideas Convenient?

of course i like logic, who doesnt? Although you are incorrect again. what i brought up was speed steal. if they take away his ability to move and then have all the reality warpers that ive mentioned, its over. AND elain still solos

#186 Posted by bobius (5 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, if DC loses superman, while marvel has Cyclops, QuickSilver and Magneto? Marvel takes it.

#187 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio

@backflip said:

5 Top class Reality Warpers. Franklin, Wiccan, Scarlet Witch, Hyperstorm and Jamie Braddock?

9 World class Telepaths - Jean Grey, Rachel Grey, Hope Summers, Psylocke, Nate Grey, Cable, Madelyne Pryor, Hyperstorm, Franklin Richards.

Super Preppers - Reed Richards, Cyclops, Cable

DC are going to be very hard pressed to stand against this team.

nah. just go back and read some arguments. Jean, rachey, hope, sylock, reed, cyclops, cable and a few others have regular durability correct? if so zoom and flash kill them with in a femtosecond. and i wont make an argument for the flashe's and zooms vs frank. cause dc has many people that have that type of power set. then theres elain who is now basically god.

PLUS Max Faraday, Jenny Quantum, Phantom Stranger, Black Alice, Ellaine, Timothy Hunter and Mordru.

with 3 hours prep Zoom and Flash are non-factors when it comes to these high level telepaths, they can start the battle in their astral forms with their bodies shielded and cloaked, telekinetics can use tk ont he astral plane, and times does not exist to them like it does when they are physical. People like to mention Flash just going back in time and yada yada yada, forgetting that Rachel and Cable can psionically (and physically with enough power) travel in time too.

#188 Edited by ConvenientLie (644 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans said:

@convenientlie said:

@backflip said:

5 Top class Reality Warpers. Franklin, Wiccan, Scarlet Witch, Hyperstorm and Jamie Braddock?

9 World class Telepaths - Jean Grey, Rachel Grey, Hope Summers, Psylocke, Nate Grey, Cable, Madelyne Pryor, Hyperstorm, Franklin Richards.

Super Preppers - Reed Richards, Cyclops, Cable

DC are going to be very hard pressed to stand against this team.

nah. just go back and read some arguments. Jean, rachey, hope, sylock, reed, cyclops, cable and a few others have regular durability correct? if so zoom and flash kill them with in a femtosecond. and i wont make an argument for the flashe's and zooms vs frank. cause dc has many people that have that type of power set. then theres elain who is now basically god.

PLUS Max Faraday, Jenny Quantum, Phantom Stranger, Black Alice, Ellaine, Timothy Hunter and Mordru.

with 3 hours prep Zoom and Flash are non-factors when it comes to these high level telepaths, they can start the battle in their astral forms with their bodies shielded and cloaked, telekinetics can use tk ont he astral plane, and times does not exist to them like it does when they are physical. People like to mention Flash just going back in time and yada yada yada, forgetting that Rachel and Cable can psionically (and physically with enough power) travel in time too.

elain who is now basically god.

PLUS Max Faraday, Jenny Quantum, Phantom Stranger, Black Alice, Ellaine, Timothy Hunter and Mordru.

^you ignored that part so im reposting it.

#189 Edited by mightyrearranger (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans said:

@heraldofganthet said:

@lordofallhumans: So once again this is not some direct psionic attack it's a telepath using their psionic powers to basically become a ghost to fight a ghost.

What we have here is a difference without a distinction. We both agree that telepathic combat involves two "spiritual bodies" on/in the Astral Plane. We both agree that the more skilled you are in Astral Combat, the more you can use that realm to your advantage in the conflict. Gentleman Ghost knows this too. Powerful telepaths have tried to engage him in Astral Combat before (as they had done to other spirits before successfully), but to no avail. He never takes the "bait" so to speak. He's only been banished by trying to harm virgins (like Stargirl and Jakeem Thunder), Nobles (like Aquaman), the pure of heart (like Captain Marvel), and Nth Metal weapons (for the obvious reasons). I don't misunderstand one word you've said, mon ami. It's just that this particular Ghost has been a pain in the ass to telepaths going back as far as WWII. Thankfully, he has other weaknesses that can be exploited (Nth Metal being the most challenging due to its rarity).

So now we have him face telepaths like Jean that can astrally travel to the brink and fight death itself and actually bring others back, I think she can take him. Not to downplay DC telepaths but Marvel telepaths can draw power directly from the plane that is composed of the energy that ghost are made of, I haven't really heard of DC telepaths having the same connection to that plane as Marvel telepaths (correct me if I am wrong). For example, Onslaughts actions on the astral plane were actually affecting the entire universe and threatened to destroy it IIRC, and he is nothing more than the full telepathic power of Xavier unleashed and Jean is several degrees more powerful than Xavier. Astral constructs can harm or contain astral beings, and as I said earlier Jean Grey and others like her are basically reality warpers on the astral plane. How powerful is Gentleman Ghost on the astral in comparison?

That's a pretty good question... Interestingly, I don't think Craddock was ever used by the Black Lantern Corps against the Hawks, which I always found odd. He tracked The Wizard and Johnny Sorrow, two of the JSA's most powerful foes, across the astral plane and without their knowledge. Moreover, he manipulates his own ghostly presence/features down to that of his face or what weapons he wields and how tangible they are. He generally creates duplicates of himself on the fly to fool Hawkman or Batman, and he does so by materializing technology (eg: radios/speakers/fake costumes) out of thin air just because it's more of a challenge than creating ghost-doubles. He's a long-distance teleporter and can drain the life out of a person via touching them.

I mean, say he just materializes his own Helm of Magneto? It's no more of a leap for him than conjuring up a skele-horse or the cartoonish flash-bang bullets he used against Batman in their first encounter, imo. As far as I know, his reality manipulation powers are restricted to him (eg: he's not on Mxy's level when it comes to messing with the world around him), but beyond that, his own petty desire for jewel theft has been his only limitation shown thus far.

Is he hurting someone like Franklin Richards? Lulz, no. But I feel like he's a severe dark horse around these forums, considering the feats he has shown. That's his own fault though; like a lot of DC villains, he chooses to be street-level and commit petty crimes more often than not, haha.

#190 Edited by GhostRavage (8855 posts) - - Show Bio

@convenientlie: As the moment he touches Franklin he's turning into flowers... Also, i've never seen Flash speedstealing a bunch of people that quick... Hell not even 1 people... Show me a scan where he speed steals so fast people can't notice him...

And i love how your only answer is Ellain Ellain Ellain, im sending a message to the creator of this thread to ban the f*ck out of her omnipotent ass. Because on the Marvel team there is not a single omnipotent being making this thread rather stupid. Hell maybe banning all reality warpers as well... That would make this thread more interesting than just mentioning 1 character. Ellain Ellain Ellain...

I want to see which argument your going to have afterwards because you haven't prove ANYTHING by yourself but with scans from other people.

#191 Edited by mightyrearranger (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage said:

@convenientlie: As the moment he touches Franklin he's turning into flowers... Also, i've never seen Flash speedstealing a bunch of people that quick... Hell not even 1 people... Show me a scan where he speed steals so fast people can't notice him...

Um...iirc, Jay Garrick (not nearly as fast as Wally) was able to intercept and speed-steal The Rival before Joan could notice/react in the JSA "Injustice Be Done" arc...

I'll look for it though, it's been a while since I read that one.

Not to mention, I don't think that any Marvel U mutant was even close to DC speedster level in their original incarnations. I think the reason was given that Quicksilver originally had to limit it to sound-barrier level, purely for his own physiological safety...

#192 Edited by ConvenientLie (644 posts) - - Show Bio

@convenientlie: As the moment he touches Franklin he's turning into flowers... Also, i've never seen Flash speedstealing a bunch of people that quick... Hell not even 1 people... Show me a scan where he speed steals so fast people can't notice him...

And i love how your only answer is Ellain Ellain Ellain, im sending a message to the creator of this thread to ban the f*ck out of her omnipotent ass. Because on the Marvel team there is not a single omnipotent being making this thread rather stupid. Hell maybe banning all reality warpers as well... That would make this thread more interesting than just mentioning 1 character. Ellain Ellain Ellain...

I want to see which argument your going to have afterwards because you haven't prove ANYTHING by yourself but with scans from other people.

are you mad at me? why the cursing? show me frank reacting to someone that goes 13 trillion times faster than light. I'll look for scans showing flash speed steal. i'll see if i can find it and you can look for what im asking. dont get mad man, just relax. "elain elain elain" well why the heck wouldnt she keep coming up if she herself can handle all of the marvel people on here? "im gonna get the OP to ban her" geez dude, why are you so mad? just take the loss and move on to another thread if you dont like the rules. dont be a sore loser about it. it doesnt matter if II personaly prove anything. the proof stands. elain solos.

#193 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: Astral constructs can harm or contain astral beings, and as I said earlier Jean Grey and others like her are basically reality warpers on the astral plane. How powerful is Gentleman Ghost on the astral in comparison?

While the upper limits of his powers have yet to be fully established, he has resisted some of the most powerful telepaths in DC going back before either of my parents were born. In addition, he's resisted the attacks to erase him from our plane of existence by some very powerful reality warpers in their own right, Alan Scott being just one of them. So, for some unexplained reason, telepathically attacking him just won't get the job done. Which is why I think that the other methods to defeat him, while not commonplace, are not too difficult to obtain either.

Think of a telepathic blast as an unavoidable attack that can be stopped by shields, it may not get through the shields but it always hits it's mark with shields now being a bulletproof vest or helmet, without shields his mind should be hit. Marvel telepaths can let out psionic bursts that touch all minds in their range, and Jean is one of the rare telepaths that has a track record of bypassing telepathic resistence and "immunity", whether it be psionic, magical or artifical in nature, when she does't hold back.

Agreed. A great deal about Plastic Man's powers have escaped explanation [Why doesn't he just make himself a pair of pants? Why is it almost impossible to drug him? How is he able to grow to such colossal heights without converting surrounding mass into his form (the way Martian's do)? and last but not least, Why is it virtually impossible to mind rape him?] I don't have a diagnostic style answer for you on that last one. The best anyone has ever explained it is that a TP blast is like either a sniper's bullet, or like a shotgun blast. Either way, it needs a target to gauge the amount of damage/effectiveness that it does. My best guess (since I don't actually work at DC) is that Plastic Man's mind must be constantly on red alert against TP probes and attacks and is hell-bent on not letting them enter in. So the constant shifting and warping to continually frustrate the attempts of the telepath would function as his personal version of TP shielding. As I understand it. He's still as vulnerable to telekinesis however, as the next guy.

#194 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@mightyrearranger:Um...iirc, Jay Garrick (not nearly as fast as Wally) was able to intercept and speed-steal The Rival before Joan could notice/react in the JSA "Injustice Be Done" arc...

Correct. Awesome story. Good artwork too.

#195 Posted by mightyrearranger (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@heraldofganthet: Alan Scott was the example I was thinking of as well. However, it's worth noting that he's not predominantly known for his telepathy or reality warping skills.

Does say a hell of a lot that Gentleman Ghost straight-up put the guy in a coma when he actually got pissed off though. O.O

#196 Posted by Dredeuced (5509 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Yep, there are like 50 characters that can do that, but for the sake of comics they don't...

This isn't an argument. Flash does it for his morals. He's gone back in time and changed the outcomes of the future before. If he hadn't his kids would still be dead.

@jashro44 said:

@dredeuced said:

On the Morals off Flash vs Kid Franklin argument...Flash can just time travel and kill him. The only reason Flash doesn't use time travel is morals. I mean there's also no reason to think that Flash couldn't kill Kid Franklin before he could process the thought to reality warp, but hell, there's not really a counter for Wally going back in time and killing the entire Richards family before they ever get doused in cosmic rays.

Wouldn't time travel be self BFR as flash is leaving the battle field?

It is not BFR if you can come back. Relative to the rest of the battlers he wouldn't even be gone. He can time travel backwards, kill the entire Richards family, and time travel back to a second later.

@convenientlie said:

@dredeuced said:

On the Morals off Flash vs Kid Franklin argument...Flash can just time travel and kill him. The only reason Flash doesn't use time travel is morals. I mean there's also no reason to think that Flash couldn't kill Kid Franklin before he could process the thought to reality warp, but hell, there's not really a counter for Wally going back in time and killing the entire Richards family before they ever get doused in cosmic rays.

::sigh:: i said this and got called a wanker and flash fan boy by ghostravager

Not. You actually mentioned an IMP... And IMP is doing shit for someone who stands Celestials Beams without trouble. And for the record... Flash is not going back to time because he doesn't even know who he is fighting... How will he know at what moment to go... To who is he doing this... I guess THAT's why he doesn't do it so often and more like for people he KNOWS about... Its the most LOGICAL idea i can have about it... Don't you like logic ideas Convenient?

Flash doesn't time travel because bad stuff has happened when he and Barry time traveled before. His reasons are entirely moralistic. When forced to, he has changed the past. That's the entire resoluation to literally 4 separate story arcs with Wally -- Blitz, Chain Lightning, during the Armageddon 2001 event, and a miscellanous time vs Professor Zoom. He has and can Time Travel and change the future.

They have 3 hours prep. Prep implies basic knowledge on their opponents. It'd be quite easy for him to go back in time, look for Sue and Reed Richards (fairly famous scientist couple) and murder them.

@convenientlie said:

@backflip said:

5 Top class Reality Warpers. Franklin, Wiccan, Scarlet Witch, Hyperstorm and Jamie Braddock?

9 World class Telepaths - Jean Grey, Rachel Grey, Hope Summers, Psylocke, Nate Grey, Cable, Madelyne Pryor, Hyperstorm, Franklin Richards.

Super Preppers - Reed Richards, Cyclops, Cable

DC are going to be very hard pressed to stand against this team.

nah. just go back and read some arguments. Jean, rachey, hope, sylock, reed, cyclops, cable and a few others have regular durability correct? if so zoom and flash kill them with in a femtosecond. and i wont make an argument for the flashe's and zooms vs frank. cause dc has many people that have that type of power set. then theres elain who is now basically god.

PLUS Max Faraday, Jenny Quantum, Phantom Stranger, Black Alice, Ellaine, Timothy Hunter and Mordru.

with 3 hours prep Zoom and Flash are non-factors when it comes to these high level telepaths, they can start the battle in their astral forms with their bodies shielded and cloaked, telekinetics can use tk ont he astral plane, and times does not exist to them like it does when they are physical. People like to mention Flash just going back in time and yada yada yada, forgetting that Rachel and Cable can psionically (and physically with enough power) travel in time too.

Half the time Cable time travels he forgets what he was supposed to do or say. Even if they tried they couldn't stop Flash from killing any of the reality warping threats, really.

@convenientlie: As the moment he touches Franklin he's turning into flowers... Also, i've never seen Flash speedstealing a bunch of people that quick... Hell not even 1 people... Show me a scan where he speed steals so fast people can't notice him...

And i love how your only answer is Ellain Ellain Ellain, im sending a message to the creator of this thread to ban the f*ck out of her omnipotent ass. Because on the Marvel team there is not a single omnipotent being making this thread rather stupid. Hell maybe banning all reality warpers as well... That would make this thread more interesting than just mentioning 1 character. Ellain Ellain Ellain...

I want to see which argument your going to have afterwards because you haven't prove ANYTHING by yourself but with scans from other people.

I would personally like to point out that Belloc is not a denizen of DC Earth, atleast not anymore. She ascended to Yahweh's throne and merged with her creation (the combined multiverses of Yahweh, Lucifer and her own). Unless you count omnipresence as being a denizen of earth, in which case that would include LT and TOAA -- a point I believe is unintended.

The bigger problem if we include Vertigo, on the whole, is that Mazikeen definitely lives on DC Earth since her last appearance. All in the same continuity as the crossovers with Sandman and Lucifer have proven, as well. Mazikeen has all of Lucifer Morningstar's powers as of the end of the series and she would most definitely solo.

#197 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@mightyrearranger: Does say a hell of a lot that Gentleman Ghost straight-up put the guy in a coma when he actually got pissed off though. O.O

Yes it does. He wouldn't (nor did you or I ever say that he would) slapbox with Franklin Richards. But he doesn't have to in order to make his presence felt here among the larger battle. Especially since no one on the Marvel side has any Nth Metal:P

#198 Posted by ConvenientLie (644 posts) - - Show Bio

"Only characters from earth are included." Mazikeen and elain can solo as they are FROM earth

#199 Posted by GhostRavage (8855 posts) - - Show Bio

@convenientlie: Im not mad, but this is turning into a pointless thread. That why im going to suggest a fix to the OP, anyway, the "f*ck" its a form of expression it wasn't implying i was attacking you in any way... However, i want to see which argument you're going to use because i've only seen Ellain solo's in half your arguments... Why including an omnipotent being, dont you want a not biased fight? Just sayin...

#200 Posted by Dredeuced (5509 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: You are trying to get the rules changed so you can say your favored company wins. You shouldn't be so bitter or spiteful about what amounts to a well meaning thread meant to encourage fun debate.