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#51 Posted by Moonchilde (1601 posts) - - Show Bio

They're not singling out any religion, but are saying that all religion is wrong.

That's one way to look at it. In truth they just aren't given any more weight to one religion over the others.

#52 Posted by TifaLockhart (14043 posts) - - Show Bio

In favor of atheism. No matter how you look at this, this can't end well.

#53 Posted by Moonchilde (1601 posts) - - Show Bio

Agnosticism would probably be a better way to describe it.

#54 Edited by TifaLockhart (14043 posts) - - Show Bio

Not really. That's why this can't end well - no matter what stance you take, someone else's stance isn't right.

#55 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvels Biblical God and Heaven vs Marvel Odin and Asgard.

Who is Marvel Biblical God? Feats and Heaven Forces Below.

This is all Biblical God place and achievements. We know Jews, Muslims, Christians, and even Buddist worship him.

Who wins with all the forces against each other?

Wouldn't be a massive spite if you even included muslim and buddhist Gods, too? I mean, at least three skyfathers against one isn't Good even for odin, he'll get slaughtered..

#56 Posted by Moonchilde (1601 posts) - - Show Bio

So then why do you seem to take offense to Marvel treating all religions equally?

#57 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio
#58 Posted by TifaLockhart (14043 posts) - - Show Bio

That's why religion is tricky - I mean who likes being told their beliefs are wrong? Maybe I was a bit hard on Marvel, even if they chose to disrespect all religion.

#59 Edited by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_last_son_of_czarnia: You could say that about any fictional world where one certin religion is the corect one. It's not disrespect it's equality. They put all religous beings as equal instead of others being above some. But you can't please them all.

#60 Edited by laflux (14252 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2

@the_last_son_of_czarnia:

While the Marvel Cosmic scene can be a bit hard to work out at times, I think it works out well enough.....

However I do prefer streets, simply because things can be a bit less muddled

Also wasn't God in the council of Godheads?

#61 Edited by TifaLockhart (14043 posts) - - Show Bio

They're all equal, true, but they're all equally inferior to other Marvel characters. Maybe the most neutral route would have been not to address whether or not they exist.

#62 Edited by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: If we go by the first appearence of the god heads in Thor 300 some say he was there but they don't list the names of the gods there.

#63 Edited by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_last_son_of_czarnia: In a world where one of your super heros is a god. It's kind of hard to do that. And there DC is not perfect in terms of religion. They put the Christian God above all others. Unless it's preacher but I don't even get that sereis at all so I don't count it against DC. But if you say gods like Thor exist the topic of other ones will come up.

#64 Posted by Moonchilde (1601 posts) - - Show Bio

They're all equal, true, but they're all equally inferior to other Marvel characters. Maybe the most neutral route would have been not to address whether or not they exist.

But then you couldn't have Thor.

#65 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio
#66 Posted by TifaLockhart (14043 posts) - - Show Bio

Exactly.

#67 Edited by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_last_son_of_czarnia: So you don't want Thor or Loki? Well than thats your opinion but I have no problem with what marvel does.

#68 Posted by TifaLockhart (14043 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Thor, but if I worshipped him I'd be offended.

#69 Edited by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio
#70 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

They're all equal, true, but they're all equally inferior to other Marvel characters. Maybe the most neutral route would have been not to address whether or not they exist.

This is Ultimate Marvel Universe. There is Odin, however he is a Dimensional Being. Galactus is a Killer Robot Swarm. Phoenix is a abstract Being, however Phoenix was imprison by a collection of Galaxy Forces working together.

I do not like the mass amount of Universal and Multiversal Marvel Deities.

@princearagorn1: In the GR comic the Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, ect all worship the same God.

@moonchilde: The Council of God Heads had Yahweh who is a God Head of a Pantheon that the Jews Adopted as the name of their Gods name.

Big Difference!

#71 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@bronze_surfer: The rest of the Ghost riders are featless.. there is no reason to believe they're as strong as main GR, nor is Ghost rider beating higher versions of thor. And even an army of Ghost riders isn't going to be of much help in a battle of skyfathers level opponents.

@the_last_son_of_czarnia said:

They're not singling out any religion, but are saying that all religion is wrong.

lol like people are going to suddenly stop going to believing in it because comic/manga say so.. Pretty funny if you think about it. How many people take anything a comic says seriously, as in, very seriously?

You wrong on the featless. Vengeance, Caleb, Nobel Kale, Ketch, Zarathos/Blaze, and a few other all have FEATS.

Caleb, Zarathos, Ketch, and Nobel Kale are ALL Hell Lord Level.

Felt the need to correct you there.

#72 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Not sure how to draw that inference from the scan.. He says the source of power of spirits of vengeance is Allah.. And they comprehend him as per their religions belief. Not that the Gods actually are one.

And I didn't say every last Ghost rider was featless.. I meant, out of the whole army, only a few have feats.

#73 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Thats the point, all the religions are in some way worshiping God (who created man in GR comics cannon from 70s and 2000s runs) and allows humanity to worship or see him in their different ways.

#74 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Thats the point, all the religions are in some way worshiping God (who created man in GR comics cannon from 70s and 2000s runs) and allows humanity to worship or see him in their different ways.

Any scan saying that? (Well, the issue is quite confusing, so anything stating so explicitly will be Good.)

Note that I'm just discussing, not saying you're wrong.

#75 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Nah I understand.

The Statement above was the breakdown to Caretaker.

Ketch explains as much to this Japanese GR.

These Scans are the Cannon explanation of God Creating Mankind and the GRs.

as explain God is All Powerful, his creations are not. And Zadkiel stole the power over Creation by sitting on Gods Throne. God created the GRs so he would not have to interfere directly in anyway in mortal or afterlife battles.

kinda how most churches describe God in general.

#76 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: So Basically, what we're talking about right now is an uber-strong being, which appears as christian God to christians, Muslim God to Muslims, and Hindu God (well, one of them) to Hindu Ghost riders? So wouldn't he appear to be odin to Norse Ghost riders and zeus to greek?Also, we can assume that he has a kind of understanding with the respective skyfathers? otherwise it could actually happen in comic lol (impersonation/copyright infringement war series)..

#77 Posted by dondave (34580 posts) - - Show Bio

Asgard

Online
#78 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

Asgard.

#79 Posted by Killemall (18278 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Marvel does have an over-arching god for all earthly pantheon, The Demuirge. It was his energy that created first the elder god, and later every earth god pantheon.

GR stuff seem to contradict that.

#80 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Marvel does have an over-arching god for all earthly pantheon, The Demuirge. It was his energy that created first the elder god, and later every earth god pantheon.

GR stuff seem to contradict that.

Since the 70s to the current time. Marvel is a wreck. Son of Satan and Tomb of Dracula also confirm these things.

@cadencev2: So Basically, what we're talking about right now is an uber-strong being, which appears as christian God to christians, Muslim God to Muslims, and Hindu God (well, one of them) to Hindu Ghost riders? So wouldn't he appear to be odin to Norse Ghost riders and zeus to greek?Also, we can assume that he has a kind of understanding with the respective skyfathers? otherwise it could actually happen in comic lol (impersonation/copyright infringement war series)..

Pretty much, it sort of also explains why the false Gods like Odin, Zeus, ect are all not worship now and mere skyfathers who have trouble beating Thanos and no match for a starving Galactus.

#81 Edited by laflux (14252 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Marvel does have an over-arching god for all earthly pantheon, The Demuirge. It was his energy that created first the elder god, and later every earth god pantheon.

GR stuff seem to contradict that.

I think a general point is that Marvel Cosmic hierarchy tends to contradict itself >.<

#82 Posted by Killemall (18278 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

I think a general point is that Marvel Cosmic hierarchy tends to contradict itself >.<

Yeah

Since the 70s to the current time. Marvel is a wreck. Son of Satan and Tomb of Dracula also confirm these things.

Pretty much every marvel handbook entry of Elder Gods, as well as 5 different comics that talks about Set Origin, Gaea Origin, Atum's Origin and Chthon origin point to Demuirge being the over-arching god of all earthly pantheons.

I think its likely that people who writer Ghost Rider and people who writer Thor and stuffs about elder god, seem to have little interaction, that makes the things inconsistent.

I personally liked the idea of having a pretty powerful Demuirge running around who well just doesnt give a sh*t. The only thing he ever did was, when Gaea asked for peace on earth, he decended on earth and banged her and Gaea had Atum, he himself couldnt even bother helping Gaea.

I dont know as per comics, i like the idea of those character, powerful, but dont really care what happens to others.

#83 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:
@princearagorn1 said:

@cadencev2: So Basically, what we're talking about right now is an uber-strong being, which appears as christian God to christians, Muslim God to Muslims, and Hindu God (well, one of them) to Hindu Ghost riders? So wouldn't he appear to be odin to Norse Ghost riders and zeus to greek?Also, we can assume that he has a kind of understanding with the respective skyfathers? otherwise it could actually happen in comic lol (impersonation/copyright infringement war series)..

Pretty much, it sort of also explains why the false Gods like Odin, Zeus, ect are all not worship now and mere skyfathers who have trouble beating Thanos and no match for a starving Galactus.

Now that we put it this bluntly, It does sound kind of disrespectful. But someone just made a thread in off topic or general discussion about this, I think. Rather amusing question, If the people of Marvel aren't Muslim, Christian, Norse, Greek, Hindu, what exactly are they? Or they still continue to follow the 'false Gods'? I mean, they can't be all atheists, can they? A rather large plothole if you ask me.

#84 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: They worship horrible 60s clunky Space Gods.

**** you Marvel.

#85 Posted by Killemall (18278 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Do you know what thread it is? About gods in off topic, i might have few things to add to those thread (i have read quite extensively on marvel cosmic hierarchy).

People normally consider the definition of God and what we have been brought up with and see at Marvel's potrayal of god and find it weird, but marvel has gone far ahead to actually define what they believe is a god and a demon. Its defined quite differently. Marvel also clearly keeps it ambiguous that if a true biblical satan or god exists or doesnt in marvel universe, but makes it clear that none of them hell lords like Mephisto, Satan, Sattanis etc are not the actual biblical Satan but rather just normal demons marvel has (i could find and put scans of Marvel pretty clearly stating it, more than once in bios).

As far as marvel is concerned , a mystical being, that can normally die of conventional means can be classified either as a god, a demon or grey area depending upon certain attributes, they dont have to be all evil or all god either.

God however are still not above nature and laws of universe, which are still binding to gods. Thats one reason when a cosmic force comes to earth, they tend to dwarf gods. For example Galactus represents our universal balance of 2 concept Mortality and Death, mortality is portrayed by Eternity and Death by well Mistress Death.

I think its pretty interesting as long as one is prepared to look past what they normally understand of god, and enjoy a fictional concept of it all.

#86 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: They worship horrible 60s clunky Space Gods.

**** you Marvel.

All hail the space Gods! I propose this:

#87 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17004 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

Really Marvel?! This is the best you can do for Universal Concepts of Gods?!

How can I take that seriously?

Actually Marvel's pantheon is much more creative and interesting than the Christian/Jewish/Muslim religious fantasies, which are cheap copies of the gods and myths that came before. There's nothing special about the latest brand of superstition, except perhaps its ability to still make people believe it even in the face of scientific facts. Then again, it's easy to get people to believe in something when you shove it down their throats when they're little kids.

Asgard stomps easily due to feats and just generally being more awesome.

Fully agree.

BTW, best Jahwe's feat wasn't shown here. It was shown in current X-Factor's story, that he interrupted war between Hell-Lords and put them all down. He cutted Hell in realms with their respective rulers. He gived Tier ability to kill Hell-Lords. So I would say that he is at least Demogroge level.

Can we say that it is enough to put down Odin? I am not sure. Army of Ghost Riders acutally will be a problem for Asgardians.

#88 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17004 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean, to say all religions are wrong is definitely wrong, while saying religion is right is maybe wrong. Either way, I'm no Marvel fan.

No, because probably all religions are wrong. Marvel has more sense than biggest religions, yet I'm not beliveing that Marvel's version of universe is true,lol.

#89 Edited by Killemall (18278 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: Is the new X-factor out after Pluto died, or is it on the same issue? I really need to read the whole arc nicely.

#91 Edited by Killemall (18278 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Thanks will try and put my comment there, not sure if people would agree but hey what do i have to lose :p

#92 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

Given my experience with this iteration of God only being him reviving Ghost Rider / giving him angelic support against a bunch of Ninjas - it's a little difficult to say he could beat Odin.

#93 Posted by CharlieJade (422 posts) - - Show Bio

what about the Void?

#94 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Given my experience with this iteration of God only being him reviving Ghost Rider / giving him angelic support against a bunch of Ninjas - it's a little difficult to say he could beat Odin.

...... even after all the proof of creating his own mini universe/dimension for the GR spirits. The fact that Zarathos Best Showings are Vestiges of Gods own direct power? The fact that Zadkiel on Gods Throne was power over Creation? That SoS battle with Able prove God holds the Universe Together with Earth?

You listed very little of his actual feats.

#95 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17004 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: Is the new X-factor out after Pluto died, or is it on the same issue? I really need to read the whole arc nicely.

X-Factor 251

Judge by Yourself. IMO it counts as a Jahwe's feat.

#96 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke said:

Given my experience with this iteration of God only being him reviving Ghost Rider / giving him angelic support against a bunch of Ninjas - it's a little difficult to say he could beat Odin.

...... even after all the proof of creating his own mini universe/dimension for the GR spirits. The fact that Zarathos Best Showings are Vestiges of Gods own direct power? The fact that Zadkiel on Gods Throne was power over Creation? That SoS battle with Able prove God holds the Universe Together with Earth?

You listed very little of his actual feats.

Which all sounds impressive, if we weren't talking about the Marvel Universe. Here most of the God-heads are sporting their own little home-made dimensions, hells, heavens or realms where their off-spring Gods can live in paradise. If we're simply going to zany abstract feats, the whole casual BFR of multiversal destroying energies released from Surtur seems more impressive than these showings.

Note: The Vestiges aren't going to translate into anything worth while in a debate here when Odin's enchanted a ton of things or individuals to pull off some decent feats on there own. It doesn't help that the Serpent, Odin's inferior, could muster enchantments that could knock a spirit of vengeance clean out without issue.

I'm assuming the "his" is Biblical god right? I only listed the feat I recall seeing out of him and something tells me the feats you're listing aren't going to be as dazzling as described.

#97 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

@czarny_samael666: Is the new X-factor out after Pluto died, or is it on the same issue? I really need to read the whole arc nicely.

X-Factor 251

Judge by Yourself. IMO it counts as a Jahwe's feat.

Nice....

@isaac_clarke: I can agree with most of that. However you forget the GR that was KOed by the hammer was in fact Street Level Chick GR not the Spirit itself Zarathos.

Big Difference. Gr has grabbed Mjolnir with no Trouble in the scans above where he encountered the Avengers. So its a null feat really.

#98 Edited by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

Big Difference. Gr has grabbed Mjolnir with no Trouble in the scans above where he encountered the Avengers. So its a null feat really.

Mjolnir as far as I know doesn't have any enchantments dedicated to punishing those attempting to lift it when being unworthy, outside the Serpent-Hammers, Stormbreaker is the only one thus far sporting incinerate anyone that attempts to lift it when they are not worthy. My reference to the event itself was to elaborate on the potency of these enchantments to not only harm / immobilize GR but KO it. I'm not sure I see the difference, GR hasn't been sporting particularly good showings since Shadow Land - so this Serpent hammer KO doesn't seem to inconsistent with the level of power GR has been depicted as for a bit now.

#99 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: Well thats the problem right there. You see no Difference but there is a VAST Difference in Feats and Power of Blaze to Alehendra, and then from Blaze to Zarathos.

Your using a feat for 2 Different GRs as the same?

Blaze was not KO, Alehendra chick was and she had crappy showings as Thunder Strike to thor.

Different characters and her feats were low.

Also Zarathos WAS NOT KOed. How can you say it will KO Zarathos when it merley KO the Host?

Blaze

Zarathos

Blaze

Zarathos

See the difference in KO level here?

#100 Posted by Kellar21 (444 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't this TOAA we are talking about?You know the one who is LT's boss?Or am I horribly mistaken?