#1 Posted by Owie (3741 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a bracket-style battle between a variety of mystics in the Marvel universe.

They each start out in pairs, battling each other. Once each battle is done, they move on to the next battle, as stipulated by the brackets. The last one is the Grand Champion!

Who wins each battle in each round? (See bracket below.)

These battles take place in a neutral dimension that allows each unfettered access to their powers (so Magik, for instance, has access to the power she would have in Limbo, etc.).

Win through any means necessary. Each participant is completely rested and restored before each new battle. Battles start at 25'. Morals off.

Each participant has the use of their sorcery, of course. If they have any other powers, they may use those too (so Magik can use her teleportation discs, Doom has his normal armor, Selene has her psychic and vampire powers, etc.).

Character details: Varnae, Kaluu, Urthona, Morgan Le Fay, Selene, Baron Mordo, Modred, and Doom are all classic versions. Karnilla is current. Magik is current and starts in armor and with Soul sword. Scarlet Witch is pre-HOM. Nico Minoru is current and can use her Staff of One. Wiccan is as currently seen in Children's Crusade. Daimon Hellstrom is current and has his trident. Brother Voodoo is Sorcerer Supreme and has the Eye of Agomotto. Talisman is current and has both her Coronet and her father's Medicine Bag.

The Brackets:

WHO WINS EACH BATTLE, IN EACH ROUND?

Varnae
Kaluu
Karnilla
Urthona
Magik
Morgan Le Fay
Scarlet Witch
Selene
Baron Mordo
Modred
Nico Minoru
Wiccan
Daimon Hellstrom
Doctor Doom
Brother Voodoo
Talisman
#2 Edited by Boobster (1608 posts) - - Show Bio

Are you serious ? I don't even know most of those. And I don't think you'll find some hardcore magic fans out there.

Sadly, but people are more interested in threads involving same crap characters like Thor, Superman and others, with same shit going all over and over in the discussion.

From those I know, I think it is between Doom, Mordo, Scarlet Witch and... maybe Voodoo ? I'd give it to Doom or Mordo but Scarlet Witch's magic is powerful, I remember she helped Thor and Odin to get free out of the monster created by Enchanters, to whom even Odin with his magic couldn't do anything.

#3 Posted by insheepsclothes (169 posts) - - Show Bio

this is a well-crafted thread man. well done. i agree w/ the poster above however, some of these combatatnts are rather obscure & most ppl wont be able to comment. also, most ppl on the battle forums bitch about how certain characters are used all the time, yet when a thread like this comes along, it will be ignored almost completely. that said, i cant go round by round here bc of lack of knowlede...but for my 2 cents....i see the winner of Le Fay v. Selene taking on the winner of classic Mordo v Doom. Doom & Le Fay have experience w/ each other, altho im not sure they have ever actually battled....i thought i remember Doom tricking her & porting away. classic Mordo is a beast...though his 1st round matchup w/ Mordred will test him plenty. if you have some color on some of the other ppl (kaluu, varnae, karnilla, urthona) id love to hear it.....

#4 Posted by kiss_lamia (1247 posts) - - Show Bio

Oooohhh Magick funs looool im rooting for Morgan, Selene and Talisman but it going to be a tough one for all contestants hmm i will have to come back  for a more indepth look a little later on :D

#5 Posted by Owie (3741 posts) - - Show Bio

@Boobster said:

Are you serious ? I don't even know most of those. And I don't think you'll find some hardcore magic fans out there.

Well, maybe not, but I figure you've got to make threads you're interested in yourself, right? I actually tried to pick some of the better known ones!

@insheepsclothes said:

this is a well-crafted thread man. well done. i agree w/ the poster above however, some of these combatatnts are rather obscure & most ppl wont be able to comment. also, most ppl on the battle forums bitch about how certain characters are used all the time, yet when a thread like this comes along, it will be ignored almost completely. that said, i cant go round by round here bc of lack of knowlede...but for my 2 cents....i see the winner of Le Fay v. Selene taking on the winner of classic Mordo v Doom. Doom & Le Fay have experience w/ each other, altho im not sure they have ever actually battled....i thought i remember Doom tricking her & porting away. classic Mordo is a beast...though his 1st round matchup w/ Mordred will test him plenty. if you have some color on some of the other ppl (kaluu, varnae, karnilla, urthona) id love to hear it.....

Thanks. And thanks for giving your 2 cents. I'll fill in some details on some of the combatants later if necessary. Most are in the wikis but I can summarize later.

@kiss_lamia said:

Oooohhh Magick funs looool im rooting for Morgan, Selene and Talisman but it going to be a tough one for all contestants hmm i will have to come back for a more indepth look a little later on :D

Great, please do.

#6 Posted by tron_bonne (2286 posts) - - Show Bio

Side 1: 

  1. Kaluu
  2. Karnilla
  3. Morgan Le Fay
  4. Scarlet Witch
 
Side 2: 
  1. Baron Mordo
  2. Nico
  3. Dr. Doom
  4. Voodoo
 
Winner of side 1/2: 
 Round 1: Kaluu  
 Round 2: Karnilla 
 Round 3: Dr. Doom 
 Round 4: Voodoo 
 
Semi:  
  1. Kaluu
  2. Dr. Doom
 
Final: 
  1. Dr. Doom
#7 Posted by davelecave (1113 posts) - - Show Bio

Did you seriously leave Dr. Strange out of this?

#8 Posted by Owie (3741 posts) - - Show Bio

@tron_bonne: Awesome. But 2 technical issues: in round 2, you'd have Kaluu vs Karnilla, and Morgan vs SW, so you can't have Kaluu and Karnilla win. And on the other side, you'd have Mordo vs Nico and Doom vs Voodoo, so again you can't have Doom and Voodoo win.

@davelecave said:

Did you seriously leave Dr. Strange out of this?

Well sure, on purpose. I wanted to try out some of the other powerful mages instead. It's not supposed to be a definitive "best of Marvel magic" match-up. Then you'd also have to include Belasco, Lilith, Kulan Gath, Sise-Neg, etc. Then you run into various "who's more omnipotent" arguments, and I wanted to avoid that.

#9 Posted by jashro44 (21778 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice thread!
 
I wish I was more knowledgeable with magic characters....I will just take a guess though and say scarlet witch wins. There is a reason doom would steal her powers. I'm sorry I can't really go into detail.

#10 Posted by sandiego008 (3283 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: Quick questions ... any prep time allotted? ... and are battles to death or just k.o.?

#11 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4135 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie said:

This is a bracket-style battle between a variety of mystics in the Marvel universe.

They each start out in pairs, battling each other. Once each battle is done, they move on to the next battle, as stipulated by the brackets. The last one is the Grand Champion!

Who wins each battle in each round? (See bracket below.)

These battles take place in a neutral dimension that allows each unfettered access to their powers (so Magik, for instance, has access to the power she would have in Limbo, etc.).

Win through any means necessary. Each participant is completely rested and restored before each new battle. Battles start at 25'. Morals off.

Each participant has the use of their sorcery, of course. If they have any other powers, they may use those too (so Magik can use her teleportation discs, Doom has his normal armor, Selene has her psychic and vampire powers, etc.).

Character details: Varnae, Kaluu, Urthona, Morgan Le Fay, Selene, Baron Mordo, Modred, and Doom are all classic versions. Karnilla is current. Magik is current and starts in armor and with Soul sword. Scarlet Witch is pre-HOM. Nico Minoru is current and can use her Staff of One. Wiccan is as currently seen in Children's Crusade. Daimon Hellstrom is current and has his trident. Brother Voodoo is Sorcerer Supreme and has the Eye of Agomotto. Talisman is current and has both her Coronet and her father's Medicine Bag.

The Brackets:

WHO WINS EACH BATTLE, IN EACH ROUND?

Varnae
Kaluu
Karnilla
Urthona
Magik
Morgan Le Fay
Scarlet Witch
Selene
Baron Mordo
Modred
Nico Minoru
Wiccan
Daimon Hellstrom
Doctor Doom
Brother Voodoo
Talisman
round one side one 
1. Varnae ( I feel his physical stats will definitely add to the battle)
2. Karnilla 
3. Illyana Rapsutin (in this battle she is given her full power in Limbo, making her an extremely powerful hell lord, her armor has protections against magic and then there is the sword and her army, if she still exists as her astral self, Illyana could just absorb her into the sword.) 
4. Wanda (even before HOM and the Lifeforce she had the potential to warp reality via magic/mutant combo, not on the same scale but it should be enough to take Selene out) 
 
round one side two  
1. I wanna say Mordo and that's all I'll say 
2. Wiccan 
3. Doom 
4. Voodoo (as powerful as Talisman is she was at best a novice and had potential to be as powerful as Dr. Strange when he was SS, I've seen nothing to suggest she has tapped that potential and thus should still be a weaker than a SS.) 
 
round two side one 
1. Karnilla 
2. Illyana -(Wanda can warp reality, Illyana taking all her powers to this realm should be able too including space and time, pre-hom Wanda showed that her full power is not beyond planetary when Morgan used her, Illyana can warp an entire dimension, and has more magical knowledge) 
 
round 2 side two
1. Mordo 
2. Doom.  Although there is no reason to believe Doom can have more magical knowledge than a SS, part of being a SS automatically means you are privy to magics and spells that non-SSs can't get, but he has his armor and this may be the deciding factor. 
 
round three side one 
Illyana - she has already illustrated that a full powered sorceress from Asgard is not really up to the challenge when she has the full backing of Limbo, Asgardians are gods, they are sustained by magic and thus should be just as easy to kill with the sword as demons. 
 
round three side two  
Doom 
 
Final round:  I'm giving it to Illyana his magic no matter how mighty should not compare to her full power, any number of demons she can summon to help can affect his armor with the transmode virus, she can use her disc to protect from attacks, his blast can be teleported to hit him,.  She can also alter time and replace him with a past version of himself that knows nothing of magic and has no armor.   in the end I'm sticking with soul sword, he is a magic user and the sword can kill and disrupt the power of even magicians that are not born magical creatures.
#12 Posted by Owie (3741 posts) - - Show Bio

@insheepsclothes: OK, here's a bit of background, although I'm not sure it's enough to help figure out the battles.

Varnae is the original vampire, and is a powerful sorcerer. (Although everyone here is.) He trained some other good magic-user in sorcery, but now I can't remember who that was. Kaluu is a contemporary of the Ancient One and possibly the most powerful Black magician. Karnilla is usually considered the most powerful sorcerer of the Asgardians. Urthona is an alien sorcerer who wanted to be Sorcerer Supreme and managed to temporarily get ahold of most of Dr. Strange's artifacts. Illyana's sword can destroy magic and she can cast spells, but also has enormous power in limbo as the sort of god of that dimension. Morgan Le Fay is a very powerful sorceress. Scarlet Witch is a pretty good spellcaster, having learned from Agatha Harkness, and also can use her hex power in tandem with her magic. Selene is a powerful witch and also has a fair amount of TP and TK powers, as well as the ability to steal people's souls. Mordo is a classic black magician and enemy of Strange. Modred is a powerful wizard from the past, and has strong ties to Chthon. Nico Minoru is from the Runaways, she can cast spells from her staff, but can only cast each spell once; she generally does it by explaining what she wants to happen, like Zatanna. Wiccan does it that way too; he has shown a lot of power in Children's Crusade, including stopping a nuke somehow (it's unclear if he stopped it from going off, or if he dissipated the power as it exploded). Hellstrom has gone up and down in power a lot, but as a lord of hell, he can summon enormous power, like Magik can in Limbo. On earth he's less powerful but still formidable. (In this battle, we're treating them as if they were in their home dimension, in terms of power.) Doom is a pretty good mystic, having learned from a variety of sources, including Dr. Strange, and his armor can analyze other people doing magic, allowing him to copy them. Brother Voodoo didn't use to be super-powerful, but as Sorcerer Supreme and under the tutelage of Strange he took a step up; the Eye of Agamotto is able to weaken evil magic and see through illusions, and is the link to the extremely powerful Agamotto. Talisman is a powerful sorceress; her coronet amplifies her powers. Her bag allows her to pull out all sorts of useful magic artifacts to help her.

Hopefully that helps a bit. I feel like I just said "powerful sorcerer" a lot!

Personally, I would go with the first round winners being Kaluu, Karnilla, Magik (tough fight though), and maybe Selene (also a tough fight) on the left, and Mordo, Wiccan, Hellstrom, and Talisman (all good fights) on the right.

Then I'd take Kaluu (tough one over Karnilla), Magik, Mordo and Hellstrom in round 2.

Then Kaluu and Hellstrom, then Kaluu in the end.

#13 Posted by Owie (3741 posts) - - Show Bio

@sandiego008 said:

@Owie: Quick questions ... any prep time allotted? ... and are battles to death or just k.o.?

No prep, and win through any means--KO, death, magical entrapment or ensorcellment, whatever.

@LordOfAllHumans:

Nice--I think Illyana is a major factor here too. I think Kaluu could possibly take her through his experience in magical fighting, possibly using some tricks rather than a frontal assault, but it's up in the air. Hellstrom also has his hell-lord powers here as well.

#14 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4135 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie said:

@sandiego008 said:

@Owie: Quick questions ... any prep time allotted? ... and are battles to death or just k.o.?

No prep, and win through any means--KO, death, magical entrapment or ensorcellment, whatever.

@LordOfAllHumans:

Nice--I think Illyana is a major factor here too. I think Kaluu could possibly take her through his experience in magical fighting, possibly using some tricks rather than a frontal assault, but it's up in the air. Hellstrom also has his hell-lord powers here as well.

I think the sword and her armor, which for the most part is nearly immune to magic (even the sword) is her big gun.  I figured that with Hellstorm, but I also took into account that Doom can use his armor...then again if Hellstorm gets the reality warp option then I'd change my mind.
#15 Posted by Owie (3741 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

I think the sword and her armor, which for the most part is nearly immune to magic (even the sword) is her big gun. I figured that with Hellstorm, but I also took into account that Doom can use his armor...then again if Hellstorm gets the reality warp option then I'd change my mind.

I agree about Magik. Yeah, treat Hellstrom with the same reality control option. I think Doom would last a while, but lose eventually. A lot of people Doom could simply will his way past, but Hellstrom is pretty hot headed and isn't going to take any smack.

#16 Posted by kiss_lamia (1247 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie said:

The Brackets:

WHO WINS EACH BATTLE, IN EACH ROUND?

Varnae
Kaluu
Karnilla
Urthona
Magik
Morgan Le Fay
Scarlet Witch
Selene
Baron Mordo
Modred
Nico Minoru
Wiccan
Daimon Hellstrom
Doctor Doom
Brother Voodoo
Talisman
Right for me its going to be
 
Round One Team 1
 
Match 1 hmmmm im not to familiar with Kaluu as i am with Varne but with comlications of a final death for Varne in going with him
Match 2 For this one im Going with Karnilla 
Match 3 While Ilyianna May have the power of Limbo, the more she uses her soul sword her adversaries in Limbo also gain power so Morgan maybe able to use that to her advantage especially is she gleans the sword away and magicks like she did with the ebony blade also in her atlantis rising arc. so tough call but im going with morgan due to more experience on this one.
Match 4 again another hard desicion but while wanda may have hex powers and magic in the mix she is still not experienced enough if i remember correctly pre hom her magic was said to be novice  level because she hasn't been trained to use magic to its fullest ability, Selene would have 17,000 years more experience with magic so im giving to her.
 
Round One Team 2
 
Match 1 Modred i think will get the win, I think he was one of few with complete mastery over the Darkhold which gave him Cthon's Magic so i think he should take this one
Match 2 Im going With Wiccan i think his Sympathetic Magic and Wish Magic gives him a slight Edge
Match 3 hmmm another hard one but from what ive read of Daimion's Price of Lies series i think im going with him lool
match 4 Im giving to Talisman Pretty much because of her Neutrlisation power, and the fact that she can commande all form of spirit, so Voodoo can send out as many as he want and she could reverse them to attack him.
 
Round 2 Team 1
Match 1 Varnae i think will have slight edge to his syphoning of lifeforce power
Match 2 This will be a Hard battle but for me i think Selene will win due to cunning and experience 
 
Round 2 Team 2
Match 1 Modred i think will win due to experience and his knowledge 
Match 2 i Think Talisman will be able to hold him off again by neutrilising his powers and also since he is connected to infernal realm as the binder of spirits and realms she might be able to bind him into hell dimension.
 
Round 3 Team 1 
 
Match 1 Hmm Hard Battle but i think Selene can take him, since her knowledge extends that far back i think she would no enough Atlantean Gods to keep him at bay with spells and i think she would be able to use her powers in order to keep from falling into his clutches and her shadow port will come in handy when trying kill moves such as beheadment or staking him.
 
Round 3 Team 2
 
Match 1 This going to be a hard decision since both are pretty powerful, modred has the darkhold advantage but Talisman has her neutrilsing powers so i think this match is who can react faster hmmm on a whim im gonna go for Talisman.
 
Final Battle 
 
Match 1 Hhmmm again this is about reaction and i think Selene would end it quickly by shadowporting and jsut draining her with her mutant powers rather than magical.
 
So for me Winner is Selene
 
Again this is from my point of view so feel free to make you own rounds hehe :P
#17 Posted by insheepsclothes (169 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: thanks for the follow-up!! very helpful info man. kaluu is that strong, eh? what books did he make appearances in? Strange? I wonder how much Selen's TP would be a factor for these battles as well...effective you think? POWERFUL SORCERER!!!

#18 Posted by Owie (3741 posts) - - Show Bio

@kiss_lamia: Wow nice analysis. There are so many battles here that are close, I keep changing my mind. I think Talisman is kind of a dark horse here too, and I'm wondering about Modred; I like him and want him to win. Nice points about the similar ages (and vampiric tendencies) of Selene and Varnae.

@insheepsclothes said:

@Owie: thanks for the follow-up!! very helpful info man. kaluu is that strong, eh? what books did he make appearances in? Strange? I wonder how much Selen's TP would be a factor for these battles as well...effective you think? POWERFUL SORCERER!!!

Yeah, Kaluu is tough. The major arc I'm familiar with is a big one from the Strange Tales series in the 80s, where he helped Strange go up against Shuma-Gorath. He basically turned Strange into a black magician (with Strange's consent). I think some of the non-magic powers might be a big factor, since the others aren't as used to fighting against them. POWERFUL SORCERER!

#19 Posted by kiss_lamia (1247 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie:  Thanks for the topic magick and horror threads are rare :D so thankies for making us think alot loool
#20 Posted by King-Stranglehold da first (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

cool fight.

#21 Posted by pooty (11156 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: @LordOfAllHumans: @tron_bonne: Does anyone have any feats for Brother Voodoo? From what i've seen Orko can beat him.

#22 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4135 posts) - - Show Bio
@pooty said:

@Owie: @LordOfAllHumans: @tron_bonne: Does anyone have any feats for Brother Voodoo? From what i've seen Orko can beat him.

Not many I know about, but he holds the title of Sorcerer Supreme that title comes with all the power, spells and artifacts of the previous one, you already have to be proficient at magic to receive the title, even having no feats at all he should be able to do what ever Strange could do with the same title and perks that come with, being SS is like a promotion at work, if I become CEO I now have all the powers of the one before me, the only difference now is how I use said power.  Same goes for Talisman, outside of her natural ability to rechannel magic, anybody that gets her artifact is capable of all the same feats and per Strange she had the potential to be his rival, but there is nothing to suggest she has tapped any of that potential so she would be at the same level she was with Strange when facing Voodoo, and he has been doing magic longer.
#23 Posted by pooty (11156 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: Thanks. As far as feats go i don't think Marvel is dealing with him the right way.

#24 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4135 posts) - - Show Bio
@pooty said:

@LordOfAllHumans: Thanks. As far as feats go i don't think Marvel is dealing with him the right way.

never really followed the character or Strange for that matter (I like the mutants best) so I don't know much about him, but I heard he was dead, which is weird because I was under the impression that the mantle of SS was very important, at least in the magical community in Marvel, and I sure haven't heard of a new one.
#25 Edited by chiq (1962 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

I think the sword and her armor, which for the most part is nearly immune to magic (even the sword) is her big gun. I figured that with Hellstorm, but I also took into account that Doom can use his armor...then again if Hellstorm gets the reality warp option then I'd change my mind.

I agree about Magik. Yeah, treat Hellstrom with the same reality control option. I think Doom would last a while, but lose eventually. A lot of people Doom could simply will his way past, but Hellstrom is pretty hot headed and isn't going to take any smack.

Great thread man. I would personally go with magik since the Soul Sword is tailor made for this. and she teleports across dimensions, time and space. Her reaction time seems sharper if she can avoid light speeders.(probably due to her time manipulation powers) She also seems to be the best hand to hand combatant here, so she can pop in and out of the time line at any moment and stab from behind. So I'm looking at a magik speed blitz style w/ the sword and armor. Don't have any problems with Hell storm and and Doom winning either. I have to admit don't know much about voodoo. didn't he die?

Everyone here is powerful for sure. I just think Magik can blindside them through time and dimension hopping with the ultimate "anti magic" weapon. Plus Strange commented on her ability to manipulate time on a vast scale and since she has access to her full powers (she's basically a hell lord) i'd go with her. If the sword can affect mephisto, I would like to think it can affect everyone here. Not familiar with kaluu he sounds very powerful though.

#26 Posted by Owie (3741 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@Owie: @LordOfAllHumans: @tron_bonne: Does anyone have any feats for Brother Voodoo? From what i've seen Orko can beat him.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

never really followed the character or Strange for that matter (I like the mutants best) so I don't know much about him, but I heard he was dead, which is weird because I was under the impression that the mantle of SS was very important, at least in the magical community in Marvel, and I sure haven't heard of a new one.

Voodoo didn't have much time to build up a lot of feats. Based on what he did in New Avengers, and I don't think he's been seen much outside that since becoming SS, he cast what I would call normal-level magical spells. I can look up the exact details if you want, but basically it was standard superhero magic. Most significantly, the New Avengers fought Agamotto, who for poorly explained reasons wanted to take over everything. So Voodoo was the person who eventually defeated him, and seemingly sacrificed himself in the process. This sounds somewhat impressive--beating Agamotto--but number one, it was a severely underpowered Agamotto, and number two, it was really done in conjunction with the soul-power of the other Avengers, and with Strange's help. It was kind of lame. In terms of him dying, that's how they presented it. But I could see any number of future explanations, like he was elevated to another plane or whatnot, and will come back having had some supernatural adventure.

You're right that they haven't made a big deal out of this, which is annoying, because at least from the characters' point of view, they all felt he was dead. So since Strange made such a big deal about finding a new SS after he dropped the role, you'd think they would have to go through that whole process again. And as far as I know they haven't even talked about it. My assumption is that Voodoo isn't really dead and so he'll come back to the mantle of SS soon.

In terms of how he can do in this fight, he is able to possess people (I'm not sure how effective this would be against proficient magic users, but if it works then the fight is done), and the Eye of Agamotto would certainly be effective against many kinds of magic.

@chiq: Awesome scan. And yes, I think Illyana has a lot to offer in this fight. I personally think there have got to be some ways for these other combatants to get around the magic-stopping power of her sword and armor, but I don't know how. But you're right, if it affects Mephisto, then that's a pretty good argument for its power. Doom, Scarlet Witch, Selene, and possibly Urthona (who is pretty tall and thus probably strong) all have fairly effective non-magical attacks/defenses they could use against her. But when you add her lord of limbo powers on top of that, she's pretty tough to beat.

#27 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump. This thread is amazing.