Martial Arts Team vs Gun Team

vs

Conditions

-Only small firearms. Standard gear

-No prep

-Random encounter

-Assume they are working with their team but are still IC

-Fight near dusk time, on a new moon.

-No healing factors

-New 52 feats only. Standard versions for all others.

@rolandalderas: Interesting fight, I'd say the H2H people mostly due to caps shield, and the bat family. I feel overall they could engage team 2 faster than team 2 could kill them with their bullets. With that in mind 6/10 for team 1.

I want to say the gunmen because I think deathstroke can handle cap. All someone needs to do is get cap to stay in place and then someone just shoots him in the head.

Guns.

@killerwasp: Thanks. I actually can't pick a winning team.

Any more thoughts?

@rolandalderas: thats the point of forming threads picking sides and stuff that u have a question about and that are dead even in your sight, so u ask to see what people think ^^. Not necessary i just imagine how epic it is ^^ XD

@killerwasp: Yea I should've went with a different title so more people would look at the thread lol.

This is actually a close fight. I'd give it to the martial arts team. They have enough bullet timers to bring the battle in close and then they could outfight the gunmen

Team 2 wins 6/10

@rootsunderdog: What makes you think that?

Each team is pretty even. And even if they get close to the gun team the fight is far from over. Each gunman has pretty adept fighting skills up close. Perhaps even better than some of the martial arts team.

@rolandalderas: People mite look but they usually never comment, you can see thread with easily 4k views yet only like 10 comments. People are lazy sadly and can't put their personal opinion down. Title was fine actually, shame there's no discussion on this per say.

@rolandalderas: I think Tim Drake would be the only one put down by gunfire. Cap, DD, Batman, Nightwing, and Moon Knight have the ability to either tank with armor or dodge their way up to get a H2H fight. Then I see it like this

Any martial artist surviving could take Punisher, Snake, or Red Hood. Cap, DD, Batman or Moon Knight could take Bucky or Deadpool. Then the rest could hang up on Deathstroke

@rootsunderdog: So if Tim would be taken out by gunfire, the martial artist still win? And you think he would die by gunfire?

I just don't know about that. If Tim goes down, then when they do engage them in hand to hand, they are going to be at a numbers disadvantage. None of these fights would end quickly enough for them to gang up on the rest of either group. If Tim went down, then it would be:

Batman vs Deathstroke

Cap vs Snake

DD vs Deadpool

Moon Knight vs Bucky

Nightwing vs Red hood

Now all of those fights are going to be close. Then, we have the Punisher left to throw into the fight, Throw Frank in anyone of those match ups and it will change just on the simple fact they have more numbers if one of the MA team goes down.

@rolandalderas: the point is after Tim nobody would really be effected by the gunfire. And punisher has been splashed into a lot of fights and still lost. Unless he teams up with Deathstroke to take down whoever he's fighting, the rest of the martial arts team could still beat punisher+whoever he teams up with

The fact that the gunmen are all pretty great H2H fighters as well puts things in their favor. If the following is true (being as generous as possible to each team)

Deathstroke = Cap

Bucky = Nightwing

Snake = Batman

Punisher = Moon Knight

Deadpool = Daredevil

Jason = Tim

Then the gun team would win on virtue of simply having more options. The logic isn't perfect, but you see where I'm coming from.

Team 1 wins this.

Team 1 has got bullet timers, and will engage team 2 in h2h. Tim dies, lol. Change the robin if you want a better fight.

Cap vs snake- cap.

Bat vs DS- very close/can't say. I give bat an edge to his gadgets n versatility in combat.

Nightwing vs redhood- nightwing has electro gauntlets that electrocute him

Moon knight vs bucky- bucky gets the lead, but as fight goes longer, moon Knight gets stronger and he can probably keep the fight longer. Moon knight wins.

Dd vs deadpool- DD of course, guy has fought cap and gave him a run for his money.

Frank is a huge factor here. He can shoot anyone on team 1 while they are fighting with others, but batman can probably counter this problem with his smoke/gas grenades limiting punishers vision, as frank may not try and hit in a smoke cloud considering he can harm his team mates.(plus team1 armor can tank a few shots from a pistol/handgun unless its a headshot)

And team 1 may show better teamwork as in team 2 deadpool is is less of a team player, same goes for punisher too.

Considering all these factors, I give team 1 win.

How dare you make a fight of evenly matched characters, all of of which I like! Now I can't even pick based on prejudices and blind hatred.

But in all seriousness I give it to the H2H fighters because they have 2 of the best tacticians in comics. Cap and Bats figure out a way to win but only by the narrowest of margins

@nickzambuto: snake is not equal to batman in h2h.

And you're wrong on DD and deadpool too. DD is better.

Probably they will not fight in that way, considering bat and cap have formulated a strategy to win upon seeing them itself.

It's to close to call, they are all relatively even; and with so many factors each bring to the table, deciding who wins, IMO comes down to preference.

Really? Of all the matches I put out that's the one you choose to call out? Not Jason Todd vs Tim Drake or Deadpool vs Daredevil? Ugh.

Like I said things don't work out perfectly but they even out. Everybody is fairly evenly matched in H2H skill, which gives team guns the overall advantage. The idea that Batman could effortlessly dispatch Snake within seconds is just ignorant.

Martial Arts

@nickzambuto: no, you're terribly wrong.

Batman can take snake down, I didn't say bat would stomp, but it won't be that hard.

DD is a better fighter at h2h than deadpool.

Jason vs Tim is good fight, but Tim may die before this happening.

This fight will not happen probably like the way u mentioned, Considering the strategical and tactical minds of Bruce n cap are at work together.

I couldn't say it all in my last post, sorry. But i edited, but by that time u already posted.

As I said, I know things don't work out perfectly, but everyone's skill level is close enough that it will even out in the end.

Daredevil has already beaten Deadpool and Jason already stomped Tim Drake. So from there Daredevil and Jason just go head to head and again we're at more or less even. Ergo team gun has the advantage.

You realize that every single member of team 2 is a highly accomplished if not master strategist in their own right, whereas Batman and Cap are the only two for their team, right? The martial artists have no advantage in tactics.

Solid Snake is considered the definitive master of all things CQC - that encompasses all aspects of hand to hand combat in addition to various firearms and weapons. He's used throws and submission holds on characters like the Cyborg Ninja and Vamp, and can even speedblitz groups of men with identical physical abilities to himself through sheer skill. In terms of pure knowledge, Batman doesn't have anything over Snake. Even in his old age Snake could easily take down mobs of armed guards casually, often times facing near-superhuman nanomachine enhanced PMC and FROG troopers, and against Big Mama's elite PLA unit he still disarmed and KOd four of them in six seconds, not even mentioning the rest of the unit. Snake has taken on and bested opponents as skilled as Liquid Snake, Revolver Ocelot, Frank Jaeger, Vamp, Olga Gurlukovich, Raiden, all with nothing but his bare hands. That list easily matches any you could come up with for Batman, and considering the physical advantage Snake also has against Bruce, to say Batman would defeat him and "it wouldn't be that hard" just shows your ignorance of the subject matter.

Team 1. Daredevil could play spotter with his senses. Batman uses stealth and gadgets to wreck shop. Moon Knight has an incredible pain tolerance and he can close the gap on any of the shooters. Nightwing has great agility and speed for a peak human. Cap is just overkill.

Guns I think.

Jmarshmallow

Bucky and Red Hood on their own are already enough of a challenge to Batman and Cap's strategic talents. Adding in Deathstroke's computer brain, Deadpool's unpredictability, Solid Snake's quick thinking and improvisational skill, and Frank Castle's brutal efficiency puts strategy firmly in team 2's corner. Punisher on his own is arguably better than Cap in-universe.

Gun Team

@nickzambuto: obviously you don't know about batman. Bat has taken superhuman opponents much powerful than anyone you put on list, you know.

And this proves old snake has got many guys wanking him still, lol.

I'm not going to argue over here as you are the more ignorant of us. Read some bat comics. Then we can argue.

That's not much of an argument, you need to provide feats and reasoning, not "lol". Proper grammar also goes a long way in convincing people that you have intelligence. I can only assume that you have no counter to the single paragraph I wrote out, which goes to show your lack of knowledge on Batman. The idea that fighting "superhumans" is enough to put him over Snake is laughable considering Snake fights superhumans far more regularly than Batman does.

the bullet team wins. they have top martial artists who can beat some of the h2h team without guns. oh yeah...the gun team also has guns.

What do you mean exactly by small firearms? Nothing above an assault rifle?

Even then if these people are bullet timers, these aren't your run of the mill thugs or mooks. Punisher has tagged speedsters. And tagged spiderman by studying his moves. Though batman being bulletproof poses a problem if nobody can use heavier weapons.

@nickzambuto: I agree with all of that but I think Nightwing is the deciding factor for me. Bucky and Red Hood are able to challenge but neither are as good as bats or cap and nightwing I think is also above those two. Three superior tactical minds and lack of ego gives them the win for me. The gun group is a bunch of line wolves where the H2H will have no problem working as a team.

Fair point, I would argue that Bucky is above Nightwing though considering he's pretty much a high-tier street level character in Marvel, easily on par with Cap despite being much slower and weaker physically. By comparison, Nightwing is at least a league or two below Batman.

@roronuffy: I think Red Hood or Bucky would be able to take Nightwing, honestly.

He doesn't have an answer for the All Blades and Bucky is likely a closer fight for Nightwing.

@nickzambuto: okay man, I'll give u some feats. Not now, later. But I'll give you the feats.

Just for you know, he beat bane on full venom, defeated DS. Defeated lady Shiva, stalemated Richard dragon, took out league of shadows in a matter of few seconds, and its leader Ra's who is basically immortal and has more exp than him in a close fight.

I'm afraid half of that never happened. I don't expect you to ever come back and post feats anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

@rolandalderas: Bucky could but not Red Hood. Dick has already beaten Jason and I don't see why this would be different.

But again I think this comes down to teamwork and the gun team doesn't have any. All the bats have always fought together and cap and the marvel guys are skilled and smart enough to fit right in without missing a beat.

There is no way deathstroke will accept an order from punisher or winter soldier

Gunmen, considering most/all are very well accomplished fighters as well.

@nickzambuto: read some of his comics as i said earlier.just because you haven't read the comics, please don't tell others who have actually taken the pains to buy and read it ,that events in those never happened. Thats plain commonsense,and this shows how intelligent you are, grammar Nazi.

BTW, I don't find it worthy to debate with you anymore. Adioz, and read some comics.

Name the issues where he performed those feats then. As far as I know he's never beaten Bane on venom, he's never beaten Deathstroke besides the time he suckerpunched him with a rifle (hardly skillful), he's never defeated Lady Shiva except when she was mind controlled, and he's never beaten the entire League of Shadows in a matter of seconds. In fact, it's called the League of Assassins, Shadows was from the movie. Shows what you know Mr. hardcore comic reader, looks like you're getting all your info from the movies and things you heard on the internet without knowledge of context.

I don't understand this obsession with separating New 52 Batman and pre New 52 Batman. They are the same character. The vast, vast majority of his continuity is intact. So allowing only New 52 feats is kind of strange.

@nickzambuto: If we could use Batman feats from his whole career (and we should be able to since he and New 52 Batman are the same guy) Solid Snake and Batman are not close in h2h, no. Batman won't humiliate him or treat him like a joke, but Batman is plainly more skilled, and he would defeat Snake h2h without a knock down drag out.

@nickzambuto: just because I misspelled the name, that makes me the guy getting his info from movie? And yes, agreed on Shiva. But she had put a good fight. Plus how about ra's defeat at his hands?

I like league of shadows better. Its more cool, right?

And he took them swiftly than anyone else, that's the point.

He defeated talon, another immortal being.

He did take down a group of swat squad too,

And why do you think bat should take snake heads on? Guys a master of stealth, too. He can probably stealth takedown snake.

Edit: given this setting, stealth is highly likely. Of course, snakes also a master of stealth.

Plainly better? Well obviously I disagree, so it's not as plain as you might think. Batman might beat Snake in H2H, but it'll be about as easily as he beats Ra's al Ghul - which isn't easy at all.

Unfortunately for all their potential, Ra's and Talon are pretty much featless. They're skilled, but not as skilled as most of Snake's enemies.

@nickzambuto: He has done pretty much all of those things....

Defeats Bane on full venom in Forever Evil Aftermath: Batman vs Bane #1 Also does it in Batwoman #24. I'll post both fights in their entirety if you wish, and in both fights he uses no gadgets. Well, he throws batarangs in Forever Evil at one point.

One shots Lady Shiva in Superman/Batman Public Enemies. There is literally no evidence mind control reduced her skill, all other villains fought under mind control were just as skilled. You could argue he was not holding back like he usually is, because he remembers what Shiva did to Catwoman in Batman: Hush when retrieving Talia.

He stalemates Richard Dragon in the Brave and the Bold #132. I believe he has done it other times, but can't remember.

Batman one shotted Deathstroke in Superman/Batman Annual #1. But it was a sneak attack. And in Detective Comics #710, he does not sucker punch him with his rifle. Batman gets the better of him then uses the rifle to finish him off. But Deathstroke knocked him down, not incapacitated or knocked him out, twice earlier in the issue, so even though Batman gets the last laugh, it's not his greatest showing.

And when Batman loses to Deathstroke in Deathstroke #7 and #8, he is trying to talk Slade down the whole time, so not going all out, and he doesn't use any gadgets the whole time. And when Deathstroke does win, he says Batman is the best he ever fought, and is noted to be spilling blood like it's going out of style. He is also shortly afterwards defeated by a random guy with no powers or special skills, who was sitting with hands bound in a freezer for hours. That is how badly injured he was.

As for League of Assassins, I'm not sure exactly what he is referring to, but Batman beat the Sensei's men (around a dozen of the best assassins of the world) in three seconds. He did have a small amp, the Suit of Sorrows, but still an impressive feat. And he has nonchalantly defeated large groups of League of Assassins members more times than I can count. In Batman #656 he is ambushed by a huge group of League man bats, and cripples at least 30 of them. Talia notes they are elite commandoes.

And those are not his best feats, I'm just proving they happened.

Hmm, good one. Leaning towards team 1

@thebourneposter: very well put down. Keep it up, man.

@thebourneposter: it's however maybe pointless to debate to him as he's never read batman..

Plus a wanker of old Snake.

@appzashok: I wouldn't insult him, but it does seem strange he could debate a Batman fight and believe he has never beaten Bane on venom.