#151 Posted by isaac_clarke (5733 posts) - - Show Bio

I completely understand that, but my counter point would be the Hulk was exactly where he wanted to be. He choose to guide his fall there and there wasn't likely any reason for him to leave that area. With no additional stimuli - he should return to the unconscious Banner. Is anything I'm saying here entirely unreasonable?

Theory:

Whatever effect the scepter had on the Hulk had worn off - either by the time the jet exploded on him (likely) or the time he hits the ground (less likely). At that point the Hulk would no-longer have any reason to remain the Hulk (calming down and reverting to an unconscious Banner - which is consistent with every depiction I can remember from the two films this Hulk has appeared in).

It seems consistent with every other depiction of the transformation / de-transformation.

#152 Edited by isaac_clarke (5733 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus said:

'Far better' is subjective and if anything people can't seem to bring up any worthwhile striking power feats that Thor didn't replicate hitting Cap's shield at the start of Avengers. Nice mention of an argument none of has ever seen as evidence of knowledge; but again not the point.

I read a lot of comics, just not "every comic" I doubt anyone outside of editors or people that let's just say have the time read "every comic" My comment was a general statement, historically everyone knows Superman has displayed far more impressive feats then Thor has. Superman has defeated or dealt with people who can blink and make abstracts disappear like Mxy, Spectre to name a few off hand. And I'd wager a Black Hole would do more damage then an abstract being...especially when half the time Thor's daddy helps him or relying on his little hammer. Superman does everything under his own power, no gimmicks to fly or daddy to rely on for power amps. Actually, a planet buster doesn't have to be the size of a planet. Again, if you watched the film Zod states this it would destroy the entire planet as well as Dr. Hamilton. Yeah...I'm thinking you didn't even watch it because this is common sense. Yeah a destructive machine that again was going to destroy Earth little by little. Talk to me when Thor or Hulk do that please not to mention KILLING another Kryptonian...no less

Far more impressive than Thor is subjective, especially when you're throwing an assortment of feats from various Supermen under the same name. At the end of the day the most 'impressive' Superman on panel wasn't Superman, but a robot. You telling about Mxy who arguably can't do what you say he can or the some mysterious showing against the Spectre where Superman does anything to him isn't worth mentioning. I'd wager you're wrong given the showings of the hammer decking beings who create or fly through black-holes effortlessly. Hell Thor's headbutt did more damage to the Surfer than any-black hole has ever done.

Are all the books pertaining to Thor you've read from the 80's or something? The only thing Odin has done to help Thor is preventing the universe from being destroyed by Surtur. As for a reliance on a hammer - that's straight out mythology - however not entirely accurate. Young Thor is an excellent example in this current run without Mjolnir.

I didn't say anything about the planet buster needing to be planet sized. I said you calling a planet buster - while what he flies through isn't nearly as impressive as what you claim the machine can do is a bit mute.

Try harder.

#153 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13329 posts) - - Show Bio

Haha so who didn't see this coming?

#154 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4760 posts) - - Show Bio

Not a chance. Thor alone can beat Superman for one reason alone: Mjolnir. Superman is susceptible to any form of magic. Mjolnir is a magical artifact. Therefore, getting a Mjolnir to the face would cause serious damage. Besides, Thor is arguably the strongest hero in the MU and a formidable foe for Superman even without Mjolnir (though I'm pretty sure in that case Superman would win).

So you take that and add an angry green killing machine, two guys in robotic armor suits who fly around shooting lazers, a genetically enhanced super soldier with one damn deadly frizbee and a cocky Norse God of illusion.

Yeah I think Superman is toast.

#155 Posted by GhostRider2 (3940 posts) - - Show Bio

Avengers.

#156 Posted by Buckshot (19356 posts) - - Show Bio

I completely understand that, but my counter point would be the Hulk was exactly where he wanted to be. He choose to guide his fall there and there wasn't likely any reason for him to leave that area. With no additional stimuli - he should return to the unconscious Banner. Is anything I'm saying here entirely unreasonable?

Theory:

Whatever effect the scepter had on the Hulk had worn off - either by the time the jet exploded on him (likely) or the time he hits the ground (less likely). At that point the Hulk would no-longer have any reason to remain the Hulk (calming down and reverting to an unconscious Banner - which is consistent with every depiction I can remember from the two films this Hulk has appeared in).

It seems consistent with every other depiction of the transformation / de-transformation.

I'm not saying you can't have counterpoints or theories, I'm just pointing out that you were presenting information that didn't support your position as if it did.

Now as to your counter point, I don't think it's unreasonable that Hulk might not feel like moving, but I also don't feel like it's unreasonable that he fell from a great height (one that, let's remember, SHIELD thought would kill him), and he got knocked out. It's an incredibly simple idea, one that is also in line with Hulk losing consciousness (usually through sleep) and reverting to Banner in other appearances. And while Hulk simply not moving also makes a sort of sense, I think, if he's trying to get away from people, him leaving that small town to go find some woods or something would have also made sense. If Hulk is trying so hard to avoid people, why not keep doing so instead of waiting where people found him shortly after? You have your thoughts, but it seems like people are generally of the opinion that Hulk got knocked out by the fall, and they're entitled to it.

@vaeternus said:

@isaac_clarke oh yes, because you've totally displayed proof that you read DC comics...because Superman has never done crazy things like destroyed galaxies, held black holes, flying through the sun etc that's not even scratching the service of Superman's crazy feats. But that is also previous versions of Superman, when has Thor done anything remotely that impressive recently though?

People are jumping the gun? Right...perhaps you didn't see MOS, perhaps if we were talking about the "Emo Singer" version of Superman, then I'd agree with you given how easily he was dooped by a mortal with or without green K, but MOS version seriously would mop handle the Avengers given feats of what we've seen so far. Because taking on two kryptonians, flying through a planet busting gravity machine and fighting and defeating, killing Zod isn't remotely impressive...right?

Well considering you likely don't read many comics, if any at all - it's a good bet I've read more DC books than you have; either way that doesn't matter here. An assortment of feats current Superman has never done or has indication of being able to do is also not worth mentioning in any argument of T:GOT VS S:MOS. If asking for the feat I referenced: Thor: God of Thunder #9, if your asking for an assortment of feats you just mentioned - no Thor hasn't been busting galaxies or holding black holes - just dropping abstracts with hammer tosses or busting planets.

Considering half a dozen people are trying to argue the Hulk was KOed by a fall off-screen based off nothing or arguing Thor less durable than Iron Man - that's jumping the space-shark. I didn't say anything about MOS' Superman not having impressive showings in his film - though unless the machine itself is as large as a planet - the planet busting adjective loses a bit impressiveness when saying Superman flies through it. You could cut it down to 'Superman flies through a very big / destructive machine'.

Don't mean to get on you, but you keep saying things that bring up questions for me. Maybe I'm mistaken or confused by the arrangement of your response, but it seems like you're citing Thor "dropping abstracts" and "busting planets" in the current issue of his comic. I don't recall him doing so, could you point it out to me? As far as I saw, Thor was able to drop Gorr, but he's not an abstract being, and the closest he got to "busting planets" was destroying small chunks of a moon that Gorr was throwing at him. One caption does mention "the shattering of worlds around him" but I wouldn't put that all on Thor, especially given that Gorr is the one that's been destroying planets, and because even if we credit Thor with the feat, we'd have to note that the effort he's expending that's producing this destruction is literally ripping him apart as he does it. His bones were rattling, his fingers cracking, and his muscles tearing. So even if it was Thor alone causing all that damage, it was far from an effortless display. On another note, my favorite displays in that fight were young Thor hitting Gorr so hard it made a wormhole, and king Thor blasting Gorr lightyears away. But that's just me.

The other thing was that I think "cutting it down" is an appropriate way to describe what you'd be doing if you state what Superman did as "flying through a very big/destructive machine". That's lowballing at its best. That description completely removes everything the machine was doing, which is the whole reason the feat was impressive. Superman didn't just fly through a machine, he flew through a machine that was somehow toying with gravity in such a way that it was forcing everything in the area of the beam into the ground. Superman flew in the face, not just of whatever that energy was, but against the force being exerted that was terraforming the planet. If the display on the other side of the planet was any indication, it was able to flatten quite a bit of a city. Superman didn't just fly through a machine, he flew through it with enough force to blow it apart, and did so against tremendous resistance, not to mention, being significantly weakened at the time because of the environment. "Superman flies through a very big / destructive machine" is the very picture of lowballing.

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#157 Edited by AngryHulks (3112 posts) - - Show Bio

Not a chance. Thor alone can beat Superman for one reason alone: Mjolnir. Superman is susceptible to any form of magic. Mjolnir is a magical artifact. Therefore, getting a Mjolnir to the face would cause serious damage. Besides, Thor is arguably the strongest hero in the MU and a formidable foe for Superman even without Mjolnir (though I'm pretty sure in that case Superman would win).

So you take that and add an angry green killing machine, two guys in robotic armor suits who fly around shooting lazers, a genetically enhanced super soldier with one damn deadly frizbee and a cocky Norse God of illusion.

Yeah I think Superman is toast.

Hulk have no resistance to magic, and technically Superman should have the same susceptibility to magic as much as Hulk. Yet Hulk took multiple blows from Mjolnir and still keep up the fight. If Thor's Mjolnir attack is all-magic, then he would punctured Captain America's shield already.

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#158 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4760 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: While the frost giant hammer strike IS impressive I have to take it with a grain of salt because...well it is a bunch of ice...

@risingbean said:

Superman wins. I keep wanting to say if Thor and Hulk can get him slowed down, they can pummel him. But that happened at one point with Zod's commander and big brute, and Supes was able to fight them off. Lack of air superiority and speed on the Avengers part lose this for them.

Though cannon fire from the jets knocked them around, and a missle KO's one, so maybe Hulk or Thor could KO him...Still if I had money on it, I'd go Superman.

It wasn't the missile that KO'd her. It was the overload of her senses due to the loss of her mask/helmet. She couldn't deal with the massive ambience of sounds/sights so she lost consciousness after she stopped the missile with one hand. Cannon fire from the jets only knocked them around because they didn't prepare for it even when they saw it coming. They just stood there nonchalantly like it didn't matter(it really didn't).

You seem to misunderstand... magic is one of Superman's weaknesses. Like Kryptonite (though I think magic isn't as bad as Kryptonite for him, it still weakens him).

#159 Edited by Vaeternus (9558 posts) - - Show Bio
@clark_el said:

Superman takes this.

Agreed.

@ the red viper guy, just because magic hurts Superman doesn't mean he can't take it or will lose automatically.....especially when Supes has shown greater feats then Thor has, this is movie versions and that also proves Thor is nothing without his Hammer made by Odin as we even seen. By the time Thor summons lightning Supes would have already blitzed him into 10 buildings.

@buckshot I totally agree, I think the fact that people think "it's merely a machine" is beyond lowballing the feat and just flat out wrong. It was pushing him downward and he was flying upward meaning he needed to amp his abilities and push his body literally right through it with enough force to demolish it(without heat vision which he probably could have done too) It pretty much demolished Metropolis as if a nuke hit...plus Faora even admitted they were planning to kill everyone, so for Supes to stop/fight 3 other fierce kryptonians without morals is another feat by itself.

@ Isaac_Clarke, Uhh, no "Far Better" as in factual...again Thor nor Hulk displayed anything remotely close to what Clark did in MOS, you try again...
You're in denial of the obvious things such as Zod's planet busting machine and Hulk being K.O.ed. Who cares if it happened off screen? Point is it happened. Period. But keep denying or ignoring this, sounds to me like you just won't admit you're wrong that's why you're quoting 20 people trying to justify it when you have no evidence of such.

Actually, it was Superman I'm not referring to his Robot. When has the Robot ever warped reality, destroyed galaxies, held Black holes or hurled Godly beings more powerful then him into the Sun or the Source Wall? And again that's only a few crazy feats he's done. So no the Robot hasn't demonstrated better feats. SS has dealt with Thor besides, when you have guys like Black Panther choking SS that's really not a worthy feat now is it? hmm?


Your typical abstract being isn't impressive and gets dooped by mortals like Dr. Doom not to mention Marvel has way more then DC(which proves nothing really), Superman has fought(if not defeated) abstract and more powerful beings then himself too, your point? Darkseid? Imperiex? Oracle? Spectre? Now only some of which are abstract but point is they're all more powerful then Superman,. And you did refer to that device as "a non planet buster" I said it doesn't have to be big or whatever your mind is imagining to be capable of destroying an entire planet...being my point. And that Hulk nor Thor has ever done such in Avengers...
I'm not even going to go on concerning the comic gig since there's various versions and one version of Superman who I already know would thrash any Thor, end of story so I'm not going to argue about that. But just answer this, who created Thor's primary weapon/hammer? That's all I want to know...since we all know he didn't create it himself.

#160 Posted by TheBournePoster (2356 posts) - - Show Bio

The only ones that Superman wouldn't kill by accident would be Thor and Hulk. Superman would then beat them down with relative ease.

#161 Edited by isaac_clarke (5733 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot said:

Now as to your counter point, I don't think it's unreasonable that Hulk might not feel like moving, but I also don't feel like it's unreasonable that he fell from a great height (one that, let's remember, SHIELD thought would kill him), and he got knocked out. It's an incredibly simple idea, one that is also in line with Hulk losing consciousness (usually through sleep) and reverting to Banner in other appearances. And while Hulk simply not moving also makes a sort of sense, I think, if he's trying to get away from people, him leaving that small town to go find some woods or something would have also made sense. If Hulk is trying so hard to avoid people, why not keep doing so instead of waiting where people found him shortly after? You have your thoughts, but it seems like people are generally of the opinion that Hulk got knocked out by the fall, and they're entitled to it.

I'm not saying that you're implying I can't and I've already acknowledged that's also true - the account doesn't imply either way is right. Albeit the fact the old man was acknowledging the Hulk was awake on impact (to extent controlling his trajectory) - seems to imply he was not unconscious even after landing. We were all already aware the jet's explosion didn't KO him - so the whole account about being awake by the old man seems kinda of pointless to mention at that point if he was just knocked out after landing.

I'm actually not sure Fury said anything about the fall killing the Hulk - just killing Loki - who thought it might kill Thor (a sentiment he seemed to agree with, at least inside the cage). I can't quite remember the Hulk in other appearances finding himself KOed by gravity - either way I don't think this conversation is really leading to any resolution; as far as I see it some peoplehere need to have that fall to KO the Hulk in order to justify some measure of superiority for Superman, while I really didn't any impression that was remotely implied or confirmed in the film.

Not to imply you are in the same camp.

@buckshot said:

I'll be honest it feels that way when your commenting on my post, compared to the guy talking about Superman effortlessly holding black holes (something that had him peel over pain holding something more like a wormhole) or destroy galaxies (magic silver age dust that makes Superman sneeze, another showing not under his own power) or implications that Superman can rock Mxy and the Spectre - all as justifications for how comic-book Superman can "murk" the Avengers.

I guess mine is a lonely fight when it comes down to steep exaggerations of Superman's ability here. : /

@buckshot said:

The reference in regards to dropping abstracts are the last two times Thor's encountered some iteration of Galactus (Avenger #5 (2010), The Mighty Thor #4) and the last confrontation with the PF before it reached earth (AVX #4). Admittedly he loses each encounter or only momentarily disables each abstract - but it defeats any implication that 'black-hole' that brought Superman to his knees is superior to Mjolnir strikes. I wasn't clear as I wanted to be when I said 'feat' so there you go, since these were out of his current book.

That's what I was referring to:

The fight that consisted of Thor hitting hard enough to have his bones rattle and harder with each next hit. Sure you could argue it's all hyperbole but we already have earlier in this series making the claim Mjolnir shatters planets like pepples and now this showing where Thor and Gorr's fight is causing the planetoids around them to shatter - Thor taking a break from this fight to prevent the destruction of the nearby planet (via that earth manipulation from Gaea's blood line in him). It's tough not to take that caption and run with it considering these showings on panel for me - maybe it's all Gorr's doing - I'm just not under that impression. If it was implying it was an effortless action on his part I apologize - that wasn't my intent. But it is still annoying to have MKF30 hear announce the superiority of Superman to the Avengers in comics despite many of the current having some showings that would make New 52 Superman blush.

Yeah I got that impression from your post in the 'most impressive battle of the week' given the outright insanity of it all - young Thor's appearance was hilariously awesome in this exchange with Gorr.

@buckshot said:

The other thing was that I think "cutting it down" is an appropriate way to describe what you'd be doing if you state what Superman did as "flying through a very big/destructive machine". That's lowballing at its best. That description completely removes everything the machine was doing, which is the whole reason the feat was impressive. Superman didn't just fly through a machine, he flew through a machine that was somehow toying with gravity in such a way that it was forcing everything in the area of the beam into the ground. Superman flew in the face, not just of whatever that energy was, but against the force being exerted that was terraforming the planet. If the display on the other side of the planet was any indication, it was able to flatten quite a bit of a city. Superman didn't just fly through a machine, he flew through it with enough force to blow it apart, and did so against tremendous resistance, not to mention, being significantly weakened at the time because of the environment. "Superman flies through a very big / destructive machine" is the very picture of lowballing.

MKF30 is trying to push Superman in MOS as being able to stand up to planet busting machines - his flare for exaggeration of the MOS prompts me to say - you could word that a bit different and still have more or less the same context. Maybe I'm low-balling, probably am- but I think it's more accurate than what MKF30's describing; again maybe I'm wrong. Albeit it's worth mentioning the man that defies gravity - defying a machine that manipulates planetary gravity is a bit of a mix reaction of a feat - weakened or not - it's akin to Returns lifting the 'island' of Kryptonite - Superman despite being 'weakened' powers through whatever circumstances regardless to save the day.

Certainly doesn't beat MKF30 lowballing of Thor has a character.

@buckshot I totally agree, I think the fact that he or anyone else who thinks "it's merely a machine" is beyond lowballing the feat. It was pushing him downward and he was flying upward meaning he needed to amp his abilities and push his body literally right through it with enough force to demolish it(without heat vision which he probably could have done too)

Made of quotes of what I or others have said. Tell me why the feats impressive without using the words 'planet busting!' - tell me why this feat is the pinnacle of why he wins. I'll wait.

#162 Edited by Vaeternus (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

Who's lowballing Thor? I just said if you take historic feats of both characters in comics, clearly Superman has more impressive feats overall. Obviously I'm taking every version of both characters into account. All we're saying are the facts that Superman in MOS clearly has showed more impressive feats vs. Thor/Hulk in Avengers. Period. You're trying to dispute that? I don't see many others here agreeing with that notion nor proof of such(will gladly watch them though). Oh and I already did but you really didn't seem to understand it so no use in repeating myself. Flare for exaggerating? So is that what you call obvious facts? lol Hmm How interesting. Besides, we're talking movie versions right? Ok...I'll await proof of why "Hulk and Thor" can best MOS. Do tell, I shall wait for proof since you disagree ;)

@thebourneposter said:

The only ones that Superman wouldn't kill by accident would be Thor and Hulk. Superman would then beat them down with relative ease.

Exactly.

#163 Edited by Buckshot (19356 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke said:

I'm not saying that you're implying I can't and I've already acknowledged that's also true - the account doesn't imply either way is right. Albeit the fact the old man was acknowledging the Hulk was awake on impact (to extent controlling his trajectory) - seems to imply he was not unconscious even after landing. We were all already aware the jet's explosion didn't KO him - so the whole account about being awake by the old man seems kinda of pointless to mention at that point if he was just knocked out after landing.

Saying Hulk was awake on impact does not at all imply he was unconscious after landing. That's like saying that because someone was alive before they were shot, it implies they were alive after. Him controlling his trajectory when he fell has nothing to do with his state afterward. As for it being pointless to mention, that's just silly. The entire point of him mentioning that was to tell Banner (though mostly the audience) that Hulk wasn't acting as a mindless killing machine, that he was as we see him earlier, a beast with some level of concern for others. The point goes beyond information that might be useful in a fight. Battles are fun to talk about, but other than AvsX, these stories are written for more than the slugfest.

I'm actually not sure Fury said anything about the fall killing the Hulk - just killing Loki - who thought it might kill Thor (a sentiment he seemed to agree with, at least inside the cage). I can't quite remember the Hulk in other appearances finding himself KOed by gravity - either way I don't think this conversation is really leading to any resolution; as far as I see it some peoplehere need to have that fall to KO the Hulk in order to justify some measure of superiority for Superman, while I really didn't any impression that was remotely implied or confirmed in the film.

The cage that Thor was in was built for Hulk. It was built to contain him so they could drop him so that he'd die on impact. Hulk didn't fall in the cage, but he fell from basically the same height. Fury thought, or hoped, such a fall would kill him. He may have been wrong, but this is part of why it wouldn't surprise me that Hulk was knocked out by something meant to kill him. I'm not using this to justify Superman in any way, I just don't see why Hulk getting knocked out is hard to accept.

@buckshot said:

I'll be honest it feels that way when your commenting on my post, compared to the guy talking about Superman effortlessly holding black holes (something that had him peel over pain holding something more like a wormhole) or destroy galaxies (magic silver age dust that makes Superman sneeze, another showing not under his own power) or implications that Superman can rock Mxy and the Spectre - all as justifications for how comic-book Superman can "murk" the Avengers.

I guess mine is a lonely fight when it comes down to steep exaggerations of Superman's ability here. : /

@buckshot said:

The reference in regards to dropping abstracts are the last two times Thor's encountered some iteration of Galactus (Avenger #5 (2010), The Mighty Thor #4) and the last confrontation with the PF before it reached earth (AVX #4). Admittedly he loses each encounter or only momentarily disables each abstract - but it defeats any implication that 'black-hole' that brought Superman to his knees is superior to Mjolnir strikes. I wasn't clear as I wanted to be when I said 'feat' so there you go, since these were out of his current book.

So you're using questionable feats in order to respond to someone else's questionable feats? Whatever floats your boat, but I'm glad to see you weren't referring to his current book.

That's what I was referring to:

The fight that consisted of Thor hitting hard enough to have his bones rattle and harder with each next hit. Sure you could argue it's all hyperbole but we already have earlier in this series making the claim Mjolnir shatters planets like pepples and now this showing where Thor and Gorr's fight is causing the planetoids around them to shatter - Thor taking a break from this fight to prevent the destruction of the nearby planet (via that earth manipulation from Gaea's blood line in him). It's tough not to take that caption and run with it considering these showings on panel for me - maybe it's all Gorr's doing - I'm just not under that impression. If it was implying it was an effortless action on his part I apologize - that wasn't my intent. But it is still annoying to have MKF30 hear announce the superiority of Superman to the Avengers in comics despite many of the current having some showings that would make New 52 Superman blush.

Yeah I got that impression from your post in the 'most impressive battle of the week' given the outright insanity of it all - young Thor's appearance was hilariously awesome in this exchange with Gorr.

I wasn't arguing that it was hyperbole, just disagreeing with attributing "planet busting" feats solely to Thor when he's fighting someone that was ripping apart a moon all his own earlier and when Thor's attacks were literally ripping his own body apart. And now this Gaea thing? Why are you inserting Earth manipulation into this? You reacted strongly to other people speculating but now you're bringing in Earth manipulation and gaea when none of that was referenced. What we are clearly shown is Thor exerting strength and controlling lightning. Why add to that for no reason?

@buckshot said:

The other thing was that I think "cutting it down" is an appropriate way to describe what you'd be doing if you state what Superman did as "flying through a very big/destructive machine". That's lowballing at its best. That description completely removes everything the machine was doing, which is the whole reason the feat was impressive. Superman didn't just fly through a machine, he flew through a machine that was somehow toying with gravity in such a way that it was forcing everything in the area of the beam into the ground. Superman flew in the face, not just of whatever that energy was, but against the force being exerted that was terraforming the planet. If the display on the other side of the planet was any indication, it was able to flatten quite a bit of a city. Superman didn't just fly through a machine, he flew through it with enough force to blow it apart, and did so against tremendous resistance, not to mention, being significantly weakened at the time because of the environment. "Superman flies through a very big / destructive machine" is the very picture of lowballing.

MKF30 is trying to push Superman in MOS as being able to stand up to planet busting machines - his flare for exaggeration of the MOS prompts me to say - you could word that a bit different and still have more or less the same context. Maybe I'm low-balling, probably am- but I think it's more accurate than what MKF30's describing; again maybe I'm wrong. Albeit it's worth mentioning the man that defies gravity - defying a machine that manipulates planetary gravity is a bit of a mix reaction of a feat - weakened or not - it's akin to Returns lifting the 'island' of Kryptonite - Superman despite being 'weakened' powers through whatever circumstances regardless to save the day.

Certainly doesn't beat MKF30 lowballing of Thor has a character.

Personally, I wouldn't talk about anyone else's flare for exaggeration if I were you, but whatever. And you're certainly low balling. As I said, you removed EVERYTHING the machine was doing, which was made the feat at all difficult. And now you're trying to low ball in a new way by suggesting its less impressive because Superman can already defy gravity. Even if the film didn't (foolishly, in my opinion) try to connect flight with strength, it's clear in that scene that the gravity is not something he can simply negate, but it's something working against him. Even when he's standing and moving up, it's clear that he is overcoming a great weight on him, not simply floating without resistance, and the kind of destruction caused by the device is shown on the other side of the planet, and yet Superman is only slowed by it, not overcome.

@vaeternus said:
@buckshot I totally agree, I think the fact that he or anyone else who thinks "it's merely a machine" is beyond lowballing the feat. It was pushing him downward and he was flying upward meaning he needed to amp his abilities and push his body literally right through it with enough force to demolish it(without heat vision which he probably could have done too)

Made of quotes of what I or others have said. Tell me why the feats impressive without using the words 'planet busting!' - tell me why this feat is the pinnacle of why he wins. I'll wait.

You can go back to whoever it was you were talking to, I think I'm good.

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#164 Edited by never give up (10957 posts) - - Show Bio
#165 Posted by Buckshot (19356 posts) - - Show Bio

Who's lowballing Thor? I just said if you take historic feats of both characters in comics, clearly Superman has more impressive feats overall. Obviously I'm taking every version of both characters into account. All we're saying are the facts that Superman in MOS clearly has showed more impressive feats vs. Thor/Hulk in Avengers. Period. You're trying to dispute that? I don't see many others here agreeing with that notion nor proof of such(will gladly watch them though). Oh and I already did but you really didn't seem to understand it so no use in repeating myself. Flare for exaggerating? So is that what you call obvious facts? lol Hmm How interesting. Besides, we're talking movie versions right? Ok...I'll await proof of why "Hulk and Thor" can best MOS. Do tell, I shall wait for proof since you disagree ;)

@thebourneposter said:

The only ones that Superman wouldn't kill by accident would be Thor and Hulk. Superman would then beat them down with relative ease.

Exactly.

looks like you're getting a little heated, perhaps you should chill out

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#166 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (5061 posts) - - Show Bio

Supes clears this with little to know effort

#167 Edited by Vaeternus (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot: lol im good dude just a little tired of isaacs constant obsession with me or my alias but hey ultimately i agree with you, im merely asking the guy for proof of why the avengers movie wise can take on mos.

As for the sa feats i noticed the black hole etc i just want to confirm i never said he did it effortlessly he was clearly having a rough time. But was also the only person strong enough to do such in that arch. The mxy dust provoked supes nose the magic dust, i was just saying it was supes feat of the sa or one of many.

#168 Posted by TheBournePoster (2356 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot: That was my first post in this topic, and a mere statement of fact, not anger.

#169 Posted by RAC14 (33 posts) - - Show Bio

saw movie today supes win. he was not ko when he fell from space and escaped a mini black hole. before this movie avengers was my favourite super hero movie. he is too fast for them. in avengers thor was concerned about falling from the hellicarrier and jus before it hit the ground he broke out to break his fall. the only area in which any avenget has the advantage over supes would be energy projection due to thor.

#170 Posted by isaac_clarke (5733 posts) - - Show Bio

Who's lowballing Thor? I just said if you take historic feats of both characters in comics, clearly Superman has more impressive feats overall. Obviously I'm taking every version of both characters into account. All we're saying are the facts that Superman in MOS clearly has showed more impressive feats vs. Thor/Hulk in Avengers. Period. You're trying to dispute that? I don't see many others here agreeing with that notion nor proof of such(will gladly watch them though). Oh and I already did but you really didn't seem to understand it so no use in repeating myself. Flare for exaggerating? So is that what you call obvious facts? lol Hmm How interesting. Besides, we're talking movie versions right? Ok...I'll await proof of why "Hulk and Thor" can best MOS. Do tell, I shall wait for proof since you disagree ;)

Implications that Thor is in constant need of his father's aid or completely reliant on his hammer to do anything:

especially when half the time Thor's daddy helps him or relying on his little hammer. Superman does everything under his own power, no gimmicks to fly or daddy to rely on for power amps

Is low-balling him as a character - with a pinch of acknowledging you haven't read a book featuring Thor in months. Out of the three books that feature him - two of them have had a young Mjolnirness Thor accomplish plenty without his hammer. Then you turn around talking about how Superman floors the Avengers, talking about a Silver Age showing that required plot dust or a showing where he's struggling to stand up in pain after grabbing a wormhole.

Stop asking yourself questions and answer mine; without the use of 'planet busting' tell me why the feat with the machine was impressive. It's not hard or a particularly difficult question.

That's honesty just how he writes. It's all one erratic ball of yarn.

ol im good dude just a little tired of isaacs constant obsession with me or my alias but hey ultimately i agree with you, im merely asking the guy for proof of why the avengers movie wise can take on mos.

As for the sa feats i noticed the black hole etc i just want to confirm i never said he did it effortlessly he was clearly having a rough time. But was also the only person strong enough to do such in that arch. The mxy dust provoked supes nose the magic dust, i was just saying it was supes feat of the sa or one of many.

Such a constant obsession I can predict days in advance you will post in it. Just to clarify:

because Superman has never done crazy things like destroyed galaxies, held black holes, flying through the sun etc that's not even scratching the service of Superman's crazy feats.

According to you Superman's busting galaxies, holding black holes and ... flying through the sun!!! Throwing around 'feats' from various iterations of Superman with zero context to argue superiority to the Avengers.

#171 Posted by Fifthchild (648 posts) - - Show Bio
@buckshot said:

Now as to your counter point, I don't think it's unreasonable that Hulk might not feel like moving, but I also don't feel like it's unreasonable that he fell from a great height (one that, let's remember, SHIELD thought would kill him), and he got knocked out. It's an incredibly simple idea, one that is also in line with Hulk losing consciousness (usually through sleep) and reverting to Banner in other appearances. And while Hulk simply not moving also makes a sort of sense, I think, if he's trying to get away from people, him leaving that small town to go find some woods or something would have also made sense. If Hulk is trying so hard to avoid people, why not keep doing so instead of waiting where people found him shortly after? You have your thoughts, but it seems like people are generally of the opinion that Hulk got knocked out by the fall, and they're entitled to it.

Banner completely didnt think the idea that the fall/device would kill the Hulk was credible at all and the scene certainly wasnt played out as if Hulk was in any danger. Contrast that with the scene of Thor falling while in the trap or Iron Man falling out of the wormhole where its made very obvious that we are to believe they are at risk of serious injury or even death.

Hulk wasnt trying to get away from people - the point of the scene (which was longer but trimmed down for release) was that the Hulk might not be as bad a guy as Banner had convincd himself. Hence the security guard pointing out that Hulk seemed to avoid landing in a populated area.

I cant offer any rock solid proof that Hulk didnt get knocked out - we didnt see what happened - but i dont think theres much to suggest he was. Heres some reasons i dont think we are meant to believe he did:

  1. Banner didnt think the SHIELD trap would kill the Hulk (and despite how it doesnt really make sense the SHIELD trap was obviously intended to be more deadly than a plain fall in and of itself)
  2. We dont even know that Hulk would revert to Banner when knocked out. It has happened in the comics but its outnumbered by the times he stayed the Hulk.
  3. On the other hand we have seen Hulk just lie down, fall asleep and wake upas Banner in the main Marvel movie universe continuity
  4. The transformation was triggered by Loki's scepter, Banner's resentment of the Black Widow and Thor's intervention. None of those were factors anymore.
  5. We are told that Hulk was apparently lucid and calm enough to try and avoid hurting people.
  6. We are told by the security guard that the Hulk was awake when he came through the roof. Given that this would have happened in a split-second before he hit the ground this implies to me that the guard would have had to see a conscious Hulk post landing to be sure of that.
  7. From a storytelling perspective the line was probably there to tell us that Hulk was OK IMO - as stated we already knew he wasn't unconscious before
  8. Hulk fell from fairly significant heights without injury or fear of injury earlier. Though nowhere near 30,000 feet of course, terminal velocity means that the speed of impact maxes out - after a fall of about 500 meters for your average human apparently.

Arguments in favour of the "Hulk was knocked out" camp:

  1. Hulk apparently didnt get up and do anything else after he fell to Earth.
  2. We dont know that he wasnt knocked out.

I wouldnt agree that "people are generally of the opinion that Hulk was KOed" either. Perhaps on this forum/thread but i think this isnt exactly the most "Hulk friendly" place and his abilities arent held in much esteem hereabouts. Im not sure that your average member of the general public got the same impression.

Still i agree that people are free to make up their own mind on the scene and naturally most people will be drawn to the interpretation that best suits them.

#172 Edited by Buckshot (19356 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot said:

Now as to your counter point, I don't think it's unreasonable that Hulk might not feel like moving, but I also don't feel like it's unreasonable that he fell from a great height (one that, let's remember, SHIELD thought would kill him), and he got knocked out. It's an incredibly simple idea, one that is also in line with Hulk losing consciousness (usually through sleep) and reverting to Banner in other appearances. And while Hulk simply not moving also makes a sort of sense, I think, if he's trying to get away from people, him leaving that small town to go find some woods or something would have also made sense. If Hulk is trying so hard to avoid people, why not keep doing so instead of waiting where people found him shortly after? You have your thoughts, but it seems like people are generally of the opinion that Hulk got knocked out by the fall, and they're entitled to it.

Banner completely didnt think the idea that the fall/device would kill the Hulk was credible at all and the scene certainly wasnt played out as if Hulk was in any danger. Contrast that with the scene of Thor falling while in the trap or Iron Man falling out of the wormhole where its made very obvious that we are to believe they are at risk of serious injury or even death. Seeing as getting knocked out isnt a serious problem, I wouldn't expect the same level of drama, so it not being there doesn't really factor into it for me. I'm with Banner in thinking the fall wouldn't kill Hulk, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't knock him out.

Hulk wasnt trying to get away from people - the point of the scene (which was longer but trimmed down for release) was that the Hulk might not be as bad a guy as Banner had convincd himself. Hence the security guard pointing out that Hulk seemed to avoid landing in a populated area. I don't think he was trying to get away from people entirely, that was isaac clarke's theory. I'm aware of the point of the scene. This is how I phrased it to isaac "The entire point of him mentioning [the way Hulk aimed his fall] was to tell Banner (though mostly the audience) that Hulk wasn't acting as a mindless killing machine, that he was as we see him later, a beast with some level of concern for others."

I cant offer any rock solid proof that Hulk didnt get knocked out - we didnt see what happened - but i dont think theres much to suggest he was. Heres some reasons i dont think we are meant to believe he did:

  1. Banner didnt think the SHIELD trap would kill the Hulk (and despite how it doesnt really make sense the SHIELD trap was obviously intended to be more deadly than a plain fall in and of itself) Again, it failing to kill him doesn't mean it couldn't knock him out, and it being designed to kill him, suggests it might do him some harm. Banner thinking something won't kill Hulk isn't actually support for it not knocking him out.
  2. We dont even know that Hulk would revert to Banner when knocked out. It has happened in the comics but its outnumbered by the times he stayed the Hulk. See below.
  3. On the other hand we have seen Hulk just lie down, fall asleep and wake upas Banner in the main Marvel movie universe continuity So we've seen that when Hulk loses consciousness he revers to Banner? Hmm...
  4. The transformation was triggered by Loki's scepter, Banner's resentment of the Black Widow and Thor's intervention. None of those were factors anymore. Hulk has maintained his form even after the trigger for his transformation has been removed.
  5. We are told that Hulk was apparently lucid and calm enough to try and avoid hurting people. How does that speak at all to his condition after impact? Him being purposeful in his fall doesn't mean he couldn't get knocked out by the impact.
  6. We are told by the security guard that the Hulk was awake when he came through the roof. Given that this would have happened in a split-second before he hit the ground this implies to me that the guard would have had to see a conscious Hulk post landing to be sure of that. He wouldn't have. Hulk is not typically quiet. Hulk could have made noise as he fell. Just because seeing Hulk awake might give him that information, it doesn't mean he had to see him awake.
  7. From a storytelling perspective the line was probably there to tell us that Hulk was OK IMO - as stated we already knew he wasn't unconscious before We already know the purpose of the statement, to clue Banner and the viewer in to how the Hulk works if they didn't already know.
  8. Hulk fell from fairly significant heights without injury or fear of injury earlier. Though nowhere near 30,000 feet of course, terminal velocity means that the speed of impact maxes out - after a fall of about 500 meters for your average human apparently. Even if you could say Hulk fell from the same height and was ok, which you've stated you can't, it still wouldn't really matter given that people can be hit in the head and get knocked out some times but not others. If he fell from the height and walked it off once, it doesn't mean he always wood.

Arguments in favour of the "Hulk was knocked out" camp:

  1. Hulk apparently didnt get up and do anything else after he fell to Earth.
  2. We dont know that he wasnt knocked out.
  3. Hulk changes when he loses consciousness.
  4. A fall designed to kill him might actually have hurt him.

I wouldnt agree that "people are generally of the opinion that Hulk was KOed" either. Perhaps on this forum/thread but i think this isnt exactly the most "Hulk friendly" place and his abilities arent held in much esteem hereabouts. Im not sure that your average member of the general public got the same impression. I actually don't know (or that much care) what other people's opinions on this are, but isaac was going on about how "half a dozen" people are arguing with him about how the hulk was knocked out and then going on about how everyone is against him, it seemed to me that the general opinion was that Hulk got knocked out so I went with it. It's not like I was using other people's opinions to validate anything, just saying to him that people have this thought and they are free to. The actual percentage of people who have that thought doesn't actually matter in this case.

Still i agree that people are free to make up their own mind on the scene and naturally most people will be drawn to the interpretation that best suits them.

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#173 Edited by Vaeternus (9558 posts) - - Show Bio
#174 Edited by Fifthchild (648 posts) - - Show Bio

horrible formatting ahead...

@buckshot said:

Banner completely didnt think the idea that the fall/device would kill the Hulk was credible at all and the scene certainly wasnt played out as if Hulk was in any danger. Contrast that with the scene of Thor falling while in the trap or Iron Man falling out of the wormhole where its made very obvious that we are to believe they are at risk of serious injury or even death. Seeing as getting knocked out isnt a serious problem,

I wouldn't expect the same level of drama, so it not being there doesn't really factor into it for me. I'm with Banner in thinking the fall wouldn't kill Hulk, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't knock him out.

Getting KOed implies some threat at least. I'm not saying there wasnt quite the same level of drama - there was none. The scene was played entirely for laughs.

Still I agree it doesnt mean it couldnt have KOed him but this is just one of a bunch of points that paint a picture that tends to indicate Hulk not being KOed by the fall IMO.

Hulk wasnt trying to get away from people - the point of the scene (which was longer but trimmed down for release) was that the Hulk might not be as bad a guy as Banner had convincd himself. Hence the security guard pointing out that Hulk seemed to avoid landing in a populated area.

I don't think he was trying to get away from people entirely, that was isaac clarke's theory. I'm aware of the point of the scene. This is how I phrased it to isaac "The entire point of him mentioning [the way Hulk aimed his fall] was to tell Banner (though mostly the audience) that Hulk wasn't acting as a mindless killing machine, that he was as we see him later, a beast with some level of concern for others."

Fair enough.

I cant offer any rock solid proof that Hulk didnt get knocked out - we didnt see what happened - but i dont think theres much to suggest he was. Heres some reasons i dont think we are meant to believe he did:

1 Banner didnt think the SHIELD trap would kill the Hulk (and despite how it doesnt really make sense the SHIELD trap was obviously intended to be more deadly than a plain fall in and of itself)

Again, it failing to kill him doesn't mean it couldn't knock him out, and it being designed to kill him, suggests it might do him some harm. Banner thinking something won't kill Hulk isn't actually support for it not knocking him out.

It being designed to kill him doesnt suggest much of anything IMO - its not like SHIELD had tons of Hulks to test it on or much idea of the full extent of his power. Witness the shock on Fury et al's face when Banner is telling them about his failed attempt at suicide.

As an aside i dont think the main benefit of the Hulk cage was that it might kill Banner/Hulk. If that was SHIELD's intention far easier to try and assasinate Banner himself. The obvious advantage would be that its a very quick and efficient way to remove a rampaging Banner/Hulk from the helicarrier before they could do the sort of damage that Hill/Fury were so worried about.

We dont even know that Hulk would revert to Banner when knocked out. It has happened in the comics but its outnumbered by the times he stayed the Hulk.

See below.

On the other hand we have seen Hulk just lie down, fall asleep and wake upas Banner in the main Marvel movie universe continuity

So we've seen that when Hulk loses consciousness he revers to Banner? Hmm...

You've got that entirely backwards. We've seen that when Hulk reverts to Banner he loses consciousness. i.e. reversion to Banner causes loss of consciousness.

But we havent in fact seen the opposite.

The transformation was triggered by Loki's scepter, Banner's resentment of the Black Widow and Thor's intervention. None of those were factors anymore.

Hulk has maintained his form even after the trigger for his transformation has been removed.

Not sure what you are saying here. Its just more evidence that there was no real reason for the Hulk to be around or for Banner to feel endagered/angered.

We are told that Hulk was apparently lucid and calm enough to try and avoid hurting people.

How does that speak at all to his condition after impact? Him being purposeful in his fall doesn't mean he couldn't get knocked out by the impact.

I thought this was obvious but it speaks to his state of mind - he apparently wasnt raging, incoherent or generally in a terribly Hulk-like state of mind. All of which makes the idea that he might revert to Banner as soon as he was out of immediate danger kind of plausible.

We are told by the security guard that the Hulk was awake when he came through the roof. Given that this would have happened in a split-second before he hit the ground this implies to me that the guard would have had to see a conscious Hulk post landing to be sure of that.

He wouldn't have. Hulk is not typically quiet. Hulk could have made noise as he fell. Just because seeing Hulk awake might give him that information, it doesn't mean he had to see him awake.

Again I never said it was proof but its more circumstantial evidence that suggests Hulk was conscious.

From a storytelling perspective the line was probably there to tell us that Hulk was OK IMO - as stated we already knew he wasn't unconscious before

We already know the purpose of the statement, to clue Banner and the viewer in to how the Hulk works if they didn't already know.

Hulk fell from fairly significant heights without injury or fear of injury earlier. Though nowhere near 30,000 feet of course, terminal velocity means that the speed of impact maxes out - after a fall of about 500 meters for your average human apparently.

Even if you could say Hulk fell from the same height and was ok, which you've stated you can't, it still wouldn't really matter given that people can be hit in the head and get knocked out some times but not others. If he fell from the height and walked it off once, it doesn't mean he always wood.

No but it would be a pretty damn good piece of evidence in favour of one interpretation when compared to whats little there is in favour of another.

All of which brings up the point again that Hulk clearly landed on his ass which again makes the unconscious idea again a little bit less likely.

Arguments in favour of the "Hulk was knocked out" camp:

Hulk apparently didnt get up and do anything else after he fell to Earth.

We dont know that he wasnt knocked out.

Hulk changes when he loses consciousness.

Says who? We've never seen this in the Marvel movie universe. While its not part of Avengers continuity the only time Hulk did lose consciousness onscreen (in Ang Lee's film) he didnt revert to Banner.

A fall designed to kill him might actually have hurt him.

Sure. And much as you have pointed out something that might have hurt him may not have KOed him.

This also neglects the fact that, whether it makes sense or not (it doesnt really), it seems to be implied that the cage was supposed to make the fall more dangerous than a straight fall in the open atmosphere.

I wouldnt agree that "people are generally of the opinion that Hulk was KOed" either. Perhaps on this forum/thread but i think this isnt exactly the most "Hulk friendly" place and his abilities arent held in much esteem hereabouts. Im not sure that your average member of the general public got the same impression.

I actually don't know (or that much care) what other people's opinions on this are, but isaac was going on about how "half a dozen" people are arguing with him about how the hulk was knocked out and then going on about how everyone is against him, it seemed to me that the general opinion was that Hulk got knocked out so I went with it. It's not like I was using other people's opinions to validate anything, just saying to him that people have this thought and they are free to. The actual percentage of people who have that thought doesn't actually matter in this case.

Fair enough.

#175 Posted by Veshark (9291 posts) - - Show Bio

Not a chance. Thor alone can beat Superman for one reason alone: Mjolnir. Superman is susceptible to any form of magic. Mjolnir is a magical artifact. Therefore, getting a Mjolnir to the face would cause serious damage. Besides, Thor is arguably the strongest hero in the MU and a formidable foe for Superman even without Mjolnir (though I'm pretty sure in that case Superman would win).

So you take that and add an angry green killing machine, two guys in robotic armor suits who fly around shooting lazers, a genetically enhanced super soldier with one damn deadly frizbee and a cocky Norse God of illusion.

Yeah I think Superman is toast.

That's a shaky point to build your argument on.

First off, pre-52 Superman was susceptible to magic, but it didn't automatically mean that he had zero resistance, or that he would lose. Secondly, there's nothing explicitly mentioning that MoS Superman is even susceptible to magic. You're saying that the sole reason why Thor alone can solo Superman is because of Mjolnir, and that it grants Thor an advantage enough to trump Superman's physical superiority?

Your entire argument hinges on a weakness that doesn't exist in this incarnation.

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#176 Edited by ssejllenrad (13028 posts) - - Show Bio

Broken Avengers neck everywhere. :D

#177 Posted by RBT (6086 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys gotta stop overestimating Man of Steel. He's impressive in the movie, no doubt and can beat everybody here in a solo match. But against team, he looses. Most of the guys supporting MOS are basing their argument on him speedblitzing everybody here. Yeah. Good luck seed blitz Iron Man or Thor. Or even Hulk. He easily jumps with a great speed and that has never caused him any problem. MOS has better strength feats than probably anyone here, but his durability was not impressive. He stumbled back when hit with a BULLET! A kryptonian was KOed by a explosion caused by a jet and a gas tank. MOS is not beating Hulk, who is very very durable(easily outclassing MOS) and Thor, IM together.

#178 Posted by RBT (6086 posts) - - Show Bio

In Round 2, kryptonians win.

#179 Posted by CosmosTyrant (501 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman all day. If you think Sups can't blitz anyone in this fight, then you din't see Superman and Zod fighting all over Metro going throw buildings and flying to space and back to Metro in mere moments.

#180 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4760 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@the_red_viper said:

Not a chance. Thor alone can beat Superman for one reason alone: Mjolnir. Superman is susceptible to any form of magic. Mjolnir is a magical artifact. Therefore, getting a Mjolnir to the face would cause serious damage. Besides, Thor is arguably the strongest hero in the MU and a formidable foe for Superman even without Mjolnir (though I'm pretty sure in that case Superman would win).

So you take that and add an angry green killing machine, two guys in robotic armor suits who fly around shooting lazers, a genetically enhanced super soldier with one damn deadly frizbee and a cocky Norse God of illusion.

Yeah I think Superman is toast.

That's a shaky point to build your argument on.

First off, pre-52 Superman was susceptible to magic, but it didn't automatically mean that he had zero resistance, or that he would lose. Secondly, there's nothing explicitly mentioning that MoS Superman is even susceptible to magic. You're saying that the sole reason why Thor alone can solo Superman is because of Mjolnir, and that it grants Thor an advantage enough to trump Superman's physical superiority?

Your entire argument hinges on a weakness that doesn't exist in this incarnation.

Don't underestimate Thor. He's just as (physically) strong as Superman, maybe Superman is stronger by just a small bit. Mjolnir holds a serious advantage for Thor, and I believe Thor can solo Superman. After a very long and exhausting fight for both sides, of course, and with the other Avengers and especially Hulk hanging around, I believe Superman would lose this one.

#181 Posted by Veshark (9291 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_red_viper

My issue isn't with whether or not Thor can defeat Superman. Whether or not he can actually solo Superman isn't what I'm pointing out. I'm saying that your argument explicitly states that Thor can solo Superman 'for one reason alone', that reason being Mjolnir being magical. I'm noting that this incarnation of Superman has not been stated to be susceptible to magic, making the entire foundation of your argument moot.

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#182 Posted by martyyy15 (1252 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane:

THe speed blitz from her was absolutley amazing.

#183 Edited by The_Red_Viper (4760 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: The original Superman is susceptible to magic, so I think we just have to assume that this incarnation is too. But if he isn't, his chances of taking on Thor just got a heck of a lot higher.

#184 Posted by Veshark (9291 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: The original Superman is susceptible to magic, so I think we just have to assume that this incarnation is too. But if he isn't, his chances of taking on Thor just got a heck of a lot higher.

The original Superman has frost breath too, but that doesn't mean we're including that here. We have to only take into account what this MoS incarnation has shown us. I'm just saying that if that's the main reason why you think Thor would beat Superman, I don't think it's a strong argument.

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#185 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4760 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: So it all falls down to whether Superman's got his weakness to magic or not. In case he does, I believe Thor would win after a very long fight. If he doesn't, Superman would, again after a long fight. That pretty much sums it up.

#186 Posted by Buckshot (19356 posts) - - Show Bio

Getting KOed implies some threat at least. I'm not saying there wasnt quite the same level of drama - there was none. The scene was played entirely for laughs.

Your argument that "no drama means no danger" simply doesn't work in these movies. A great example of that again involves the Hulk when he trashes Loki. Hulk basically solos the main villain and it's one of the funniest moments in the movie. A scene that, in other movies, might be dramatic turns into one of the most memorable gags o the film. Hulk getting knocked out when it doesn't really impact the plot isn't disproved by their not being drama.

Still I agree it doesnt mean it couldnt have KOed him but this is just one of a bunch of points that paint a picture that tends to indicate Hulk not being KOed by the fall IMO.

And I simply don't buy it as part of that picture being painted. The only people in the world who have a shot at figuring out a way to stop Hulk (other than Banner himself of course) and it suggests it couldn't even knock him out? Right now you're not even just saying that you don't think it would knock him out, you're saying that their ideas actually suggest he wouldn't be knocked out.

It being designed to kill him doesnt suggest much of anything IMO - its not like SHIELD had tons of Hulks to test it on or much idea of the full extent of his power. Witness the shock on Fury et al's face when Banner is telling them about his failed attempt at suicide.

No, it actually does suggest something. They think it might kill hulk, so it might hurt him. Thor was scared of the same fall, it suggests it might hurt him. What it certainly doesn't suggest, is that he won't be knocked out, despite what you wrote above.

As an aside i dont think the main benefit of the Hulk cage was that it might kill Banner/Hulk. If that was SHIELD's intention far easier to try and assasinate Banner himself. The obvious advantage would be that its a very quick and efficient way to remove a rampaging Banner/Hulk from the helicarrier before they could do the sort of damage that Hill/Fury were so worried about.

But it was presented as a way to kill Hulk, so these assumptions about SHIELDS intentions don't really gel with what was told to us.

You've got that entirely backwards. We've seen that when Hulk reverts to Banner he loses consciousness. i.e. reversion to Banner causes loss of consciousness.

But we havent in fact seen the opposite.

In what scenes do you actually see Hulk power down? I don't recall any. Saying he reverts to Banner and loses consciousness might be true, but I feel like the suggestion that when Hulk goes to sleep he wakes up as Banner, is not only there, but stronger, especially in the Ed Norton movie.

Not sure what you are saying here. Its just more evidence that there was no real reason for the Hulk to be around or for Banner to feel endagered/angered.

What I'm saying is that just because there's no reason for the Hulk to be around, it doesn't mean he simply disappears, as has been shown. Your position is that as soon as the danger passed, the Hulk would revert, and thats why Banner turns up in exactly the same spot that Hulk goes down. But we've seen Hulk remain Hulk after the thing that triggered him was no longer an issue. When he jumps across the country (several countries) in his own movie even though he's safe by then or when he takes Betty somewhere far and chills with her in a cave (before the lightning riles him up), are some examples.

I thought this was obvious but it speaks to his state of mind - he apparently wasnt raging, incoherent or generally in a terribly Hulk-like state of mind. All of which makes the idea that he might revert to Banner as soon as he was out of immediate danger kind of plausible.

I've already talked about why him reverting "as soon as he was out of immediate danger" is not supported throughout the movies, but even without that, this leap is still a leap, and your "kind of plausible" makes me think you know that already.

Again I never said it was proof but its more circumstantial evidence that suggests Hulk was conscious.

But again, it doesn't even suggest that. His state before a fall implies nothing about his state after one.

No but it would be a pretty damn good piece of evidence in favour of one interpretation when compared to whats little there is in favour of another.

It might, but you don't even have that, so saying what support you might have if you had additional evidence doesn't really help you. You have less support for your position than you think you do. For example, this is something that could be support if you had some other evidence, just like your last point was something that could be support if it actually implied what you think it does.

All of which brings up the point again that Hulk clearly landed on his ass which again makes the unconscious idea again a little bit less likely.

2 things here: How do you know he landed on his butt? Did you see him land in that position? Nope. Strangely enough, I'm pretty sure the only evidence you'd have that he landed on his butt would be the position that Bruce got up from, which, in my mind, only lends credence to the idea that he was knocked out when he landed. And even if he landed on his butt (though really I'd say back) it wouldn't suggest he couldn't be knocked out. The head doesn't have to be the first thing to be hit in order to be knocked out, and his head slamming into the ground right after his back crashed into the ground could still happen anyway.

This also neglects the fact that, whether it makes sense or not (it doesnt really), it seems to be implied that the cage was supposed to make the fall more dangerous than a straight fall in the open atmosphere.

I thought the cage was dumb until I thought about Thor in it. It being an enclosed space kept him from orienting and bracing himself in any way because he kept bouncing around. I still think it's dumb, but I'm trying to give them credit.

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#187 Edited by NeonGameWave (10833 posts) - - Show Bio

@cybrilious4 said:

@neongamewave: congrats! Did you catch a lot of Easter eggs?

I haven`t seen a lot of the Eater Eggs but I have a good idea of what those Easter Eggs might be and the significance they hold.

#189 Edited by Vaeternus (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave said:

@cybrilious4 said:

@neongamewave: congrats! Did you catch a lot of Easter eggs?

I haven`t seen a lot of the Eater Eggs but I have a good idea of what those Easter Eggs might be and the significance they hold.

Since you guys were on the subject lol here's all of them(including the Smallville References)

And one I'm shocked nobody mentioned, Dr. Emil Hamilton's assistant played Dr. Emil in Smallville...lol

But here's the rest.

http://screenrant.com/man-of-steel-movie-easter-eggs-trivia-comic-book-references/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_66859

@ isaac, lol you're a funny guy. For one, no it's not according to me it's fact. Again, if you read my previous post I asked you who made thor's hammer? you totally ignored that...lol shocker that already proves i'm right.
I need not have to read every thor book, again just stating the facts.


No, not according to me, it's according to fact pre new 52 superman has destroyed galaxies via the silver age, among other crazy feats flying through time, breaking time, space, universal barriers, then pre crisis holding black holes....which btw who cares if he was struggling or not, he still did it my point being, would you like me to post a superman respect topic showing these feats?Does hulk not struggle when he tries to lift a mountain? Did thor not bleed when hulk hit him in the face with his own hammer using his own arm against him?


Oh so in other words my counterpoints to you are "erratic" hmm perhaps you see facts and canon feats as "erratic"? That's not denial at all....


No, you're the one who disagrees one of the few in this entire thread thinking mos isn't superior when he really is to the avengers here so it's your job to prove me wrong and answer my question, i already proved my case posts ago your rebuttle was "superman flying through a gravity machine means nothing" even though it wasn't a typical machine and like @Buckshot already explained, you were merely lowballing a valid, impressive feat. I already explained why, try rereading my post.



You however have yet to explain your case, all you're doing is ranting about "mkf this, mkf that" that nobody cares about but you and saying how "erratic" my points are(to you perhaps, not to anyone else mind you)
Lastly, yeah i guess it's a cosmic coincidence how while i hardly post as often as i used to you happen to pop up addressing me in random forums, various topics....quoting me first, must I really prove this pattern of yours?
So anyway yeah, still waiting on that proof of how movie thor and hulk,avengers can keep up with mos. Try again.

#190 Posted by OceanicSS (38 posts) - - Show Bio

After watching MoS, I must say supes stomps. Everyone but Thor and Hulk are non factors. I love RDJ's Ironman, but not one of his armours can even touch him. As for durability, smashing a mountain to pieces and resisting an anti gravity beam in the face are more impressive feats than any of the avenger's.

#191 Posted by ComicStooge (16647 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

Superman.

Thor is the biggest threat. Hulk is kind of a threat, but honestly, I compare him to the big guy who Superman fought in Smallville with Faora. I would even argue that that guy was probably more durable and faster.

Wasn't that Non?

#192 Posted by Cybrilious4 (1990 posts) - - Show Bio
#193 Posted by ComicStooge (16647 posts) - - Show Bio
#194 Edited by ComicStooge (16647 posts) - - Show Bio

@cybrilious4: Actually no, the character Nam-Ek debuted a Superman comic in 1974. Dragon Ball started in 1984.

So it wasn't a reference to DBZ at all.

#195 Posted by Spiderman22 (133 posts) - - Show Bio
#196 Posted by Spiderman22 (133 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor hulk solo

#197 Posted by Bezza (4711 posts) - - Show Bio

We did have this contradiction in MOS that the Kryptonians were staggered by explosions/bullets on the one hand but then managed to wallop each other through various tower blocks and just get up without a scratch! anyone I don't think MOS on his own beats all the Avengers, no way! How does he actually put down the Hulk? Another thing that dawned on me was that MOS shows you can kill a Kryptonian by breaking his neck. What if Thor and Iron Man and Hulk gang up on supes and Hulk gets him in a neck hold, its game over superman, surely!!!

#198 Edited by Xaa (316 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor, hulk, avengers die against the MOS here

#199 Edited by ComicStooge (16647 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza said:

We did have this contradiction in MOS that the Kryptonians were staggered by explosions/bullets on the one hand but then managed to wallop each other through various tower blocks and just get up without a scratch! anyone I don't think MOS on his own beats all the Avengers, no way! How does he actually put down the Hulk? Another thing that dawned on me was that MOS shows you can kill a Kryptonian by breaking his neck. What if Thor and Iron Man and Hulk gang up on supes and Hulk gets him in a neck hold, its game over superman, surely!!!

Explosives only staggered them and knocked them over a little, it did no actual damage. Not to mention Hulk was hurt by bullets from an jet in the Avengers and Thor had to jump out on the way of those same bullets.

And Thor or Hulk can have their necks snapped just the same.

Superman showed greater strength and speed then anyone on the Avengers (Hulk and Thor included) and his heat vision, superior senses and flight make it even easier to declare him the winner...which, he is.

#200 Edited by cooljammy18 (1155 posts) - - Show Bio

Again, Superman cleans house.