Man of Steel vs The Avengers

I am getting really tired of this... Hulk did not get KO'd from the fall. The guy fell from a helicopter(as Bruce Banner btw) in the middle of changing into Hulk and was completely fine from the fall.

Sorry for the poor quality but it proves the point nonetheless, so i hope people will shut up about Hulk getting KO'd from something as silly as falling to the ground.

@raynorj:

Have you seen Avengers...

Superman from man of steel destroyed half of Metropolis

Superman's also much more ruthless (spoiler alert.....................................he killed Zod)

Supes wins

He wasn't Ko'd from the fall. I'm so sick of this. He was ko'd from the reversion back to Banner, just like he was in The Incredible Hulk when he woke up in Guatemala 1 day after his bout with Blonsky and his men.

Listen to the old man:

'YOU WERE AWAKE WHEN YOU FELL'

'BIG AND GREEN AND BUCK ASS NUDE.'

@thevarioty436: Sure, hard to believe this thread lasted 13 pages lol

@isaac_clarke: took some time off of this thread, chrismas wedding, great reception, and yeah i hope they keep going with the supervillains pub

"Nam-Ek was up in a couple of seconds - Clark sits out recovering for a lot longer. It's pretty evident that Nam-Ek's durability > Clark's in their short encounter." all this off screen speculations and assumptions don't really make up a strong argument, and he took three times more A10 bullets nam-ek did

"He was tossing around Frost Giants like ragdolls with the pointy end of Grungir in the flash-back and prevented Thor / Loki from being dragged into the singularity with one hand. The entire time Thor is under the impression that with his father's help they could wipe out the Frost Giants and Laufey himself preferred subterfuge twice to direct conflict with Odin - probably because even at his peak Odin took him down in single combat. We don't actually see what happens to the eye. I can give Laufey the benefit of the doubt as being superior among his race. Generally anyone who can materialize monsters / an army at the drop of the hat behind someone isn't exactly not impressive." he just broke a monster out of his ice hibernation, like a cacoon, and i guess i should make it clearer, odin hasn't performed any physical feats that are anymore impressive than the warriors or loki

"Both those shockwaves where from flying into / running into eachother. Thor was doing it by swinging his hammer into things." both supermans and thors clash was a strike of some kind, you didn't make it specific what kind of strikes, and thors lightning charged strike seems to be his most powerful strike, so all i did is compare both of their most powerful strike, as kal put both fists forward while he was flying, that is a strike, so what's the problem?

"When we're talking about monsters the size of buildings / plate armor more durable than whatever the helicarrier is made of we could take a reasonable guess - though 350 tons is way too generous. Whole body strength with one straight punch?" you do know how a punch works right, he didn't jab that levethian, he thrusted his whole body towards it and directed his strength through that one punch, all in all using his whole body strength to stop it in it's track, and i guess 350 is a bit too generous

"We don't see where Nam-Ek tosses the locomotive from (or even him tossing it - just it flying into Clark's direction), which if Clark was sporting similar strength he would have just caught it." there is a difference between speculation and common sense, of course nam-ek threw that, he just got punched into a train, who else could do that, and how would it made sense if anyones else did that, common sense man, and yes you see in the scene where it shows a plane ejecting a rocket, in the far distance you see a smoke trail and a glimpse of the locomotive flying through the air, you know he threw that but now because nam-ek has a feat on par with the hulks your trying to debunk it lol and physics doesn't work like that, he didn't prepare for that, and the force of the locomotive tripples when falling at that angle

"He sees the ground in-front of him being blown to bits and tries to immediately fly out of the way - still getting hit. That isn't dodging." again it's on the screen, you can slow it down, see it frames and see that he dodged a bullet, i don't deny he got hit by the other three that followed

"I'm impressed. He literally stalks a car-jacker in the following video, appearing inside and outside the vehicle running circles around our eyes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nURhc_maQFg" this is a bit ridiculous, you know that right, spiderman just went off screen, that's all.

"We're going to have to agree to disagree. The speed Faora went at in fights was completely visible to the naked eye (props to the director for that), allowed soldiers to mindless empty their guns firing at her and she never reacts to anything remotely as fast as a bullet." as you said, she allowed it, she reacted to the A10 fire, so fast you had to show in frames just to get conformation that she wasn't hit, you don't need to admit it, batman is fast as spiderman now, and they must both be faster than faora because they moved so fast off-screen

"They are just entering Earth's atmosphere 1:52 and then magically appear below the clouds at 1:57. There is no inbetween, simply a cut that destroys any chance of actually identifying how fast they're moving on and off Earth" right but wrong, you hear them brake into the atmosphere at 1:55 appearing through the clouds at 1:57 all in continuous flow

"The difference is you're making things up out of no-where or just saying completely nonsensical things about gravity to begin with." lol please, i could have a collection of 'out of knowhere' things you've come up with (e.g lighting is a heat durability feat for thor)

"We're going to have to disagree because that's wrong. Flying in a straight lines doesn't show manueverability." your basically biased in this part of the argument, so many examples of him doing more than flying in straight lines, first flight, zod fight, world engine fight, superman saves, nam-ek fight, but okay

"You're confusing the Hulk for Superman." nope not at all "Because Superman's rescue consisted of another straight line flight catch." he did fly in one direction but doing a forward role catching a guy in mid air is control over your body in the air, and what did thor do he got hit and landed in a straight line, you want another example then, how about the time he bullrush faora so hard her mask broke and he did some kind of cartwheel in superspeed and landed on his feet, sliding backwards

"People don't fall at an angle over buildings and into the ground. The rest of this comment is nonsense about how Superman + cliff = win" they do if they where already falling from that angle, superman + cliff doesn't mean win, superman + better flight control + stronger + more durable + faster= win

"He trashed Thor without issue and deflected Mjolnir with a punch. The Hulk was depicted no-where near that strong. Kurse was creating boulders and slamming Thor into solid rock creating Thor-sized holes." all have been in someway replicated by either a kryptonian or hulk, nothing they can't do

"Superman doesn't punch remotely faster and spends most of his own movie being a punching bag with next to nothing for reaction time." nope

"knocked out by getting swung so fast he turns into a blurr and smashed, then picked up and smashed again into the ground hard enough to break the ground structure, then get kicked by a guy who has enough leg strength to go at superspeed and jump high enough to travel long distances then getting clothslined, by a person with enough strength to throw him 100 meters into a bank, and smash a tanker into soldiers, and hold down kal who is stronger than all of them it seem (he stops nam-ek punch in mid swing, shows he's stronger then him)

No." yep.

"Totally when she dodged that... oh wait. But you must mean when she reacted to that... uh... Superman. And that's it" superman, the guy who bullrushes people at super speeds, and A10 bullets, that move as fast as um...A10 bullets

"Chitauri weapons are much slower than bullets. And he knocks the visor blast clear out of the way, which required precise timing that he pulls off without effort. You forgot the dash under the wing." no i haven't, i just don't need to acknowledge because i have nothing against it, it's genuinely one good reaction time...that can be replicated

"Dodging a handful of the attacks thrown at you throughout an entire film is terrible (lol the way you talk as if you've shown me more than 15 good examples of thors reaction time, don't make me laugh). And by dodging the World Engine's defenses you mean getting caught by them? (nope i mean actually dodging a clear number of attacks from the world engine, even getting grabbed that still shows impressive reaction timing) Nothing you're mentioning was faster than the Hulk's fist." so he can dodge hulk throughout the whole fight? and it's a handful of examples though roughly 15 mintues or less of combat that kal engaded in, if you want me to go search for every attack kal has ever dodged through out the whole movie, go watch it yourself, and try put your bias to a side, hulks fist is not faster than faora, zod world engine claws, bullets and speed dashes

"I missed Nam-Ek punching building sized monsters. No, Clark flew through the mountain top, namely why he's goes in at an angle. He crashed Zod into a staircase after a slow decent into Earth's atmosphere.(yep 12 seconds is very slow indeed)" if nam-ek is able to throw a 200ton locomotive a football field away i'm pretty sure he can punch a 200-250ton levethian hard enough to stop it in it's track, and it's not like hulks punches consist of the same power as every punch he dishes out, both thor and kal was hit by two very similar punches thrown by two very similarly powerful opponents, one had a nose bleed, the other...not a scratch, kal durability>thors

"Like farmer's crops, a cylinder and part of a gas-station." yeah and brick walls, banks, is that a low-end feat? you trying to low-ball it?

"And he was stabbed just before here: avenger thor vs loki" funny because his healing factor (according to you) is tremendous, surely he could heal from a stab wound, he had atleast 3 minutes to do so, and funny you should bring that fight up, because before he even got stabbed he was staggering and getting handled by loki, from 0:43 when loki smashed thor into some glass to 0:53 he was immobile, and this is against loki, even assuming he was holding back, he shouldn't be staggering by that, but he was

"Thor tackling the Hulk through a wall is a pretty amazing bullrush." it is, why do you acknowledge this but not acknowledge how amazing supermans bullrushes are? he pulled off the most biggest ones as well

"If Kryptonians had a notable healing factor snapping Zod's neck would have done nothing to kill him." (sigh) you don't heal if you can't send your brain signals that your hurt, snapping someones neck isn't a flesh wound or blunt force it is straight up finisher, and i have yet to see if any of the avengers can heal from that (and from what i've seen kryptonians heal from sunlight, that's a reasonable assumption i made there, since there is so much emphasis on the idea, but still an assumption)

"He was killed by a flick backhand from the Destroyer - he is then miraculously brought back in a thundering display unharmed." anyone can do that, he flat-lined, and was brought back by enough electric currents run through him, sound familiar to you? doctors do it all the time

"It's coming straight out of the sky and enveloping him." yeah giving him all his powers back, what's you point, and if the heat was as hot as you say it was, it should have destroyed ironmans armour, not run through it like an electric current, but again not a heat durability feat

" thors durability is higher than frost giants for sure but his endurance also shows he bleed from strong blunt attacks, and can be stabbed and multiple times implied he can be killed as odin keeps on reminding us asgardians aren't truly immortal, they can die, and all the close calls where there is worry Thor is gonna die, or his mother being able to die (one of the main asgardians)"

"I have no idea what you're talking about." you have a problem with me saying thor can die? it's obvious he can

"The beam of light isn't revealed to do anything (except destroy everything surrounding it), the Aether was turning Asgard (along with the rest of the realms) into Dark Matter in usage. (and?) It was sucking the life out of Foster and the host has to do the actual transformation of matter" what?

"The Hulk was going to kill Black Widow for no reason - him holding back against Thor seems unlikely and the later punch shows what kind of force Thor was dealing with while fighting the Hulk. Same with most comic fights" not my point, enraged hulk seems to have the same effect as normal hulk, doesn't effect how hard it punches him, just exaggeration to make the punch sound harder by saying enraged

@wardemon32: Have you? Or are you trolling?

@rudebomberboy01:"I wasn't making a case for the gods in the Immortals movie. I was simply giving you examples of superior superhuman combat speed." Understood

"People coming in with 'MoS speedblitz' should sit back and realize that their combat speed was no faster than any of the Avengers" yes people do need to calm down, none of the kryptonians has shown they can punch someone 20 times in a second and need to understand kryptonians can be tagged, they are not untouchable, however people also need to realize that none of the avengers have shown combat speed on the same level of when faora speed punted those soldiers.

"If you did the calculations of how fast the gods were moving in the video, it would end up being faster than any MoS Kryptonian/MCU character has ever shown" i agree

"I don't understand the rest of what you're trying to say, maybe you can break it down a little bit neater next time, please" my pleasure. i'm assuming you meant this part of my post

"they have shown super-human combat speed, the majority would agree with me, they have shown speed in combat so well, people would say without thinking "MOS SPEEDBLITZ" even though none of the kryptonians haven't shown they can speed blitz, zack snyder (director of MOS) was the boss of slow motion combat, he wanted to try something different and it worked, oh and by the way, there is no human on earth that can replicate some of combat speeds kryptonians went in, so i wouldn't call that average" let me break this part down for you...

"They were fighting at speeds no faster than an average human could" i can assure you, no human being can replicate speed feats like, speed punting by faora, or dodging A10 fire like faora, or punching someone whose 15meters away in under 1second by superman, it cannot be replicated by any human being, if so, show me

"It's really simple, if they wanted to show-off the Kryptonians' superhuman combat speed, there are thousands of other ways they could've done it, but they didn't."

My first point is zack snyder was the director of man of steel, in his earlier films he was known to use slowmotion in combat very regularly and effectivley (300/watchmen/suckerpunch/owls of ga'hul) to emphasize speed or to capture moments that wouldn't be as effective in real-time motion, point being he was more than able to do it in other ways but he chose to do it in a different way. that was my first point made.

My second point is he showed kryptonian superhuman speed extremely well without the use of slowmotion, this is why people would say without thinking "MOS speedblitzes everyone!" because super speed was shown so well.

My third point is this is a shared DC universe they're creating, they can't just slow down time to show they can go fast as the gods in immortals because then it will be harder to differentiate other heroes speeds when they are fighting, how would they show how much more faster flash is effectively if they already made superman look so fast? the answer is they don't use slow motion, and just capture speed effectivley in real-time for all the kryptonians, and for flash they would use a different technique to show his speed

That's as clear as it gets, if you still don't understand, you just need to move on.

@raynorj: @rogueshadow:

@thevarioty436:

yes people do need to calm down, none of the kryptonians has shown they can punch someone 20 times in a second and need to understand kryptonians can be tagged, they are not untouchable, however people also need to realize that none of the avengers have shown combat speed on the same level of when faora speed punted those soldiers.

I don't think you understand what combat speed is.

they have shown super-human combat speed, the majority would agree with me

No, they haven't.

they have shown speed in combat so well

No.

people would say without thinking "MOS SPEEDBLITZ" even though none of the kryptonians haven't shown they can speed blitz

The Kryptonians never showed any speedblitz'ing in the entire movie, nor did they show the necessary speed to perform a blitz.

zack snyder (director of MOS) was the boss of slow motion combat, he wanted to try something different and it worked

Irrelevant. You don't know how he thinks, or what goes on in his mind. Irrelevant.

oh and by the way, there is no human on earth that can replicate some of combat speeds kryptonians went in, so i wouldn't call that average

Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Donnie Yen, Tony Jaa (in person) all have faster combat speed compared to the Kryptonians, and I'm not even kidding.

You don't know what combat speed is. I'll post examples of combat speed later on. The Kryptonians, when not moving in straight directions or performing speed tackles were no faster than average human beings.

i can assure you, no human being can replicate speed feats like, speed punting by faora

I already said the Kryptonians' speeds were great in straight lines. Not in combat which was piss-poor.

or dodging A10 fire like faora

Thor jumped out of the way of an F-22 Raptor's miniguns. Does he also have superhuman speed/reflexes?

punching someone whose 15meters away in under 1second by superman, it cannot be replicated by any human being, if so, show me

Not combat speed. This is not a race. If Superman tried to zoom in on someone with superior reflex/combat speed like Spiderman, all he'd have to do is simply... sidestep.

My first point is zack snyder was the director of man of steel

Irrelevant.

in his earlier films he was known to use slowmotion in combat very regularly and effectivley (300/watchmen/suckerpunch/owls of ga'hul) to emphasize speed

No. Slow motion effects in Watchmen/300 were done to make the fight scenes look more bada$$. Not to emphasise speed.

Slow motion effects in Spiderman was to show how he sees objects in motion, how he sees bullets in slow motion and how he takes his sweet time to react to them.

Slow motion in the Immortal movie was to show how fast the gods were moving. If you sped up the video, you'd get an idea of how truly fast they were.

or to capture moments that wouldn't be as effective in real-time motion

Sounds about right. The scenes wouldn't look as good without the zoom in/out slow motion effects.

point being he was more than able to do it in other ways but he chose to do it in a different way. that was my first point made.

All speculation from your side. We're discussing the Kryptonians' speed in combat and you're bringing up what you think Zack could've done with them?

My second point is he showed kryptonian superhuman speed extremely well without the use of slowmotion

In straight lines.

, this is why people would say without thinking"MOS speedblitzes everyone!" because super speed was shown so well.

Emphasis on the underlined part.

My third point is this is a shared DC universe they're creating, they can't just slow down time to show they can go fast as the gods in immortals because then it will be harder to differentiate other heroes speeds when they are fighting

The gods and titans in the Immortal were every bit as fast as each other. That didn't stop the makers from showing off their combat speed.

how would they show how much more faster flash is effectively if they already made superman look so fast

Again, they made Superman look fast in straight lines because he already is. His combat speed however is rubbish, along with every character in this thread.

They could've done something like 7:13 in this movie.

Now THAT was fast COMBAT... COMBAT speed. Not straight lined speed like the kryptonians displayed.

(If the Kryptonians and Jet Li's 'The One' character had a race, the Kryptonians would run laps around them, but if they had a fight, I promise you they will not touch The One. Straight lined speed are irrelevant in combat, if they weren't, Iron Man would be a supersonic fighter -_-)

In the parking lot scene, when Zod and Clark were fighting and multiple cars were falling from the building, they could've shown the cars falling in slow motion while they were fighting at superspeed.

the answer is they don't use slow motion, and just capture speed effectivley in real-time for all the kryptonians

And it was piss-poor.

the answer is they don't use slow motion, and just capture speed effectivley in real-time for all the kryptonians

I assure you if Flash ends up being in the sequel. they will use multiple slow motion effects for him and if they show him in real-time, he'd be nothing but a blur/dash.

Stop trying to give excuses for the Kryptonians' crappy combat speed.

That's as clear as it gets, if you still don't understand, you just need to move on.

It's you who doesn't understand the difference between combat speed and travel speed.

A few examples of superior combat speed and REAL speedblitz'ing:

2:42-3:10 would be an actual speed blitz

Another type of speedblitz would be this:

6:15 onwards would be fast combat speed(well, compared to the Kryptonians):

The Kryptonians were no faster than average human beings in combat. 'Speedblitz'ing' is out of the equation.

They were no faster than any of the Avengers in combat, outside of bulrushes and speed tackles.

Their speed during combat were about as equal as Thor/Loki/Iron Man/Hulk and everyone else in the Avengers roster.

@rudebomberboy01: "I don't think you understand what combat speed is" any speed of an attack consists of being part of combat speed including, you guessed it speed punting

"No, they haven't." speed punting, yes they have

"The Kryptonians never showed any speedblitz'ing in the entire movie, nor did they show the necessary speed to perform a blitz." i know this, what the heck do you think I've been saying all this time? when did i say to you i think that they can speedblitz, i said zamck snyder showed the combat speed of the kryptonians so well that people assume, speculate, exaggerate that they can speed blitz, i did not say they can, i said it gives off a big impression and does not need to use slow motion effects or the effects used in immortals

zack snyder (director of MOS) was the boss of slow motion combat, he wanted to try something different and it worked

"Irrelevant." no its not irrelevant since we are talking about techniques directors use to show combat speed and the different ways each director presented, i don't need to know what's going on in his mind i just need to compare his old work to his new.

No. Slow motion effects in Watchmen/300 were done to make the fight scenes look more bada$$. Not to emphasise speed."Slow motion effects in Spiderman was to show how he sees objects in motion, how he sees bullets in slow motion and how he takes his sweet time to react to them. Slow motion in the Immortal movie was to show how fast the gods were moving. If you sped up the video, you'd get an idea of how truly fast they were" speed and agility is emphasized along with badass moments, bad ass moments can be filmed and choreographed differently, it emphasized how much fast the 300 can react and attack

"Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Donnie Yen, Tony Jaa (in person) all have faster combat speed compared to the Kryptonians, and I'm not even kidding. You don't know what combat speed is (lol ok). I'll post examples of combat speed later on. The Kryptonians, when not moving in straight directions or performing speed tackles were no faster than average human beings" they can't replicate speed punting, or punch an opponent who is 15 meters away in one second, these are all combat feats beyond a humans capacity, stop overlooking what they can do, moving in straight lines punching someone is an attack and a combat speed, fact is none of the people you have mentioned can do what faora or clark did, but any of the kryptonians are able to do what any average human is capable of

My second point is he showed kryptonian superhuman speed extremely well without the use of slowmotion

"In straight lines." and? it is still regarded as super combat speed and super speed in general

"The gods and titans in the Immortal were every bit as fast as each other. That didn't stop the makers from showing off their combat speed." irreverent and utterly missing the main point, flash should be depicted as faster than superman not the same speed, and it's not effective if you use one technique to show both of there speed, no differentiation, the gods and titans are supposed to be the same speed

, this is why people would say without thinking "MOS speedblitzes everyone!" because super speed was shown so well.

"Emphasis on the underlined part." well bloody duh! that's my point, don't you understand the simplest sentence? speed show well, this is why without thinking people would assume stuff like this, which I clearly don't since I am aware of this, and pointing it out myself

"Again, they made Superman look fast in straight lines because he already is. His combat speed however is rubbish, along with every character in this thread." do you even know what combat speed is?

"They could've done something like 7:13 in this movie." can you stop saying what they could of done and understand what they have done was good enough to show combat speed?

"Now THAT was fast COMBAT... COMBAT speed. Not straight lined speed like the kryptonians displayed." that was fast combat speed displayed in a different way, i don't know why you keep bringing this straight line debate so much when it's as effective as anything you have shown in this video.

"(If the Kryptonians and Jet Li's 'The One' character had a race, the Kryptonians would run laps around them, but if they had a fight, I promise you they will not touch The One(a promise from you is still speculation)Straight lined speed are irrelevant in combat (clearly not since it was effective enough to kill people and hit kryptonians so well), if they weren't, Iron Man would be a supersonic fighter -_-)"

In the parking lot scene, when Zod and Clark were fighting and multiple cars were falling from the building, they could've shown the cars falling in slow motion while they were fighting at superspeed.

the answer is they don't use slow motion, and just capture speed effectivley in real-time for all the kryptonians

And it was piss-poor.

the answer is they don't use slow motion, and just capture speed effectivley in real-time for all the kryptonians

"I assure you if Flash ends up being in the sequel. they will use multiple slow motion effects for him and if they show him in real-time, he'd be nothing but a blur/dash." i already said this! this is the reason why it was a good idea they didn't use slow motion for krytonians, instead they can use it for flash, to show he is much faster than the kryptonians, all in all differentiating their speed, this was my third point that i made.

Stop trying to give excuses for the Kryptonians' crappy combat speed.

That's as clear as it gets, if you still don't understand, you just need to move on.

"It's you who doesn't understand the difference between combat speed and travel speed." oh really?

A few examples of superior combat speed and REAL speedblitz'ing:

2:42-3:10 would be an actual speed blitz

Another type of speedblitz would be this: watched all these clips, everything you showed me i already know

"The Kryptonians were no faster than average human beings in combat (yes they have shown average combat amongst there superhuman combat speed). 'Speedblitz'ing' is out of the equation.(never said it was in the equation in the first place)"

"They were no faster than any of the Avengers in combat, outside of bulrushes and speedtackles." this is what they use most frequently in combat when it comes to speed, and why they have the upper hand in combat speed when it comes to the avnegers.

"Their speed during combat were about as equal as Thor(no)/Loki(no)/Iron Man(no)/Hulk(no) and everyone else in the Avengers roster." there combat speed feats where greater than theirs but their reaction time was about the same as the avengers yes

"Thor jumped out of the way of an F-22 Raptor's miniguns. Does he also have superhuman speed/reflexes?" nope, there's a difference, and i'm not going to explain it because it's too obvious

"Not combat speed. This is not a race. If Superman tried to zoom in on someone with superior reflex/combat speed like Spiderman, all he'd have to do is simply... sidestep" i really don't care what spiderman can and cannot do in this thread because he is not in this battle, he has amazing reaction time because that's his power, to have reaction time greater than anyone else's, but no if faora went in a straight line and tried to hit spidey he would be tagged...and dead.

@thevarioty436:

any speed of an attack consists of being part of combat speed including, you guessed it speed punting

What if I told you.... Iron Man can also 'speed punt'.. Doesn't stop him from getting tagged by Thor/Whiplash in a fight.

speed punting, yes they have

And it's as useless as Iron Man's. Also not a game changer.

i know this, what the heck do you think I've been saying all this time? when did i say to you i think that they can speedblitz, i said zamck snyder showed the combat speed of the kryptonians so well that people assume, speculate, exaggerate that they can speed blitz, i did not say they can, i said it gives off a big impression and does not need to use slow motion effects or the effects used in immortals

What combat speed? I did not see the Kryptonians display any combat speed Thor couldn't handle.

no its not irrelevant since we are talking about techniques directors use to show combat speed and the different ways each director presented, i don't need to know what's going on in his mind i just need to compare his old work to his new.

Yes it is in fact irrelevant. He's never worked on characters as fast as Superman in the past and he's never showcased superspeed in any of his past works, so I don't know why you're bringing up his past works.

speed and agility is emphasized along with badass moments, bad ass moments can be filmed and choreographed differently, it emphasized how much fast the 300 can react and attack

-____-

Spiderman's agility and reflex/reaction speed in a fight is what makes him faster than any of the Kryptonians during combat.

The slow motion effects shown in the Spiderman movies were done for a completely different reason to the 300 movie. Completely different.

One was done to make a fight scene look more awesome, the other was done to showcase speed.

Why else would they show bullets going in slow motion and Spiderman dodging them?

they can't replicate speed punting, or punch an opponent who is 15 meters away in one second, these are all combat feats beyond a humans capacity

And I'll repeat myself; Bulrushes, or 'speed punting' as you call it, are completely different types of speed compared to the type of speed that would be displayed in a fight.

You still don't get it.

stop overlooking what they can do, moving in straight lines punching someone is an attack and a combat speed

I am not. I've already complimented them on how impressive their travel speed is.

fact is none of the people you have mentioned can do what faora or clark did

THEY DON'T NEED TO! They don't have any fast travel speed, what they do have are superior reaction speeds and reflexes!

You keep counting bulrushes as combat speed, but what would happen if Clark tried to bulrush Spiderman and Spiderman simply sidestepped? Clark would still be going in the direction at which he tried to tackle Spiderman. That is TRAVEL SPEED. Bulrushes are TRAVEL SPEEDS. Even Iron Man, Thor.... and Hulk were bulrushing people for heaven's sake.

Would you count Hulk launching himself into his opponents at great speeds by jumping, combat speed?

any of the kryptonians are able to do what any average human is capable of

That isn't something to be proud of considering they're 'Kryptonians'.

"In straight lines." and? it is still regarded as super combat speed and super speed in general

*sigh*

irreverent and utterly missing the main point, flash should be depicted as faster than superman not the same speed, and it's not effective if you use one technique to show both of there speed

Lolwut? Erm yes it can. If Flash ends up being in the sequel, they could use the same slow motion effects on both characters at the same time to showcase Flashs' superiority of speed over Clarks.

no differentiation, the gods and titans are supposed to be the same speed

They were the same speed, but that didn't stop the makers showing people moving around at superspeed while others fall.

"Emphasis on the underlined part." well bloody duh! that's my point, don't you understand the simplest sentence? speed show well, this is why without thinking people would assume stuff like this, which I clearly don't since I am aware of this, and pointing it out myself

I was agreeing with you? Plus I can't see this 'well shown' speed that would make people believe MoS characters could perform a blitz. I just can't see it.

do you even know what combat speed is?

I know it isn't launching yourself into others.

can you stop saying what they could of done and understand what they have done was good enough to show combat speed

And I'm telling you it wasn't any faster than the Avengers. Or any average human being for that matter.

that was fast combat speed displayed in a different way, i don't know why you keep bringing this straight line debate so much when it's as effective as anything you have shown in this video.

Because straight lined speed could be evaded/dodged/countered by any character with superior reaction/combat speed. Replace the wing Hulk threw at Thor in their fight scene with Superman and there you have it.

It wasn't as effective compared to people moving around in superspeed and having fights while their surroundings are moving in super slowmotion.

(a promise from you is still speculation)

Call it what you want. On one side you have characters fighting while their surroundings are almost suspended in animation, on the other side, you have characters fighting no faster than I.

(clearly not since it was effective enough to kill people and hit kryptonians so well)

Replace the humans in that scene with Spiderman. Plus the Kryptonians had how many reaction feats in the MoS movie? That's right, none.

i already said this! this is the reason why it was a good idea they didn't use slow motion for krytonians, instead they can use it for flash, to show he is much faster than the kryptonians, all in all differentiating their speed, this was my third point that i made.

I don't even... Wut? This is beyond ridiculous.

(yes they have shown average combat amongst there superhuman combat speed).

-____-

this is what they use most frequently in combat when it comes to speed, and why they have the upper hand in combat speed when it comes to the avnegers.

They use it in one on one situations. What would happen if Superman tackles one of the Avengers? The others will just stand there and wait their turns?

there combat speed feats where greater than theirs but their reaction time was about the same as the avengers yes

What combat speed? I keep asking and please don't tell me bulrushes or 'speed punting' again.

nope, there's a difference, and i'm not going to explain it because it's too obvious

Educate me.

i really don't care what spiderman can and cannot do in this thread because he is not in this battle, he has amazing reaction time because that's his power, to have reaction time greater than anyone else's, but no if faora went in a straight line and tried to hit spidey he would be tagged...and dead.

I was giving you examples of what would happen if they tried to bulrush a character with superior reactions.

And no, Faora is not one-shotting a character who took an explosion to the face and dusted off getting semi-sandwiched by an incoming train.

She's also not going to tackle a character who sees bullets in slow motion.

Oh and please don't cross out my words. It makes you look like a beg.

I can't see anything.

@rogueshadow: He's calling you guys in to debate on Superman's behalf. I think.

@rudebomberboy01:

Dude. Be quiet if you don't know what happened and what happened was pretty obvious. The made a comment to me so I gave them a blank message? Isn't it obvious that it was a glitch?

@raynorj@rogueshadow

You don't get KOd from impact instantly. For all we know he could have beem dazed and just passed out(which is most likely the case). Ig not, how do you explain him laying in that same exact spot and turning back into Banner? If he truly wasn't KOd he should have gotten right back up and should have gotten angrier from the pain. You pointed out the Incredible Hulk fall but when he fell he turned into Hulk because of the pain. By that comparison you tried to make he should have stayed Banner. ITs obvious he was KOd

• He was still in the same spot.
• He turned into Banner when if he wasn't KOd he should have felt the pain and got mad in turn getting up.

@wardemon32: Sorry about that.

I assumed that's what you meant.

My bad.

@rudebomberboy01: "What if I told you.... Iron Man can also 'speed punt'.. Doesn't stop him from getting tagged by Thor/Whiplash in a fight" show me what iron man did, exact same speed or greater, if not, don't bother

"And it's as useless as Iron Man's. Also not a game changer" when did i say it was a game changer, merely give him the upper hand, and seriously show me iron man speed punting the way any of the kryptonians did

i know this, what the heck do you think I've been saying all this time? when did i say to you i think that they can speedblitz, i said zamck snyder showed the combat speed of the kryptonians so well that people assume, speculate, exaggerate that they can speed blitz, i did not say they can, i said it gives off a big impression and does not need to use slow motion effects or the effects used in immortals

"What combat speed? I did not see the Kryptonians display any combat speed Thor couldn't handle" you sound like your trying to convince yourself lol and i never mentioned thor could or couldn't handle it, i said i would give combat speed and reaction time to superman out of the two

"Yes it is in fact irrelevant. He's never worked on characters as fast as Superman in the past and he's never showcased superspeed in any of his past works, so I don't know why you're bringing up his past works" he showcased speed in slowmotion did he not, you don't need to showcase superspeed to have a good technique presenting slowmotion

"Spiderman's agility and reflex/reaction speed in a fight is what makes him faster than any of the Kryptonians during combat" no it doesn't, it just shows he has good reaction time, spiderman still needs more time to move than a kryptonian but he reacts earlier than a kryptonian, faora moves at the last second before the A10 bullet hit her, spiderman moves before the bullet is shot, her speed is still greater, but his reaction time exceeds all of them, and again, avengers are not spiderman so i don't really care when you bring him up, in fact i constantly roll my eyes every time i read his name in this thread.

"The slow motion effects shown in the Spiderman movies were done for a completely different reason to the 300 movie. Completely different"

"One was done to make a fight scene look more awesome, the other was done to showcase speed.reaction time"

"Why else would they show bullets going in slow motion and Spiderman dodging them?" to show his reaction time

they can't replicate speed punting, or punch an opponent who is 15 meters away in one second, these are all combat feats beyond a humans capacity

"And I'll repeat myself; Bulrushes, or 'speed punting' as you call it, are completely different types of speed compared to the type of speed that would be displayed in a fight" it was displayed in a fight, i don't get why you try separate speed punting saying it's not a fighting move

"I am not. I've already complimented them on how impressive their travel speed is"everything travels! whether in combat or traveling, faoras fist travels into a soldiers face, just the same as the gods weapons travel into a titans body

"THEY DON'T NEED TO! They don't have any fast travel speed, what they do have are superior reaction speeds and reflexes!" everything travels! never doubted their reaction

"You keep counting bulrushes as combat speed, but what would happen if Clark tried to bulrush Spiderman (he would die)and Spiderman simply sidestepped?(you mean the way faora moved out of the way and 1 second later he's up and flying after her again) Clark would still be going in the direction at which he tried to tackle Spiderman. (you thing the fight would end right there? no he wouldn't he has shown complete control over areal battle) That is TRAVEL SPEED. Bulrushes are TRAVEL SPEEDS. Even Iron Man, Thor.... and Hulk were bulrushing people for heaven's sake"everything travels!

"Would you count Hulk launching himself into his opponents at great speeds by jumping, combat speed?" any kind of attack that is able to be measured by speed and distance is a combat speed

spiderman is able to do what any average human being can do

no differentiation, the gods and titans are supposed to be the same speed

They were the same speed, (i just said that)

"I was agreeing with you? Plus I can't see this 'well shown' speed that would make people believe MoS characters could perform a blitz. I just can't see it" look my argument is zack snyder has shown superspeed in such a good way, that it would make people think.think! that they can speedblitz, you can't see it because it hasn't been shown, but superspeed has been shown making people believe they are capable of it, all assumptions of course but my argument is you are wrong saying that they showed superspeed poorly when the majority would say otherwise.

do you even know what combat speed is?

"I know it isn't launching yourself into others." (sigh) combat speed is any kind of attack that is able to be measured by speed and distance is a combat speed

"Because straight lined speed could be evaded/dodged/countered by any character with superior reaction/combat speed. Replace the wing Hulk threw at Thor in their fight scene with Superman and there you have it" that's not speed punting, that's a bullrush, thor would just hit his nuts on kals ankle, thor doesn't need slow motion to show his reaction time, why does MOS?

"It wasn't as effective compared to people moving around in superspeed and having fights while their surroundings are moving in super slowmotion" it seems to be effective enough for people to shout out "MOS SPEEDBLITZES EVERYONE"

(a promise from you is still speculation)

"Call it what you want. On one side you have characters fighting while their surroundings are almost suspended in animation, on the other side, you have characters fighting no faster than I" lol you can't speed punt or bullrush lik any of them did

(clearly not since it was effective enough to kill people and hit kryptonians so well)

"Replace the humans in that scene with Spiderman (seriously how many tmes are you gonna use this guy, when he's not even in this fight, why don't you go make a thread called faora vs spiderman or something). Plus the Kryptonians had how many reaction feats in the MoS movie? That's right, none" lol please that's absolutely and utterly ridiculous, your really gonna deny they have reaction feats? i bet you superman had more reaction feats than hulk or thor put together in the avengers movie

(yes they have shown average combat amongst there superhuman combat speed).

this is what they use most frequently in combat when it comes to speed, and why they have the upper hand in combat speed when it comes to the avnegers.

"They use it in one on one situations(wrong). What would happen if Superman tackles one of the Avengers? The others will just stand there and wait their turns?" faora used it on about 10 soldiers put together, superman used it on 2 opponents (who have greater speed feats than the avengers in combat) put together

nope, there's a difference, and i'm not going to explain it because it's too obvious

"Educate me" seriously this does not help me think your even debating anymore. faora moved at the last second turning into a blurr, thor just done those action movie ducks that an average human can do, and had time to react to it, and it wasn't even being aimed at him

i really don't care what spiderman can and cannot do in this thread because he is not in this battle, he has amazing reaction time because that's his power, to have reaction time greater than anyone else's, but no if faora went in a straight line and tried to hit spidey he would be tagged...and dead.

"I was giving you examples of what would happen if they tried to bulrush a character with superior reactions" who is superman going up against who has spiderman like reactions? no-one? i thought so, so why should i care? i don't? i thought so

"And no, Faora is not one-shotting a character who took an explosion to the face and dusted off getting semi-sandwiched by an incoming train" do you mean the time he passed out saving that train, or something else, coz i only remember kal dusting of a burning locomotive hit, and no he's only 4-5 times more durable than a human being, not enough to get up from a girl who creates shockwaves everytime she punches someone, or a guys who destroy the surrounding area everytime he bullrushes someone, or the big guy who punched someone so hard they turned into red misty paste

"She's also not going to tackle a character who sees bullets in slow motion" yes she is since she can move faster than bullets in short bursts

Oh and please don't cross out my words. It makes you look like a beg. :)

First of all its good to see so many people are very passionate about these movies. Sadly directors don't make these films with these kinds of threads in mind, only based on visual effects and shock and awe.

I see a battle going on between isaac_clarke and other debaters. Most of what is being discussed are the 'feats' displayed in the smallville battle. I think a better comparison would be superman vs zod's battle. Sure we should not discount the smallville skirmish but remember that it occurred the same day of superman's first appearance and probably first use of his full powers in a fight. We can assume he wasn't fighting at his best and it was probably the first time he threw a punch or ever had to take one. Also Faora and Non were extremely savage in their fighting -taking dirty shots wherever possible- and highly trained, this is probably why -in addition to it being his first time taking on enemies - he was at some points getting overwhelmed. Note that Thor has several hundred years of combat experience and Hulk has had his fair bit of punishment from the military before we see them in their respective movies.

The fight with Zod is more noteworthy, we see him at a higher potential and the fully scale of his abilities. The video is attached below:

Zod Fight

Notice the amount of punishment he is able to handle here. I review them:

• Getting thrown through skyscrapers: Sure one can argue about Non or Faora getting damaged by bullet fire or missiles, but note that Kal is being thrown through almost a dozen skyscrapers then dragged to space immediately after.
• The fact he was able to recover with very little time and even handle being pummeled through reentry by zod - reentry temperatures can reach over 5000 degrees celsuis - while fighting on is in indication that he is far more capable than originally thought. Check the video at 4:26. They then fall with the rest of the satellite from orbit heights to the train station. All the while fighting through. This indicates the sheer drop and even temperature and forces was not at all a problem in their fight. It also goes to show that Zod would not have been stopped by any other means than killing him.
• Repeatedly pummeled and punched up a skyscraper: A remarkable feat of strength by zod but still, Kal recovers nearly instantly. The building looked fairly tall and the fact is he and Zod were previously engaged in previous combat before. Despite this he is able to land a near KO hit during the bull rush between him and Zod, If you watch the video carefully around that part note that Kal recovers nearly instantly after the impact -which caves in the skyscraper - and flies off to meet Zod. No feats i've seen from the avengers shows they could output or even tank than level of punching power with the exception of Hulk.
• Using heat vision to melt a steel beam in a few seconds. I'm not sure how much heat Thor can handle or even Hulk but this displays the tremendous power packed in those beams. Steel melts around 1400 degrees Celsius. Kal seem to be applying much more than this because he melts it in a continuous stream over a very short amount of time. If he ever used it offensively i'm not sure Thor could take it. Hulk I can argue for but Hulk was already having trouble with a bombardment of a squad of chiltauri's fire.
• High close combat speed, due to Zack discarding his trademark slo-mo we can see the high rate at which Zod and Superman engage in close combat at certain points. At around 1:35 the rate at which they are fighting is far faster than the rate I've seen any avengers fight at.

Now to clear up the world engine.

First of all notice superman is able to fly from continental USA to the South Indian ocean in a few minutes, displaying high rate of speed easily in excess of Mach 100. He destroys the world engine and is seen in metropolis again meer minutes - around 3 - after Lois and the colonel are given the go ahead to drop the payload. But i'm not here to argue travel speed.

The impact of the world engine in metropolis flattened skyscrapers like mush:

World Engine Effect

Destroying to World Engine

Really just check out 1:35.

None of the avengers could withstand the amount of power that device was outputting. After all, it is heavily implied that a 30 000 feet drop would kill Thor and yes knock Hulk out UPON impact. Note that he fell as the hulk but WAS knocked out when he hit the ground, we know this because of wakes up as Bruce banner and the guard does say he saw him as a green and nude though awake. So he fell but stopped moving until he reverted back to Bruce banner. I'm not sure whether it is due to lack of durability or Bruce taking over, point being some level of impact is capable of reverting him back to Bruce. I again point out that Hulk was getting overwhelmed with a bombardment of a squad of chitauri's fire and Blomsky's grenade launchers in Incredible Hulk. Even he has his limits. I understand the Incredible Hulk is being brought up - really the Helicopter drop scene didn't make sense since he fell nearly human. However a drop from 1000 or so feet does not rival the near 30 000 feet fall in Avengers so you can't really make a case for him that way.

Kal is able to survive inside the epicenter of the world engine -which is adding mass to the earths crush from that point. Added to the fact that it was making more like Krypton, this lead to Kal being de-powered enough to begin coughing and lose control of his flight at certain points of his fight with the engine's defense system.

I'm not sure how long he was inside -over a minute probably - but flying up and destroying it in this state and in spite of the engine's displayed output is a feat which alone triumphs anything the marvel avengers have ever put out in term of durability.

In addition, he was able to escape the pull of a blackhole - I troll you not, that is what the collision of the phantom drives was meant to create - to save Lois after the plane crash despite it was warping him. This displays even further feats of durability.

So in conclusion he HAS the durability in this fight to outlast everyone in the match. I know people will bring up the smallville fight but given that his feats during Zod's battle display greater capabilities - and we assume he is even more well trained 1 year after - and the fact that despite the punishment he was being put through he was able to endure. These include: Being thrown inside the center of a Planet changing gravity well shown to easily demolish skyscrapers in the Metropolis while weakened by its effects, flying half way around the world in mere minutes - 5 minutes tops, thrown through dozens of building, punched up a skyscraper, enduring high speed close combat maneuvers, supercharged bull-rushing with the force to tear down a skyscraper, resisting the pull of a blackhole, reentry temperatures while being repeatedly punched, falls from orbit heights ALL in the span of about 1 hour without relenting or showing signs of physical pain...

Strength is a matter of spectacle because we don't see him use it to his fullest apart from the oil rig - but based on the other kryptonian's feat such as tossing train's several hundred meters away, we can say he is AT LEAST in Thor and Hulks mantle.

It is not a matter of DOES he has the durability, rather- how long would the others last before inevitably bow out.

@difficlus: Good point plus supes being supes was holding back in every fight, until he realized what was at stake then amped it up a little.

I think people try using the "smallville battle" as an excuse because he's starting out, doesn't want to hurt anyone. I mean the fights with Faora are sheer proof of that then by the time the movie ends. Clark realizes ok, no more mr. nice guy i'm stopping you! He beat Zod and I'm pretty sure Zod>>>>Faora and Nam. Know what I mean so only logic would show Superman>>>Zod>>>Faora>>Nam

Kryptonians>>>>Avengers

I think Thor would be the biggest issue, rest he goes through pretty easy depending on how much he holds back or goes all out and eventually defeats Thor.

@wardemon32: I don't know or think Hulk was KOed, after distancing himself from the scepter Bruce could have subconsciously suppressed the Hulk, either way it's poor evidence because there's no context but rather opinions on what could have happened including my own.

But he has fallen from great Heights with nor problem at all, so there is more evidence to suggest falling from those Heights shouldn't be a problem than not.

@difficlus: despite such an impressive explanation, there is going to be some backlash about your post from other viners

Comicvine ate up my entire post. And I can't be bothered to type it up again.

@rudebomberboy01: LOL. that is unfortunate, genuinely feel a bit sorry for you.

@thevarioty436: I know, took me about 20 mins to type up :(

GGs though.

@slimj87d:

When has he ever subconsciously supressed Hulk? He even, he seemed to not know anything that was going on or happened.

Thanks for telling me why I referenced two instances where the Hulk falls asleep and wakes up as Banner after each transformation from the Incredible Hulk?

Hulk passed out from the fall point blank and simple.

Rather it is speculation that ignores what happens after each transformation consistentlythroughout the films.

And it doesn't even matter since the closest thing Clark does to this is fly through a mountain top. He didn't free fall 30,000 feet in his film at all and spent most of his time recovering from significantly less force repeatedly. Flying into a gas-station had him crawling on the ground for more than half a minute.

Thor had a mystic hammer, that's why he broke out of that box. It wasn't meant for Thor.

Not in the cinematic universe.

Do you even know the definition of a knock out. He just got tag teamed by kryptonians. All he did was lay there until they flipped him over, which was in what 5 seconds. I hardly call that a knock out, because when they flipped him over he was still taking them both on just fine.

So him lying face first on the ground - not staggering up till someone rolls him onto his back is normal? He was trying to run away from them and resorted to heat-ray vision to blast them off him.

All kryptonians made waves when they hit things or each other. Cap's shield is vibranium, that's why the it had that affect when Thor hit it. Other times when Thor hits it's in smaller waves.

"It's completely vibration absorbent" - 00:10

Namely why Captain America isn't flattened getting hit by that kind of force. If anything it reduces the effect of Thor's strike.

Loki: The Humans think us immortal. Should we test that?

You're intentionally misinterpreting what Loki said in favor of adding additional context to its meaning. There is absolutely no confirmation on Loki's part that the drop would kill Thor and there is no reason to believe either of them would know if it would kill Thor. The fact Thor actually survives kicks it to the curb to boot.

The only reason it didn't was because he slowed his momentum with the hammer.

I missed the part where Thor slowed the momentum by busting through the cage to escape crashing straight into the ground regardless.

And besides, he was KO'd from the drop regardless.

More speculation that could easily be turned on its head to say the A10 one that hits Clark and takes him off screen for almost a minute KOed him.

Loki manipulated his transformation? Lol what? No he didn't. He set up the situation for Banned to turn into rage hulk, sure, but he didn't use any mystical magic to make sure Hulk attacked Black Widow.

You're ignoring Loki's play was the Hulk:

• Black Widow outright says 'Loki is manipulating you.' 00:21 - 00:31

• And later in the same argument he outright picks up the sceptar and looks down in confusion after Rogers points out he's holding it. (02:32 - 02:48)

It isn't only implied Loki is directly controlling Banner in this scene, but he's causing them all to argue through the sceptar. Even without it he turned Erik Selvig into his puppet - parrot his words in the post credit scene of Thor:

Loki can control people. The Hulk trashing the helicarrier in Avengers is one that isn't at all restrained by Banner - this version have happily killed Betty Ross or anyone else without much of a care as it was simply pure-rage.

If he was attacking BW as Hulk, then he would have attacked that old man on sight all the same. And it's in character for Hulk to just fall out of the sky and NOT MOVE AT ALL now? Right. Because the first thing I think when fallin from the sky and hitting cement is "I'm so at peace right now".

It's fairly evident when the Old Man points out the Hulk is directing where he falls - making sure to be away from people - that the Hulk is no-longer under Loki's influence. And yes usually where the Hulk sets up camp is where Bruce wakes up - it happened every other time he's transformed in the cinematic universe.

To address the speed issue, even if MoS only uses bullrushes with his speed, that's all he needs.

Thor's bullrushes are better - in the sense they are actual bullrushes where he hammers into his target, either poking holes in their throat or sending them through portals dragging everything around him with him and not hurting himself like Clark does almost every bullrush.

A bullrush punch will knock Thor into next week, and Thor isn't dodging or countering said punch, unless you can provide me with evidence he's countered it before.

So I have to post a video of Thor countering Superman's punch to argue he can counter it? Before or after we acknowledge this 'bullrush' punch isn't something Clark actually does in the film? The closest thing that comes to mind was punching Zod in a straight line three times. That's it. The rest of his bullrushes consisted of grabbing someone to smash them through things or grabbing onto them to trade punches at VERY human speeds.

And that's ignoring that Superman happily fights on the ground the majority of the film because his actual flight combat showings are terrible.

MoS was able to hold up an oil rig. Take the arm strength it takes to do that and then multiply that with his bullrush speed, and you get a punch that will more than equal a terminal velocity drop from 30,000 feet. Game over.

When in doubt make things up and call it an argument. This is why MOS threads are quite honestly the worst threads I've read on these boards since DBZ was banned. Clark would have one-shot Zod if he could remotely perform at the levels you pretend he can.

We've seen 'bullrush' flight punches - which consisted of punching Zod in a straight line over and over in Metropolis - it wasn't terminal velocity (which is by itself completely situational) punches. That's why it took Zod and Clark clashing to produced shockwaves comparable to Thor's on his own.

The only reason he could fight is because his opponents flip him on his back and actually allow him to recover / wake-up. Otherwise he was out on his face immobile - they could have finished him there and then but Kryptonians being extremely naive in this film help wake him up.

@difficlus said:

• Getting thrown through skyscrapers: Sure one can argue about Non or Faora getting damaged by bullet fire or missiles, but note that Kal is being thrown through almost a dozen skyscrapers then dragged to space immediately after.

Which required Zod to twirl him through said skyscrapers. The latter is being cut from Metropolis to space - without much indication of what happens inbetween, so immediately isn't exactly the best description of it since its from our perspective rather than the film's.

• The fact he was able to recover with very little time and even handle being pummeled through reentry by zod - reentry temperatures can reach over 5000 degrees celsuis - while fighting on is in indication that he is far more capable than originally thought. Check the video at 4:26. They then fall with the rest of the satellite from orbit heights to the train station. All the while fighting through. This indicates the sheer drop and even temperature and forces was not at all a problem in their fight. It also goes to show that Zod would not have been stopped by any other means than killing him.

They aren't burning anywhere near that hot at the speeds they where depicted as going and Thor was bathing in lightning in Thor without so much as burning a hair on his head. He also avoids being vaporized by Grungir despite a direct shot.

• Repeatedly pummeled and punched up a skyscraper: A remarkable feat of strength by zod but still, Kal recovers nearly instantly. The building looked fairly tall and the fact is he and Zod were previously engaged in previous combat before. Despite this he is able to land a near KO hit during the bull rush between him and Zod, If you watch the video carefully around that part note that Kal recovers nearly instantly after the impact -which caves in the skyscraper- and flies off to meet Zod. No feats i've seen from the avengers shows they could output or even tank than level of punching power with the exception of Hulk.

Again - what takes Thor himself to produce in terms of a shockwave:

The Avengers: (2:40 Avengers)

Dark World: (0:18 Thor: Dark World)

Took Clark and Zod clashing with one another - which was my point earlier. This argument where they hit exceptionally harder than Thor or the Hulk simply doesn't hold water in an argument because Thor alone has leveled everything around him swinging his hammer. This isn't bothering to include the even more ridiculous Juntonheim strike.

It would be a lot more impressive if Clark was pulling off striking power comparable to the two instances above.

• Using heat vision to melt a steel beam in a few seconds. I'm not sure how much heat Thor can handle or even Hulk but this displays the tremendous power packed in those beams. Steel melts around 1400 degrees Celsius. Kal seem to be applying much more than this because he melts it in a continuous stream over a very short amount of time. If he ever used it offensively i'm not sure Thor could take it. Hulk I can argue for but Hulk was already having trouble with a bombardment of a squad of chiltauri's fire.

For one thing Thor was casually batting away visor blasts that blew up buildings on impact. He is seemingly completely unaffected by lightning which was literally pouring all over his body in Thor when he regained his power and has taken a direct blast from Grungir which was shown to vaporize Frost Giants twice in the film:

(1:35)

And again completely vaporizing Laufey on its second shot.

• High close combat speed, due to Zack discarding his trademark slo-mo we can see the high rate at which Zod and Superman engage in close combat at certain points. At around 1:35 the rate at which they are fighting is far faster than the rate I've seen any avengers fight at.

I have no idea why that is any faster than the swings being thrown around at 0:14.

Literally Thor's reaction feats here are better than anything you see at of Clark in MOS and they're fists are moving at the same exaggerated blurred speeds.

First of all notice superman is able to fly from continental USA to the South Indian ocean in a few minutes, displaying high rate of speed easily in excess of Mach 100. He destroys the world engine and is seen in metropolis again meer minutes - around 3 - after Lois and the colonel are given the go ahead to drop the payload. But i'm not here to argue travel speed.

We don't have a static measurement of time at all to come up with an accurate measure of speed from either showing as far as I recall.

Really just check out 1:35.

None of the avengers could withstand the amount of power that device was outputting.

It's affecting gravity - which means it's completely proportional to the target.

After all, it is heavily implied that a 30 000 feet drop would kill Thor and yes knock Hulk out UPON impact. Note that he fell as the hulk but WAS knocked out when he hit the ground, we know this because of wakes up as Bruce banner and the guard does say he saw him as a green and nude though awake. So he fell but stopped moving until he reverted back to Bruce banner. I'm not sure whether it is due to lack of durability or Bruce taking over, point being some level of impact is capable of reverting him back to Bruce.

It was implied Thor would have been killed within the cell - outside of it he was just fine. Same with the Hulk - which we have no idea if he was actually KOed - it's just speculation based off Banner waking up like he does after every other transformation in the cinematic universe.

I again point out that Hulk was getting overwhelmed with a bombardment of a squad of chitauri's fire and Blomsky's grenade launchers in Incredible Hulk. Even he has his limits. I understand the Incredible Hulk is being brought up - really the Helicopter drop scene didn't make sense since he fell nearly human. However a drop from 1000 or so feet does not rival the near 30 000 feet fall in Avengers so you can't really make a case for him that way.

Superman wasn't no-showing energy blasts from Kryptonian ships either - and even then those beams where cutting cars clean in half on impact / sending them flying - the Hulk was getting hammered by about a dozen of them, likely packing more power than the Hydra-Weapons that where vaporizing people on impact in First Avenger.

Kal is able to survive inside the epicenter of the world engine -which is adding mass to the earths crush from that point. Added to the fact that it was making more like Krypton, this lead to Kal being de-powered enough to begin coughing and lose control of his flight at certain points of his fight with the engine's defense system.

I'm not sure how long he was inside -over a minute probably - but flying up and destroying it in this state and in spite of the engine's displayed output is a feat which alone triumphs anything the marvel avengers have ever put out in term of durability.

There is nothing to imply being in the center of the beam is any more extreme than being around it. All we know is the process magically added mass to the Earth's core, anything else is speculation on our parts. Kal despite the asthmatic cough retained a significant amount of his power, otherwise he would have been crushed by his own weight flying around the beam.

In addition, he was able to escape the pull of a blackhole - I troll you not, that is what the collision of the phantom drives was meant to create - to save Lois after the plane crash despite it was warping him. This displays even further feats of durability.

Dark Elves where literally tossing black-hole grenades at the Asgardians - Thor flies by one to save Loki and I'm not harping about his durability there or Loki's survival of that singularity created by the rainbow-bridge's destruction in Thor. The Phantom Hole was what it was - and that wasn't much of a black-hole.

So in conclusion he HAS the durability in this fight to outlast everyone in the match. I know people will bring up the smallville fight but given that his feats during Zod's battle display greater capabilities - and we assume he is even more well trained 1 year after - and the fact that despite the punishment he was being put through he was able to endure. These include:

Being thrown inside the center of a Planet changing gravity well shown to easily demolish skyscrapers in the Metropolis while weakened by its effects,

Being destroyed either by their own weight, the repeated shift in gravity causing them to fall over / cause an earthquake effect - etc. Literally if we want to pretend his durability is something akin to planetary forces - Zod wouldn't have been able to hurt him.

flying half way around the world in mere minutes - 5 minutes tops, thrown through dozens of building, punched up a skyscraper,

Without a time-stamp to work with it's tough. You should work out the number for that hammer return feet in Dark World - basing it off how long it takes Thor to fall from the building / the distance that hammer covers to nearly reach his hand - that will be a more solid number to base speed around.

enduring high speed close combat maneuvers,

Those don't exist.

supercharged bull-rushing with the force to tear down a skyscraper,

Didn't happen.

resisting the pull of a blackhole,

Phantom Hole wasn't much of a black-hole - that would have been a lot more impressive.

reentry temperatures while being repeatedly punched,

I've said it before - Superman does have good heat resistance - it's just completely inconsistent with his blunt-force durability.

falls from orbit heights ALL in the span of about 1 hour without relenting or showing signs of physical pain...

You're taking movie time as an absolute time-frame - which it isn't. And he was expressing pain throughout the film - no idea why that would stop now.

Strength is a matter of spectacle because we don't see him use it to his fullest apart from the oil rig - but based on the other kryptonian's feat such as tossing train's several hundred meters away, we can say he is AT LEAST in Thor and Hulks mantle.

For one thing - we don't see where Nam-Ek tosses the train from (we don't see him toss it at all) - he could have literally dragged it there before the toss. And it's clear Kryptonians don't have static physical stats - otherwise Superman wouldn't have taken so much longer to recover from the A10 that hits him compared to Nam-Ek's brushing it over within 10 seconds.

MOS fanboyism is at an all time high, whats worse its speculation not facts e.g

1- Clark resisting a blackhole, great except Lois was falling away from it as well and unless lois was heavier than the blackhole that feat is WIS.

2. MoS speed blitze great except his never dragged cars in its wake like Thor

3. MoS also got koed against Faora, when hit by a steel beam, when oil rig exploded, when thrown into a station, then dont forget Faora koed by a missile that didnt take out any building. Basically kryptonians have very poor blunt force and explosive tanking. Ironman antitank missiles should be enough.

Unless anyone has an example of kryptonians tanking missiles?

oh boy....

This was going to happen though.

i think man of steel would crush ironman black widow captain america and hawkeye. he would have to worry about hulk and thor since thor comes from a world where science and magic are one and the same.

At the end of the Hulk movie, interviews with the director said that he wanted to show Bruce meditating and smiling when his eyes turn green meaning he has control of the Hulk.

When Bruce willingly turned into the Hulk during the Avengers the Hulk was under control, the only time he did not have control was when the scepter was making everyone angry. It was only then that Fury and I believe Maria Hill realized that the Hulk was part of Loki's plan.

As for the fight I don't know who would win, I would have to rewatch Superman.

@slimj87d:

He obviously doesn't have complete control over Hulk. I can make a dog jump but that doesn't mean I can get it to sit. We already know he can trun into the Hulk willingly but that doesn't mean he can supress it and there's nothing to suggest he can. I can make a card disappear tryign to do magic but does that mean I can bring it back? And when did they ever say Hulk was part of Loki's plan? Proof that he was KOd when the oil rig "exploded"(which he wasn't even in since he fell)

@thanosii

KOd by a steel beam? And I'm pretty sure the portal sucked those cars in. So what if he was KOd by Faora? Its not like anyone on the Avengers ahs the power to do that except for Hulk and he took two hits from Nam-Ek who is even stronger. Put Thor in that situation and the same would happen. Faora was disoriented like everyone tells you but for some reason you mention that. You do know she was weakened and losing her powers right?

You: Yea Superman got beat up by an old lady so he definitely can't beat Wonder Woman!

Everyone else: But he was under Kryptonite that was killing him and making him weaker.

You: Yea Superman got beat up by an old lady so he definitely can't beat Wonder Woman!

Please. Please tell me how missiles are even relevant when Superman can dodge bullets moving over Mach 5? Especially "anti tank missiles" when those were moving super slow? And why would he use an Anti-tank missile on a PERSON? Especially one that he just met? Has he ever done this? Oh yeah and prove that he's even going to think to use missiles on Superman. I can't recall when he's ever done that in a 1v1 battle but only groups. He didn't do it to whiplash, he didn't do it to Thor, he didn't do it to monger, he didn't do it to the Extremis. If anything he only hits people and uses pulsar beams.

seriously, no-ones gonna reply to @isaac_clarke's posts? i know his posts are overwhelmingly ridiculous and that but seriously, no-ones got a problem with him saying lightning is a durability feat or where nam-ek threw that locomotive from is speculation or any other errors he's made?

@wardemon32: If I heard you say all that in person, it would sound like the time I had diarrhea a few days ago. No offense.

I don't need to give you proof for **** because I never stated anything as a fact. I simply pointed out you don't have any either. I don't need to give you proof for **** because I never stated anything as a fact. I simply pointed out you don't have any either. Next time respect others, read what they wrote and don't waste their time.

"@wardemon32: I don't know or think Hulk was KOed, after distancing himself from the scepter Bruce could have subconsciously suppressed the Hulk, either way it's poor evidence because there's no context but rather opinions on what could have happened including my own.

But he has fallen from great Heights with no problem at all, so there is more evidence to suggest falling from those heights shouldn't be a problem than not."

If you are Hulk you do, otherwise your healing ability will just take care of it. So what if he is laying the same spot? That automatically means he got KO'd? Just because he didn't want to move? There have been numerous instances where Hulk randomly turns to Banner for no reason but because here we see him fall people like to assume that it actually KO'd when there is nothing that implies that and in fact there is multiple evidence to support otherwise. Him staying in that spot is just Hulk not wanting to get up or move he was done raging and the guy took blows from Abomination and Thors Miljonir which would hurt him a lot more than a fall would and he still wasn't KO'd.

Also you do realize that he started turning into the Hulk before he hit the ground? Otherwise Banners human body alone would not cause a huge hole in the middle of a street from falling and he wouldn't have survived that fall in the first place so not even a fully transformed Hulk managed to shrug of a fall with ease yet a fully transformed one that has been fighting Thor and a fighter jet and is obviously very angry at that point couldn't? Get out.

Man of Steel whould win.

@slimj87d:

Lol. Hold on. Let me get this straight.

I make a claim and you try to say I'm wrong. You never said probably, possibly, but, however, nor anything else to give the slightest hint that it wasn't "stated anything as a fact" by you but it would be wrong for me to ask you for proof? You have to sign "this is a fact" behind a claim to state it as fact now?

Ahh I ge--. Wait. I'm still confused.

I'm able to give some sort of proof as to why I believe I got KOd but you try to build this claim off of him "controlling Hulk" though it waas only in one aspect and that is only half way to be labeled "proof", but giving valid proof isn't needed?

There is no evidence to suggest that he can survive high falls? Becuase he fell out of a helicopter that was no where near as high as the carrier? Damn I guess I'm invincible since I fell 3 feet off of the ground. Surely I wont get hurt by 10?

I disrespected you? By asking you a question? Damn you must really feel disrespected since I just wrote two behind this. And I'm wasting your time though you were the one who messaged me though I never asked you to? And "wasting your time" is disagreeing with you? And wasting your time is asking for proof that he can revert himself back to Hulk, which is the only relevant thing here to support your claim, instead of just reverting to Hulk? Cool. Don't reply.

@raynorj

I'm pretty sure the same goes for him also. How do you heal from getting losing conciousness? Yes he was most likely knocked out if he was just sitting there doing nothing. I would laugh at someone if someone was to tell me they got in a fight and say they were hit to the ground and "just laid there" instead of admitting to a knock out and I know he's the type to rage out when he keeps on getting hit. When have we ever seen Hulk submit?

Thors and Abominations hits obviously doesn't have as much impact as falling from the sky. And there's nothing to suggest they do. When he took these blows didn't he get up afterwards? When have we ever seen Hulk just be like "f**k it, ain't nobody got time for this" and just stop raging?

That hole was just to make the scene more epic and bring the suspense of "did he die". Even when he pulled his hands out it was still about normal. If he was already reverting it shouldn't have taken him that long once transformation began. Just becuase I can take a punch to the face without getting KOd doesn't mean I can take all hits.

Anyways I'm done with this.

@wardemon32: You said you don't get KO'd from the impact instantly which means you implied he would feeling dizzy and woozy and that fall unconscious but his healing factor prevents that. Well than prepare to die off laughter because there are countless examples of people fighting and falling on their ass and saying no more as they tap out especially in mix martial arts while they are not knocked out or anything they just lay or sit there in one spot as the medics clean their wounds or stabilize them. Seriously i can't believe you said such a silly thing.

They obviously do have more impact because Thors hits with miljonir broke more ground than the Hulk did as he fell and Hulks clash with Abomination caused shock waves that broke glass all around them. He got up after them because he was in a fight he fell of the damn hell carrier and jet fighter there was no one to fight anymore.

You are literally denying the obvious and being completely ignorant because i have undeniable proof that Hulk fell(before he even fully transformed) from the chopper broke a big hole in the ground and was fine. I can't believe you would say such a stupid thing as it was there to make the scene epic. Wow you fail hard.... it's really sad and pathetic how some people turn into trolls and grasp for impossible things once they have no more arguments and are served with counter arguments. When he pulled his hand out he was already fully transformed.

LOL.... a regular human survived falling from a huge height and making a van sized crater because it was to make the scene look epic... Ridiculous.... Especially considering how the Marvel movie universe tries to ground everything as much as possible into logic and science and doesn't have their heroes be nowhere near as ridiculous in power as they are in the comics.

@raynorj:

I just couldn't resist myself.

You said you don't get KO'd from the impact instantly which means you implied he would feeling dizzy and woozy and that fall unconscious but his healing factor prevents that. Well than prepare to die off laughter because there are countless examples of people fighting and falling on their ass and saying no more as they tap out especially in mix martial arts while they are not knocked out or anything they just lay or sit there in one spot as the medics clean their wounds or stabilize them. Seriously i can't believe you said such a silly thing.

When was it shown that his healing factor prevents things like that? How would that work. Explain.

Oh you mean when they lay there and get their faced bashed in until the referee come in and stops it because the other guy doesn't even have enough strength to even get up? Which is basically a TKO?

They obviously do have more impact because Thors hits with miljonir broke more ground than the Hulk did as he fell and Hulks clash with Abomination caused shock waves that broke glass all around them. He got up after them because he was in a fight he fell of the damn hell carrier and jet fighter there was no one to fight anymore.

So whenever Thor hits people he uses his full potential. Tell me. When Thor hit Hulk why didn't this happen? And who is to say that Hulks impact with the ground didn't cause a shock wave? Eitehr way, shock waves don't really happen when theres direct impact with the ground.

You are literally denying the obvious and being completely ignorant because i have undeniable proof that Hulk fell(before he even fully transformed) from the chopper broke a big hole in the ground and was fine. I can't believe you would say such a stupid thing as it was there to make the scene epic. Wow you fail hard.... it's really sad and pathetic how some people turn into trolls and grasp for impossible things once they have no more arguments and are served with counter arguments. When he pulled his hand out he was already fully transformed.

Ouuuuuu you said "stupid" and "pathetic" and "fail" to amek your agrument to sound more compellign when its based off of nothing! Wooooooooo! The only thing I was wrong about which I'm able to admit unlike some people *cough* *cough* was his hands being about normal. Don't get too hype yet. Still easily debunkable.

He even says "oh shit" becuase he realized that he wasn't transforming. But lets say he was at the last second. How would that be much of a difference from his original self? We've already seen him transform when he was with the Professor. It took him 17 second when he fell from the helicopter to bring his hands up. When he was with the Professor it took him 20 second but he was being restrained. Plus it seemed as if he was trying to prevent to turn into Hulk. In about 10 seconds his hands were full developed. We ddin't see the rest of his body. In avengers it only took him about 7 seconds for his hands to be fully developed into Hulk stage. Add a few more second to your 18 and that doesn't even add up.

I'll even give you this one and make an arguement for yourself becuase yours is absolutely terrible. Here's where I would give you the benefit of the doubt and had the least but of common sense.

My arguement if I was using your claims

Hulk transformed before he hit the ground. The reason this happened is becuase when you're falling from high grounds your heart tends to beat at a much higher rate. A few seconds before he says "oh shit" which shows feaR and in turns results to a faster heart rate. It was shown in the beginning of the movie that he had to keep his heart rate down to prevent from turning into Hulk.

Its funny how you basiclaly say I'm stupid and you most liekly think I'm a terrible debator though I'm able to make a more compelling arguement than you even though you're the one trying to make this arguement instead of me.

LOL.... a regular human survived falling from a huge height and making a van sized crater because it was to make the scene look epic... Ridiculous.... Especially considering how the Marvel movie universe tries to ground everything as much as possible into logic and science and doesn't have their heroes be nowhere near as ridiculous in power as they are in the comics.

Yes. And it worked. In the theaters everyone as at the edge of their seats to find out what happened or what is going next. This is something done in movies all of the time. But after doign a better arguement then you can making you look like an idiot. I don't think I need to say more. Even though its hard for me to not correct stuipid things.

@wardemon32: when I try to read your post it just looks like the Indian food in my toilet I ate last week. A big giant pile of diarrhea. Again, no offense.

@slimj87d:

Lol. Cool.

I'm the Indian Food(I made a point). You ate me(you replied without me asking your too). And then trying to debate with me it backfired and all of the shit came out of you? Ah I see.

Its hilarious to me becuase instead of making an actual debate you choose to do this lame ass insults. Sorry, lame ass insults that aren't needed but then you say no offense afterwards instead of tellign me how I'm wrong in any fashion*. Its funny how people are isn't it? They can't prove something so they get angry. Ahhh such a sad case, people like you make me loose hope for rationality and common sense. I'm in the wrong for asking you for proof of your claims.

Please. Please stop replying to me. You're embarassing yourself.

@wardemon32: @slimj87d: can't you both just agree to disagree

Lighten up bro, you're taking these forums to seriously.

or it's just because this fight has been going on for 13 pages of the same arguments and nobody is going to change somebody clearly

Man Of steel wins.

Clark stomps.

The dude wrecks the humans and with Cap's shield he tackles Hulk into orbit. Thor would just get his hair removed from his scalp.

It would, and time for a reboot.

Supes would break Cap's shield, I just finished reading through MoS's feats, its insane and I love it!

This is madness! This is DC!