Majin Dark Schneider vs The Flash

Can Majin Dark Schneider take out a bloodlusted Flash?

Rules:

• This is Majin Dark Schneider with NO Dragon Knight Lucifer
• Dark Schneider CAN'T use eternal atoms in this fight
• Both fighters are bloodlusted
• No morals
• No prep for either character
• Fight takes place on an indesctrubile planet
• Fighters start 500 meters from each other
• Win by death

Who dies?

Even bloodlusted i don´t see Flash overcoming Schneiders durability combined with his healing factor. Schneider on the other hand has casted spells that have blown away whole planets IIRC so i see him simply putting a poisonous cloud over the whole planet so Flash would have nowhere else to run.

Wally West could win. Steal all of his momentum. And IMP him till he goes down.

Dispel Bound.

/thread

Wallayy

Flash

I dunno... going to go finish Bastard!! now.

bump

@calebhara: @xlab3000: @godtriggerhulk: How does he get past db?

By blitzing him before he uses it, which he will do with no morals.

iirc ds is massively ftl.. I don't see anyone blitzing him, even flash. And even if he could, the durability?

Flash could hit simply spam IMPs until Dark Schneider is nothing but a pulverized hunk of meat. He could vibrate through his skull and cause his head to explode or he could just steal his speed so he's unable to do anything.

Flash can move at speeds hundreds, if not thousands of time FTL.

@comicstooge: He regenerates from nearly nothing, too. At least the eternal atoms are off here, otherwise he'd do so from nearly nothing.. and once he puts up his dispel bound?

Flash is capable of vibrating his molecules to the point were he heats it up, depending on how much energy he imparts into it. He could disintergrate Dark Schneider into nothing.

Basically what I'm saying is, Shneider won't have a chance to put up Dispel Bound.

@comicstooge: Has he turned someone to nothing as you said? I don't get why a massively mftl character won't be unable to react, first and second, if he's blasted as you say, regenerates and puts up db when flash is off guard? wally doesn't know he can regenerate from something like that, right? And will imp even work on someone who took a galaxy leveler and wasn't even ko'd?

@comicstooge: Btw, do you know ds well? It's been a while since I read the seris, and I got bored when they overpowered him, so just kept flicking through pages.. are judas pain and eternal atoms same?

Wally's been calculated to go 250 Quattuordecillion times the speed of light before in this thread, unless Schneider has feats like that, he won't be able to react.

If Wally attacks him and he starts regenerating literally the first instant after Flash notices, he'll just attack him again.

He also has the option of BFRing him into the Speed Force or taking him to the end of time/the universe and dumping him there.

I don't believe I've ever read it, so I don't know.

However just so you don't think I went into this thread ignorant of Dark Shneider, I did just check out a respect thread on the character, which gave me a pretty good idea of what he's capable of.

@comicstooge: Tuning radios and carrying people around.. scanning faces.. how fast does he actually fight?

There's a massive amount of context surrounding that feat. He was only capable of doing that after using speed steal on everybody (including all superpowered beings) on Earth. His fastest speed feat puts him at trillions of times the speed of light.

Edit: Also, BFR isn't allowed.

Oh hey, someone saw my Human Race calcs. Neat. But yeah Wally can only recreate that feat with prep.

I'd put up an argument but I know absolutely nothing about Dark Schneider so it's not my place to argue for Wally on this one.

Darshe wins. As Maijin he automatically has dispellbound on.

Schneider wins, don't see what Flash could do against db

@dredeuced: Nah, you can still be helpful.. Can he put down someone who tanks galaxy levelers?

Depends. Is the guy susceptible to A: Having his brain shut off via speed control or B: Atomization via phasing? Those are Wally's best tools against someone who's too powerful to put down with IMPs. I don't know crap about Dark Schneider's apparent regeneration capabilities so for all I know atomization won't do crap to him and I don't even know if he has a brain or nervous system for Wally to screw with.

Are you sure? I don't remember this. And I just went back and checked and I didn't see anything about DS automatically having Dispel Bound activated.

Flash can shut someone's brain off via "speed control"? Did DC just pull these powers out of their ass? What does that even mean, lol? And how does it work?

Also, are you sure he can atomize matter? I thought Flash's phasing power just worked at the molecular level?

Yeah, Walter West screwed with Dr Alchemy's nervous system and junk with his powers and Wally later screwed with Max Mercury's nervous System and internal organs while pretending to be Professor Zoom. He's stated what he does is atomization, I'll get you the scan in a bit.

@dredeuced: He actually has a near infinite regenerating shields defense,called dispel bound protecting him against anything. Even without that, he is pretty durable.. With some crazy ability, he regenerates from literally nothing.. You get the idea why I got bored with the manga lol

But leaving all that, If he dispel bound auto when in this form, will flash be able to do anything?

Has flash done the mentioned things to someone with galaxy++ durability?

And how much is his combat speed, has he blitzed someone massively ftl?

Here's him saying anything he phases his molecules through causes atomization:

Usually he just says "blows up" but I suppose that's the same thing.

Here's Walter West screwing with Dr. Alchemy's brain just cuz:

Technically this is Walter West who is not the exact same person as Wally West -- but their powers are exactly the same. Walter's just kinda evil.

Wally has shown similar abilities, here he is doing it to Max Mercury (this is him disguised as Eobard Thawne):

Here's him unmasking himself for those who are skeptical if this is him -- you can tell it's the same art as that's the exact same Kadabra and Replicant.

So yeah, if Schneider has a brain then Wally could, presumably, speed up and slow down different parts of it so that his brain can't function and effectively super torture him or shut it off all together (Frankly he could just speed steal his neurons and he can't think anymore).

It's not really pulling additional powers out of their asses, just using his speed steal and speed lend in a more macabre way.

There are very few massively FTL people in DC. The closest I can think of is when he one shotted Professor Zoom, but even then I wouldn't say he blitzed him (Professor Zoom even got the first hit).

Assuming Wally is fighting to the utmost of his abilities then it'd depend on how massively FTL Dark Schneider is. I don't know how much so I can't calc if Schneider should be able to react to Wally. I also don't know if anything I'm saying would work because I don't know his regenerative/reforming capabilities.

@dredeuced said:

@uberhikari said:

@dredeuced said:

@princearagorn1 said:

@dredeuced: Nah, you can still be helpful.. Can he put down someone who tanks galaxy levelers?

Depends. Is the guy susceptible to A: Having his brain shut off via speed control or B: Atomization via phasing? Those are Wally's best tools against someone who's too powerful to put down with IMPs. I don't know crap about Dark Schneider's apparent regeneration capabilities so for all I know atomization won't do crap to him and I don't even know if he has a brain or nervous system for Wally to screw with.

Flash can shut someone's brain off via "speed control"? Did DC just pull these powers out of their ass? What does that even mean, lol? And how does it work?

Also, are you sure he can atomize matter? I thought Flash's phasing power just worked at the molecular level?

Here's him saying anything he phases his molecules through causes atomization:

Usually he just says "blows up" but I suppose that's the same thing.

Here's Walter West screwing with Dr. Alchemy's brain just cuz:

Technically this is Walter West who is not the exact same person as Wally West -- but their powers are exactly the same. Walter's just kinda evil.

Wally has shown similar abilities, here he is doing it to Max Mercury (this is him disguised as Eobard Thawne):

Here's him unmasking himself for those who are skeptical if this is him -- you can tell it's the same art as that's the exact same Kadabra and Replicant.

So yeah, if Schneider has a brain then Wally could, presumably, speed up and slow down different parts of it so that his brain can't function and effectively super torture him or shut it off all together (Frankly he could just speed steal his neurons and he can't think anymore).

It's not really pulling additional powers out of their asses, just using his speed steal and speed lend in a more macabre way.

Thanks for the scans. Who's the strongest person Walter (or Wally) has used these abilities on. Could he use these abilities on someone who's skyfather level in terms of durability?

@uberhikari: Those are literally the only times any version of the Flash has used speed lending powers on somebody like that. He has used it on energy before so electric neurons, assuming Schneider has those, shouldn't be any more difficult. Then again his brain clearly isn't normal since you can't perceive things at FTL using the speed of electrical signals in one's head. WHO KNOWS, lol.

Anyone who can be affected by speed steal, I guess? The only person who has ever resisted Wally's kinetic control is Zoom. The most powerful person Wally's ever speed stolen is probably fully powered Amazo, or, like, the entire planet I guess. Durability seems to have nothing to do with the power itself -- it's not like your ability to move is durable or whatever. Jay Garrick sucks at speed stealing and he could do it to Superman, for instance.

@dredeuced: Hmmm... This is very interesting. DS was initially described as being an enhanced/experimental human; although it's not known what this experimentation entails. I would just go with saying he's some kind of human but the Judas Pain changes him a lot. From a physiological standpoint it's not clear what he is once he uses the Judas Pain. For example, he has a mouth on his stomach that allows him to eat organic matter, "record" it's atomic structure, and recreate it via molecular manipulation. And this molecular manipulation even occurs on the level of the soul and spirit. He can literally restore damage done to people's souls and spirits.

Here DS is described as possessing power that only God has.

I guess I brought up the question of durability because this ability seems so abstract that it could potentially become a no limits fallacy. So, I suppose the proper question is: Who's the most powerful being who would be affected by speed steal? I mean could Flash do this to pre-retcon Molecule Man, for example? Dark Schneider isn't as strong as MM but he's at least skyfather level. I mean could he really damage the organs of someone with skyfather level durability with nothing but speed lend?

*Also, I'm certain that if Flash tried to torture DS using speed lend it wouldn't do anything. DS has an amazing amount of pain soak. He's continued to fight even with his limbs ripped off. And the Judas Pain by itself causes DS every kind of pain imaginable: spiritual pain, pain of the soul, physical pain, and even emotional pain.

@uberhikari: As I said, the most powerful person Wally ever actively speed stole was Amazo. I mean he presumably took the speed of everyone on Earth during The Human Race but that was all done willfully so eh.

I don't mean to no limits fallacy this -- that's why I specifically brought up Wally using kinetic control on Schneider's nervous system -- if someone has enough speed/mass behind them, then Wally, traditionally, takes a little longer to speed steal it that he does a normal sized/speed person, like when he tried to speed steal a city sized space ship as it crashed into the earth or, well, the movement of the entire Earth itself through space. Presumably, if he had a brain, his neurons wouldn't be too difficult/large/massive for Wally to affect.

The thing is, it's not really no limits against durability so much as he's not affecting durability. Kinetic energy is not something that receives a character's durability attached with it. It's like if you used a spiritual attack on someone who was 100% physically invincible.

@dredeuced: The only reason why I think durability comes into the mix is because you said Wally could use speed lend to damage people's internal organs. If you say someone can use an ability to damage someone physically, i.e., their internal organs, then how does durability not come into play?

As for using speed steal to shut down Dark Schneider's brain, I suppose as long as he has a brain that's possible. Durability has nothing to do with using speed steal in this way. But if Wally can use this type of ability on anybody who has a brain, then presumably he could also use this ability on pre-retcon Beyonder, right?

Not in the slightest. Pre Retcon Beyonder doesn't have a brain. He's literally just an entirely other multiverse condensed into a single being who decided to screw with the Marvel Universe. He killed Death. I don't think he functions in a way that would be conceivable by Wally or his powers.

This power shouldn't work on any abstract being, really, or dudes who don't actually have "brains" like Galactus even though he looks like a person to us.

It could possibly work on Molecule Man because he is a man who had a brain, but he might be able to control his own neurons more effectively than Wally because, well, he's Molecule Man. That's the thing about reality warpers -- they warp reality. Kinetic energy is part of that reality they warp, lol.

When Wally West punched Zoom, he punched him at the speed of light only and it was equal to a white dwarf star's energy.

We all know Wally with no morals and going all out can move much faster than just the speed of light and therefore punch with far greater force than a white dwarf star.

So Wally's light speed punches would shatter planets with each one. Depending how how many times more faster he moves than light speed should be an equivalent multiplier to the size of planet Earth.

White Dwarf star = size of planet Earth

F = ma is a linear equation

Speed of light punch = White Dwarf star punch

@slimj87d: Disagreed. F=ma doesn't work well with relativistic mass/force iirc. Also, are over-light speed punches stronger than imp in dc verse? Because seemingly, when superman has to physically break something, he travels at near light speed, when he's capable of far more.. or majestic going into sea at near light speed.. they go as close as possible to light speed. But not above that. Now, how to interpret this is the question.

How could you disagree? Flash references it. Explain the logic with disagreeing with F = ma or p = va which is a integral of F = ma?

Superman doesn't have the speed force, he can't increase his durability. His durability remains the same, so going faster than light speed could kill him. Going below light speed and hitting a moon almost killed him, he got KOed.

The Flashes abilities work with time displacement where he pretty much exist in a time different than ours. So as he goes faster his durability proportionally increases with him since the effects of everything else is hitting him at a slower rate, etc.

@slimj87d: Many of the laws of classical mechanics falter when we move towards relativistic one. The equation works well when the variation in mass is small. But as we approach light speed, the equation is not useful. There is reason why they had to invent relativistic mechanics.. (That is,most of the Newtonian counterpart fails for high speeds.)

That is true and only true because to move at light speeds and above an object pretty much has to be massless (pretty much what the whole game mass effect is based on), but you're disregarding the "speed force" a fictional aura that retains his speed.

Wally's powers work by displacing himself at a different time, something that would never happen in modern science. That's why he retains his mass at above light speeds. As for Superman, I don't know what happens to him as Darkseid's scientist don't even understand how his powers work nor does the Flash. The Flash has commented that every speedster taps into the speed force a little bit but they cannot control it like a true speedsters.

Now factor in the speed force with Newton's law and you have the IMP.

Look here my friend, this is where you are thinking way into the real world and you completely ignored the fictional part of comics. You need to think in terms of comic book science, somewhere in between. Special relativity proves that "One of the consequences of the theory is that it is impossible for any particle that has rest mass to be accelerated to the speed of light" yet the Flash obviously moves at light speeds and above via Speed Force.

Now prepare to agree to disagree.

@slimj87d: If the speed force helps keep flash's mass same, then how does it become 'infinite mass punch'?

The force in the blow is simply wally west's mass * his acceleration. What causes infinite mass punch is the increase in mass.. And if it says same, it's not much of a threat..

And if speed force is incompatible with laws of physics, why would the linear relationship work?

Sorry, I wrote Beyonder instead of Molecule Man, lol. But yeah, this makes perfect sense.

He's just referencing relative to us that an object that moves towards the speed of light has it's mass increase. Reference Dr. Michio Kaku I don't remember the time in this video. Watch it all anyways because it's awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NbBjNiw4tk

Lets make it simple. Special relativity, what you are referencing, proves that ""One of the consequences of the theory is that it is impossible for any particle that has rest mass to be accelerated to the speed of light"

The Flash with his speed force is pretty much "what if a group of particles could move at the speed of light and even above?"

We can agree to disagree but you better have some good logic that describes the IMP and how it works. We'll let the audience decide who is right.

Exactly, the writers screwed up the physics in a lot of different ways.

First, they said that when Flash uses IMP he "punches with the force of a white dwarf star" but this doesn't make sense. A white dwarf star doesn't have "force". It would be like saying I punched with the force of a building; that makes no sense, lol.

Second, the formula for force is: F = m * a. That's mass x acceleration. However, the speed of light isn't a measure of acceleration...it's a measure of speed, lol. So, you can't plug the speed of light into the formula for force because it uses acceleration and not speed.

Third, the writers mistakenly believed that as an object approaches the speed of light its mass becomes infinite. This is obviously not true, if it were then photons would have infinite mass, lol. In fact, photons have a mass of 0. However, the energy-mass equivalency equation is: E = mc^2. That's mass x the speed of light squared. Well, if you remember your algebra and you remember how to balance equations, you'll realize that whatever you do to one side of the equation you must do to other, right? Well, since c (the speed of light) is constant, and as you approach the speed of light you need an infinite amount of energy (E), then mass must also be approaching infinity, right? Right...and wrong.

Physicists realized how confusing the E = mc^2 formula was and they started to make a more explicit distinction between different types of mass. There's invariant mass (or rest mass) and then there's relativistic mass. As an object approaches the speed of light, its relativistic mass increases, but it's invariant mass (rest mass) remains constant. Thus, in reality, as Flash approaches the speed of light his invariant mass remains constant but his relativistic mass increases. Basically what this means is that an object's mass doesn't really increase as it approaches the speed of light. Your mass as you approach the speed of light is the same as your mass if you're resting.

And since Flash can move at FTL speeds this makes things even more complicated and confusing. The writers really messed up on this one.

@uberhikari: Yes, the writers messed up, but they came up with the "speed force" for a reason. It's a patch that says "hey if it doesn't make sense, it's because the speed force patches it up."

LOLOLOL!

Exactly. Speed force allows him to defy the laws of physics. So why would the linear relationship work?

But anyway, where is the white dwarf reference? And the energy equal to dwarf star, as in, it's luminosity? (The energy released by any star in unit time is luminosity)