#1 Posted by OmegaDynasty (9190 posts) - - Show Bio
 
 
  
 
 
Magneto 
vs 
The Darkness 
 
Rules: 
Winner by death, KO, entrapment. 
Fight at night. 
Morals off. 
Start off fifty feet.  
Both have thirty minutes of prep. 
 
Location: Jackie's House: 
 
#2 Posted by Magethor (1054 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends. Darkness might win if Magneto let's shadow and light through his forcefield. But if Magneto is in his astral form, Magneto can win with ease.

#3 Posted by OmegaDynasty (9190 posts) - - Show Bio
@Magethor said:
Depends. Darkness might win if Magneto let's shadow and light through his forcefield. But if Magneto is in his astral form, Magneto can win with ease.
Does Magneto have any defense from the whole darkness inside of your body attack plan Jackie has used before? 
 
#4 Posted by Magethor (1054 posts) - - Show Bio
@OmegaDynasty said:
@Magethor said:
Depends. Darkness might win if Magneto let's shadow and light through his forcefield. But if Magneto is in his astral form, Magneto can win with ease.
Does Magneto have any defense from the whole darkness inside of your body attack plan Jackie has used before? 
 
Yes. Electromagnetism astral form.
#5 Posted by NeonGameWave (7786 posts) - - Show Bio

The Darkness stomps.

#6 Posted by IcePrince_X (4865 posts) - - Show Bio

i agree... unless Magneto has some form of magical resistance...he can feel movement within his surroundings and deflect it like he can stop or pinpoint where a teleporter will appear because of the em field distruption it does.

#7 Posted by Ultimate_Riddler (289 posts) - - Show Bio

They have prep? Magneto would do well not to show up, at least not physically. Even then I don't know what he would do in his astral form. I'm doubting Magneto will win this. Do they know what the other can do or is the prep just for them to gather resources? If not, then Magneto would die from lack of knowledge on his opponent.

#8 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmegaDynasty said:

@Magethor said:
Depends. Darkness might win if Magneto let's shadow and light through his forcefield. But if Magneto is in his astral form, Magneto can win with ease.
Does Magneto have any defense from the whole darkness inside of your body attack plan Jackie has used before?

Does Jackie have any defense from the metal in his body turning on him?

#9 Posted by dondave (37646 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Jackie can take alot of Damage, depends on what Magneto does him, for example when he was fighting then Angelus he decided to get stabbed in the chest just to get to her

#10 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: Taking a stab and being rended into pieces is as different in severity as Skin Knees and Decapitation.

#11 Posted by dondave (37646 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:From the scan you posted that was mainly due to their body Armour being metallic from what I saw

#12 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Lets put it this way. Darkness has massive Regen but still easily KOable and harmed.

Magneto has faster reflexes for sure.

Speed of thought Reactions.

+

=

A Major KO.

#13 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: Does it matter?

He can in a instant collect enough metallic dust in the air to make a city spanning sign.....

Theres no stopping this.

#14 Edited by DarkDay (634 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: I would point out though that Jackie actually meant to die in that scan and he assumed that the absence of light in an inferno/explosion would assure his death...he was incorrect.

And then there is the fact that while he can be at the fight and Mags probably would have superior reaction time, Jackie doesn't have to be the only Jackie in the fight. If he is in full control of The Darkness he can make whatever he'd like which as Aram The Witch King pointed out can be more of himself...or anything else that strikes his fancy.

Edit: As for the prep, I think whomever strikes first wins this one, but I'm not sure Mags's reaction time means that he does, especially seeing as Jackie has every shadowy corner coming alive trying to eat him.

#15 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkDay: Fact is Jackie isnt in full control of the darkness. That like going in a Superman Thread and saying "well if Superman Sun Dip a thousand years..."

Thats not the battle conditions here. Jackie current showings pale to Mags.

#16 Posted by dondave (37646 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:How is Magneto going to defend against Jacki's Darkling's?

#17 Edited by Wyldsong (5593 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@DarkDay: Fact is Jackie isnt in full control of the darkness. That like going in a Superman Thread and saying "well if Superman Sun Dip a thousand years..."

Thats not the battle conditions here. Jackie current showings pale to Mags.

Being in control of the Darkness -- which Jackie does pretty well at, Jackie has survived a full on bomb blast and a face full of RPG without being KO'ed or even scratched.

The scans were borrowed from Strider=)

That does not lot look like an easy KO to me -- some of these weaker showings often being due to an exploited weakness, or when he and his artifact weren't seeing eye to eye -- which is not all that often. He is exceedingly durable (we can even get scans of him surviving high caliber bullets from an attack chopper tearing through his body and him keeping on fighting), has insane regen, and can still teleport, create armies and weapons, and so on. His armor, weapons and darklings are made of primordial, supernatural darkness -- not metal. And there is the fact that Mags has no defense against the manipulating of the darkness in his body. Walls of magnetic force aren't going to protect him from the non-metallic darkness shredding his insides, regardless of Magneto's reaction time.

Now, this is not to say that Mags can't take Jackie down, but morals off, Jackie is going straight for the kill (he is morals-lite anyway) just like Mags would. Unless Mags has an instant kill option like Jackie (and the scan of him tearing apart someone wearing metal is not a good example), then he goes down. If Mags can kill him by manipulating the iron in his blood or something similar (which is there proof of that happening? I don't truly know), then great -- it wouldn't be a permanent death for Jackie, but it would still qualify as a technical win. Jackie can have low showings all he likes -- even Mags has them, but Jackie has an instant kill option that he doesn't even have to touch or even have to see Magneto to use:

The question is, does Magneto? I am not calling you out, I am really asking you if he has one.

#18 Posted by Immortal777 (7614 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkness FTW

I just don't see how Magneto will deal with Darkness inside his body.

#19 Edited by Ultimate_Riddler (289 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@dondave: Does it matter?

He can in a instant collect enough metallic dust in the air to make a city spanning sign.....

Theres no stopping this.

Magneto used a machine to focus his powers during that scene. Not sure if that has any bearing on the debate - just thought I would point that out.

#20 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

The Darkness.

#21 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ultimate_Riddler said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@dondave: Does it matter?

He can in a instant collect enough metallic dust in the air to make a city spanning sign.....

Theres no stopping this.

Magneto used a machine to focus his powers in order to accomplish that feat.

Just thought I would point that out.

That's after.

#22 Edited by Ultimate_Riddler (289 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion: I know, but he mentions giving them "another demonstration of [his] power," then monologues how he is using that device in this second demonstration. Plus this isn't out of character since he has used power boosting devices in many other stories.

#23 Posted by TheSwordsman (1954 posts) - - Show Bio

To coin a dated apophthegm: Magneto FTW

#24 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: Easy, by attacking first with the quicker Reaction Feats.

@Ultimate_Riddler said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@dondave: Does it matter?

He can in a instant collect enough metallic dust in the air to make a city spanning sign.....

Theres no stopping this.

Magneto used a machine to focus his powers during that scene. Not sure if that has any bearing on the debate - just thought I would point that out.

This was also Magneto first apperance when he was weaker as well. Since then he has perfom feat that put his first feats to shame with the machine.

So its definitely valid feat when Magneto had power enough to do this.

So the Feat you showed with Machine in the 60s <<<< to Magneto naturally in the 90s.

@Wyldsong: Morals off Magneto kills easy as well. Heck Magneto has killed with Morals on many times. Jackie cant take a guy who can Magnetically drop a School house or Large Multi Thousand Ton Ship on him.

#25 Posted by Ultimate_Riddler (289 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: I know, but I felt it worth pointing out every detail. I was originally going to also point out that using scans from the 60s for this debate was kind of pointless when Erik has done far more impressive things. Believe me, friend, I've got scan upon scan for Magneto. He's among my top favorite comic book characters of all time. Heck, my original user name on here was "Ultimate Magneto" (though make no mistake; I dislike the Ultimate universe.)

#26 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ultimate_Riddler: I been scanning most of my Uncanny X-Men Comics on my 40 Years of X-Men DVD. I like the feats from then and now. Magneto did casualy tank Professor Xavier Psy Attacks as well Phoenix blast.

He has good feats back then but not many. He did have GREAT Prep Feats with Duplication Machines, Power Enhancers, and Power Inhibitors.

#27 Edited by Wyldsong (5593 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Based on just that, actually, yeah, I still think Jackie can take him. Those aren't insta-kill attacks, and Jackie can basically still insta-kill -- once the dark things start growing and shredding Mags is done for. While Mags is lifting and throwing a structure or ship or other large objects to crush him or pierce him, Jackie grows something nasty inside Mags that kills him. He can think and react fast all he wants, but Jackie has been shown to be durable enough to survive things piercing his body (swords, high caliber bullets from apache copters and so on), things blowing up on him (RPG to the face mind you and bombs blowing up his home with him in it), and he keeps fighting through it all, and an attack like you have shown, will require some amount of time, no matter how fast Mags grabs it and throws it -- that ship and structure and so on are not traveling faster than thought. This is not a matter of being willing to kill, but a matter of him being able to kill Jackie before Jackie does something very nasty to him that he has no defense against.

Even if he can manipulate the iron in Jackie's blood...

Jackie doesn't exactly have normal blood when he is all "darknessed" out -- and by the way, that does not end well for the chopper. A viable insta-kill option is the only chance I see for Mags here, as Jackie has survived a lot.

Anyhow, thanks for the discussion, and good chatting with you. If you respond, it may be a bit before I can get back to you. Take it easy my friend.

#28 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wyldsong: Mags has plenty of Inst Kill options.

As seen he can manipulate the iron in Blood to great effect.

I also shown he has better reaction time feats than Jackie who shows Bullet Dodging at best.

so Insta Kill would be this.

Add in Magneto can also manipulate the Dust in the air into Projectiles that move at Mutiple Machs speeds (faster than Bullets again and worse than a RPG in damage).

Or Electrocute Jackie with equivalent of Lightning Bolts on Storms level.

Or just open a Wormhole that rips Jackie to shreds?

So many way of Instakill, and all at the Speed of Thought.

#29 Edited by Wyldsong (5593 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: I have shown you Jackie's blood is not exactly normal when using the darkness, so I am doubtful on the iron in the blood bit and that does not seem to be instant...piercing damage Jackie has survived and fought through, so not doing much (not sure if I believe the dust particles being more powerful than an rpg -- let's bear in mind RPGs have taken down and pierced tanks in real life -- do we have an example of Mag's using dust particles to pierce something like a tank? Do we have an example of his using dust particles offensively?) -- not to mention the fact that the attack with the shrapnel you have shown not really being faster than thought -- he has time to make a speech as he summons up the objects and throws them as shown in that scan and Jackie surviving high caliber rounds piercing his body...Jackie has tanked explosions and the like, so the lighting would be doubtful as insta-kill for his durability, and I am more than willing to bet that Beast survived that attack -- I am doubtful Hank is anywhere near Jackie's durability...and the wormhole is the only possible feasible option you have shown, but it would have to kill Jackie before he can even think -- and I don't see proof that he can just open that wormhole before Jackie get's a chance to think -- do we have an example of Mags wormhole tearing up someone with darn good durability before they can even think? To me, that looks like something he used to come back, for travel, not an offensive ability. Is there proof of the offensive capabilities of what he did there?

Oh and the scan again with the guys with metal all over them...Jackie does not wear metal...he wears the darkness made solid. But even if ripped in half -- well blown in half without the Darkness to shroud him, Jackie has been shown to to still crawl with coherent thought (not even at full strength here, one of his few rare points of having some issue with the Darkness) -- Jackie eventually falls over here -- even if Mags rips him in half while he is shrouded by the Darkness, I don't like his chances if he can even do this at this point:

I am not trying to slap you down or dis you, I just have questions that would have to be answered before I could back this play.

Alright, bed time for real this time. Good night=)

#30 Posted by SavageDragon (2252 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow some really great Jackie Estacado scans here making for a great argument. Based on these I will go with the Darkness. It would be a bad ass fight for sure.

#31 Posted by Magethor (1054 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

So many way of Instakill, and all at the Speed of Thought.

With a light year range. More potent the closer he is though, but even 50 miles away from him won't stop Magneto from detecting your frequency code and messing you up however he chooses to.

Magneto levitates Cortez from 50 miles away and pulls him to his location under 20 seconds

Every one and every thing that is matter to an incorporeal astral form has a frequency wave bandwidth that sync into this reality via Electromagnetism. So you can be a ghost, and still can't escape at the hands or the thought or the powers of Magneto.

He can assume an electromagnetic astral form.

And erase your mind if need be.

Doesn't matter where you are. Magneto (the golden eyes in the scan) can instantly track your electromagnetic frequency even if you can travel at the speed of light. Note that electromagnetism is virtually everywhere in the universe so therefore Magneto is neigh-omnipresent in his astral form.

Don't forget about the 1st scan which is only 50 miles. He can effect up to several light years remembering back when he effected all of those giant space bullets.

If Jackie has a soul and if his physical self is interacted in this realm by the laws of physics his very being here and interacting with a space-time continuum of electromagnetism will greatly effect his chances losing against Magneto. Magneto could defeat reality wrapers because of that mentioned. He can also defeat incorpeal beings because of that mentioned. So Magneto has a much higher chance of winning this than Jackie.

And did I hear regeneration?

Has everyone here forgotten that Magneto can regenerate too after being evaporated into nothing by Cortez? Guess people forgotten about that.

#32 Edited by DarkDay (634 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@DarkDay: Fact is Jackie isnt in full control of the darkness. That like going in a Superman Thread and saying "well if Superman Sun Dip a thousand years..."

Thats not the battle conditions here. Jackie current showings pale to Mags.

Not true at all honestly and a horrible analogy at that. Current Jackie isn't even The Darkness depending on your point of view. However if you consider him The Darkness, then it depends on what point in his career you mean and also the status of The Darkness at the time. At the moment Jackie isn't really The Darkness, but just before that little change he had managed to gain full control of the force itself and thus we have no idea how that would effect his powers and abilities. I'm trying to be fair here because I'm not sure what version of Jackie we're using, but as has been pointed out you are low balling the character based on plot or even outright differences in his grasp of his abilities that have changed considerably and that's why I pointed out what I did and asked if Jackie has full control of The Darkness because honestly he and it don't always get along, but at the same time it's nothing close to a sun dipped superman and more like "Hey is my superpower trying to manipulate me today or is it just going to let me do what I like?" The answer to that question isn't always yes, but assuming it is, then Mags doesn't have an easy fight at all.

@Magethor: A lot of the things you showed in your scans take time, time that Mags doesn't have. Either he kills Jackie with his first attack or Jackie does kill him. It is really that simple in this battle because yes Mags can amp his reaction time and yes he is devastatingly powerful, but likewise he doesn't always just jump to the more exotic uses of his powers and even if he does, Jackie has counters such as.

  • Creating Clones of Himself. These are not illusions and also they shouldn't be easily distinguishable from the real one simply because they are living, independent creatures. I don't have scans, however I'd point to The Other Darkness
  • Teleporting.
  • Creating anything that isn't easily noticed. Jackie has done this just recently with spiders and if he was able to create a complex drug out of darkness and his doppelganger can create disease, there is no doubt that he can create a poison or any number of harmful substances. And honestly Jackie can create anything he can imagine.
  • Anything Jackie can create, he can turn it into any other substance that he understands the basic concept or molecular structure of (and some he can't because he had been doing so subconsciously). He has turned an attack with The Darkness into water and also nitroglycerin, he has created gun powder, bio luminescence, electricity, and any number of other things. When it comes to the matter created by The Darkness Jackie is capable of matter manipulation.
#33 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkDay said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@DarkDay: Fact is Jackie isnt in full control of the darkness. That like going in a Superman Thread and saying "well if Superman Sun Dip a thousand years..."

Thats not the battle conditions here. Jackie current showings pale to Mags.

Not true at all honestly and a horrible analogy at that. Current Jackie isn't even The Darkness depending on your point of view. However if you consider him The Darkness, then it depends on what point in his career you mean and also the status of The Darkness at the time. At the moment Jackie isn't really The Darkness, but just before that little change he had managed to gain full control of the force itself and thus we have no idea how that would effect his powers and abilities. I'm trying to be fair here because I'm not sure what version of Jackie we're using, but as has been pointed out you are low balling the character based on plot or even outright differences in his grasp of his abilities that have changed considerably and that's why I pointed out what I did and asked if Jackie has full control of The Darkness because honestly he and it don't always get along, but at the same time it's nothing close to a sun dipped superman and more like "Hey is my superpower trying to manipulate me today or is it just going to let me do what I like?" The answer to that question isn't always yes, but assuming it is, then Mags doesn't have an easy fight at all.

@Magethor: A lot of the things you showed in your scans take time, time that Mags doesn't have. Either he kills Jackie with his first attack or Jackie does kill him. It is really that simple in this battle because yes Mags can amp his reaction time and yes he is devastatingly powerful, but likewise he doesn't always just jump to the more exotic uses of his powers and even if he does, Jackie has counters such as.

  • Creating Clones of Himself. These are not illusions and also they shouldn't be easily distinguishable from the real one simply because they are living, independent creatures. I don't have scans, however I'd point to The Other Darkness
  • Teleporting.
  • Creating anything that isn't easily noticed. Jackie has done this just recently with spiders and if he was able to create a complex drug out of darkness and his doppelganger can create disease, there is no doubt that he can create a poison or any number of harmful substances. And honestly Jackie can create anything he can imagine.
  • Anything Jackie can create, he can turn it into any other substance that he understands the basic concept or molecular structure of (and some he can't because he had been doing so subconsciously). He has turned an attack with The Darkness into water and also nitroglycerin, he has created gun powder, bio luminescence, electricity, and any number of other things. When it comes to the matter created by The Darkness Jackie is capable of matter manipulation.

as far as I knew from Darkness he never had full control or even half. Also You low ball Mags saying he doesn't have inst kill options when he could destroy the planet going all out.

#34 Posted by Smart_Dork_Dude (2638 posts) - - Show Bio

Jackie easily.

#35 Posted by Wyldsong (5593 posts) - - Show Bio

@Magethor: In the time he goes astral form, Jackie kills his body by manipulating the darkness inside like I have been saying -- then what happens to that form? As for doing things from 50 miles away, he does not have that here. They are stating at 50 feet from one another here by the battle rules -- is he going to go astral leaving his body defenseless right there? As for the rest, in the time he is trying to levitate Jackie, Jackie will have already started manipulating the darkness inside Mags.

As for regeneration, great, if he can come back, so can Jackie -- Jackie regenerates and comes back from damage consistently, does Mags? If that is the case, then it is a matter of who gets the first hit for the technical win.

You are showing me one thing that he can do, which leaves his body defenseless 50 feet from Jackie -- they start 50 feet apart by the OP -- it does not say he starts 50 feet from Jackie in his astral form, and you claim he has a much higher chance of winning this than Jackie? Jackie who manipulates the primordial force of creation, the darkness...where it is completely dark inside Mags' whole body, under his helm, clothing, and cape...that shadow that he casts and so on...in the time he goes astral Jackie could lobotomize him, pop his head, tear out his insides, grow all sorts of nasty things inside Magneto's body -- and he doesn't have to even touch Mags, or even move a muscle. No gathering of energy, no prep, just a thought to manipulate the darkness inside Mags.

I have yet to see one true blue insta-kill attack that Mags could perform that doesn't require something to be gathered, him going astral form, or something that can basically be done before Jackie get's a chance to grow something in Mags. The one scan I have seen that was supposedly faster than thought was Mags pulling up an electromagnetic shield -- not an attack -- and he had time to get off a full thought bubble before doing so, which isn't going to help here.

Magneto has power. A lot of it. I am not denying or even arguing that. He is a bad arse. But having the potential ability to destroy a planet doesn't prove he can insta-kill Jackie here, and Jackie has the means to take Magneto out quickly here.

#36 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wyldsong said:

@Magethor: In the time he goes astral form, Jackie kills his body by manipulating the darkness inside like I have been saying -- then what happens to that form? As for doing things from 50 miles away, he does not have that here. They are stating at 50 feet from one another here by the battle rules -- is he going to go astral leaving his body defenseless right there? As for the rest, in the time he is trying to levitate Jackie, Jackie will have already started manipulating the darkness inside Mags.

As for regeneration, great, if he can come back, so can Jackie -- Jackie regenerates and comes back from damage consistently, does Mags? If that is the case, then it is a matter of who gets the first hit for the technical win.

You are showing me one thing that he can do, which leaves his body defenseless 50 feet from Jackie -- they start 50 feet apart by the OP -- it does not say he starts 50 feet from Jackie in his astral form, and you claim he has a much higher chance of winning this than Jackie? Jackie who manipulates the primordial force of creation, the darkness...where it is completely dark inside Mags' whole body, under his helm, clothing, and cape...that shadow that he casts and so on...in the time he goes astral Jackie could lobotomize him, pop his head, tear out his insides, grow all sorts of nasty things inside Magneto's body -- and he doesn't have to even touch Mags, or even move a muscle. No gathering of energy, no prep, just a thought to manipulate the darkness inside Mags.

I have yet to see one true blue insta-kill attack that Mags could perform that doesn't require something to be gathered, him going astral form, or something that can basically be done before Jackie get's a chance to grow something in Mags. The one scan I have seen that was supposedly faster than thought was Mags pulling up an electromagnetic shield -- not an attack -- and he had time to get off a full thought bubble before doing so, which isn't going to help here.

Magneto has power. A lot of it. I am not denying or even arguing that. He is a bad arse. But having the potential ability to destroy a planet doesn't prove he can insta-kill Jackie here, and Jackie has the means to take Magneto out quickly here.

Well you believe Darkness will kill mags even tho he has slower speed and reaction feats and I prove 3 times over Magneto Killing Jackie for a Temporary KO.

#37 Edited by Wyldsong (5593 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: You haven't proven that he can kill Jackie instantly before Jackie get's a chance to get off a thought. Like I said, Jackie does not have to move a muscle or gather energy, and your one "faster than thought" example shows a full thought going off before implementation, and shows a magnetic force-field -- not going to do much for someone who can attack you from the inside out. At best, I would say draw, but I am still leaning towards Jackie for all the reasons I have been stating. Jackie is not easy to KO, I have already shown that, and is not easy to kill.

The times he has messed with brain tissue I have seen examples of, he was in exceedingly close proximity or was astral form and in close proximity. Everything I have seen requires him to gather other objects -- dust, metals, and so on, and again I keep seeing speeches and such as he takes the time to do so -- with projectiles causing piercing damage which Jackie has been shown surviving, fighting and keeps on going:

Bullets of that caliber would have shredded most creatures, and left an unrecognizable smear. I have even shown you half a Jackie crawling around, besides the fact Jackie has no metal on his person for Mags to play with, and his blood when shrouded in the darkness isn't even normal blood. And one last thing to point out on the blood...they ask what is that oozing out of his bullet wounds? The words are, "That Major White is Ocaso's army". That's the darkness he is bleeding there. As well, throwing large boats, structures and so on require time for the objects to actually reach Jackie -- and Jackie isn't exactly a turtle when it comes to movement, teleportation, and speed.

You have shown me awesome examples of Magneto's power, and I appreciate the scans and the intel on Mags. I really do, but I have yet to see solid proof of a lot of things (like the offensive capabilities of the "wormhole", the time it takes to form a wormhole, the effects of the wormhole on someone with insane regeneration and durability, and the ability of it to kill someone before their brain get's a chance to process a thought -- ie, insta-kill), and nothing conclusive that shows me that Mags can take Jackie down before he can get even a thought off. Jackie could feasibly lobotomize Mags with a thought -- it's really dark inside that skull. And full morals off, playing with Magneto's insides is his fastest killing ability/option.

I really think we are at an impasse here, as I have seen nothing that has convinced that still couldn't be argued. I am not even saying you are wrong, I just don't see anything that has changed my mind. Agree to disagree and move on I guess. Thanks for the discussion my friend.

#38 Posted by DarkDay (634 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@DarkDay said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@DarkDay: Fact is Jackie isnt in full control of the darkness. That like going in a Superman Thread and saying "well if Superman Sun Dip a thousand years..."

Thats not the battle conditions here. Jackie current showings pale to Mags.

Not true at all honestly and a horrible analogy at that. Current Jackie isn't even The Darkness depending on your point of view. However if you consider him The Darkness, then it depends on what point in his career you mean and also the status of The Darkness at the time. At the moment Jackie isn't really The Darkness, but just before that little change he had managed to gain full control of the force itself and thus we have no idea how that would effect his powers and abilities. I'm trying to be fair here because I'm not sure what version of Jackie we're using, but as has been pointed out you are low balling the character based on plot or even outright differences in his grasp of his abilities that have changed considerably and that's why I pointed out what I did and asked if Jackie has full control of The Darkness because honestly he and it don't always get along, but at the same time it's nothing close to a sun dipped superman and more like "Hey is my superpower trying to manipulate me today or is it just going to let me do what I like?" The answer to that question isn't always yes, but assuming it is, then Mags doesn't have an easy fight at all.

@Magethor: A lot of the things you showed in your scans take time, time that Mags doesn't have. Either he kills Jackie with his first attack or Jackie does kill him. It is really that simple in this battle because yes Mags can amp his reaction time and yes he is devastatingly powerful, but likewise he doesn't always just jump to the more exotic uses of his powers and even if he does, Jackie has counters such as.

  • Creating Clones of Himself. These are not illusions and also they shouldn't be easily distinguishable from the real one simply because they are living, independent creatures. I don't have scans, however I'd point to The Other Darkness
  • Teleporting.
  • Creating anything that isn't easily noticed. Jackie has done this just recently with spiders and if he was able to create a complex drug out of darkness and his doppelganger can create disease, there is no doubt that he can create a poison or any number of harmful substances. And honestly Jackie can create anything he can imagine.
  • Anything Jackie can create, he can turn it into any other substance that he understands the basic concept or molecular structure of (and some he can't because he had been doing so subconsciously). He has turned an attack with The Darkness into water and also nitroglycerin, he has created gun powder, bio luminescence, electricity, and any number of other things. When it comes to the matter created by The Darkness Jackie is capable of matter manipulation.

as far as I knew from Darkness he never had full control or even half. Also You low ball Mags saying he doesn't have inst kill options when he could destroy the planet going all out.

First I never said that Magneto doesn't have an insta-kill option. I believe you're mixing up your covos there. But long story short Jackie has had many varying degrees of control over The Darkness, but I'd ask what exactly would you consider half control? That's just a weird statement to me.

Jackie has always been manipulated by The Darkness, it would pull something and he'd react to it. It gave him control, but only so much. That was a cycle and one that he repeated for quite awhile before finally facing The Darkness itself and slaying its consciousness(which lead to him gaining full control, at least in a sense). As for his control, I asked about it, not in relation to Jackie's relationship with The Darkness however, but rather what point are we talking in Jackie's understanding of said power, because just recently he's learned a heck of alot and all of it in my opinion comes together to make him quite a threat to Mags.

As for Magneto destroying the planet, his ability to do so has no effect on this battle. Magneto could more than likely trash the Earth's electromagnetic field and cause its eventual destruction, so what...!? No one is saying that Jackie has more raw power than Mags. Though honestly I think he might or they might be very close (The Darkness is the power of creation while Mags's power is one of the basic forces of nature). Regardless, Magneto is much more educated in the usage of his powers than Jackie and could do many things that Jackie cannot. However you don't have to be able to do everything your opponent can to beat them in a fight. Like I said before, this fight comes down to whom can take whom out first. Jackie and Mags both have 30 minutes of prep. Mags might have something interesting set up in that time and it might even get him the win, but honestly that prep is going to give Jackie a huge advantage in my mind. In an instant, he can have an army of nightmares at his side. Give the man prep and you're just asking for some of this:

And as Wyldsong has pointed out, Jackie is durable, really durable. He can regenerate. As well as do all the things I pointed out earlier. And to back up those durability claims I finally found some scans. And this is against an enemy that knows about his light weakness, thus the phosphorous rounds.

#39 Posted by Pistolwhip1 (843 posts) - - Show Bio
@DarkDay said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@DarkDay said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@DarkDay: Fact is Jackie isnt in full control of the darkness. That like going in a Superman Thread and saying "well if Superman Sun Dip a thousand years..."

Thats not the battle conditions here. Jackie current showings pale to Mags.

Not true at all honestly and a horrible analogy at that. Current Jackie isn't even The Darkness depending on your point of view. However if you consider him The Darkness, then it depends on what point in his career you mean and also the status of The Darkness at the time. At the moment Jackie isn't really The Darkness, but just before that little change he had managed to gain full control of the force itself and thus we have no idea how that would effect his powers and abilities. I'm trying to be fair here because I'm not sure what version of Jackie we're using, but as has been pointed out you are low balling the character based on plot or even outright differences in his grasp of his abilities that have changed considerably and that's why I pointed out what I did and asked if Jackie has full control of The Darkness because honestly he and it don't always get along, but at the same time it's nothing close to a sun dipped superman and more like "Hey is my superpower trying to manipulate me today or is it just going to let me do what I like?" The answer to that question isn't always yes, but assuming it is, then Mags doesn't have an easy fight at all.

@Magethor: A lot of the things you showed in your scans take time, time that Mags doesn't have. Either he kills Jackie with his first attack or Jackie does kill him. It is really that simple in this battle because yes Mags can amp his reaction time and yes he is devastatingly powerful, but likewise he doesn't always just jump to the more exotic uses of his powers and even if he does, Jackie has counters such as.

  • Creating Clones of Himself. These are not illusions and also they shouldn't be easily distinguishable from the real one simply because they are living, independent creatures. I don't have scans, however I'd point to The Other Darkness
  • Teleporting.
  • Creating anything that isn't easily noticed. Jackie has done this just recently with spiders and if he was able to create a complex drug out of darkness and his doppelganger can create disease, there is no doubt that he can create a poison or any number of harmful substances. And honestly Jackie can create anything he can imagine.
  • Anything Jackie can create, he can turn it into any other substance that he understands the basic concept or molecular structure of (and some he can't because he had been doing so subconsciously). He has turned an attack with The Darkness into water and also nitroglycerin, he has created gun powder, bio luminescence, electricity, and any number of other things. When it comes to the matter created by The Darkness Jackie is capable of matter manipulation.

as far as I knew from Darkness he never had full control or even half. Also You low ball Mags saying he doesn't have inst kill options when he could destroy the planet going all out.

First I never said that Magneto doesn't have an insta-kill option. I believe you're mixing up your covos there. But long story short Jackie has had many varying degrees of control over The Darkness, but I'd ask what exactly would you consider half control? That's just a weird statement to me.

Jackie has always been manipulated by The Darkness, it would pull something and he'd react to it. It gave him control, but only so much. That was a cycle and one that he repeated for quite awhile before finally facing The Darkness itself and slaying its consciousness(which lead to him gaining full control, at least in a sense). As for his control, I asked about it, not in relation to Jackie's relationship with The Darkness however, but rather what point are we talking in Jackie's understanding of said power, because just recently he's learned a heck of alot and all of it in my opinion comes together to make him quite a threat to Mags.

As for Magneto destroying the planet, his ability to do so has no effect on this battle. Magneto could more than likely trash the Earth's electromagnetic field and cause its eventual destruction, so what...!? No one is saying that Jackie has more raw power than Mags. Though honestly I think he might or they might be very close (The Darkness is the power of creation while Mags's power is one of the basic forces of nature). Regardless, Magneto is much more educated in the usage of his powers than Jackie and could do many things that Jackie cannot. However you don't have to be able to do everything your opponent can to beat them in a fight. Like I said before, this fight comes down to whom can take whom out first. Jackie and Mags both have 30 minutes of prep. Mags might have something interesting set up in that time and it might even get him the win, but honestly that prep is going to give Jackie a huge advantage in my mind. In an instant, he can have an army of nightmares at his side. Give the man prep and you're just asking for some of this:

And as Wyldsong has pointed out, Jackie is durable, really durable. He can regenerate. As well as do all the things I pointed out earlier. And to back up those durability claims I finally found some scans. And this is against an enemy that knows about his light weakness, thus the phosphorous rounds.

Think this would be a pretty good match. However, don't see how Magneto can keep Jackie down for good. 
Just hope he doesn't underestimate Mags.