Magneto vs itachi

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Hiddenlight

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Genjutsu is TP, is chakra manipulation, is a NLF Magic, and sometimes is the only way Naruto Characters can even pull a win, really, it depends of the Naruto fans wishes, everything because Kishimoto had to ruin the continuity with Kaguya and the Mugen Tsukuyomi, why can't we just agree that IT works in a different way then normal Genjutsu and call it a day?

also. Magneto Stomps.

It's just TP, people should handle that, it works exactly like telepathy is portrayed, manipulating the senses or the functionality of the brain. And it wouldn't work on Magneto.

@llehdevil: Genjustu=/=telepathy.

Telepaths work by changing the functionality of the brain through many different mechanisms, that's also how genjutsu works. By your logic, telepaths from DC can't affect characters from Marvel because the psionic force doesn't exist in the DC universe. Itachi can't get past the helmet, so he wouldn't be able to affect the target. Further proof that genjutsu is related to brain, besides part of Jiraiya's statement, is that it needs visual contact, in any case the information would need to reach the brain to be interpreted by the body as it was explained many times. Also, even without his helmet, he endured a mental battle against Xavier itself using only sheer will, Itachi will get nothing from his mind. Also, I'm still waiting for your response to the amaterasu that I've send above :P

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MrUnsmiley

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#52  Edited By MrUnsmiley

@hiddenlight: As I stated before in the thread, genjutsu is not the same as TP. It isn't related to brainwaves in the slightest, and it doesn't require eye contact for it to work. Telepathy exists in the Naruto universe and it's nothing like genjutsu, which alters the users' perception. Literally nothing Magneto does can counter it, since willpower isn't a factor. The only way to counter genjutsu is for the user to reset their chakra flow, and even then it's sometimes not enough.

Itachi can easily alter Magneto's perception of time and torture him for what seems like days or years, when in reality only seconds have passed. Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu that requires eye contact, but Itachi and other skilled genjutsu users can perform plenty of techniques that don't require eye contact.

Magneto's helmet won't contribute because it resists telepathy, but genjutsu targets the victim's chakra flow, and has been proven to work on beings without chakra as well. Otherwise, Infinite Tsukuyomi wouldn't work.

Even then, if Itachi's desperate enough he can use Izanami to trap Magneto in a time loop that he can't break out of.

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KCMinato

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Magneto would most likely win relatively easily.

This is due to a few things:

1. Magneto has no chakra. This would cause Itachi to severely underestimate him.

2. Itachi's general M.O. is to start out with genjutsu of some kind, which would be completely and utterly useless against Magneto(and any character not from the Naruto-verse for that matter) since Genjutsu works via manipulating the chakra flow to the brain. And as already mentioned, Magneto has no chakra to manipulate.

3. Itachi generally doesn't pull out Amaterasu(his only real chance of beating Magneto) unless he thinks the opponent is a credible threat, at which point it would be too late.

1. Itachi never underestimates an opponent...

2. Wrong. Go see threads on this . Its been confirmed , genjutsu works on people with no chakra , for the millionth time .

3. Not really true at all . He used the amatarasu on sasukes fire ball jutsu .... He could easily dodge the fire ball jutsu or just counter it with his own fireball jutsu.

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Hiddenlight

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@hiddenlight: As I stated before in the thread, genjutsu is not the same as TP. It isn't related to brainwaves in the slightest, and it doesn't require eye contact for it to work. Telepathy exists in the Naruto universe and it's nothing like genjutsu, which alters the users' perception. Literally nothing Magneto does can counter it, since willpower isn't a factor. The only way to counter genjutsu is for the user to reset their chakra flow, and even then it's sometimes not enough. Itachi can easily alter Magneto's perception of time and torture him for what seems like days or years, when in reality only seconds have passed.

Magneto's helmet won't contribute because it resists telepathy, but genjutsu targets the victim's chakra flow, and has been proven to work on beings without chakra as well. Otherwise, Infinite Tsukuyomi wouldn't work.

You are using Jiraya's statement to your benefit while negating what was shown by Kaguya. See how it's contraditory when I mark them in that way? From what we know, it's simple, genjutsu alters the perception of the world (Or the senses in some cases) inside the target's mind, the statement from Jiraiya was already rebutted and we can't use that as a source of information, otherwise the Kaguya's feat isn't valid, and if it affects the mind and the body of the target, people with mental durability can resist it. If we take literally what you just said, Genjutsu doesn't work on people who don't have chakra, and at the same time can't be dispersed by people without chakra. And telepathy isn't just manipulating brainwaves, it have a lot of different applications, some of them completely unrelated to that. The mechanism that it uses to work is the same as the telepathy in other verses uses to work, so I can't see why it's that different.

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sally81919

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@dablackswrd: Yes. Genjutsu works by disturbing your chakra ( which is pretty much life force in Naruto ). Magneto's never used his chakra so he has no idea how to fight Genjutsu. But if he can fight with his eyes closed Itachi can't do shit to him.

Unless basic knowledge was stated in the OP which is not , magneto would not close his eyes to fight itachi lololol . Why would he do that . He knows nothing about itachi knows nothing about genjutsu. Opponent has no knowledge of the other as it wasnt stated in the OP . Hence , Magneto would not close his eyes. Even if he somehow realises how genjutsu works , too late , he'll be trapped in it already .

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sally81919

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Itachi uses Tsukuyomi and ends the fight at the start . and Yes Genjutsu works on beings with no chakra. Please stop saying it doesnt . Its getting really annoying . Unless the opponent knows a way or has a counter measure for genjutsu , he gets trapped in it .

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MrUnsmiley

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@mrunsmiley said:

@hiddenlight: As I stated before in the thread, genjutsu is not the same as TP. It isn't related to brainwaves in the slightest, and it doesn't require eye contact for it to work. Telepathy exists in the Naruto universe and it's nothing like genjutsu, which alters the users' perception. Literally nothing Magneto does can counter it, since willpower isn't a factor. The only way to counter genjutsu is for the user to reset their chakra flow, and even then it's sometimes not enough. Itachi can easily alter Magneto's perception of time and torture him for what seems like days or years, when in reality only seconds have passed.

Magneto's helmet won't contribute because it resists telepathy, but genjutsu targets the victim's chakra flow, and has been proven to work on beings without chakra as well. Otherwise, Infinite Tsukuyomi wouldn't work.

You are using Jiraya's statement to your benefit while negating what was shown by Kaguya. See how it's contraditory when I mark them in that way? From what we know, it's simple, genjutsu alters the perception of the world (Or the senses in some cases) inside the target's mind, the statement from Jiraiya was already rebutted and we can't use that as a source of information, otherwise the Kaguya's feat isn't valid, and if it affects the mind and the body of the target, people with mental durability can resist it. If we take literally what you just said, Genjutsu doesn't work on people who don't have chakra, and at the same time can't be dispersed by people without chakra. And telepathy isn't just manipulating brainwaves, it have a lot of different applications, some of them completely unrelated to that. The mechanism that it uses to work is the same as the telepathy in other verses uses to work, so I can't see why it's that different.

Just...look.

Genjutsu is the manipulation of the senses via the target's chakra system. Chakra being life force, aka not mentally-linked. Only later with Kaguya and Mecha Naruto was shown that it affects people without chakra as well.

The only way for people to resist it is to recognize they're in a genjutsu, and reset their chakra flow. That's impossible for people with no chakra training, or no chakra at all. Even then, sometimes it's impossible to escape a genjutsu if the practitioner is powerful enough. Telepathy has already been established in the Naruto universe. Ino's mind transfer technique is a ninjutsu that's essentially a projectile telepathic attack that causes the victim to submit. It works via chakra, but it's a ninjutsu technique that's specifically designed to attack the mind, and that can be resisted. The Yamanaka clan are the in-universe equivalent of telepaths in Naruto, it's their purpose as surveillance shinobi. Do you get it now?

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Hiddenlight

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@hiddenlight said:
@mrunsmiley said:

@hiddenlight: As I stated before in the thread, genjutsu is not the same as TP. It isn't related to brainwaves in the slightest, and it doesn't require eye contact for it to work. Telepathy exists in the Naruto universe and it's nothing like genjutsu, which alters the users' perception. Literally nothing Magneto does can counter it, since willpower isn't a factor. The only way to counter genjutsu is for the user to reset their chakra flow, and even then it's sometimes not enough. Itachi can easily alter Magneto's perception of time and torture him for what seems like days or years, when in reality only seconds have passed.

Magneto's helmet won't contribute because it resists telepathy, but genjutsu targets the victim's chakra flow, and has been proven to work on beings without chakra as well. Otherwise, Infinite Tsukuyomi wouldn't work.

You are using Jiraya's statement to your benefit while negating what was shown by Kaguya. See how it's contraditory when I mark them in that way? From what we know, it's simple, genjutsu alters the perception of the world (Or the senses in some cases) inside the target's mind, the statement from Jiraiya was already rebutted and we can't use that as a source of information, otherwise the Kaguya's feat isn't valid, and if it affects the mind and the body of the target, people with mental durability can resist it. If we take literally what you just said, Genjutsu doesn't work on people who don't have chakra, and at the same time can't be dispersed by people without chakra. And telepathy isn't just manipulating brainwaves, it have a lot of different applications, some of them completely unrelated to that. The mechanism that it uses to work is the same as the telepathy in other verses uses to work, so I can't see why it's that different.

Just...look.

Genjutsu is the manipulation of the senses via the target's chakra system. Chakra being life force, aka not mentally-linked. Only later with Kaguya and Mecha Naruto was shown that it affects people without chakra as well.

The only way for people to resist it is to recognize they're in a genjutsu, and reset their chakra flow. That's impossible for people with no chakra training, or no chakra at all. Even then, sometimes it's impossible to escape a genjutsu if the practitioner is powerful enough. Telepathy has already been established in the Naruto universe. Ino's mind transfer technique is a ninjutsu that's essentially a projectile telepathic attack that causes the victim to submit. It works via chakra, but it's a ninjutsu technique that's specifically designed to attack the mind, and that can be resisted. The Yamanaka clan are the in-universe equivalent of telepaths in Naruto, it's their purpose as surveillance shinobi. Do you get it now?

The point is, how it can work by manipulating the chakra of beings, as it was stated by Jiraiya, a person who recognized that himself didn't knew much about genjutsu and had problems to make them, and in the same time, work on beings without chakra at all? How you can manipulate the flow of something that doesn't exist? There are a lot of possible explanations:

  1. The mechanism explained by Jiraiya is incorrect
  2. Kaguya delivered the genjutsu after the chakra was spreaded by Hagomoro (This point you can't truly unprove, nobody can at all, it was only implied and explained but it wasn't in order, Kishimoto never made it clear for us)
  3. People already had physical energy, therefore chakra and chakra systems, and the Ninshuu was only the spiritual part divided among the humans (That would explain why animals can be caught in genjutsus).

Any of those would be enough to prove that Magneto could resist it, unless you can prove that he, or anyone outside Narutoverse, have chakra systems as they are portrayed in Narutoverse. Understands how the argument can be used on the other way around? Also, Mecha Naruto was a machine powered by chakra, with chakra-driven circuits (And not in canon continuity, it was only designed by kishimoto, but still was an OVA), this would only affirm what I'm trying to say. In my opinion, the number 1 is the most probably here, then it would work through an unknown mechanism that affects the target mind. Option 2 and 3 would render anyone out of Narutoverse immune to genjutsu.

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MrUnsmiley

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#59  Edited By MrUnsmiley

@hiddenlight: So, how is Magneto going to resist it? If we're agreed that he's susceptible to it.

Genjutsu resistance=/=telepathy resistance. The methods for resisting either are different, and willpower has nothing to do with genjutsu, only chakra control.

The fact of the matter is that a good deal was retconned in the later parts of Shippuden, but even if Jiraiya's description is inaccurate, the essence is that genjutsu at its core is manipulation of the senses via life force. Once again, telepathy has been established in Naruto, and genjutsu isn't anything like it. If this weren't the case, why does sound-based genjutsu exist?

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Fallschirmjager

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#60  Edited By Fallschirmjager

The kunai in itachi's jacket goes through his heart

Even if Itachi led with Amaterasu, its not breaking Magneto's force field.

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Khael

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Itachi wins via Genjutsu

Tsukuyomi =/= Telepathy,

Genjutsu only need eye contact, so helmet won't help anybody

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Saiyan77

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#62  Edited By Saiyan77

Magneto wins this

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pateuvasiliu

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''genjutsu targets the victim'schakra flow, and has been proven to work on beings without chakra as well. Otherwise, Infinite Tsukuyomi wouldn't work.''

Every being in Naruto has chakra. It's basically life force.

Magneto doesn't, because he doesn't live in the Naruto world.

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daBlackswrd

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Lol so I gather genjutsu works how ever narutards need it work in their favor

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daBlackswrd

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I think genjutsu won't work on magneto simply because magneto can control his own brain waves via em and has controlled others brain waves via em and has empowered other telepaths and depowered them as well via em

Now if genjutsu works by controlling the energys around the brain there's no way it will affect magneto as he has total control over those energys

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You all know that Itachi would win guys. Just admit it.

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Hiddenlight

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#67  Edited By Hiddenlight

@mrunsmiley said:

@hiddenlight: So, how is Magneto going to resist it? If we're agreed that he's susceptible to it.

Genjutsu resistance=/=telepathy resistance. The methods for resisting either are different, and willpower has nothing to do with genjutsu, only chakra control.

The fact of the matter is that a good deal was retconned in the later parts of Shippuden, but even if Jiraiya's description is inaccurate, the essence is that genjutsu at its core is manipulation of the senses via life force. Once again, telepathy has been established in Naruto, and genjutsu isn't anything like it. If this weren't the case, why does sound-based genjutsu exist?

In the same way that anybody outside Narutoverse (Well, maybe I'm stretching it too much, let's say Marvel Universe for now, sorry people, I only read bats and green lantern from DC, don't kill me) resists to attacks that target the user's mind. We saw many kinds of genjutsus, but overall, what they affect are some things that exist in Marvel and DC universes also affect, for example:

  • Illusions, usually associated with telepaths, but also with pheromone users (Daken for instance, Spider-Woman can do the same too if I recall correctly). Some chemicals can do the same, as Mysterio usually does.
  • Through magic reproducing all of the effects (Doctor Strange is also a really good illusionist)
  • Implying suggestions, usually through manipulating brainwaves, brainwashing usually, used through machines, as Tony did to Daredevil recently
  • Or, in Marvel Universe, through the Psionic Energy, an energy present in every single being, made by the life-force (Phoenix Force is the center of the Psionic Energy through the multiverse, so every single being that uses telepathy or any other psionic power, is using the power of a being made of pure life force). Magneto resisted to a psychic attack from Phoenix itself. All of the psychic effects described above can be done through the use of Psionic Energy, the energy that comes from Life Force itself, isn't that similar to something that you just said? This force is associated not only with the Telepathy, but also with the Telekinesis (And probably it's variations, as some characters can use that to bend the elements, like water and fire) and the Empathy.

All of those can be resisted with training, sheer willpower and raw power (But the resistances are completely differents, for instance, Hulk was already brainwashed but is highly resistant to psychic assaults). Just because the Yamanaka uses the technique to control the target or send messages, that doesn't mean that both their techniques and genjutsu don't work affecting the target's mind, just like not every Telepath can use Telekinesis or produce Illusions. Also, I will leave part of a wiki of Naruto here about chakra.

Chakra is created when two other forms of energy, known collectively as one's "stamina", are moulded together. Physical energy (身体エネルギー, shintai enerugī) is collected from each and every one of the body's cells and can be increased through training, stimulants, and exercise. Spiritual energy (精神エネルギー, seishin enerugī, English TV: Mental Energy) is derived from the mind's consciousness and can be increased through studying, meditation, and experience. These two energies becoming more powerful will in turn make the created chakra more powerful. Therefore, practising a technique repeatedly will build up experience, increasing one's spiritual energy, and thus allowing more chakra to be created. As a result, the ninja is able to do that same technique with more power. This same cycle applies for physical energy, except the ninja needs to increase their endurance instead.

So, according to the Databook and Manga, chakra itself comes from the mind of the user, those with experienced and trained minds also have more chakra to use, if the mechanism is unknown, we can only hold to what we truly know about genjutsu and chakra, and it's more related to the mind of the user and the target than you are trying to make it sound. The same applies to the sound-genjutsu that you just said. There are psionic abilities that work using only the senses (The phoenix force inflicts pain via the tact of the target alongside his mind for example).

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Chazz85

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#68  Edited By Chazz85

Itachi could blitz. If magneto puts his shields up and iatchi doesn't do amatersau right away he's fine. The tosuke blade ain't break a shield it took the phoneix to shots to break. Also on genjutsu

Genjutsu = TP

magnetos helmet blocks tp from xavier the best at the TP in the business so itachis genjustu ain't working here.

@mrunsmiley said:

@hiddenlight: So, how is Magneto going to resist it? If we're agreed that he's susceptible to it.

Genjutsu resistance=/=telepathy resistance. The methods for resisting either are different, and willpower has nothing to do with genjutsu, only chakra control.

The fact of the matter is that a good deal was retconned in the later parts of Shippuden, but even if Jiraiya's description is inaccurate, the essence is that genjutsu at its core is manipulation of the senses via life force. Once again, telepathy has been established in Naruto, and genjutsu isn't anything like it. If this weren't the case, why does sound-based genjutsu exist?

In the same way that anybody outside Narutoverse (Well, maybe I'm stretching it too much, let's say Marvel Universe for now, sorry people, I only read bats and green lantern from DC, don't kill me) resists to attacks that target the user's mind. We saw many kinds of genjutsus, but overall, what they affect are some things that exist in Marvel and DC universes also affect, for example:

  • Illusions, usually associated with telepaths, but also with pheromone users (Daken for instance, Spider-Woman can do the same too if I recall correctly). Some chemicals can do the same, as Mysterio usually does.
  • Through magic reproducing all of the effects (Doctor Strange is also a really good illusionist)
  • Implying suggestions, usually through manipulating brainwaves, brainwashing usually, used through machines, as Tony did to Daredevil recently
  • Or, in Marvel Universe, through the Psionic Energy, an energy present in every single being, made by the life-force (Phoenix Force is the center of the Psionic Energy through the multiverse, so every single being that uses telepathy or any other psionic power, is using the power of a being made of pure life force). Magneto resisted to a psychic attack from Phoenix itself. All of the psychic effects described above can be done through the use of Psionic Energy, the energy that comes from Life Force itself, isn't that similar to something that you just said? This force is associated not only with the Telepathy, but also with the Telekinesis (And probably it's variations, as some characters can use that to bend the elements, like water and fire) and the Empathy.

All of those can be resisted with training, sheer willpower and raw power (But the resistances are completely differents, for instance, Hulk was already brainwashed but is highly resistant to psychic assaults). Just because the Yamanaka uses the technique to control the target or send messages, that doesn't mean that both their techniques and genjutsu don't work affecting the target's mind, just like not every Telepath can use Telekinesis or produce Illusions. Also, I will leave part of a wiki of Naruto here about chakra.

Chakra is created when two other forms of energy, known collectively as one's "stamina", are moulded together. Physical energy (身体エネルギー, shintai enerugī) is collected from each and every one of the body's cells and can be increased through training, stimulants, and exercise. Spiritual energy (精神エネルギー, seishin enerugī, English TV: Mental Energy) is derived from the mind's consciousness and can be increased through studying, meditation, and experience. These two energies becoming more powerful will in turn make the created chakra more powerful. Therefore, practising a technique repeatedly will build up experience, increasing one's spiritual energy, and thus allowing more chakra to be created. As a result, the ninja is able to do that same technique with more power. This same cycle applies for physical energy, except the ninja needs to increase their endurance instead.

So, according to the Databook and Manga, chakra itself comes from the mind of the user, those with experienced and trained minds also have more chakra to use, if the mechanism is unknown, we can only hold to what we truly know about genjutsu and chakra, and it's more related to the mind of the user and the target than you are trying to make it sound. The same applies to the sound-genjutsu that you just said. There are psionic abilities that work using only the senses (The phoenix force inflicts pain via the tact of the target alongside his mind for example).

yay the genjutsu bull debunked

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Purple_D_Dragon

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@mrunsmiley said:

@hiddenlight: So, how is Magneto going to resist it? If we're agreed that he's susceptible to it.

Genjutsu resistance=/=telepathy resistance. The methods for resisting either are different, and willpower has nothing to do with genjutsu, only chakra control.

The fact of the matter is that a good deal was retconned in the later parts of Shippuden, but even if Jiraiya's description is inaccurate, the essence is that genjutsu at its core is manipulation of the senses via life force. Once again, telepathy has been established in Naruto, and genjutsu isn't anything like it. If this weren't the case, why does sound-based genjutsu exist?

In the same way that anybody outside Narutoverse (Well, maybe I'm stretching it too much, let's say Marvel Universe for now, sorry people, I only read bats and green lantern from DC, don't kill me) resists to attacks that target the user's mind. We saw many kinds of genjutsus, but overall, what they affect are some things that exist in Marvel and DC universes also affect, for example:

  • Illusions, usually associated with telepaths, but also with pheromone users (Daken for instance, Spider-Woman can do the same too if I recall correctly). Some chemicals can do the same, as Mysterio usually does.
  • Through magic reproducing all of the effects (Doctor Strange is also a really good illusionist)
  • Implying suggestions, usually through manipulating brainwaves, brainwashing usually, used through machines, as Tony did to Daredevil recently
  • Or, in Marvel Universe, through the Psionic Energy, an energy present in every single being, made by the life-force (Phoenix Force is the center of the Psionic Energy through the multiverse, so every single being that uses telepathy or any other psionic power, is using the power of a being made of pure life force). Magneto resisted to a psychic attack from Phoenix itself. All of the psychic effects described above can be done through the use of Psionic Energy, the energy that comes from Life Force itself, isn't that similar to something that you just said? This force is associated not only with the Telepathy, but also with the Telekinesis (And probably it's variations, as some characters can use that to bend the elements, like water and fire) and the Empathy.

All of those can be resisted with training, sheer willpower and raw power (But the resistances are completely differents, for instance, Hulk was already brainwashed but is highly resistant to psychic assaults). Just because the Yamanaka uses the technique to control the target or send messages, that doesn't mean that both their techniques and genjutsu don't work affecting the target's mind, just like not every Telepath can use Telekinesis or produce Illusions. Also, I will leave part of a wiki of Naruto here about chakra.

Chakra is created when two other forms of energy, known collectively as one's "stamina", are moulded together. Physical energy (身体エネルギー, shintai enerugī) is collected from each and every one of the body's cells and can be increased through training, stimulants, and exercise. Spiritual energy (精神エネルギー, seishin enerugī, English TV: Mental Energy) is derived from the mind's consciousness and can be increased through studying, meditation, and experience. These two energies becoming more powerful will in turn make the created chakra more powerful. Therefore, practising a technique repeatedly will build up experience, increasing one's spiritual energy, and thus allowing more chakra to be created. As a result, the ninja is able to do that same technique with more power. This same cycle applies for physical energy, except the ninja needs to increase their endurance instead.

So, according to the Databook and Manga, chakra itself comes from the mind of the user, those with experienced and trained minds also have more chakra to use, if the mechanism is unknown, we can only hold to what we truly know about genjutsu and chakra, and it's more related to the mind of the user and the target than you are trying to make it sound. The same applies to the sound-genjutsu that you just said. There are psionic abilities that work using only the senses (The phoenix force inflicts pain via the tact of the target alongside his mind for example).

hey @mudamudamudawhat do you think of that? for me it is a good argument. maybe this could be used in Marvel vs Naruto treats?

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#70  Edited By MudaMudaMuda
@hiddenlight said:

@mrunsmiley said:

@hiddenlight: So, how is Magneto going to resist it? If we're agreed that he's susceptible to it.

Genjutsu resistance=/=telepathy resistance. The methods for resisting either are different, and willpower has nothing to do with genjutsu, only chakra control.

The fact of the matter is that a good deal was retconned in the later parts of Shippuden, but even if Jiraiya's description is inaccurate, the essence is that genjutsu at its core is manipulation of the senses via life force. Once again, telepathy has been established in Naruto, and genjutsu isn't anything like it. If this weren't the case, why does sound-based genjutsu exist?

In the same way that anybody outside Narutoverse (Well, maybe I'm stretching it too much, let's say Marvel Universe for now, sorry people, I only read bats and green lantern from DC, don't kill me) resists to attacks that target the user's mind. We saw many kinds of genjutsus, but overall, what they affect are some things that exist in Marvel and DC universes also affect, for example:

  • Illusions, usually associated with telepaths, but also with pheromone users (Daken for instance, Spider-Woman can do the same too if I recall correctly). Some chemicals can do the same, as Mysterio usually does.
  • Through magic reproducing all of the effects (Doctor Strange is also a really good illusionist)
  • Implying suggestions, usually through manipulating brainwaves, brainwashing usually, used through machines, as Tony did to Daredevil recently
  • Or, in Marvel Universe, through the Psionic Energy, an energy present in every single being, made by the life-force (Phoenix Force is the center of the Psionic Energy through the multiverse, so every single being that uses telepathy or any other psionic power, is using the power of a being made of pure life force). Magneto resisted to a psychic attack from Phoenix itself. All of the psychic effects described above can be done through the use of Psionic Energy, the energy that comes from Life Force itself, isn't that similar to something that you just said? This force is associated not only with the Telepathy, but also with the Telekinesis (And probably it's variations, as some characters can use that to bend the elements, like water and fire) and the Empathy.

All of those can be resisted with training, sheer willpower and raw power (But the resistances are completely differents, for instance, Hulk was already brainwashed but is highly resistant to psychic assaults). Just because the Yamanaka uses the technique to control the target or send messages, that doesn't mean that both their techniques and genjutsu don't work affecting the target's mind, just like not every Telepath can use Telekinesis or produce Illusions. Also, I will leave part of a wiki of Naruto here about chakra.

Chakra is created when two other forms of energy, known collectively as one's "stamina", are moulded together. Physical energy (身体エネルギー, shintai enerugī) is collected from each and every one of the body's cells and can be increased through training, stimulants, and exercise. Spiritual energy (精神エネルギー, seishin enerugī, English TV: Mental Energy) is derived from the mind's consciousness and can be increased through studying, meditation, and experience. These two energies becoming more powerful will in turn make the created chakra more powerful. Therefore, practising a technique repeatedly will build up experience, increasing one's spiritual energy, and thus allowing more chakra to be created. As a result, the ninja is able to do that same technique with more power. This same cycle applies for physical energy, except the ninja needs to increase their endurance instead.

So, according to the Databook and Manga, chakra itself comes from the mind of the user, those with experienced and trained minds also have more chakra to use, if the mechanism is unknown, we can only hold to what we truly know about genjutsu and chakra, and it's more related to the mind of the user and the target than you are trying to make it sound. The same applies to the sound-genjutsu that you just said. There are psionic abilities that work using only the senses (The phoenix force inflicts pain via the tact of the target alongside his mind for example).

hey @mudamudamudawhat do you think of that? for me it is a good argument. maybe this could be used in Marvel vs Naruto treats?

Very good post IMO. His logic seems sound.

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@purple_d_dragon said:
@hiddenlight said:

@mrunsmiley said:

@hiddenlight: So, how is Magneto going to resist it? If we're agreed that he's susceptible to it.

Genjutsu resistance=/=telepathy resistance. The methods for resisting either are different, and willpower has nothing to do with genjutsu, only chakra control.

The fact of the matter is that a good deal was retconned in the later parts of Shippuden, but even if Jiraiya's description is inaccurate, the essence is that genjutsu at its core is manipulation of the senses via life force. Once again, telepathy has been established in Naruto, and genjutsu isn't anything like it. If this weren't the case, why does sound-based genjutsu exist?

In the same way that anybody outside Narutoverse (Well, maybe I'm stretching it too much, let's say Marvel Universe for now, sorry people, I only read bats and green lantern from DC, don't kill me) resists to attacks that target the user's mind. We saw many kinds of genjutsus, but overall, what they affect are some things that exist in Marvel and DC universes also affect, for example:

  • Illusions, usually associated with telepaths, but also with pheromone users (Daken for instance, Spider-Woman can do the same too if I recall correctly). Some chemicals can do the same, as Mysterio usually does.
  • Through magic reproducing all of the effects (Doctor Strange is also a really good illusionist)
  • Implying suggestions, usually through manipulating brainwaves, brainwashing usually, used through machines, as Tony did to Daredevil recently
  • Or, in Marvel Universe, through the Psionic Energy, an energy present in every single being, made by the life-force (Phoenix Force is the center of the Psionic Energy through the multiverse, so every single being that uses telepathy or any other psionic power, is using the power of a being made of pure life force). Magneto resisted to a psychic attack from Phoenix itself. All of the psychic effects described above can be done through the use of Psionic Energy, the energy that comes from Life Force itself, isn't that similar to something that you just said? This force is associated not only with the Telepathy, but also with the Telekinesis (And probably it's variations, as some characters can use that to bend the elements, like water and fire) and the Empathy.

All of those can be resisted with training, sheer willpower and raw power (But the resistances are completely differents, for instance, Hulk was already brainwashed but is highly resistant to psychic assaults). Just because the Yamanaka uses the technique to control the target or send messages, that doesn't mean that both their techniques and genjutsu don't work affecting the target's mind, just like not every Telepath can use Telekinesis or produce Illusions. Also, I will leave part of a wiki of Naruto here about chakra.

Chakra is created when two other forms of energy, known collectively as one's "stamina", are moulded together. Physical energy (身体エネルギー, shintai enerugī) is collected from each and every one of the body's cells and can be increased through training, stimulants, and exercise. Spiritual energy (精神エネルギー, seishin enerugī, English TV: Mental Energy) is derived from the mind's consciousness and can be increased through studying, meditation, and experience. These two energies becoming more powerful will in turn make the created chakra more powerful. Therefore, practising a technique repeatedly will build up experience, increasing one's spiritual energy, and thus allowing more chakra to be created. As a result, the ninja is able to do that same technique with more power. This same cycle applies for physical energy, except the ninja needs to increase their endurance instead.

So, according to the Databook and Manga, chakra itself comes from the mind of the user, those with experienced and trained minds also have more chakra to use, if the mechanism is unknown, we can only hold to what we truly know about genjutsu and chakra, and it's more related to the mind of the user and the target than you are trying to make it sound. The same applies to the sound-genjutsu that you just said. There are psionic abilities that work using only the senses (The phoenix force inflicts pain via the tact of the target alongside his mind for example).

hey @mudamudamudawhat do you think of that? for me it is a good argument. maybe this could be used in Marvel vs Naruto treats?

Very good post IMO. His logic seems sound.

Thank you guys :D

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Itachi, way more youthful

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ok this is my first comment in a thread. so, magneto has control over electromagnetism, one of the four basic fundamental forces of the universe. If he was bloodlusted he can just control the nervous signals of itachi and completely shut him down or just kill him from the base atom wise by changing the position of electrons and protons in him atoms. magneto is one of the strongest characters in marvel. the only people who may probably win him are cosmic level beings with control over other fundamental forces or over reality itself. so it all depends on who makes the first move. If magneto makes the first move it is gg , if itachi makes the first move he may be able to use genjutsu and control him but personally i think magneto wins.

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NeonGameWave

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Magneto.

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daBlackswrd

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@hiddenlight: THANK YOU!!!!!!!! your post made the most sense outta any genjutsu explanation ever

On that note I think we can call it Magneto got this one

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solo king solos

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#77  Edited By Hiddenlight

@dablackswrd said:

@hiddenlight: THANK YOU!!!!!!!! your post made the most sense outta any genjutsu explanation ever

On that note I think we can call it Magneto got this one

No problems :P And I'm happy that even my Uchiha friend agreed with that @mudamudamuda (Damn Uchihas, but you got this one).

Also, feel free to chose a rebuttal whenever you want @mrunsmiley I'm not the "Lord of the truth", you still have your points and it has been a nice debate here, I compliment you.

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Mags stomps hard. Itachi has 0 ways to hurt him. The forcefield blocks everything he can do and Genjutsu is useless.

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MudaMudaMuda

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#79  Edited By MudaMudaMuda

No problems :P And I'm happy that even my Uchiha friend agreed with that @mudamudamuda (Damn Uchihas, but you got this one).

As long as the explanation is good and makes sense, of course I'm going to agree. :p

After all, I'm not blinded by fanboyism like these senju fanboys.

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@mrunsmiley: So if it's chakra-based, he won't be able to use it right? I'm sorry, but there's no chakra in NYC.

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Magneto stomps.

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Depends on how quickly either decides to get serious. Itachi can instantly kill Magneto with Amaterasu or break his mind with Tsukuyomi, or Magneto can manipulate Itachi using the iron in his blood or use whatever BS powers he has now.

Wait..... Magneto is in a fight with a guy who freed himself from Zombie mind control (using an eyeball which he had shoved down someone's throat and booby trapped) before going on to save the world because his magic eyes, on top of unleashing unstoppable fire and forming giant flaming golems that shoot magic sealing arrows, let him lock people in mental time loops until they turn into good guys....AND HE'S THE ONE WITH BS POWERS???

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Magneto wins.

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daBlackswrd

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#86  Edited By daBlackswrd

@koays: ....AND HE'S THE ONE WITH BS POWERS??? Lmfao word

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GetOut

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@hiddenlight: Great explanation... but what do you think could happen if Magneto got pierced by the totsuka sword? Not saying that he would, just wondering.

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@getout said:

@hiddenlight: Great explanation... but what do you think could happen if Magneto got pierced by the totsuka sword? Not saying that he would, just wondering.

Being honest, we don't know how it would work. First of all, we don't know if it can get past forcefields. Also, we don't know how fast the sealing works, how much time it would take to seal someone with greater life force or mind-resistance, as it says that seals the target in a genjutsu world, so someone immune to genjutsu would be affected? I don't know. Also, we can't say that it ignores durability, as far as we know, it can pierce someone of an Edo Tensei level of durability or an Orochimaru level (I should mention that he was really weakened at that point). And before any "Ethereal" argument, Ethereal and phased attacks have been avoided and defended against in universes outside Narutoverse, and in no place in it's description it says that it just can pierce through anything avoiding durability.

This is one of the things that I will keep debating with Itachi fans, alongside the Genjutsu explanation and the fake lightning speed reflexes from Itachi.

But there's still one genjutsu that would work on Magneto, Izanami, as it's more like a reality manipulation instead of a direct mind control, still I can see Magneto eventually getting out of it, he really knows who he is and what he wishes.

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GetOut

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@hiddenlight: I only asked IF he got pierced by it, which would obviously not be the case. And you're probably right about the durability thing.

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@pateuvasiliu: I agree and disagree with your take on Tsukuyomi (Hail Lord Itachi). It only was shown to last 3 days or 72 hours in the series though Itachi illuded that he could make it last whatever time he wanted. My theory is that the longer he stretches it out in the realm of Tsukuyomi, be it months or days, the greater the strain on himself since it still only happens in 1 second in reality. Makes since to me that the longer you stretch a short amount of time the greater the strain. Like the less money you put down the higher your monthly payments on something lol.But I don't know he could stretch it for months but I don't think he'd need to because I believe he could outright kill him in Tsukuyomi, torture aside, and be done with it. What are your thoughts my good man

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@getout: whatever happened to nagato and orochimaru would be the same for magneto. "It is an ethereal weapon with an enchanted blade capable of sealing anything it pierces. Those who are stabbed by the sword are drawn into the jar and trapped in a genjutsu-like "world of drunken dreams" for all eternity;" The only weakness of it is that it could be evaded if fast enough

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#93 thedailybagel  Moderator  Online
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#94  Edited By GetOut

@hiddenlight: lol, why tag them? I agree that we don't know how it would affect people with mind resistance.

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@john_doe_0897: Kakashi states it clearly that Itachi could've killed him, but we can only assume that he didn't because it would strain him too much and compromise him and Kisame. I definitely think Tsukuyomi can be used to kill. It's also worth noting that the weaker one's mind the easier it is to kill them. Kakashi has a very sharp mind and had the Sharingan and he was still left in a coma.


I also agree with more damage = more strain on the eye. So I think you're spot on.

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Still Magneto. He manipulates the iron in Itachi's blood (which apparently even the edo version has) for the incapacitation.

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If Professor X has trouble manipulating Magneto's mind then Itachi has no chance here. Xavier >>>> Itachi in a battle of minds. Magneto just makes Itachi stab himself with his own kunai.

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#99  Edited By YodaPrime

we keep bringing up genjutsu but (correct me if i'm wrong) isn't that, in simplest terms, a mental attack? Mags helmet is specifically designed for that...

Even still, he has trained himself to have exceptional mental fortitude anyway.

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