Madara Uchiha vs Itachi Uchiha

@Milliardo:

Cuz itachi wankers be wanking.

No, you just obviously lost this debate due to inability to counter my points on why Madara beats Itachi. Thats it. Enjoy your loss.

Madara beats Itachi.

@jedisupermaster:

Yeah your featless character doesnt, youre just too ignorant to listen. And you post points for characters that dont have them. You dont even understand plain english, and you full on admitted you dont read other people's posts.

Bla-bla-bla. And thats all? I am waiting for you to answer on 188, 190, 192 and 193 post in this thread.

@jedisupermaster: Thats what I thought, no feats for a character. Youre just making shit up as you go, I already proved thevivas wrong on the who can beat itachi thread and hes 1000x better a debater then youll wver be. But keep ignoring statements and facts from the manga! Keep on not even reading other peoples posts, like you admitted. Jedisupermaster confirmed worst poster on this entire site.

Again, only bla-bla-bla. It is clear you have nothing to answer on the topic. And you proved nothing. You lost. Period.

Oh, and about Manga statements. I will reveal to you something that you might have forgotten.

Madara is superior to Itachi.

@jedisupermaster: According to you statements mean absolutely nothing. Let alone one as stupid as that. There of plenty of characters that can absolutely destroy madara. Pretty common knowledge. And again, you admitted you dont read other peoples posts, do you realize how stupid that makes you look? Go be ignorant somewhere else.

The only madara thats superior to itachi is edo tensei rinnegan madara and beyond.

Can you bring something to counter my previous posts? Because you didnt bring anything up to now. And if you cant, than you lost this debate because you cant prove Itachi can beat him.

And LOOOOL, what a statement. Plenty of characters that can absolutely destroy EMS Madara? At first, you made a statement that Gaara is not a kage level, and now this. I think you are just trying to troll me, thats all.

@jedisupermaster: You havent brought anything to the table besides feats that dont apply to EMS madara.

You want a list? EoS Naruto and sasuke, The first hokage, kaguya, Double MS kakashi, the sage, might guy, likely hamura and itachi. EMS madara isnt beating any of those characters. As I said, plenty.

I already explained why they can be applyed to EMS Madara and you didnt prove Kabuto enchanced Madara's speed and visual prowess.

I thought you mean plenty of shinobi characters, not some godlike creatures or godlikely amped shinobi. I can agree on any character you mentioned except Itachi. And Might Guy can beat him only after he opened 8th Gate.

@jedisupermaster: Kabuto stated himself he amped Madara. The only powers madara was referring to were the rinnegan and mokuton. The rinnegan in no way can be applied as he didnt unlock it till he was literally on his death bed. Senju can be applied if you states EMS madara + senju DNA. But we arent talking about that.

This is base EMS madara when hes alive, non edo amp, no rinnegan, no mokuton. Never even used a clone. Nor genjutsu, no speed feats, nothing.

Itachi beats him.

Madara.

And Madara stated himself that this power is not from that amp. And i am not applying Rinnegan, or mokuton to EMS Madara. I apply his other skills that he had when he was alive, including speed and EMS with Perfect Susanoo.

What we know is that clone was weaker than Edo Madara, who is weaker than alive Madara. Raikage couldnt dodge an attack of that clone and had been put in a genjutsu. That feat can be applyed to EMS Madara's speed.

And you still havent proved Kabuto enchanced Madara's speed.

ABC logic can be used here. Alive EMS Madara gave a lot of trouble to alive Hashirama at his full strength. Edo Hashirama, without his full strength, with clones around battlefield, was able to fight on par and immobilise Edo Madara, with Mokuton and Rinnegan.

Also, Edo Madara easily dodged Gaara's sand that can easily react to V2 Raikage's armor.

So yeah, EMS Madara was very, very fast. Faster than Itachi.

You may write about genjutsu again, but Itachi doesnt have feats to suggest he can put someone like Madara in a genjutsu. He put Kakashi in a genjutsu, but Kakashi is not an uchiha, that aye isnt even truly his and he has only 1 aye. So that feat doesnt prove Itachi will be able to put Madara in a genjutsu, who's ayes are 2 EMS. Plus, Sasuke saw through Itachi's genjutsu and Itachi was affected by genjutsu himself. And Genjutsu is a short-ranged ability. Madara will be too far from Itachi in his Perfect Susanoo.

Yata Mirror has no feats and Totsuka Blade cant seal even Madara's imperfect Susanoo, let alone Perfect one. Anyway, Itachi has MS, he wont keep up his Susanoo for a long time. And Madara has shown that he can bring PS out any time he wants.

Amaterasu is not an option here. Dont think i even need to explain why.

And chakra. Madara can tire him out easily.

I also can add here Madara's experience that is far superior to Itachi's. And his intelligence.

Madara is superior to Itachi, period.

@jedisupermaster: Madara stated rinnegan and mokuton werent from that amp. And madara CANT use clones, he never once did it while alive. He only used wood clones as an edo tensei, he cant do it alive.

And you have no proof he cant put madara in a genjutsu, NONE. Ivd proved sharingans can be put under genjutsu, the manga has never once stated EMS is better at resisting genjutsu. Ive already beat you on that point. I have proof sharingan can be affected, you have no proof saying otherwise. Youre saying the yata mirror and totsuka blade are featless? So is EMS madaras genjutsu resistance, youre the biggest hypocrite on this site. The statement from dan you quoted as accurate and hold as true, yet you deny 2 seperate statements and something from the databook about the totsuka blade and yata mirror. If you can stop the genjutsu thing without proof, guess what, the totsuka blade is ethereal, do you know what that means? It means INTANGIBLE, go look it up, that means it can automatically pierce anything, AS ALREADY STATED. If you deny madara can be affected by genjutsu, you cant deny that. Thats just pure ignorance.

And again madara has NEVER EVER EVER used perfect susanoo at the beginning of a fight, NOT ONE TIME. He doesnt fight like that. He will engage itachi close and will lose. Itachi doesnt even need to point or move a muscle to put someone under genjutsu, you dont even have to look in his eyes.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ2sP2BTrrM

Watch that, thats something called proof. You can not prove EMS is harder to put under genjutsu, you cant prove madara can use clones while alive, you cant prove he has once used perfect susanoo at the start of a fight, you cant prove his intelligence is higher, thats absolutely retarded. Itachi was a genius and thats been stated multiple times, madara has never once been stated to be a genius on itachi's level.

@jedisupermaster: Also here

http://mangadoom.co/Naruto/560/4/

Read the page, read it 10 times over. BEYOND HIS PRIME do you understand? BEYOND HIS PRIME, my proof right there unless youre just going to ignore statements from the manga. Which you probably will.

Yeah. And i also wanna see a proof that Kabuto improved his speed and overall visual prowess. Kabuto may just improve his mokuton abilities (although Madara has to thank himself for his "Gods power", not kabuto), for example. And the fact that weakened Hashirama with clones around battlefield and without Shinsuusenju was able to fight on par with Edo Madara and immobilised him makes me think so. Its called logic.

Its not about wherever he can create clones or not - its all about their power level. Every clone Edo Madara created was weaker than Edo Madara himself and much weaker than alive EMS Madara, but one of those clones forced Raikage to block Susanoo attack, not dodge it, and put him in a genjutsu. So thats a speed feat that can be applyed to alive EMS Madara.

Sasuke resisted his genjutsu. If Sasuke can, Madara also can. Sharingan was affected by a genjutsu, but that sharingan was in an ayesocket of non-uchiha. Also, Kakashi had only 1 MS. Thats not a proof Itachi can put Madara in a genjutsu.

But by your logic, you would have probably wrote that someone can put EMS Madara in a genjutsu if he put some 10 years old non-uchiha genin with only 1 sharingan. Because 10 years old genin had sharingan and it was affected, lol. As i wrote before, Itachi has no feats to suggest he can put Madara in a genjutsu.

Unlike Kakashi, whos sharingan is weaker than Madara's sharingan, Madara in an uchiha and has 2 ayes. He has genjutsu resistance by canon, because sharingan has the ability to see through a genjutsu. And all characters Itachi put in a genjutsu were featless in terms of a genjutsu.

Totsuka Blade has no feats of going through chakra based constructs, such as Susanoo. And i highly doubt Itachi will be able to use it anyway.

As already stated? Well, it was never stated anywhere that Totsuka Blade can pierce anything. Oh, and when it pierced Nagato and Orochimaru in anime, we can hear a sound like it pierced them. So it went tangible at the moment of piercing them. It wont work on Madara's Susanoo.

Madara can use it anytime he wants. It is logical. And there is nothing that prevents him from doing so. Watch this, Madara used it in his fight against Hashirama. And he didnt even need to create his imperfect susanoo before that.

And why he will engage Itachi in close combat? He can create Susanoo from the beginning. And if he does, Itachi wont beat him. We already discussed his genjutsu, not an option here. Plus, Madara also has a genjutsu in his arsenal. And genjutsu is a short-ranged attack. Madara can easily keep a distance with Itachi using his Perfect Susanoo.

And why his intelligence isnt higher? he achieved much more than Itachi, using his mind. And he used much more advanced mind tricks than Itachi. So eyah, Madara's intelligence is greater than Itachi's. He also dont need statements that he is a genious. His actions and planning speaks for himself.

Madara is superior to Itachi. Period.

@jedisupermaster: I just provided proof that debunks your entire argument. Go read it.

And a beyond prime edo tensei madaras feats do not apply in any way apply to alive EMS madara.

As for sasuke resisting tsukiyomi, itachi STATED himself only someone with the SAME, not similar, SAME blood can break it. Madara CAN NOT break tsukiyomi. He has NEVER shown genjutsu resistance EVER. Sharingan Users CAN be effected bt genjutsu. Tsukiyomi cast by itachi is unbreakable by anyone other then sasuke. Want me to find the page and paste it for you? Ive already disproved you on the edo tensei prime part. There goes the majority of your arguement.

http://mangadoom.co/Naruto/142/15/

There goes the rest of your arguement. Sharingan users can be affected by genjutsu. And only someone with the same blood, I repeat SAME BLOOD. NOT SIMILAR. SAME, Go google what that means, can break it. Madara DOES NOT have the same blood. Madara loses.

Read. Again, Itachi has no feats to suggest he can trap Madara in a genjutsu. He never was able to trap in a genjutsu someone like Madara, and Sasuke already saw through his genjutsu. Plus, all characters that were put in a genjutsu by Itachi are virtually featless in it. And, since genjutsu is a short-range ability, Madara can keep a distance with Itachi using his Perfect Susanoo.

I alrady explained why Edo Madara's feats can be applyed to EMS Madara. Its logical.

We can understand his words differently. Maybe he wanted to tell that Uchihas can resist it, since their blood is the same, although not completely. And how can he know that? Did he use Tsukuyomi on someone who is "the same blood" before his fight with Sasuke?

And than when Madara asked him if he knows about his prime Kabuto answered "no"... Its not a proof.

And why are you editing your posts? Isnt it more suitable to make a new one and not edit what you wrote already?

Even if Kabuto realy completed him "beyond his prime", we can understand his words differently. Maybe he completed him beyond his prime by improving his mokuton, not his speed and visual prowess?

@jedisupermaster: this is why I stopped debating. You are literally retarded. You ignore direct statements from the manga that have no wiggle room to take differently. Youre absolutely pathetic. None of edo madaras feats apply as he was BEYOND HIS PRIME. NOT A SINGLE ONE. Your "logic" as absolutely idiotic as it is, is DISPROVED BY THE MANGA. Madara has 0 feats to suggest he can resist tsukiyomi ouside of having the rinnegan. Ive proved it time and time again sharingans can be effected by genjutsu. You havent proved a single thing.

@jedisupermaster: Im editing posts to try and fix my grammar and spelling errors. Pretty simple. But keep ignoring DIRECT quotes from the manga. Youre a real credible debater.

@jedisupermaster Sloth has cast you down with his argument. Your ruin has been smote upon the mountainside

Man, i never insulted you in any way. And dont be so angry on me, we are debating about fictional characters, calm down dude. :D

But lets get back to the topic. Kabuto didnt know anything about Madara's "prime" and i assume he meant that Madara is beyond his prime because of mokuton he improved. If he realy was beyond his prime as you understand it, Edo Hashirama, who wasnt in his full strength at that moment, with many mokuton clones he created on battlefield and without Shinsuusenju, wouldnt be able to fight on par with him and immobilise him, right? Since, in terms of physical attributes, such as speed, they are at the same level.

Itachi could mean another Uchiha's by "the same blood". Since their blood is the same, although not completely. Also, Sasuke not only resisted his Tsukuyomi, but resisted his normal genjutsu. And, as i mentioned before, Itachi never put in a genjutsu someone like Madara. There is no proof Itachi's Genjutsu can work on Madara.

I also want to ask you - how long will you continue to ignore that genjutsu is a short-range ability? Madara can keep a distance by using his Perfect Susanoo.

And "disproved" by manga? Lol, do you want me to post that scan with Dan again?

So... uh....

Why do we think Tsukuyomi won't instawin?

It can be avoided and Itachi never put someone like Madara in it. "The same blood" line can be understanded differently. Also, its a short-range genjutsu. Madara can keep a distance with his Perfect Susanoo.

Madara wins. Itachi wankers, like sloth, need to stop. It's getting annoying.

Thats funny. :D

But... why would he? Madara doesn't even know about Tsukuyomi and loves going in for some cqb.

@mije_101: No he hasn't. Sloth hasn't won any argument about Madara and Itachi.

@thevivas: Already disproved you once. Ive talked nothing but facts, ive posted the links to back up what I say. Im not wanking itachi in anyway. If I was wanked id say he beats everyone. I already stated who he loses to in the other thread. But he does beat EMS madara and nothing you can post disproves that.

Also he loves to use his Susanoo as it was shown in his confrontations with Hashirama. Plus, Totsuka Blade can be avoided and Madara is fast enough to do that.

@boringperson: Thats what ive already proven. Tsukiyomi works on sharingans, it can only be broken by sasuke. Madara has never once used perfect susanoo at the start of a fight. Morals on, itachi wins every single time against EMS madara. Bloodlusted, madara wins. Its pretty simple. People like thevivas and jedisuper are just fanboys who can provide 0 evidence to back up anything they say

@boringperson: Did you really just claim that the guy that was planning to put(oh wait he did) the entire world into Infinite Tsukuyomi, something Itachi could never dream of doing. Doesn't know what Tsukuyomi is? Jesus you Itachi fanboys are just getting ridiculous. You take a low high tier character with mid tier feats against mid tier opponents and elevate him to god status. I swear none of you fanboys look at any Itachi feats in context.

The worst part about Itachi fanboys is that their very logic on hyperbolic statements can be used for a vast amount of characters in this manga. They ignore all those other hyperbolic statements and only take the ones that apply to Itachi. Seriously the guy was facing mid tier opponents or people who had not gotten their power creeps yet. You might as well call the school yard bully, the strongest person in the world while you're at it.

Where is the line morals are on? And again, where is a proof it can be broken only by Sasuke? I countered your arguements already.

And what makes you think Madara, in morals, wont use his Susanoo from the start against someone like Itachi?

Well, seeing as of ALL of the Sharingan users that EXIST only ONE we know of has Tsukuyomi in the form that Itachi has it...

Yeah. Just because they have the same name doesn't mean jack.

Unless Madara has genjutsu resistance feats I'm not aware of, or fights completely out of character...

Itachi should win.

There's no fanboyism in my posts... just your ridiculously overblown reaction to perceived fanboyism...

Oh by the way - didnt Madara cast similar genjutsu on Obito to show his plans to him when he was old and had only 1 sharingan?

@jedisupermaster: It never said morals off either. And as I said, morals on itachi wins, morals off he likely loses. And ive proved it can only be broken by sasuke. It said SAME BLOOD. Not only the uchiha clan can break it, only his SAME BLOOD. your uncle doesnt have the same blood as you, nor does madara have he same blood as itachi. Youre just ignoring that fact.

And if kabuto said he amped his wood style he wouldve said that. Instead he said I brought you back so youre better then your prime. Pretty simple words, not my fault you cant read/understand plain english. Its not a cryptic text.

@boringperson: No dude. It is fanboyism. You want him to show resistance to something only one person in the manga has shown. He is the ultimate Uchiha. He shouldn't have to show resistance to something someone below him has. This is where logic comes in, it's the thing that goes out the window with fanboying. If you honestly believe Itachi's Tsukuyomi is putting Madara down or that Madara isn't going to be the victor in that mental battle. Then you're reading a very different manga. One where Itachi wasn't a massive failure at all of his goals and wasn't a pawn for Madara's.

Heck maybe your fanboying make you believe Itachi would beat Kaguya with Tsukuyomi as well. Where does it end with you guys? I mean if it worked on PTS Kakashi and was broken by a weaker version of Sasuke, it must be a game ending move. Seriously you guys are just below the batboys when it comes to being ridiculous.

@itzxsloth345:

Itachi doesn't mean only Sasuke can defeat him. This is only one translation of the manga. The one I have states that "Only someone with a kenkei genkai and a Sharingan can defeat me." He means another Uchiha with the Sharingan can defeat Tsukoyomi. Last time I checked, Madara was an Uchiha with a Sharingan, and a stronger one at that. Kakashi only said Sasuke because he's the only other Uchiha in the world besides Obito, who Kakashi thought was dead. Before you said no genjutsu defense means you're defenseless and would lose every time against Tsukoyomi, yet Sasuke broke through without any Genjutsu resistance feats at all. So now Sasuke > Madara? You say I don't provide evidence, yet where's Itachi's feat of putting someone with EMS in Tsukoyomi?

Oh, implied evidence.

The makings of a wonderful argument.

Naruto isn't Bleach where higher levels of reiatsu let you rewrite the rules. Either he has the feats or he doesn't. Either he fights the way he usually does or he doesn't. Either you follow the rules stickied or you get ignored.

Even Madara dodges shuriken.

@thevivas: Itachi fanboys think him picking on PTS(or is it BTS?) and mid tier opponents while "looking badass" is a feat. He didn't defeat a single strong EOS opponent. In his last 2 fights he had assistance and in his fight against Nagato he outright states he needs help or they are dead. I think these fanboys share Itachi's failing vision.

@thevivas: Madara does not have the same blood. No one has the same blood as itachi besides sasuke. The fact you just said that shows how ignorant you are. If it was the way you said, he wouldve said only an uchiha can break tsukiyomi. Your logic, as I proved on the who can beat itachi thread is retarded. Keep fanboying an essentially featless, and inferior character.

@boringperson: So basically you're telling me that Orosuke has better genjutsu and genjutsu defense than Madara. The same Madara that put Raikage in a genjutsu. The same Raikage that Sasuke couldn't put in a genjutsu and was fast enough to dodge Amaterasu. I'm just glad to know exactly where you stand. Oh wait you're not a fanboy.

You havent proved it can be broken only by Sasuke. That line was hiperbole. It can be understanded in different ways. Uchiha clan members have "the same blood", although not completely the same, you know. They are relatives. And when did Itachi used it against "the same blood"? How does he know that only "the same blood" can break it? Plus, Madara has knowledge on Tsukuyomi. And he can keep a distance with Itachi using his Perfect Susanoo.

There is no way Itachi will beat Madara with a genjutsu.

Maybe he wanted to tell it shortly. So he used that line. Its not my fault you cant prove your statements to be true.

Madara is above Itachi, plain and simple.

@jedisupermaster: Yes I have. If you could understand english youd know that. They dont have near the same blood flowing through their veins. It can be "understanded" in one way. Just because english obviously isnt your first language and you cant grasp plain english doesnt mean thats hyperbole.

And no, madara cast genjutsu on someone who was willing to take it and it wasnt a COMBAT FEAT. Do you understand that? Thats like saying travel speed = combat speed. Its retarded. Ive backed up everything ive said with statements from the manga. You have nothing to disprove them but your own opinion. Kabuto says he brought madara back beyond his prime. "Lol means his mokutons better" wood style was never once said there, how you get that is beyond anyone here. Youre just twisting quotes far out of what they are and mean for your own agenda.

@nomar: None of madaras edo feats apply here. Already proved he was better in edo tensei then he was alive. If you havent read the posts here to see it thats your fault for being uninformed.

Madara put Raikage into genjutsu after he was caught by Susanoo... Super Amped Edo Madara wasn't able to catch him in genjutsu with his own pure combat speed... so the false equivocation can end there.

Well, does Orosuke have better feats of resistance against genjutsu or does Madara?

Honestly, all I care about are feats. That's how battles work on the Vine. Don't like it? Don't participate in the battle forums.