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#1 Posted by Deranged Midget (17987 posts) - - Show Bio

Both fighters are at their best.

Morals off.

First to K.O. or death.

No prep, random encounter.

Fighters begin 100 metres of each other.

Fight takes place on the Presidium level of the Citadel:

Please give explanation to who wins. Don't just state the name or your comment remains moot.

#2 Posted by steelhound56 (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace.

Revan never really impressed me.

The best feat he has is using Force Deflection to annihilate a Sith Council member by turning her own lightning back on her.

That, and he was able to fight the Sith Emperor briefly, while resisting the Emperor's attempts to dominate his mind.

#3 Posted by Deranged Midget (17987 posts) - - Show Bio

@steelhound56 said:

Mace.

Revan never really impressed me.

The best feat he has is using Force Deflection to annihilate a Sith Council member by turning her own lightning back on her.

That, and he was able to fight the Sith Emperor briefly, while resisting the Emperor's attempts to dominate his mind.

True, but the Emperor (Tenebrae) was extremely powerful and yet Revan was able to resist a few attacks before underestimating his power yet again. If Tenebrae wasn't so featless, I'd say he was near the level of Palpatine himself.

I would assume Windu is the superior duelist but I want to give Revan the advantage as the more powerful force user.

#4 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@steelhound56 said:

Mace.

Revan never really impressed me.

The best feat he has is using Force Deflection to annihilate a Sith Council member by turning her own lightning back on her.

That, and he was able to fight the Sith Emperor briefly, while resisting the Emperor's attempts to dominate his mind.

#5 Posted by JamesKM716 (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd give this to Mace Windu. Mostly because I remember reading a source that the Rise of the Empire era Jedi were the strongest ever (don't remember the source :/) Beyond that Mace managed to actually fight Sidious. (I personally think that Sidious was throwing the fight, but still) Continuing Mace only Dooku, Qui-Gon and Yoda were able to defeat Mace. Those three (well not really Qui-Gon) were all incredibly gifted Duelists. This leads me to the belief that in a Lightsaber duel, Mace wins.

In the Force, it is possible that Revan could win. That fight is much much closer, but i think that Mace's own Force abilities would allow him to survive. And since this isn't seperated to beign force only or lightsaber only, i think that Mace would be able to use his own Force abilities in order to get close enough to reasonably fight with Revan. And i think if Mace got Revan into a Lightsaber fight then it would only be a matter of time until Mace won.

Therefore, and in conclusion, i think that Mace would take this. (Good thread though!)

#6 Posted by JediXMan (31573 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably Mace, despite my desire for Revan to win.

Moderator
#7 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1657 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace stomps.

#8 Posted by OneVision_OnePurpose (289 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

Probably Mace, despite my desire for Revan to win.

Yeah. :/

#9 Posted by Baldy (4914 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace. He went toe to toe with Sidious and did better than I think Revan would do.

#10 Posted by Deranged Midget (17987 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh wow, this is old.

To be blunt, Mace is the far superior swordsman and Revan lacks the feats to compare him to Mace, although Revan is arguably the superior force user.

@Baldy said:

Mace. He went toe to toe with Sidious and did better than I think Revan would do.

Hmm. Toe to toe might be an exaggeration but yes, he held his own for some time despite pushing himself beyond his limits.

#11 Posted by ShootingNova (19862 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace stomps in a saber fight, while Revan has superior Force feats.

@Baldy said:

Mace. He went toe to toe with Sidious and did better than I think Revan would do.

Not really.

Mace required a gargantuan amp of both skill and speed to match Palpatine:

Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic.
Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."
For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.
He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.
And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.
Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.
He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.
They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him—
That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered—
All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets—
Has all been for nothing.
Because it was all done to save the Republic.
Which was already gone.
Which had already fallen.
The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.

.......................

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith (the ...... is other parts of the book that aren't necessary)

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

And otherwise would have lacked the ability to react to Palpatine:

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary (credit to Silver2467 for that)

And Mace can do nothing to truly defend himself against Palpatine's lightning:

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

That said, Revan wouldn't have been able to react to Palpatine either.

#12 Posted by Baldy (4914 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: I wasn't saying that Mace was Palpatine's equal, just that they fought and that he did better than Revan would have. This remains true.

#13 Posted by ShootingNova (19862 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baldy: There would have never been a fight if Mace wasn't amped. He would have simply been one-shotted under normal circumstances, and Revan would have been no better also. However, Mace will not typically fare any better against Palpatine than Revan can, since both would simply get blitzed prior to them being capable of reacting.

#14 Posted by Baldy (4914 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Baldy: There would have never been a fight if Mace wasn't amped. He would have simply been one-shotted under normal circumstances, and Revan would have been no better also. However, Mace will not typically fare any better against Palpatine than Revan can, since both would simply get blitzed prior to them being capable of reacting.

I don't understand what you mean by 'amped'. As far as I know he was able to fight Palpatine for a short time because he was using the light saber form called 'Vaapad' but that isn't an amp from an outside force is it? I was under the impression that was a skill that Mace had mastered.

I could be just completely misunderstanding it though, never been a huge fan of Pre-Empire Star Wars.

#15 Posted by daak1212 (7867 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace wins this quite easily. Granted Revan does have some good feats such as throwing asteroids and resisting the Sith Emperor for 300 years

#16 Posted by guttridgeb (4833 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace is a superior swordsman but Revan is a superior force-user. If Revan can use that to his advantage by avoiding close combat and taking advantage of the large distance between them he would win. However, the chances of Revan being able to pull this off are slimmer than I would like so I would say that most of the time, Mace would win.

#17 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jedisupermaster said:

Mace stomps.

Right, and Leia is the deadliest sith lord in the galaxy.

@guttridgeb said:

Mace is a superior swordsman but Revan is a superior force-user. If Revan can use that to his advantage by avoiding close combat and taking advantage of the large distance between them he would win. However, the chances of Revan being able to pull this off are slimmer than I would like so I would say that most of the time, Mace would win.

QFT, Mace's skills with a lightsaber were said to rival those of Yoda.

But Revan is definitely the stronger force combatant, and I feel that would give him the win here. Having a mastery over both the light and the dark side is more impressive to me than a slight edge in close-combat skills.

#18 Posted by guttridgeb (4833 posts) - - Show Bio

@girugamesh said:

But Revan is definitely the stronger force combatant, and I feel that would give him the win here. Having a mastery over both the light and the dark side is more impressive to me than a slight edge in close-combat skills.

In terms of light and dark, both jedi balance themselves between the two sides. There force alignment doesn't make much difference here.

#19 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

@guttridgeb said:

@girugamesh said:

But Revan is definitely the stronger force combatant, and I feel that would give him the win here. Having a mastery over both the light and the dark side is more impressive to me than a slight edge in close-combat skills.

In terms of light and dark, both jedi balance themselves between the two sides. There force alignment doesn't make much difference here.

Since when did jedi learn the powers of the dark side? And even if this were the case, Revan had mastered both sides; he was capable of using most powers of the light and the dark, making him far more versatile and knowledgeable than Windu in the force. If Windu manages to get in close, he'll probably win, but I would give it to Revan 7/10.

#20 Posted by JediXMan (31573 posts) - - Show Bio

@girugamesh said:

@guttridgeb said:

Mace is a superior swordsman but Revan is a superior force-user. If Revan can use that to his advantage by avoiding close combat and taking advantage of the large distance between them he would win. However, the chances of Revan being able to pull this off are slimmer than I would like so I would say that most of the time, Mace would win.

QFT, Mace's skills with a lightsaber were said to rival those of Yoda.

Said to be; doesn't make it true. Many people assume Yoda and Mace were around the same level - they weren't. Yoda was vastly superior.

Still, it doesn't matter much.

Mace > Revan in lightsaber combat.

Revan > Mace in Force abilities.

Moderator
#21 Posted by guttridgeb (4833 posts) - - Show Bio

@girugamesh said:

@guttridgeb said:

@girugamesh said:

But Revan is definitely the stronger force combatant, and I feel that would give him the win here. Having a mastery over both the light and the dark side is more impressive to me than a slight edge in close-combat skills.

In terms of light and dark, both jedi balance themselves between the two sides. There force alignment doesn't make much difference here.

Since when did jedi learn the powers of the dark side? And even if this were the case, Revan had mastered both sides; he was capable of using most powers of the light and the dark, making him far more versatile and knowledgeable than Windu in the force. If Windu manages to get in close, he'll probably win, but I would give it to Revan 7/10.

Mace didn't use dark side force powers but he did use Vapaad. A form that channeled Mace's dark energy and with morals off and dark side presumably permitted this form would have been stronger. I agree that Revan is superior using the force but not with lightsabers and I don't think Revan is strong enough to keep a lightsaber fight from occurring.

#22 Posted by JamesKM716 (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like people are dismissing Mace's force abilities and increasing Revans. Can we get a bit of Revan's feats?

My point about dismissing Mace's Force ability really stems from his battle on Dantooine. Remember? in the small Clone Wars shorts? Mace took down an army of droids, during which a huge portion of the time he didn't have a lightsaber. My points is this, even IF Revan is the superior Force user, is he really that much of a Force user that he could defeat Mace? Mace was incredibly powerful, and i suspect that even if Revan is stronger, he's not strong enough to defeat Mace, or keep him away.

Revan loses IMO

7/10 for Mace

#23 Posted by Kyle_Dornez (261 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716 said:

I feel like people are dismissing Mace's force abilities and increasing Revans. Can we get a bit of Revan's feats?

My point about dismissing Mace's Force ability really stems from his battle on Dantooine. Remember? in the small Clone Wars shorts? Mace took down an army of droids, during which a huge portion of the time he didn't have a lightsaber. My points is this, even IF Revan is the superior Force user, is he really that much of a Force user that he could defeat Mace? Mace was incredibly powerful, and i suspect that even if Revan is stronger, he's not strong enough to defeat Mace, or keep him away.

Revan loses IMO

7/10 for Mace

Ow, yes, I was just about to mention them. Mace wasn't Head of the Counsil for nothing, after all. Indeed, Revan here is in incredible bad position, both in-universe and in meta. After all, how you compete against Samuel L Jackson, when you're just a faceless game construct?

#24 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

@guttridgeb said:

@girugamesh said:

@guttridgeb said:

@girugamesh said:

But Revan is definitely the stronger force combatant, and I feel that would give him the win here. Having a mastery over both the light and the dark side is more impressive to me than a slight edge in close-combat skills.

In terms of light and dark, both jedi balance themselves between the two sides. There force alignment doesn't make much difference here.

Since when did jedi learn the powers of the dark side? And even if this were the case, Revan had mastered both sides; he was capable of using most powers of the light and the dark, making him far more versatile and knowledgeable than Windu in the force. If Windu manages to get in close, he'll probably win, but I would give it to Revan 7/10.

Mace didn't use dark side force powers but he did use Vapaad. A form that channeled Mace's dark energy and with morals off and dark side presumably permitted this form would have been stronger. I agree that Revan is superior using the force but not with lightsabers and I don't think Revan is strong enough to keep a lightsaber fight from occurring.

I see what you mean, as in using both emotionally, not in terms of actual abilities.

And we must agree to disagree on that later part. What I think also gives Revan the edge here is his experience; he's seen far more combat in his life than Mace.

@JamesKM716 said:

I feel like people are dismissing Mace's force abilities and increasing Revans. Can we get a bit of Revan's feats?

My point about dismissing Mace's Force ability really stems from his battle on Dantooine. Remember? in the small Clone Wars shorts? Mace took down an army of droids, during which a huge portion of the time he didn't have a lightsaber. My points is this, even IF Revan is the superior Force user, is he really that much of a Force user that he could defeat Mace? Mace was incredibly powerful, and i suspect that even if Revan is stronger, he's not strong enough to defeat Mace, or keep him away.

Revan loses IMO

7/10 for Mace

IMO, yes.

Revan can use the vast majority of all force powers, both light and dark. At an earlier point in his life he was able to crush an empowered Darth Malak, who at the time had been hailed one of the strongest jedi of the age before he turned to the dark. Revan was able to reflect the lightning of a strong sith user, and then resist the powers of Lord Vitiate (one of the most OP characters in the SW universe, whose feats I shall list below) and actually hold his own against him for a bit. This and more experience I think would give Revan the win.

Lord Vitiate:

-had control over dark side powers at the age of 6

-defeated a sith lord at 13

-became one the most feared sith in the galaxy over the next few years

-absorbed the power of thousands of sith lords in the most complex force ritual ever, becoming even stronger and gaining immortality.

For anyone to stand against him without being instantly crushed is a pretty big feat in itself.

#25 Posted by JamesKM716 (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@girugamesh: But is Revan faster? what speed levels does he hold? Because, Mace should be able to speed blitz Revan. Mace (using EVERYTHING) he had managed to hold his own against the most powerful Sith lord in history. That's a better feat than surviving an encounter with a Sith Lord who doesn't have good combat feats.

Off-Topic:

having Dark Side powers at age 6 isn't that big of a deal. He broke a guys neck, that's not especially difficult.

He was actually ten.

Being feared doesn't necesarilly mean anythign at all. People fear Batman, but Batman isn't the strongest hero ever. (Even if he is dang cool)

And to do that he had to trick dozens of powerful Sith Lords.

But nothing of Vitiate's list of feats are combat feats in the slightest. With the possible exception of killing a non-force sensitive. If you can call that a combat feat.

being feared isn't a combat feat. absorbing power by tricking people isn't a combat feat. and you misrepresent Vitiate defeating Dramath. Dramath was investigating his son. Vitiate's attack would have been one of surprise for Dramath.

#26 Posted by guttridgeb (4833 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716:

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies. Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it.

Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extend at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide. He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power.

"I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And before me you are nothing."

Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a charred pile of ash.

#27 Posted by JamesKM716 (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

I've read that one. He redirected lightning from a Sith who was defeating a average Jedi Knight and average Sith Warrior. That's all you've got?

#28 Edited by Silver2467 (16387 posts) - - Show Bio
@Baldy said: 

I don't understand what you mean by 'amped'. As far as I know he was able to fight Palpatine for a short time because he was using the light saber form called 'Vaapad' but that isn't an amp from an outside force is it? I was under the impression that was a skill that Mace had mastered.

I could be just completely misunderstanding it though, never been a huge fan of Pre-Empire Star Wars.

Mace used Vaapad, but his abilities were amped beyond their standard level for that one duel. His duel against Sidious is not a usable combat feat because Windu's capabilities were aggrandized by outside factors for the purposes of that one fight, factors such as the quantity of innate darkness within Mace at the time and Anakin's fear pervading the chamber. His powers and his martial prowess were enhanced by these so that he could match Sidious. Without those, he was incapable of even perceiving the movement of Palpatine's blade.
 
@JamesKM716  said: 

My point about dismissing Mace's Force ability really stems from his battle on Dantooine. Remember? in the small Clone Wars shorts? Mace took down an army of droids, during which a huge portion of the time he didn't have a lightsaber.

Inconsistent showing. Mace also lost to an army of unarmed beings once and required Yoda's help to hurl back an army of droids at the Battle of Coruscant. He also failed to telekinetically lift transports, and in general, his TK has been shown at levels far below that.
 
@girugamesh said: 

But Revan is definitely the stronger force combatant, and I feel that would give him the win here. Having a mastery over both the light and the dark side is more impressive to me than a slight edge in close-combat skills.

@girugamesh said: 

Since when did jedi learn the powers of the dark side? And even if this were the case, Revan had mastered both sides; he was capable of using most powers of the light and the dark, making him far more versatile and knowledgeable than Windu in the force. If Windu manages to get in close, he'll probably win, but I would give it to Revan 7/10.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Revan never masted "most powers of the light and dark," and he has few feats with any of them in the first place. Furthermore, Mace's combative superiority is not slight at all. Revan struggled with Mandalore, a completely non-Force sensitive character, while Mace has fought  evenly with Dooku, fought evenly with Grievous, beaten Ventress, held his own against Yoda, and fought evenly with Saesee Tiin, among others. What has Revan done? Beaten a skillfully featless Malak? So what? Yoda was the best duelist the Jedi Order ever produced, and Dooku was just behind him. Yet Mace was a contender with them. Revan has accomplished literally nothing that even remotely approaches Mace's fighting abilities, and Revan's superiority with the Force is negligible. The only way you can argue for a significant disparity in Force adeptness is if you blindly follow non-canon video game mechanics or accept the highly poetic descriptions of (mostly featless or at least unimpressive) characters who praised Revan's powers. Set the fanwanking aside, and he has achieved very little to warrant the hype he receives.
 
Mace would win just about every time.
#29 Posted by ghostrider fan1 (772 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: i heard that mace was better with a saber, while yoda was better with the force, having created his own "style" of light saber fighting

#30 Posted by Silver2467 (16387 posts) - - Show Bio

To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.

--Taken from Insider #62 

With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.

--Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2yIAxeBHA&feature=player_embedded 

"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."


http://web.archive.org/web/20051125042817/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html  

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."


Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter 

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook 

No, Mace is not a better duelist than Yoda.
#31 Posted by coolguyr99 (3019 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: If all force powers were taken away, who would be the best duellist in the Star Wars universe?

#32 Posted by ShootingNova (19862 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baldy said:

I don't understand what you mean by 'amped'. As far as I know he was able to fight Palpatine for a short time because he was using the light saber form called 'Vaapad' but that isn't an amp from an outside force is it? I was under the impression that was a skill that Mace had mastered.

I could be just completely misunderstanding it though, never been a huge fan of Pre-Empire Star Wars.

Read the quotes again. Vaapad in itself is not an amp, the excess darkness in Mace beforehand (which was then channeled by Vaapad) is what allowed Mace to even react to Palpatine in the first place.

@girugamesh said:

Since when did jedi learn the powers of the dark side? And even if this were the case, Revan had mastered both sides; he was capable of using most powers of the light and the dark, making him far more versatile and knowledgeable than Windu in the force. If Windu manages to get in close, he'll probably win, but I would give it to Revan 7/10.

Revan never mastered both sides of the Force. He simply walked both sides of the Force, had understanding of both perspectives, but to put him as a master of both sides of the Force is incorrect. He hasn't mastered remotely most of those powers, he can just use Light and Dark powers in conjunction. This quote may have been the source of the speculation of Revan's mastery of both sides of the Force:

Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.

-- Taken from The Old Republic: Revan

@girugamesh said:

Mace's skills with a lightsaber were said to rival those of Yoda.

Yes, but that was a hyperbole term as much as Revan being the Heart of the Force.

Mace himself thought he was but a padawan when compared to Yoda.

#33 Posted by ShootingNova (19862 posts) - - Show Bio

@girugamesh said:

-had control over dark side powers at the age of 6

Yes, and? Palpatine did have power at a young age also.

-defeated a sith lord at 13

A featless Sith Lord with no mentions of power relating to him.

Palpatine was so powerful that Plagueis (one of the most powerful beings in SW, and certainly one of the most powerful Sith lords) could not scan Palpatine even when he had no official training in the Force:

Plagueis made a soothing gesture and explained in great detail what had taken place. Concluding, he said, "He threatened, too, to place you out of reach."
All the while Plagueis spoke, Palpatine was storming through circles on the narrow path, shaking his head in anger and balling his fists. "He can't do this!" he snarled. He hasn't the right! I won't allow it!"
Palpatine's fury buffeted Plagueis. Blossoms growing along the sides of the pathway folded in on themselves, and their pollinators began to buzz in agitation. FourDee reacted, as well, wobbling on its feet, as if in the grip of a powerful electromagnet. Had this human truly been born of flesh-and-blood parents? Plagueis asked himself. When, in fact, he seemed sprung from nature itself. Was the Force so strong in him that it had concealed itself?

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

-became one the most feared sith in the galaxy over the next few years

No, he wasn't. He was just a scholar on Marka Ragnos' Sith Council, and he didn't achieve such prestige until afterwards.

-absorbed the power of thousands of sith lords in the most complex force ritual ever, becoming even stronger and gaining immortality.

By manipulating 200 other Sith lords into thinking they were unlocking massive Dark Side power, and then using a ritual for days/weeks before being able to do so. Not applicable in a fight and Vitiate can't do it under his own power.

For anyone to stand against him without being instantly crushed is a pretty big feat in itself.

Not exactly.

Lord Vitiate (one of the most OP characters in the SW universe,

I can name probably ten beings who can defeat Vitiate. Even more, in fact.

#34 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1657 posts) - - Show Bio

@girugamesh said:

@Jedisupermaster said:

Mace stomps.

Right, and Leia is the deadliest sith lord in the galaxy.

@guttridgeb said:

Mace is a superior swordsman but Revan is a superior force-user. If Revan can use that to his advantage by avoiding close combat and taking advantage of the large distance between them he would win. However, the chances of Revan being able to pull this off are slimmer than I would like so I would say that most of the time, Mace would win.

QFT, Mace's skills with a lightsaber were said to rival those of Yoda.

But Revan is definitely the stronger force combatant, and I feel that would give him the win here. Having a mastery over both the light and the dark side is more impressive to me than a slight edge in close-combat skills.

Oh yeah? Lets imagine a fight between those two. What exactly Revan can do by his force abilities to stop Mace from choping his head off?

#35 Posted by Baldy (4914 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@Baldy said:

I don't understand what you mean by 'amped'. As far as I know he was able to fight Palpatine for a short time because he was using the light saber form called 'Vaapad' but that isn't an amp from an outside force is it? I was under the impression that was a skill that Mace had mastered.

I could be just completely misunderstanding it though, never been a huge fan of Pre-Empire Star Wars.

Mace used Vaapad, but his abilities were amped beyond their standard level for that one duel. His duel against Sidious is not a usable combat feat because Windu's capabilities were aggrandized by outside factors for the purposes of that one fight, factors such as the quantity of innate darkness within Mace at the time and Anakin's fear pervading the chamber. His powers and his martial prowess were enhanced by these so that he could match Sidious. Without those, he was incapable of even perceiving the movement of Palpatine's blade.

Just so that I've got this clear, are you saying that Mace was amped because he was effectively tapping into the darkside?

#36 Posted by ckal (1097 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been reading through this and i Just find it pretty interesting. I'm not very familiar with most of this but it's pretty cool stuff. I realize this is off topic, but it seems that if Mace Windu was a Sith instead of a Jedi, he could have been far more powerful than he was as a Jedi? Would that be sound logic or is there more to it than that?

#37 Posted by Deranged Midget (17987 posts) - - Show Bio

@ckal: Mace utilized Vaapad which in turn used emotions in battle to fuel his strength which is similar to what the Sith do. Jedi are taught to negate all forms of emotion as to not interfere with the Force and their training. Although, Mace never strayed over to the Dark side as some of the apprentices he trained in the form of Vaapad and has since vowed to never teach it.

#38 Posted by guttridgeb (4833 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716: Both Meetra and Scourge were above average. If you have read the book you should know that Scourge had the rare ability of using the emotions of his enemies against them.

And Meetra succeeded in defeating Sith that many other Jedi failed in doing. As you should also know, Revan resisted the Sith Emperor who absorbed all living things from an entire planet.

#39 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1657 posts) - - Show Bio

@guttridgeb said:

@JamesKM716: Both Meetra and Scourge were above average. If you have read the book you should know that Scourge had the rare ability of using the emotions of his enemies against them.

And Meetra succeeded in defeating Sith that many other Jedi failed in doing. As you should also know, Revan resisted the Sith Emperor who absorbed all living things from an entire planet.

And Mace still stomps Revan.

#40 Posted by guttridgeb (4833 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jedisupermaster: I agree that Mace would probably win but it is in no way a stomp. Can you at least give some feats to show why you think its a stomp.

#41 Posted by JamesKM716 (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@guttridgeb said:

@JamesKM716: Both Meetra and Scourge were above average. If you have read the book you should know that Scourge had the rare ability of using the emotions of his enemies against them.

And Meetra succeeded in defeating Sith that many other Jedi failed in doing. As you should also know, Revan resisted the Sith Emperor who absorbed all living things from an entire planet.

Exactly how were they above average? using your opponents emotions against them is NOT a rare ability. Several in Star Wars lore have used that ability from what i remember.

Are you referring to Nihilius, Traya and Sion? Nihilius has no combat feats at all. his strongest ability, the one that killed most of the Jedi? it didn't work on the Exile because of her unique situation. Traya also has no combat feats except to losing to Nihilius and Sion. Sion's feat was defeating Lonna Vash, who has no feats at all. The Exile's feats aren't that good, if at all. In fact she lost to Nyriss, a featless Sith lord. What feats have you that Scourge is powerful?

A). The Sith Emperor did that by tricking 200 Sith Lords into joining together in order to accomplish what you said. B). Resisting someone is just a sign of strong will, which won't help Revan in a fight.

#42 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1657 posts) - - Show Bio

@guttridgeb said:

@Jedisupermaster: I agree that Mace would probably win but it is in no way a stomp. Can you at least give some feats to show why you think its a stomp.

First, Force wont help Revan in a duel. Lightning can be blocked and Revans lightning wont be as powerful as Palpatines. Telekinesis also wont help him. Second, Mace has far better feats in terms of skills with a lightsaber. His match with Dooku, fight with Sora Bulq and so on, and so on. Mace is far superior lightsabersman. =) Mace stomps.

#43 Edited by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@Baldy said:

I don't understand what you mean by 'amped'. As far as I know he was able to fight Palpatine for a short time because he was using the light saber form called 'Vaapad' but that isn't an amp from an outside force is it? I was under the impression that was a skill that Mace had mastered.

I could be just completely misunderstanding it though, never been a huge fan of Pre-Empire Star Wars.

Mace used Vaapad, but his abilities were amped beyond their standard level for that one duel. His duel against Sidious is not a usable combat feat because Windu's capabilities were aggrandized by outside factors for the purposes of that one fight, factors such as the quantity of innate darkness within Mace at the time and Anakin's fear pervading the chamber. His powers and his martial prowess were enhanced by these so that he could match Sidious. Without those, he was incapable of even perceiving the movement of Palpatine's blade.

@JamesKM716 said:

My point about dismissing Mace's Force ability really stems from his battle on Dantooine. Remember? in the small Clone Wars shorts? Mace took down an army of droids, during which a huge portion of the time he didn't have a lightsaber.

Inconsistent showing. Mace also lost to an army of unarmed beings once and required Yoda's help to hurl back an army of droids at the Battle of Coruscant. He also failed to telekinetically lift transports, and in general, his TK has been shown at levels far below that.

@girugamesh said:

But Revan is definitely the stronger force combatant, and I feel that would give him the win here. Having a mastery over both the light and the dark side is more impressive to me than a slight edge in close-combat skills.

@girugamesh said:

Since when did jedi learn the powers of the dark side? And even if this were the case, Revan had mastered both sides; he was capable of using most powers of the light and the dark, making him far more versatile and knowledgeable than Windu in the force. If Windu manages to get in close, he'll probably win, but I would give it to Revan 7/10.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Revan never masted "most powers of the light and dark," and he has few feats with any of them in the first place. Furthermore, Mace's combative superiority is not slight at all. Revan struggled with Mandalore, a completely non-Force sensitive character, while Mace has fought evenly with Dooku, fought evenly with Grievous, beaten Ventress, held his own against Yoda, and fought evenly with Saesee Tiin, among others. What has Revan done? Beaten a skillfully featless Malak? So what? Yoda was the best duelist the Jedi Order ever produced, and Dooku was just behind him. Yet Mace was a contender with them. Revan has accomplished literally nothing that even remotely approaches Mace's fighting abilities, and Revan's superiority with the Force is negligible. The only way you can argue for a significant disparity in Force adeptness is if you blindly follow non-canon video game mechanics or accept the highly poetic descriptions of (mostly featless or at least unimpressive) characters who praised Revan's powers. Set the fanwanking aside, and he has achieved very little to warrant the hype he receives. Mace would win just about every time.

Revan has prowess in both the dark and the light, this is a fact. He was stated to be the greatest jedi of a time (light) and was the dark lord of the sith (dark), and you're trying to tell me he never had any mastery over them? He was able to find a perfect equilibrium between the two in his fight against Vitiate, releasing the force in "its purest form", demonstrating remarkable control.

"Negligible"? Bullshit. Please, by all means, show me Mace demonstrating a mastery of the force equal or close to Revan's. I have already accepted that Windu is the superior duelist, but I have always sided with those who are stronger force users over duelists, and on that basis I give it to Revan with high difficulty.

@ShootingNova said:

@girugamesh said:

-had control over dark side powers at the age of 6

Yes, and? Palpatine did have power at a young age also.

-defeated a sith lord at 13

A featless Sith Lord with no mentions of power relating to him.

Palpatine was so powerful that Plagueis (one of the most powerful beings in SW, and certainly one of the most powerful Sith lords) could not scan Palpatine even when he had no official training in the Force:

Plagueis made a soothing gesture and explained in great detail what had taken place. Concluding, he said, "He threatened, too, to place you out of reach."
All the while Plagueis spoke, Palpatine was storming through circles on the narrow path, shaking his head in anger and balling his fists. "He can't do this!" he snarled. He hasn't the right! I won't allow it!"
Palpatine's fury buffeted Plagueis. Blossoms growing along the sides of the pathway folded in on themselves, and their pollinators began to buzz in agitation. FourDee reacted, as well, wobbling on its feet, as if in the grip of a powerful electromagnet. Had this human truly been born of flesh-and-blood parents? Plagueis asked himself. When, in fact, he seemed sprung from nature itself. Was the Force so strong in him that it had concealed itself?

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

-became one the most feared sith in the galaxy over the next few years

No, he wasn't. He was just a scholar on Marka Ragnos' Sith Council, and he didn't achieve such prestige until afterwards.

-absorbed the power of thousands of sith lords in the most complex force ritual ever, becoming even stronger and gaining immortality.

By manipulating 200 other Sith lords into thinking they were unlocking massive Dark Side power, and then using a ritual for days/weeks before being able to do so. Not applicable in a fight and Vitiate can't do it under his own power.

For anyone to stand against him without being instantly crushed is a pretty big feat in itself.

Not exactly.

Lord Vitiate (one of the most OP characters in the SW universe,

I can name probably ten beings who can defeat Vitiate. Even more, in fact.

1. As young as 6? To actually have a decent control over them? I think not.

2. You people and your feat-wanking, he was a sith lord all the same. Not saying he was a sith lord of any note, but a sith lord is a sith lord. You would probably argue that a clone trooper is better than that sith lord on the basis of him being featless.

3. I know he tricked those sith lords, that wasn't the point I was making. The important part is that he absorbed the power of that many sith lords and became virtually immortal.

4. Go ahead, I would love to see you try.

I am not saying that Vitiate is as strong as Palpatine, but he was definitely one of the higher tier sith lords.

@JamesKM716 said:

@girugamesh: But is Revan faster? what speed levels does he hold? Because, Mace should be able to speed blitz Revan. Mace (using EVERYTHING) he had managed to hold his own against the most powerful Sith lord in history. That's a better feat than surviving an encounter with a Sith Lord who doesn't have good combat feats.

Off-Topic:

having Dark Side powers at age 6 isn't that big of a deal. He broke a guys neck, that's not especially difficult.

He was actually ten.

Being feared doesn't necesarilly mean anythign at all. People fear Batman, but Batman isn't the strongest hero ever. (Even if he is dang cool)

And to do that he had to trick dozens of powerful Sith Lords.

But nothing of Vitiate's list of feats are combat feats in the slightest. With the possible exception of killing a non-force sensitive. If you can call that a combat feat.

being feared isn't a combat feat. absorbing power by tricking people isn't a combat feat. and you misrepresent Vitiate defeating Dramath. Dramath was investigating his son. Vitiate's attack would have been one of surprise for Dramath.

Vitiate could snap the will of the vast majority of opponents; he could defeat them without lifting a finger. The only people who could resist it would be someone with a mastery of the force around Revan's or higher.

And Revan, despite being able to reflect the force lightning of a sith lord and having skill with both the light and the dark sides, was totally powerless against the power of Vitiate's lightning. Not to mention the fact that Vitiate could cause things to disintegrate with a thought, as he did with Revan's robot. You can cry over combat feats as much as you want, Vitiate was a beast.

@Jedisupermaster said:

@girugamesh said:

@Jedisupermaster said:

Mace stomps.

Right, and Leia is the deadliest sith lord in the galaxy.

@guttridgeb said:

Mace is a superior swordsman but Revan is a superior force-user. If Revan can use that to his advantage by avoiding close combat and taking advantage of the large distance between them he would win. However, the chances of Revan being able to pull this off are slimmer than I would like so I would say that most of the time, Mace would win.

QFT, Mace's skills with a lightsaber were said to rival those of Yoda.

But Revan is definitely the stronger force combatant, and I feel that would give him the win here. Having a mastery over both the light and the dark side is more impressive to me than a slight edge in close-combat skills.

Oh yeah? Lets imagine a fight between those two. What exactly Revan can do by his force abilities to stop Mace from choping his head off?

Well that's a close-minded approach. As seen in the fight between Bane and the jedi duelist master (2nd book), it doesn't matter how good you are with a lightsaber, if you can't defend against someone throwing you 50m away or choking you to death you're screwed.

#44 Posted by JamesKM716 (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@girugamesh: Vader, Tyrannus, Palpatine, Caedus, Plaugeis, Abeltoh, Luke, Jaina Solo, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda, Mace Windu, Kyp Durron could all beat Vitiate. and look, that's more than ten.

but arguing about Vitiate's abilities is completely off topic. Mace Windu takes this one because he's the far better duelist. He should be able to blitz Revan before revan does anything.

#45 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716 said:

@girugamesh: Vader, Tyrannus, Palpatine, Caedus, Plaugeis, Abeltoh, Luke, Jaina Solo, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda, Mace Windu, Kyp Durron could all beat Vitiate. and look, that's more than ten.

but arguing about Vitiate's abilities is completely off topic. Mace Windu takes this one because he's the far better duelist. He should be able to blitz Revan before revan does anything.

You give Windu too much credit for speed. As for your list, there are only a handful there that could hang with Vitiate. Obi Wan? Tyrannus? Really?

#46 Posted by JamesKM716 (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@girugamesh: Tyrannus was the second best duelist in the Jedi order. Better than everyone but Yoda (and later evidently Anakin).

Vitiate being able to crush their will is A). arguable. and B). not exactly useful in Battle. If Vitiate or Palpatine or any Sith lord is focusing on crushing someone's will, and their opponent manages to keep their will for just a little bit, then the Sith would lose. After all, theres a reason Palpatine didn't just crush the will of Luke or Yoda or Kit Fisto or Mace Windu or Saesee Tin (I know i spelled that one wrong) or Agen Kolar.

And perhaps you give too much credit to Revan's force abilities.

#47 Edited by Silver2467 (16387 posts) - - Show Bio
@girugamesh said: 

Revan has prowess in both the dark and the light, this is a fact. He was stated to be the greatest jedi of a time (light) and was the dark lord of the sith (dark), and you're trying to tell me he never had any mastery over them?

I appreciate the strawman argument, but it isn't helping your case. You claimed that Revan mastered "most" light and dark side powers. Prove it. I know for a fact you will be unable to, because you already dodged the point here. Revan never mastered "most" powers. You made that up. 
 

He was able to find a perfect equilibrium between the two in his fight against Vitiate, releasing the force in "its purest form", demonstrating remarkable control.

And I still laugh at Karpyshyns abysmal understanding of the Force, but this is another topic.

"Negligible"? Bullshit. Please, by all means, show me Mace demonstrating a mastery of the force equal or close to Revan's.

Show me a feat of power from Revan that so obviously supersedes Mace's. Mace has casually lifted and moved multiple trees simultaneously; collapsed part of an unstable cliff face; hurled a droid three kilometers; levitated himself and Nick Rostu down from a couple hundred meter fall; etc. He has adhered himself to the top of a mag-lev train against the force of the winds pushing at him from the train's three hundred kilometer per hour velocity and even dueled agilely against Grievous while maintaining his foothold on the train. Mace has deflected numerous slugs and blaster bolts while waving his lightsabers so quickly as to form a web of light around himself; he has moved fast enough to disappear in front of characters and appear and strike them from behind; he has thrown more than a dozen blows in a second; he has produced several blurring motions with his lightsaber at once; he has fought faster than thought; he has struck repeatedly in less than an eyeblink; etc. Whether Mace's mastery of the Force is the equal of Revan's is arguable; power, Revan only exceeds Mace by a marginal gap at best. He has no feats to suggest otherwise. Pertaining to mastery, Mace's cognizance of the Dark and his ability to perceive Shatterpoints relative to Palpatine and Anakin's influence on the balance of the Force itself, in spite of the imbalance of the Force toward the dark side which blinded the Jedis' vision, certainly attests to his mastery and knowledge. 
 

I have already accepted that Windu is the superior duelist, but I have always sided with those who are stronger force users over duelists, and on that basis I give it to Revan with high difficulty.

Nonsense. Fights between characters are almost universally decided by combat skill, not power. Force powers of course can become factors, but they hardly dramatically alter a battle. The only times they would is if one character is vastly more powerful than the other, and Revan is not so much more powerful than Mace as to instantly overpower him with his Force abilities. Vader, a character more powerful than Mace or Revan, has fought several Jedi, and despite transcending their power, he still usually beat them by fighting skill. Sidious has casually dropped Maul with the Force before because of his considerable advantage over Maul with the Force, but when he fought a character of closer power to himself, such as Luke, Sidious relied on his blade. To address an instance you cited, Bane with the orbalisk armor is more powerful than any of the Jedi he engaged in Rule of Two, yet he never killed them outright during the duel with the Force. He was forced onto a defensive retreat by them. This is how it always is because Force sensitives are capable of protecting themselves against Force powers, and there are numerous other examples of this. How adroit a character is with a lightsaber is more pertinent than how powerful they are; their powers are important but not as much, unless those powers are broader by a colossal extent. Regarding this match, Mace's talent for repelling Force-based TK was sufficient to defend himself against telekinetic attacks from Kar Vastor, a character who, on Haruun Kal, at least approaches Revan's power. Revan's TK will never change the result of this fight by an immense degree, especially since Revan has no telekinetic feats that really outweigh Mace's in the first place. Revan's speed feats are few and far between and nothing impressive anyway; he would be hard pressed to challenge Mace's pace. His lightsaber skills are noticeably inferior, and that would decide the end of the duel more than anything else would. Revan has accomplished nothing that merits the idea he would beat Mace for any kind of majority. His Force feats are decent, not incredible, and his technical martial feats are weak. As I said, Mace would win just about every time.

Flagged for language by the way. 
 
@Baldy  said: 

Just so that I've got this clear, are you saying that Mace was amped because he was effectively tapping into the darkside?

No. He was amped because he was tapping more heavily into his own darkness (not the dark side; dark emotions, as Luke pointed out, are not of a person's dark side unless used for a dark purpose, which is to say a purpose that demeans life and/or the Force's will). Mace was amped because the darkness in himself had ascended to new heights on account of the revelation that Palpatine is a Sith Lord and by extension that a Sith Lord controls the Republic. Vaapad depends on the darkness within an individual; the more darkness there is, the more potent Vaapad is. Because Mace's darkness was elevated far beyond normal, Mace accessed a fighting state he had never achieved anything even close to before. You can read a more comprehensive answer here.
#48 Posted by guttridgeb (4833 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716 said:

@guttridgeb said:

@JamesKM716: Both Meetra and Scourge were above average. If you have read the book you should know that Scourge had the rare ability of using the emotions of his enemies against them.

And Meetra succeeded in defeating Sith that many other Jedi failed in doing. As you should also know, Revan resisted the Sith Emperor who absorbed all living things from an entire planet.

Exactly how were they above average? using your opponents emotions against them is NOT a rare ability. Several in Star Wars lore have used that ability from what i remember.

Are you referring to Nihilius, Traya and Sion? Nihilius has no combat feats at all. his strongest ability, the one that killed most of the Jedi? it didn't work on the Exile because of her unique situation. Traya also has no combat feats except to losing to Nihilius and Sion. Sion's feat was defeating Lonna Vash, who has no feats at all. The Exile's feats aren't that good, if at all. In fact she lost to Nyriss, a featless Sith lord. What feats have you that Scourge is powerful?

A). The Sith Emperor did that by tricking 200 Sith Lords into joining together in order to accomplish what you said. B). Resisting someone is just a sign of strong will, which won't help Revan in a fight.

I know that many Sith and have had that ability but most Sith haven't and that means its not an average Sith ability. I'm not entirely sure why I said rare, sorry. With Meetra, I'm not saying she was among the greatest Jedi but she was definitely above average, people on this site seem to forget just how many weak Jedi there are. I'm probably just arguing semantics here (which I am prone to doing). Regardless, the shear power of his destruction of Nyriss makes it a reasonably impressive feat.

I agree that the ritual itself was not that great but he did absorb every living thing from the planet giving him a vast amount of power. I was talking about the resistance of the Emperor's lightning, I realize that it did harm him greatly but a lightning attack such as that would destroy most Jedi/Sith.

#49 Posted by Baldy (4914 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467:

Oh, I understand now. Thanks for clarifying.

#50 Posted by JamesKM716 (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@guttridgeb: Its fine.

That's fair, i'll accept it. (In all honest, i thought she was above average too, but the Star Wars gurus said she wasn't so i went with them)

I mean, i don't know that just means he melted her down. I think the position he had in helped. Still it is a feat, and shows that Revan does have some ability. But i doubt that its enough to beat Mace.

Oh my apologies (i say that alot, its not sarcasm... sometimes i feel like it sound like sarcasm). It depends on the level of lightning and such. But i mean, Mace isn't going to use lightning so its kinda moot point.