Mace Windu vs. Maul & Savage

@erkan12: Fisto can beat Maul ,

Padawan Kenobi sliced his lightsaber in half ( If Maul was alot better he would never let this happen ) .

The obi-wan we are talking about now is ALOT more experienced .

( he owned Maul as a padawan, now he's like 15 years older and wiser )

While Maul is still the same as then . ( he lost half his mid chlorians but has more experience )

And kit fisto is even better then current Obi - Wan .

I'm not saying Kenobi is better than Cyborg maul ( maul owns Kenobi ) , but Fisto is better than Kenobi and he can take on cyborg Maul imo )

Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking holes in the other’s defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter,astonishingly aggressive and intuitive

That has nothing to do with the duel, Kenobi won because Maul thought that fight was over and Obi-Wan was unarmed, he completely forgot Qui-Gon's lightsaber there.

Here is the part saying that TPM Maul was better than TPM Kenobi, even though Kenobi was amped, he was still no match for TPM Maul ;

The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down. Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his

body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow.

Never! he swore furiously. Qui-Gon's words came back to him. Don't center on your fears. Concentrate on the here and now. He struggled to do so, to contain the emotions warring within and bearing him down. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan. Be strong. Sensing his opportunity slipping away from him and his strength waning, Obi-Wan mounted a final assault. He rushed the Sith Lord with a series of side blows designed to bring the two-bladed lightsaber horizontal. Then he feinted an attack to his enemy's left and brought his own lightsaber over and down with such force that he severed the other's weapon. Crying out in fury, he cut triumphantly at the Sith Lord's horned head, a killing blow. And missed completely. Darth Maul, anticipating the maneuver, had stepped smoothly away. Discarding the lesser half of his severed weapon, he counterattacked swiftly, striking at Obi-Wan with enough force that he knocked the young Jedi sideways and off balance. Quickly he struck him again, harder still, and this time Obi-Wan lost his footing completely and tumbled over the edge of the pit, his lightsaber flying from his hand. For an instant, he was falling, tumbling away into the dark. He reached out in desperation and caught hold of a metal rung just below the lip of the pit. There he hung, helpless, staring up at a triumphant Darth Maul.

Source : The Phantom Menace Novelization

Also Kenobi being a Padawan is irrelevant, Qui-Gon already told to jedi council that Obi-Wan was ready for being a jedi knight, and after the duel in Naboo (only one day after), Obi-Wan has become a jedi knight.

As for Kit Fisto & Obi-Wan, it is saying that better swordfighter, not better duelist. Sparring matches are not good examples, so my advice don't use sparring matches in discussions, if we are going to use sparring matches for this discussions that means; Windu was equal to Saesee Tiin and Quinlan Vos. Which is completely nonsense.

Though since you asked for, Obi-Wan was comparing his defensive style with Kit's offensive style,

Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking holes in the other's defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan's more measured style.

which is true that Fisto is fast and aggressive that doesn't mean he was better duelist.

Here is the Fisto's duel with Asajj Ventress ;

"Your pleasure," Kit hissed, and went at her. He was like fire, Ventress like smoke. The dance had substance but not form, a blur of light that seemed impossibly fast, unbelievably deadly. The two leapt and swerved, collided and bounced away. Single against double light-blades. Hands,

knees, feet, all in a mind-numbing blur. Obi-Wan would have given his right hand to join. Or even to watch such a display. But he had his own worries, his own battle to fight. He struggled with the urge to simply draw his lightsaber and slaughter the X'Ting. His enemies came on and on, struck quickly but clumsily, got in each other's way. Obi-Wan was direct in attack, and as elusive as a breeze. He'd missed the engagement, but suddenly Kit was down! Wounded and groggy from a kick in the jaw, for the first time Ventress had pierced his guard. Her left hand saber sliced his arm but as sparks flew he dove away from her left blade, leaning into a glancing blow from her right. Obi-Wan heard the scream but couldn't see the wound's severity. Kit rolled as Ventress came at him, splashing down into the lake. Ventress stood on the dock smiling hugely, arms and legs spread in triumph, laughing

in that arctic voice. The Jedi tore his way through the X'Ting, breaking arms and legs as he

went, then drew his lightsaber. "This is between me and Ventress," he screamed. Enough of this play! "Anyone who stands between us, dies. Translate it, Ventress!"

Source : The Cestus Deception

Asajj defeated Fisto in this lightsaber duel, true that Asajj watched Fisto's movements before the duel, however I don't believe that gives a huge advantage to Asajj, so at worst Asajj & Fisto are equal fighters here.

Though Obi-Wan was losing to Ventress as well, but he didn't, after this duel he encounter with Asajj Ventress many times and never lost.

Obi-Wan vs. Ventress previous duels ;

Gallery

As for comparisons between Kit Fisto - Asajj Ventress - Obi-Wan and Maul, you can clearly see Maul & Savage's superiority over Asajj Ventress & Obi-Wan ;

Maul & Savage vs. Obi-Wan & Asajj

''But not even their combined might was enough to defeat brothers... Forcing Obi-Wan & Ventress to make a narrow escape.''

And not to mention, this Maul was before his prime, he has grown much stronger after this duel. Means he can easily defeats the likes of Savage, Kit Fisto, Asajj Ventress etc. As for Kenobi, since he perfected his Soresu after AotC, it is hard to penetrate it for even Maul, but he can defeat him via force attacks which he actually did and defeated Kenobi 3 times.

@erkan12:

Well i have to give you that one where kit fisto loses from Ventress .

But Mace pointed out in a novel ( i can give you the text if u wan't ) that he had chosen hwo he tought wer the 3 best duellist of the ENTIRE jedi order .

witch wer Kit fisto and the other 2 .

There are alot of Jedi Masters, and Windu tought they wer the best . ( out of anakin but he tought Any was to mutch of a risk )

I think we can agree that Kit Fisto > Kenobi ?

I do think Maul is clearly better at duelling than Kenobi .

And maybe you are right, and Maul is slightly better than Kit Fisto,

But i don't think Maul is that mutch better, considering Fisto being in the 5 best jedi's in the order , and Maul can't overpower Kenobi that well as we can see in all of their fights , which is degrading Maul's power alot in my opinion .

( imagine him trying to overpower Kit Fisto , as he failed on Kenobi multiple times, and Fisto is even stronger than Kenobi ) .

Having this said :

Kit fisto got pwnd by Sidious REALLY hard .

Maul has problems with overpowering Kenobi, so he would struggle harder against Fisto .

Means Sidious would kick Maul's ass VERY hard

And we know Windu is on Sidious his level ....

I think that Windu would kill savage the same speed that Sidious killed those 3 jedimasters .

And it would end up Maul vs Windu quite fast . ( Also Windu his force skills beat Savage and maul's force skills, so he could force throw maul away and kill off savage )

How can Windu not win this .

@jantjepeter: Fisto only got owned by Sidious that hard because of Force Scream...

The duo.

@jantjepeter:

Im talking about everyone in their prime here. In Palps prime while in the body of his younger clone, he bested Luke freaking Skywalker in a lightsaber duel.

Maul's skills in TCW are said to have increased from TPM. The only reason, and I mean the ONLY reason Maul lost that fight with Obiwan in TPM, is because of good guy power combined with Maul only toying with Obiwan, despite Obiwan taping into his darkness, he was still no match for Maul, the book even said so.

To be fair I never said Sidious was at a 10, I said he was knocking on the door of a 10, he wasn't in the door, but he was knocking on it.

Another point, Mace didn't own Sidious, they were fighting as complete equals, and would have continued to do so for a very long time. Sidious's skills with a lightsaber are insane, even higher than Mace's, but because of Vaapad, Mace can channel all of Sidious's powers and bring himself up to Sidious's skill level of force speed. Then using Shatterpoint, was able to disarm him, this was without a doubt the toughest fight Mace was ever in. Never before did Mace give himself completely over to Vaapad, but using what he learned in his Shatterpoint novel, he no longer feared the darkness. This is the Mace Windu I'm using for this duel, one who is giving himself fully to Vaapad. Mace gets a 9, while Sidious is knocking on the door of a 10. The reason I say Mace is not knocking on the door of a 10, is because Mace will not always have Sidious to channel from, channeling from someone like Maul, would not amp his speed up and power up as much.

Maul and Savage were out matched by Sidious, even 2 vs 1. Something to consider about 2 vs 1 however, in a 2 vs 1 fight, your partner is not going to let you go all out fighting, and is going to get in your way a lot. I saw in the show Sidious did start to tire, so he just said screw it and pushed Maul into a wall and knocked him out, then soloed Savage with ridicules ease. Maul is a extremely skilled duelist, but he's not at Sidious's level, Maul earns a 9 in my book, while Sidious is very nearly a 10.

p.s. Love this website!!! All you guys posting are awesome fans!!

Windu can beat these two while amped.

Stop going around threads to aimlessly post about Mace's chances if he was amped. The fact is that he can only be amped against Palpatine, not against this duo, especially since he failed to harness any amp in SoD's third issue when he did fight Maul with Aayla by his side. Mace will not be amped, and he essentially will never be in the battles forum unless against Palpatine with the same circumstances, or unless he is somehow given one by the OP.

I'm sorry i did't realize this is peak Sidious, well i agree about what you say about Sidious and Windu's tier .

Still concerning Maul , i wouldn't give Maul a 9 ( which equals Windu in this case ) .

If maul was as good as you said, he would be able to take down Kenobi in seconds .

Don't say Maul was playing with Kenobi because Maul was clearly giving his best ALL TIMES , for he's been waiting for his revenge for many years , he was bloodlusted .

If you say Maul is on Windu's and Sidious level in rots , , and if Sidious can kill 3 jedi masters above Kenobi's level in 8 seconds, Maul should have been able to kill Kenobi in less than 8 seconds, yet he takes minutes to do so , and still not finishing it .

You overrate Maul .

Mace. Savage dies in the first second and then mace beats maul in a very hard fight

@jantjepeter:

The fight im referring to is the fight that Kenobi cut Maul in half in TPM. When reading the book, from Maul's point of view, Jin posed no threat to Maul, nor did Obiwan, even when both were attacking him at the same time. Then he feinted like he was falling back, but really he was leading them both along the entire time, he wanted Obiwan to see his master die, and then realize that he was next. Maul's skill was such that he pulled him plan off with ease. Then when Obiwan tapped into his inner rage, Maul only made a small remark about it, he still stated Obiwan posed no threat to him, he only toyed with Obiwan, to feed of his anger and fear. When Obiwan did cut his saber in half, Maul was irritated at himself, not at Obiwan, he knew he just made a careless mistake, so he decided to end the fight, and did. Then the good guy power kicked in, and the "it doesn't matter who has the high ground in this movie" move took place, and Maul was taken by 100% baffling surprise.

Now, in the TCW, Maul took Kenobi apart in the only 1 on 1 fight they did. Its very different fighting someone 2 on 1, then 1 on 1, people get in your way, you cant finght as you normally would. In a straight fight, Maul defeats Kenobi 7/10. But it would be a long fight, form 3 is a very defensive form, that takes a long time to penetrate. GG couldn't do it, nor could Anakin.

@jantjepeter:

Also, Maul for sure would take down Kit, and anyone else in the entire order aside from Mace, Yoda, and Anakin. Those 3 would be the only members who could have any chance of winning.

@shootingnova: IF he was amped!

I never said that fight would amp just IF he was amped.

@penderor: You never said if, and that's not possible here anyway. It's still a red herring.

@ancient_legend:

My point is , if Maul needs this much time to win from obi-wan everytime in the clone wars series, it proofs he's not that anywhere near Sidious his level as Sidious would kill obi - wan in seconds like the other jedi masters .

In the clone wars series Kenobi fought Darth Maul 1 on 1 more than 1 time .

First when he fell of a ship, than when he got surprised that Maul was still alive, than when he was with ventress , and he took on Maul where Ventress took Savage .

Maul fought litterly minutes with Maul , and Maul couldn't overpower him .

Windu is ATLEAST 1 tier above Maul .

If Sidious can kill The jedi masters in seconds , and Windu equals Sidious, where Maul needs minutes to kill a jedi master .

@jantjepeter: windu is not equal to sidious. Even if you repeat it 1000 times to yourself it still wont be true. Any credible SW debater will tell you that windu is not equal with sidious

@martinceld:

In rots Sidious equals Windu,

Sidious is not at his peak here .

@jantjepeter:

Your missing an important piece of information. Obiwan is not on the same level as Maul, nor is he on the same level at Anakin, yet not only did he hold off Anakin for a VERY long time, he ended up beating him, despite Anakin being far more powerful and more skilled, and a bit unbalanced. Bring a form 3 master has its advantages as all the forms do, Obiwans form affords him near perfect defense, that would take anyone, using only blade work, time to get past Obiwans guard. In every fight you mentioned, Obiwan was defeated, and either was knocked or, or was forced to run, I would call both instances a win. Maul is up 2 wins, 1 draw, and 0 loses vs Obiwan. If they fought to the death, no outside help, no running, Maul would kill Obiwan, 7/10, but it would take time... Obiwans strategy is to get his opponents frustrated, then to make a mistake, not to out fight you, being a form 3 specialist, means Obiwan probably cant out fight anyone of the best, he just waits for a mistake, plain and simple.

@ancient_legend:

Doesn't really mather how he does it , he did it against Anakin didn't he .

I HATE how people say anakin lost BECAUSE of his one stupid move he did on the end .

If Anakin was better, he wouldn't have done that, he would of known it wouldn't work .

There's NO excuse to defend Anakin in the Kenobi-Anakin battle .

Anakin was trying to kill Kenobi, and Kenobi was trying to kill Anakin, and Kenobi did it .

( Can i also mention Kenobi didn't wan't to kill Anakin at all, so i'd rather say Kenobi still had something in petto but i'm not sure tough )

People hwo think that talented people , but with stupidity are better than less talented people without stupidity are naive people hwo got it all wrong .

I agree Maul would win from Kenobi tough .

Yet Maul is limited because Kenobi was able to cut Savages arm off while Maul was on him .

@jantjepeter:

I disagree with some of your comments.

First it does matter how a victory comes. Anakin was a hot head, even before he was named Darth Vader. That much is pretty clear. Just from his fighting with Ventress and Dooku, if Anakin can not just steam roll an opponent, he is going to have issues, the more issues he has, the more angry he gets, hes far to cocky for his own good, and Kenobi knew that. During his first fight with Dooku, he went all out right from the start, Dooku was shocked at his skill and power, but stayed calm, and waited for his time to strike.

During his fight with Kenobi, it took everything for Kenobi to just stay alive, he had very few chances to actually attack. Anakin, well really Darth Vader at this time, was a more powerful force user, and a better duelist, but Kenobi used every little trick he knew to stay alive. Once he saw a chance to take the high ground, Vader was so angry at being under estimated, that he just jumped without much thought. It should also be mentioned that Ankain was conflicted about killing Obiwan, so he did not fight at his maximum potential.

About Maul and Savage, its a much different fight when its 2 vs 1, you cant go full on attack, because your constantly worrying about not killing your partner at the same time.

@ancient_legend:

That makes no sence, why would Anakin be conflicted and Kenobi wouldn't be, ?

i quote ''During his fight with Kenobi, it took everything for Kenobi to just stay alive, he had very few chances to actually attack'' .

This is pure ungrounded speculation .

I quote ''was a more powerful force user, and a better duelist, but Kenobi used every little trick he knew to stay alive ''.

I do believe Anakin was a better force user, and a better duelist , but i think someones skill / strength to win is more than force skills and duelist skills , i think having stupidity or not is also part of someones Strength to win . And acting grown up , or childish ( comparing Kenobi with Anakin here ) is also a part of someones strength to win .

The problem with Anakin's recklessness is this :

He can do extraordinary things he normally wouldn't be able to do if he weren't reckless , but he can do very stupid things too once in a while with that .

So we think Anakin is better than Kenobi because we can see him kill Dooku and he has nice feats, because of his recklessness ( like when he jumped of that car in Coruscant to jump on another one ) , it always worked out .

But sometimes Recklessness doesn't work , and that happens in the Kenobi fight where '' luck '' wasn't in his favor .

Reckessness has ups and downs, and maybe Anakin was lucky on his previous acts untill the fight with Kenobi .

Wasn't Kenobi the one hwo hold himself in by the way ?

at the end he did say, no Anakin , don't do it ( before the jump ) .

Kenobi didn't wan't to kill him, so i'd say Kenobi is atleast as emotionally limited as Anakin .

While Anakin was clearly bloodlusted .

And i quote ''Vader was so angry at being under estimated, that he just jumped without much thought ''

I like your point here , sounds logically , but the jumping without tought , and the fact Anakin lost his reasonable thinking here that would of kept him alive just proofs that Kenobi's full package can beat Anakin and his full package .

Both were a bit conflicted during the battle.

Kenobi also warned Vader not to try it, but when Vader tried to jump anyway, Kenobi turned to parry a strike he thought was coming, instead, he chopped Vaders limbs off.

So that's how Vader lost to a less skilled opponent.

Seeing as how Windu defeated Sidious and Maul+Savage were never even a serious threat to the Dark Lord, Mace takes this.

@bossmonster: u better believe it XD

@ancient_legend:

Maybe : p

I laugh'd so hard when i read your comment lol

That's a fact, not just a possibility.

Half a second too slow.

Obi-Wan's whirl to parry didn't meet Anakin's blade. It met his knee. Then his other knee.

And while Anakin was still in the air, burned-off lower legs only starting their topple down the cliff, Obi-Wan's recovery to guard brought his blade through Anakin's left arm above the elbow. He stepped back as Anakin fell.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

ShootingNova

Ancient_Legend

Ok this can mean few things then :

Kenobi didn't want to kill Anakin, so he was only focusing on defending rather than trying to kill him ( and because it's part of Kenobi's fighting style )

Kenobi tought anakin was faster so he expected Anakin to do an attack while in the air , but he didn't ( why not , was he to slow ? We know Anakin is bloodlusted here )

The problem here is is that in the movie we can see Kenobi standing still hitting at Anakin, and Anakin loses in those 2 seconds ).

If Anakin were faster and better, he would have hit Kenobi sooner than Kenobi could hit him . ( There's no excuse for that not even the fact Kenobi did a wrong anticipation on Anakin .

Means Anakin was to slow here .

If you watch the scene over and over again where Anakin jumps, anakin doesn't even aim his Saber at Kenobi, it seems like he's still focusing on the jump while kenobi chops his leggs off ( but this is a only a speculation however )

And Lucas said that any source of eu should adjust to the movies / clone wars series .

And Kenobi's fighting style isn't ''just'' about defending ( but altough mainly it is ) . Otherwise Kenobi could never defeat someone . ( How would he have hurt Savage otherwise for example )

@jantjepeter: Yes, Kenobi's defensive fighting style is to do just that, defend.

Vaapad is weak against multiple opponents so that would be a non factor.

Same goes for shatterpoint.

I think the team wins rather decisively.

@shootingnova: @silentbat:

Nova is correct. Everyone has their limits and weaknesses, even the mighty Vader. Pride was a big weakness from him, along with most other dark side followers. By exploiting weaknesses and limits, a less skilled opponent can defeat one of more skill.

To put it another way, Im also a street fighter 4 player, if you pick one character, lets say Akuma, and put him up against another character, lets say Dan, Akuma would be considered a better, more powerful character, but if the Dan player fights in such a way that it messes up your game plan, you could lose, maybe he throws more than your used to, or plays very defensibly, you could get frustrated and make more mistakes.

Windu dies.

Windu can't handle both unless he is given the amp he had against Sidious. The duo wins but not easily

duo wins

Windu wins, potentially stomps.

@i_like_swords:

COME AT ME.

LAL.

Vong Warriors aren't much better than Magna Guards. God, I was kinda wonky a year ago. ^_^

team

Team. Maul alone could press Windu, with Savage on his side Mace dies.

bump...

The one who can compete with sidious takes this

Mace wins.

Mace, yeah

Mace.

I can't believe this... Mace can barely react to Sidious, and Mace's superior in Force power (Dooku) was insta-ragdolled by Sidious. Mace cannot hold a candle to Sidious.

Team, nearly if not every time, and they don't exactly tax themselves in the process. This Maul lowballing is pathetic.

Make the case then and stop whining.

Want to know why people rank Mace higher now? Because new arguments and evidence were presented to convince us.

Yours on the other hand haven't changed. And have been debunked.

If the evidence is so overwhelmingly convincing, present it and guess what? We will change our minds. Wind the threads back one year and what do you notice? Nigh completely different opinions. We've shown we can change. The problem is not us.

I'm going to say that the brothers take it, but not easily. Savage vs Mace is a squash fest, but with Maul keeping Mace incredibly busy, Savage will be much more effective. Mace is a High 8. He'll be competing against Maul, who is a low to mid 8, and Savage who is most likely a High 7. He can beat either one, but not together.

@bigsambino87:

Maul isn't a low 8 even by TPM, LMAO. TCW/SOD Maul is a mid/high tier 8.

I love how the Maul haters/Kenobi disciples baselessly accuse me of whining but don't back up their pathetic, biased claims...

Mace cannot compete with Sidious in the EU. Movies? Sure. But Lucas has admitted to be ignorant on the EU, which I suppose this thread uses. Mace cannot react to Sidious in the EU, and his slight superior in the Force, Tyranus, was instantly ragdolled by Sidious.

Maul has stomped Kenobi in the Force, collapsed tunnels and brought down a shuttle while hindered. Those Force feats rival those of Mace's. Savage has pushed a shuttle massively pre-prime, blown back TCW S3 Anakin+Obi (both of which are Ventress level) back with a Force Repulse massively pre-prime, and shattered a cell made of lightsaber resistant Mandalorian iron. That's enough to compete with Mace. Their combined power (while both were pre-prime) had them blow back 100+ heavily armored soldiers. That's Force power ahead of Mace.

Saber-wise, Maul drove back TCW Kenobi, wrecked a Savage capable of evenly dueling with Plo+Asajj, and fodderized three near-ROTS MagnaGuards. That's close to Mace. Pre-prime Savage dueled evenly with Plo and Ventress. Prime Savage is better. Mace won't have an easy time dispatching that guy with Maul pressing him.

Strength-wise, both brothers are superior. Speed-wise, Maul is on his level and probably higher. Savage can keep pace. Mace is thoroughly outmatched.

All of these arguments have been debunked time and again. Not to mention, some( most) of them are flat out wrong.

The duo win this in a good fight.

However, I could see Mace winning if he manages to cut down Savage first.

---