Mace Windu vs. Darth Vader

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ShootingNova

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#201  Edited By ShootingNova

^LOL.

Now, with that out of the way, I repeat my analysis of this fight:

@shootingnova said:

This battle has been done before as well, although since it was created before the other one I don't think it deserves to be flagged. I repeat my analysis (but in more detail):

Physically speaking - Vader is superior. His strength exceeds Mace, having ripped off steel doors from ships, torn down crystalline pillars, been unaffected by the weight of a dozen stormtroopers and so forth. Windu has flattened Super Battle Droid plating with his punches, which is impressive but not quite on par. And for that matter, he unleashed numerous rapid punches to accomplish the aforementioned feat anyways, plus it may been a result of Shatterpoint, which is inapplicable against any notable opponent like Vader. Given Vader's durability which has enabled him to survive lightsaber strikes, explosions, collapsing cathedrals, etc. that won't be happening here, and of course, Vader is still noticeably stronger. As far as speed goes, they are just about even. Both have fought in blurs and generated afterimages. Windu has fought faster than thought and Vader has drawn his lightsaber faster than thought. Windu has formed webs out of his blade while Vader has spun his lightsaber around his body to form a shield.

With relevance to dueling skill, Windu takes a slight majority. He has beaten Ventress, stalemated Sora Bulq, stalemated an immobile Grievous, stalemated and contended with Dooku in the past, etc.

Vader has contended with an amped Maul, beaten Celeste Morne, beaten Roan Shyrne, beaten Ferus Olin, beaten the Dark Woman, defeated five Jedi simultaneously and dueled evenly with Obi-Wan Kenobi, all of which were achieved before his prime. At his prime, he was able to duel as a perfect equal to Luke. These are hardly unimpressive feats, and they place Vader only slightly below Windu. And for that matter, as Intrepid has just pointed out, Vader has also been noted as one of history's most celebrated duelists.

Telekinetically, Vader wins by a significant margin. Windu's exaggerated feats from Tartakovsky's mini-series barred, Windu's feats include lifting trees and boulders, moving tanks and destroying droids with a Force Push. Impressive, but Vader's feats include collapsing cathedrals, hurling everything in a temple room including furniture, chunks of rock, parts of wall, ceiling and ground (and so on), collapsing colossal trees, crushed titanic droids, hurling around ships, tearing apart large platforms, hurling a vast number of troops (which just about rivals Windu's Force Wave feat from Tartakovsky's mini-series anyways) and so forth, all prior to his prime. Vader wins by a noticeable margin.

On a side note Vader could incite Force Rage easily if he happens to be harmed or something of that nature. He could very well use some involuntary powers like Force Scream, which he has used to crack walls, melt durasteel, melt parts of ceiling and so forth. Windu has never channeled an opponent's darkness with Vaapad, at least against nobody of note. He was unable to win against Dooku, unable to win against Sora Bulq, unable to win against Grievous and unable to win against Kar Vastor. So Vaapad being automatically effective here is simply incorrect.

I have not seen anything to the contrary from the Windu supporters, so I stand by my assessment.

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Emperorb777

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Darth Vader Stomps.

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ShootingNova

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@immortal777: Not very sure about a stomp, but he wins a solid majority.

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Emperorb777

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@immortal777: Not very sure about a stomp, but he wins a solid majority.

Lalalalalalalala I can't hear you. Of course my fav stomps.

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#206  Edited By Erkan12

Even at force, Vader is hardly superior.

Loading Video...
No Caption Provided

(And his shatterpoint technique)

Windu can use dark side techniques such as force crush and vaapad, without falling to dark side...

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#207  Edited By Intrepid37
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#208  Edited By Erkan12

@intrepid37 said:

@erkan12: Not even worth responding to.

Lol. You guys calling me Maul fan but believe me you guys are worse. I am presenting proofs with videos but still...

There is a difference level between two, Windu is same level with Yoda and Sidious. While Vader is apprentice who is never embrace the dark side fully and he is more machine than man. Just deal with it.

(I would say the same things about; Windu vs TPM Maul.)

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Intrepid37

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@erkan12: Get out of here. Mace used Crush on Grievous once. So what? Vader used Crush on a TIE fighter. And despite that, Mace had to gather visible energy to move an 13 meter long AT-TE off a cliff; with less difficulty, Vader throws a 16 meter Y-wing. Not to mention feats such as collapsing an entire cathedral on himself, knocking over a huge tree, ripping apart robots that dwarf himself in size, etc. Vader is a few tiers above Mace in sheer power.

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Erkan12

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#210  Edited By Erkan12

He doesn't even need a lightsaber lol.

Loading Video...

And wait for it... He kicked Sidious's ass...

Loading Video...

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Yep, you're definitely a waste of time.

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#214  Edited By Rainx20

@shootingnova: First Wookiepeedia is a reliable source for SW info for the most part, don't talk it down. But I can't make an argument in favor of Vader to combat Tenebrous's speed, so I don't have much more to say.

@kingares109 Nova is a SW expert obviously and I do respect his knowledge, I never disrespected him. Anyways people are entitled to have their own opinion and voice it.

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ShootingNova

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#216  Edited By ShootingNova

@rainx20: Wookiepedia is more than reliable in some cases, and more than unreliable in others. I assure you that he wasn't lifting general "heavy rocks" like Wookieepedia was making it seem to be. I repeat - you should read Darth Plagueis, the actual source, where you will find reliable feats. Wookieepedia has presented little on Tenebrous in regards to his power anyways, and I believe the same was done to Plagueis.

Tenebrous beats Vader every time by virtue of:

  • Significantly overshadowing speed which prevents Vader from doing anything beyond defending himself, and with difficulty
  • Superior TK
  • Vastly superior protective power
  • Vastly superior agility
  • More knowledge of esoteric Force powers

And again, granted his position in the Order of the Sith Lords, it should not be difficult to imagine him eclipsing Vader in power by a considerable margin. But this is irrelevant anyways.

Vader should win a solid majority of 7-8/10 in this fight.

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Rainx20

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@shootingnova: I really can't argue with that because Vader lacks to many feats to contend with superior speed. So where would you rank Vader?

And thanks your evidence makes me sure Vader will beat Mace.

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@rainx20: Unsure about what you mean by saying "lacks too many feats". But my list for the most powerful Sith would be:

1. Palpatine - Obviously; he has the best feats, labelled as the most powerful Sith Lord of all time by numerous sources

2. Darth Caedus- Notable TK, very impressive speed and dueling prowess.

3. Darth Plagueis - Outstanding speed, strength, TK, agility, impressive Lightning prowess and salient dueling along with knowledge on various esoteric powers

4. Darth Tenebrous - Tremendous speed, superb telekinetic strength, exceptional agility, skillful dueling, arresting Lightning and good knowledge on esoteric powers.

5. Darth Vader - Very impressive durability, strength, speed and telekinetic potency as well as remarkable dueling skill

6. Darth Tyranus - Exceptional duelist, strong TK, decent Lightning, impressive strength and speed, especially for a man of his age

7. Darth Maul - Strikingly fast and strong, excellent TK as of TCW, superb dueling skill.

8. Darth Malgus - Imposing strength, decent speed, strong telekinetic power and prominent dueling adroitness.

9. Darth Traya - Notable TK, extremely impressive TP and cloaking powers, extensive knowledge of various esoteric powers, very impressive healing powers and overall she's here because she has so much variety.

10. Darth Bane - Very high strength, notable speed and TK, decent dueling and extensive knowledge of various esoteric powers. The issue is that he has never defeated anybody under his own power in dueling aside from Sirak, who doesn't hold a candle to the others here, while his most impressive TK feats and his Drain feat were all accomplished under some level of amplifcation.

In case you were wondering why some other Sith weren't there:

Zannah falls slightly short from given feats, although of course she became more powerful than Bane after DoE, but I'm not including Sith Lords with hypothetical layers of power.

Exar Kun doesn't make it because he has never defeated notable opponents and he was amped by amulets/Yavin IV's Dark Side aura to perform his best feats.

Naga Sadow doesn't make it because his combat feats are unimpressive and it was the Corsair that blew up the stars, not him.

Vitiate doesn't make it because he requires either prep or amps from relics, trinkets, Dark Side nexuses, or even both in order to perform his feats.

Nihilus doesn't make it because he is only powerful at Drain, which doesn't work on various beings, making him float around as a bit of a question mark.

Krayt doesn't make it because.... well.... he just didn't impress.

Ulic Qel-Droma was simply unimpressive.

Marka Ragnos was beaten by a padawan. No idea why some people consider him to be the most powerful Sith Lord.

And thanks your evidence makes me sure Vader will beat Mace.

No problem.

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Mace Windu stomps

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#220  Edited By Rainx20

@shootingnova: Thanks, I appreciate the detail and reasoning. I can agree with your rankings because of your knowledge on SW is probably the best on CV. I am really surprised to see that Maul is above some of the others.

Not that it matters but I meant that Vader never displayed anything that would make me think he can contend with speed like Tenebrous's.

@dorukesin not at all, read some of Nova's points, some of Mace's best feats are inadequate to Vader's.

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ShootingNova

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@rainx20: You are surprised to see Maul above who? And why?

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#222  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

@shootingnova:

1. Palpatine - Obviously; he has the best feats, labelled as the most powerful Sith Lord of all time by numerous sources

2. Darth Caedus- Notable TK, very impressive speed and dueling prowess.

3. Darth Plagueis - Outstanding speed, strength, TK, agility, impressive Lightning prowess and salient dueling along with knowledge on various esoteric powers

4. Darth Tenebrous - Tremendous speed, superb telekinetic strength, exceptional agility, skillful dueling, arresting Lightning and good knowledge on esoteric powers.

5. Darth Vader - Very impressive durability, strength, speed and telekinetic potency as well as remarkable dueling skill

6. Darth Tyranus - Exceptional duelist, strong TK, decent Lightning, impressive strength and speed, especially for a man of his age

7. Darth Maul - Strikingly fast and strong, excellent TK as of TCW, superb dueling skill.

8. Darth Malgus - Imposing strength, decent speed, strong telekinetic power and prominent dueling adroitness.

9. Darth Traya - Notable TK, extremely impressive TP and cloaking powers, extensive knowledge of various esoteric powers, very impressive healing powers and overall she's here because she has so much variety.

10. Darth Bane - Very high strength, notable speed and TK, decent dueling and extensive knowledge of various esoteric powers. The issue is that he has never defeated anybody under his own power in dueling aside from Sirak, who doesn't hold a candle to the others here, while his most impressive TK feats and his Drain feat were all accomplished under some level of amplifcation.

Interesting. Though I disagree with some of them, this is a pretty good ranking.

Why the sudden change with Vitiate? IIRC you said Vitiate was in the top 5 in the past......

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#223  Edited By ShootingNova

@dccomicsrule2011: What exactly do you disagree with?

And as I have perused through Vitiate's showings, it was evident that each and every one of his feats included one or more of the following elements:

1. Prep

2. Amps from relics/trinkets/dark side auras/nexuses

3. Support from other people

This relates to all of his feats. His rituals not only required prep, but also other Sith Lords working in conjunction with him, so his ritual feats on Nathema and Dromund Kaas are certainly inapplicable in combat. All of his feats in the Revan novel take place on Dromund Kaas, which possesses a powerful dark side aura left behind by a previous Sith colonization which attracted the Empire in the first place, and additionally Vitiate's former rituals which caused perpetual storms added to Kaas's dark side aura. Following a discussion with Intrepid, I came to the realization that all of Vitiate's Mind Control feats were prepped (and, of course, amped). His feats in TOR were all prepped, and his final feat in which he collapsed the Dark Temple took place within the Dark Temple itself - not only was he amped by Dromund Kaas, but he was amped by the tremendous dark side energies within the Dark Temple which is noted many times throughout TOR as being strong enough to drive people insane, and so on, as a result of his rituals as well as the lingering spirits within its halls.

None of this is taking into account the fact that Vitiate had bolstered his powers with relics and trinkets throughout his career. His galactic-level possession feats all required an unidentified level of prep, and without prep and unfair amps supporting him over his opponents, his body was taken over by a Dark Side entity named Sel-Makor, within a very powerful Dark Side nexus. Sel-Makor had previously barred Vitiate from leaving the area, which is a clear indication of his superiority despite the fact that both could draw on the dark side nexus.

In short, all of Vitiate's feats involved amplifying circumstances which favored him over his opponents. Otherwise, he did not impress. In other words, he is overrated.

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@shootingnova: Bane and Traya. Not that i disagree I just always assumed they would be more powerful, especially Traya.

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#225  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

@shootingnova: Personally I would put Bane over Traya and Malgus. I would probably also add Zannah as well. =/

Darth Plagueis and Jacen is still something I constantly flip-flop on.

One day I consider Plagueis the second most powerful Sith Lord, the next minute I consider Caedus the most powerful between the two.

Ah,si, si. Well, I know think Vitiate is up there with Mace, Galen and Revan when it comes to the most "overrated" Star Wars characters.

Some people swear to God he is as powerful as Palpatine. -____- I have had several discussion behind this topic.

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#226  Edited By ShootingNova

@dccomicsrule2011: Zannah just barely fails to make the list, but I'm not sure about Bane over Traya. Traya is up there because of her enormous versatility, not because of combat purposes. But her TP is incredibly powerful, so is her Drain, Healing, Cloak and precognition. She looks to have powerful TK and has decent knowledge on lightsaber combat, but unfortunately she has no feats in that regard. In a confrontation with most opponents, she could simply Drain them unless they are immune, in which case she likely loses but given how powerful her TP is, I wouldn't discount that immediately. It could be used to buy time or whatever, but the reason I put her up there is really because she has a wide range of powers both useful and not so useful in combat, and excels at them, as well as having a wide range of knowledge on various esoteric powers. Bane would probably beat more people in a fight, but still.... you could say that Traya kills Bane via Drain before he can attack if she has the range. She is quite wanting for speed feats though

As for Bane, I'm not so sure if he has above Malgus. They are equal in just about everything. Conversely, Bane has a more powerful Barrier (tanking sonic grenades) but Malgus has a more powerful Force Scream (shattering pillars). I'm not sure about who wins with Tutaminis, but I recall Malgus was easily absorbing Adraas's Lightning. Otherwise, they are even in speed, strength, skill, and Lightning. TK is a bit arguable but frankly, without amps such as the Orbalisks I would be inclined to favor Malgus. And one could make a case for Malgus's dueling being superior, but that's irrelevant to the thread (if anything, these last few posts have been totally irrelevant LOL).

As for Plagueis and Caedus - I used to think Plagueis was stronger, but I'm not sure why I had a change of heart. Generally, Plagueis looks to be more powerful, while Caedus looks to be more skilled. It's generally seen throughout SW history that the better duelist wins a close match against a better Force-user. That's probably why I have Caedus here, but frankly I consider Plagueis telekinetically superior. Mainly because we haven't seen him cut loose.

Vitiate is ridiculously overrated. I've seen people say his rituals could be done on the fly, and that he couldn't be killed, etc.

@rainx20 said:

Bane and Traya. Not that i disagree I just always assumed they would be more powerful, especially Traya.

Not really. They wouldn't win as many combat scenarios as the ones above and I really am not sure. Traya is a wildcard because her best power is Drain, which is useless in fights against certain beings. Conversely, Bane is basically a weaker version of Vader who has Lightning. With Orbalisks, he wins many combat scenarios, but otherwise, I don't think so. He had amplifying circumstances in all of his more bombarding feats. Who exactly would you expect them to replace?

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ShootingNova

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And throwing this thread back on-topic, I must say the notion of Windu Crushing Vader is beyond ridiculous. If anything, it'd be more likely for Vader to just Choke him, but both are absurd notions anyways.

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Windu easily wins. He was in the same league with Yoda.

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I take vader he might overpower mace in lightsaber combat and since joining the sith and gaining robotic cybernetics darth vader will be to strong physically and in the force I'd say darth vader 8/10

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Mace Windu 6/10

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mace kills him with lightsaber..vader might win via force power feats..Nobody is beating mace via lightsaber skill..Its been claimed his saber skill is better than yoda

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ShootingNova

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Mace Windu's saber skill has never been listed by any source to be superior to Yoda's, and sources have time and again told us Yoda is more skilled a swordsman. No, the fight with Sidious is not legitimate evidence for Windu being more skilled.

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Mace Windu in a stomp. Seriously, Anakin was overrated. People have called him the most powerful Jedi after Yoda. That's wrong. He HAD the POTENTIAL to become that but lost it.

Mace mastered all forms of lightsaber combat and even CREATED one on his own. Vapaad. Against Anakin(pre getting his ass handed to him by Obi Wan)? Mace by a land slide. Lightsaber combat, use of the force, EVERYTHING.

Against Vader? Vader only got slower after the implants(though physically stronger). Vader couldn't handle Maul. You think he can beat Windu? Windu was only rivaled by Dooku and surpassed by Yoda. He BEAT the Emperor fair and square. I don't want to hear your theories about how "but-but the Emperor planned it all along...". No. Windu won due to his style. Vapaad uses the enemies own aggression and Dark Side power against him. So yeah, fighting a Dark Side master gave him a pretty big amp. It's like Superman fighting someone made of blue sun radiation. So, Vader has better telekinesis feats(not meaning that Mace couldn't do that if he wanted to), but Windu is still a better duelist, force user(not just TK, all aspects of the force), and faster. He's mastered the Shatterpoint ability. It basically shows you where the enemy's weak point is. Just add a little pressure with the force and the enemy is done. Mace crushes Vader's life support before he pulls out his lightsaber.

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They kill each other or hardly wounded and exhausted Windu wins.

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Pharoh_Atem

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Vader.

Also, most of the post on this page are utter nonsense.

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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Vader wins.

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#237  Edited By YodaPrime

Pure H2H? mace with low/mid diff. Force powers allowed Vader Low diff.

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Man the Windu fan boys are strong in this one.

@erkan12 Your one example of Mace's Force crush was against a non-Force user, you realize this right?

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ShootingNova

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Still Vader in a good fight. Nobody has ever presented a logical or reasonable argument for Mace Windu. Seriously. Using Crush on Vader? LMAO. Mace has only displayed that once, out of desperation (he has never shown in a fight) and this was against a non-Force sensitive, who has no powers or abilities to lessen the effects of Crush. By contrast, Vader has actually Crushed Jedi hearts. Is the Jedi as powerful as Windu? Not even remotely. But nobody argued that Vader would wreck Mace with the Force. The fact is, though, that between manipulating enormous trees effortlessly decades before his prime, collapsing cathedrals, crushing titanic droids, Crushing Jedi hearts, melting durasteel with his rage, hurling almost everything in a room in the Jedi Temple at Ferus, wrecking medical facilities etc. Vader is multiple tiers ahead of Mace. Mace's best feats are inconsistent - it tends to be cited that he throws about armies, when he only knocks back a few waves of droids via a TK wave, and then uses a domino effect to knock over the rest. He also lost to an army of unarmed beings, has been unable to lift miniature transports, and he required help from Yoda to TK even fewer droids on Coruscant. Clearly, his showings are not of that ballpark. His feats include manipulating trees, collapsing unstable portions of cliff faces, manipulating AT-TE's, tearing apart droids via Force Push, etc. He is powerful, but Vader is still several tiers ahead.

Mace may be more skilled and more agile and mobile, but Vader is significantly stronger, vastly more powerful, vastly more durable, and almost as skilled. The difference is minimal, and the power edge is much more noticeable. Vader wins 6-7/10 in a close fight.

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Jedisupermaster

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#240  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@shootingnova said:

@rainx20: Unsure about what you mean by saying "lacks too many feats". But my list for the most powerful Sith would be:

1. Palpatine - Obviously; he has the best feats, labelled as the most powerful Sith Lord of all time by numerous sources

2. Darth Caedus- Notable TK, very impressive speed and dueling prowess.

3. Darth Plagueis - Outstanding speed, strength, TK, agility, impressive Lightning prowess and salient dueling along with knowledge on various esoteric powers

4. Darth Tenebrous - Tremendous speed, superb telekinetic strength, exceptional agility, skillful dueling, arresting Lightning and good knowledge on esoteric powers.

5. Darth Vader - Very impressive durability, strength, speed and telekinetic potency as well as remarkable dueling skill

6. Darth Tyranus - Exceptional duelist, strong TK, decent Lightning, impressive strength and speed, especially for a man of his age

7. Darth Maul - Strikingly fast and strong, excellent TK as of TCW, superb dueling skill.

8. Darth Malgus - Imposing strength, decent speed, strong telekinetic power and prominent dueling adroitness.

9. Darth Traya - Notable TK, extremely impressive TP and cloaking powers, extensive knowledge of various esoteric powers, very impressive healing powers and overall she's here because she has so much variety.

10. Darth Bane - Very high strength, notable speed and TK, decent dueling and extensive knowledge of various esoteric powers. The issue is that he has never defeated anybody under his own power in dueling aside from Sirak, who doesn't hold a candle to the others here, while his most impressive TK feats and his Drain feat were all accomplished under some level of amplifcation.

In case you were wondering why some other Sith weren't there:

Zannah falls slightly short from given feats, although of course she became more powerful than Bane after DoE, but I'm not including Sith Lords with hypothetical layers of power.

Exar Kun doesn't make it because he has never defeated notable opponents and he was amped by amulets/Yavin IV's Dark Side aura to perform his best feats.

Naga Sadow doesn't make it because his combat feats are unimpressive and it was the Corsair that blew up the stars, not him.

Vitiate doesn't make it because he requires either prep or amps from relics, trinkets, Dark Side nexuses, or even both in order to perform his feats.

Nihilus doesn't make it because he is only powerful at Drain, which doesn't work on various beings, making him float around as a bit of a question mark.

Krayt doesn't make it because.... well.... he just didn't impress.

Ulic Qel-Droma was simply unimpressive.

Marka Ragnos was beaten by a padawan. No idea why some people consider him to be the most powerful Sith Lord.

And thanks your evidence makes me sure Vader will beat Mace.

No problem.

Vader is vastly superior to Tenebrous and Plagueis in lightsaber skills. He has speed feats that are just as impressive as theirs + he fought with some realy fast force-users, such as Maul, for example, whos speed feats are, in my opinion, even more impressive than Tenebrouses, or Plagueises feats. And how will TK help aither of them in a duel with vader, especialy when he himself is an excelent TK master? Vader can beat aither of them in a duel.

And about thread. Mace was able to beat Palpatine, so he will beat Vader + Shatterpoint + much more experience.

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ShootingNova

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#241  Edited By ShootingNova
@jedisupermaster said:

Vader is vastly superior to Tenebrous and Plagueis in lightsaber skills.

Not necessarily. Tenebrous and Plagueis's immediate precedence to Palpatine, who is a whole tier ahead of Vader in raw skill, should indicate that Tenebrous and Plagueis are comparable in skill to Vader. That's logical enough.

He has speed feats that are just as impressive as theirs + he fought with some realy fast force-users, such as Maul, for example, whos speed feats are, in my opinion, even more impressive than Tenebrouses, or Plagueises feats.

Not even close. Tell me when Maul or Vader can fight entire armies using Force pikes, not lightsabers and no offensive Force powers and avoid being hit once, or Tenebrous running so fast he nearly bowled Plagueis over and giving Plagueis strain to keep up, or Plagueis fighting with Venamis so quickly that the two of them left behind blurring trails throughout an entire forest so as to generate the illusion of lightning flashing through the forest understory.

Tenebrous and Plagueis are vastly faster than Vader in combat speed, and Vader's running speed and agility are nil by comparison. Vader has absolutely no showings to compare to them in any of these categories. In speed, Tenebrous and Plagueis are multiple tiers ahead of Vader. In running speed and agility, they are interminably ahead. And Maul's speed showings are not more impressive than Tenebrous's or Plagueis's. They are both several tiers ahead of him as well.

And how will TK help aither of them in a duel with vader, especialy when he himself is an excelent TK master? Vader can beat aither of them in a duel.

Because Plagueis is vastly more powerful than Vader is and can ragdoll him. Tenebrous is similarly as powerful as Vader is from telekinetic showings, but based on showings of overall Force power and his status within the Banite Sith Line, he is well ahead of Vader in terms of overall Force ability.

Vader might be more skilled, but the disparity would not be substantial. The fact is that Tenebrous and Plagueis are so much faster than Vader that Vader would only be capable of defending, which he could only manage for so long before falling. That, and he would never be able to land a blow on them because of their skill, speed and agility.

In the case of Plagueis, he also has telekinesis to fall back on to dominate Vader in that category.

That said, you quote me making an off-topic post, so we are beginning to derail the thread with this. I suggest you simply concede or agree-to-disagree so as to avoid taking this thread off-track.

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Vader wins for a solid majority, especially in the Force. Between collapsing cathedrals while severely injured (he was also in the underlevels of the building), stomping groups of Jedi, collapsing gargantuan trees, bringing down enormous mining machines, destroying huge droids, throwing empty cargo containers, parts of a ship and pieces of equipment, etc he should be far more powerful than Mace. In addition, if we want to include his TFU feats from both novels and game cutscenes (I don't know wether they're Legends or not, however), he stomped Rahm Kota (who was powerful enough to detach parts from a facility, shatter every viewport in a command center vith a Force Wave and deflect Force Lightning), briefly chocked Starkiller, levitated massive platforms high in the air and then brought them down, and Force gripped a more powerful version of Starkiller while not trying to kill him (and that's one of the reasons why Vader lost).

He could also arguably win with TP if it wasn't for the fact that he doesn't use it often in combat, considering that he has mentally raped other Force sensitives 20+ years before achieving his peak in power, possibly by using Force Horror or Memory Walk (the results of the feat seem a bit too extreme for just being the basic Force Fear), drained knowledge from powerful Jedi, etc. In lightsaber skill, he and Windu should be close, with Mace being still superior. I personally see Vader winning 7 or 8 times out of 10 and, if he is clever enough to use his power from the beginning of the fight, he would win 10/10, if not stomp Mace with the Force.

@shootingnova From what I've seen I don't agree that Tenbrous is well ahead of Vader in power, and he seems to be only better in terms of speed and knowledge. I personally would put them on the same level for now, but we'll see.

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#243  Edited By ShootingNova

@zapan87: Tenebrous is not well ahead of Vader in telekinetic showings. He has better showings in other areas. For instance, he is plainly superior to Vader in Force Speed, by several tiers. With Force Barrier, Tenebrous has repelled explosions capable of sundering mines. Vader's Barrier has only repelled blaster bolts. Vader is only so much more powerful than the early Banite Sith, such as Bane, who is still around Vader's tier. Tenebrous is much further down the line (with each successive Sith Lord confirmed to be more powerful than the last), and is the immediate predecessor to Plagueis, whom is vastly more powerful than Vader.

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#244  Edited By Erkan12

@silentbat: Thats something even Anakin or Obi-Wan can't do. Yeah its impressive. His force usage speed especially.

As for thread,

Windu is another class (Yoda & Sidious level), however Vader is Maul & Dooku class at best. And I've some quotes about this power levels from SW creator George Lucas as well.

Windu 10 / 10.

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@jedisupermaster said:

Vader is vastly superior to Tenebrous and Plagueis in lightsaber skills.

Not necessarily. Tenebrous and Plagueis's immediate precedence to Palpatine, who is a whole tier ahead of Vader in raw skill, should indicate that Tenebrous and Plagueis are comparable in skill to Vader. That's logical enough.

He has speed feats that are just as impressive as theirs + he fought with some realy fast force-users, such as Maul, for example, whos speed feats are, in my opinion, even more impressive than Tenebrouses, or Plagueises feats.

Not even close. Tell me when Maul or Vader can fight entire armies using Force pikes, not lightsabers and no offensive Force powers and avoid being hit once, or Tenebrous running so fast he nearly bowled Plagueis over and giving Plagueis strain to keep up, or Plagueis fighting with Venamis so quickly that the two of them left behind blurring trails throughout an entire forest so as to generate the illusion of lightning flashing through the forest understory.

Tenebrous and Plagueis are vastly faster than Vader in combat speed, and Vader's running speed and agility are nil by comparison. Vader has absolutely no showings to compare to them in any of these categories. In speed, Tenebrous and Plagueis are multiple tiers ahead of Vader. In running speed and agility, they are interminably ahead. And Maul's speed showings are not more impressive than Tenebrous's or Plagueis's. They are both several tiers ahead of him as well.

And how will TK help aither of them in a duel with vader, especialy when he himself is an excelent TK master? Vader can beat aither of them in a duel.

Because Plagueis is vastly more powerful than Vader is and can ragdoll him. Tenebrous is similarly as powerful as Vader is from telekinetic showings, but based on showings of overall Force power and his status within the Banite Sith Line, he is well ahead of Vader in terms of overall Force ability.

Vader might be more skilled, but the disparity would not be substantial. The fact is that Tenebrous and Plagueis are so much faster than Vader that Vader would only be capable of defending, which he could only manage for so long before falling. That, and he would never be able to land a blow on them because of their skill, speed and agility.

In the case of Plagueis, he also has telekinesis to fall back on to dominate Vader in that category.

That said, you quote me making an off-topic post, so we are beginning to derail the thread with this. I suggest you simply concede or agree-to-disagree so as to avoid taking this thread off-track.

Not realy. Sidious was a genious in lightsaber combat and he proved himself to be the greatest duelist among the sith. Maybe Tenebrous and Plagueis didnt pay as much attention to their lightsaber skills as Palpatine did, or maybe he was just more talented. Tenebrous and Plagueis are great lightsaber duelists, but Vader is greater, since he has much more impressive lightsaber feats.

Maul ran in a blur more than once, fought many opponents by himself, was faster than thought etc. And Vader fought with him as an equal. Vader was moving as if he was teleporting and fought 8 jedi at once, not some non-force sensitive beings. Plus, vader was faster than thought etc. Vader fought Dooku as an equal and Dooku fought Yoda as an equal... who fought Sidious as an equal. Do your math. Tenebrous and Plagueis are not faster than Vader.

Tenebrous and Plagueis are not more powerful than Vader in telekinesis. In my opinion, vaders showings are much more impressive. And if Plagueis cant ragdoll Venamis, he wont ragdoll Vader.

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#246  Edited By ShootingNova
@jedisupermaster said:

Not realy. Sidious was a genious in lightsaber combat and he proved himself to be the greatest duelist among the sith. Maybe Tenebrous and Plagueis didnt pay as much attention to their lightsaber skills as Palpatine did, or maybe he was just more talented. Tenebrous and Plagueis are great lightsaber duelists, but Vader is greater, since he has much more impressive lightsaber feats.

In other words, you will appeal to ignorance and suggest Tenebrous and Plagueis might have been simply much poorer duelists (you have no evidence for this), but instead neglect to view the inverse, because it wouldn't suit your argument? That's not how it works.

And Tenebrous enjoyed lightsaber combat. Plagueis didn't, but so what? Palpatine didn't either. But that doesn't mean Vader is more skilled than Palpatine.

Maul ran in a blur more than once, fought many opponents by himself, was faster than thought etc. And Vader fought with him as an equal. Vader was moving as if he was teleporting and fought 8 jedi at once, not some non-force sensitive beings. Plus, vader was faster than thought etc. Vader fought Dooku as an equal and Dooku fought Yoda as an equal... who fought Sidious as an equal. Do your math. Tenebrous and Plagueis are not faster than Vader.

Vader never fought Dooku as an equal (that was Anakin, who is clearly faster than Vader), and he was losing to Maul. He was slower than both of them. You don't need to be their equal in speed to be their equal in skill, anyway. And Yoda is not an equal to Dooku, he held back for the entire fight and effortlessly blocked Dooku's blows whilst Dooku tired himself out. Your ABC logic fails tremendously once you realize that Sidious and Yoda immensely outclass Vader in speed, so much so that Palpatine could speedblitz him. Your ABC dueling showings are non sequitur comments to your previous claims of Vader's speed.

Yes, I did my maths. Maul running in a blur and those other feats are mediocre. They aren't even his best feats, or even close. Nor do they even come close to rivaling the feats I presented, which you also neglected to address, as you've failed to address any of my points.

Tenebrous and Plagueis are not more powerful than Vader in telekinesis. In my opinion, vaders showings are much more impressive.

Then you're wrong. You clearly know nothing about Tenebrous and Plagueis to begin with, so I suggest you stop embarrassing yourself by trying to suggest Vader outclasses them in telekinetic potency. Plagueis atomizing multiple armoted targets whilst holding back, severely injured, and not even in his prime exceeds any of Vader's showings by a vast margin.

You simply have no argument, and you know it. An ad hoc denial with nothing to back it up is meaningless to me.


And if Plagueis cant ragdoll Venamis, he wont ragdoll Vader.

And if Vader can't ragdoll Luke or any of the notable Jedi he fought, then he can't even compare to Plagueis.

You see? Two people can play this game of lowballing. Now I suggest you pull your socks up and debate without the inhibitions of having the intention to lowball another character.

Present an adequate argument that at least approaches common sense and canonical veracity, and then we can debate.

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#247  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@shootingnova said:
@jedisupermaster said:

Not realy. Sidious was a genious in lightsaber combat and he proved himself to be the greatest duelist among the sith. Maybe Tenebrous and Plagueis didnt pay as much attention to their lightsaber skills as Palpatine did, or maybe he was just more talented. Tenebrous and Plagueis are great lightsaber duelists, but Vader is greater, since he has much more impressive lightsaber feats.

In other words, you will appeal to ignorance and suggest Tenebrous and Plagueis might have been simply much poorer duelists (you have no evidence for this), but instead neglect to view the inverse, because it wouldn't suit your argument? That's not how it works.

And Tenebrous enjoyed lightsaber combat. Plagueis didn't, but so what? Palpatine didn't either. But that doesn't mean Vader is more skilled than Palpatine.

Maul ran in a blur more than once, fought many opponents by himself, was faster than thought etc. And Vader fought with him as an equal. Vader was moving as if he was teleporting and fought 8 jedi at once, not some non-force sensitive beings. Plus, vader was faster than thought etc. Vader fought Dooku as an equal and Dooku fought Yoda as an equal... who fought Sidious as an equal. Do your math. Tenebrous and Plagueis are not faster than Vader.

Vader never fought Dooku as an equal (that was Anakin, who is clearly faster than Vader), and he was losing to Maul. He was slower than both of them. You don't need to be their equal in speed to be their equal in skill, anyway. And Yoda is not an equal to Dooku, he held back for the entire fight and effortlessly blocked Dooku's blows whilst Dooku tired himself out. Your ABC logic fails tremendously once you realize that Sidious and Yoda immensely outclass Vader in speed, so much so that Palpatine could speedblitz him. Your ABC dueling showings are non sequitur comments to your previous claims of Vader's speed.

Yes, I did my maths. Maul running in a blur and those other feats are mediocre. They aren't even his best feats, or even close. Nor do they even come close to rivaling the feats I presented, which you also neglected to address, as you've failed to address any of my points.

Tenebrous and Plagueis are not more powerful than Vader in telekinesis. In my opinion, vaders showings are much more impressive.

Then you're wrong. You clearly know nothing about Tenebrous and Plagueis to begin with, so I suggest you stop embarrassing yourself by trying to suggest Vader outclasses them in telekinetic potency. Plagueis atomizing multiple armoted targets whilst holding back, severely injured, and not even in his prime exceeds any of Vader's showings by a vast margin.

You simply have no argument, and you know it. An ad hoc denial with nothing to back it up is meaningless to me.


And if Plagueis cant ragdoll Venamis, he wont ragdoll Vader.

And if Vader can't ragdoll Luke or any of the notable Jedi he fought, then he can't even compare to Plagueis.

You see? Two people can play this game of lowballing. Now I suggest you pull your socks up and debate without the inhibitions of having the intention to lowball another character.

Present an adequate argument that at least approaches common sense and canonical veracity, and then we can debate.

And do you have evidence that Tenebrous and Plagueis are close to Sidious in terms of lightsaber skills? Of course you dont, because they lack feats.

It doesnt matter if Tenebrous enjoyed it or not, he wasnt as talented as Sidious. He doesnt even come close to him.

Obi Wan was fighting with Vader as an equal after 20+ years of their duel in Mustafar. I personaly think Obi Wan became stronger after that duel. Time had passed and he gained more experience and knowledge. So maybe Vader was even faster than Anakin.

BTW, werent those warriors coming to Plagueis and Sidious in waves? They didnt rush at them all at once, if i not mistake.

And that fight with Venamis... Also mediocre speed feat. Its not superior to Mauls feats, or Vaders feats.

It seems that telekinesis wont be a factor in their duel. Because Plagueis never beat force-user as powerful as Vader with TK and Vader never beat force-user as powerful as Plagueis with TK, although he crushed jedis heart.

And, by the way, Vader was so fast he seemed to teleport for another force-user - Roan Shryne. When did Anakin had such a speed he was hardly visible for jedi knights?

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The only reason I see Tenebrous as being faster, and more powerful then Vader is because his place in the Banite Sith line. Via feats, none of his speed showing or telekenetic ones surpass Vader by a large margin. Traveling at speeds less then mach 1 doesn't put him above Vader speed class...at all. Especially considering Vader can throw blows at speeds that supersedes that. Tenebrous TK feats hadly surpasses Vader's either, or people in his class for that matter.

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#249  Edited By ShootingNova
@jedisupermaster said:

And do you have evidence that Tenebrous and Plagueis are close to Sidious in terms of lightsaber skills? Of course you dont, because they lack feats.

It doesnt matter if Tenebrous enjoyed it or not, he wasnt as talented as Sidious. He doesnt even come close to him.

Obi Wan was fighting with Vader as an equal after 20+ years of their duel in Mustafar. I personaly think Obi Wan became stronger after that duel. Time had passed and he gained more experience and knowledge. So maybe Vader was even faster than Anakin.

BTW, werent those warriors coming to Plagueis and Sidious in waves? They didnt rush at them all at once, if i not mistake.

And that fight with Venamis... Also mediocre speed feat. Its not superior to Mauls feats, or Vaders feats.

It seems that telekinesis wont be a factor in their duel. Because Plagueis never beat force-user as powerful as Vader with TK and Vader never beat force-user as powerful as Plagueis with TK, although he crushed jedis heart.

And, by the way, Vader was so fast he seemed to teleport for another force-user - Roan Shryne. When did Anakin had such a speed he was hardly visible for jedi knights?

1. No, I don't. I have reasonable inference and what feats they have shown, which indicate they are very skilled, but it is difficult to determine where they are.

2. That was your argument - that they didn't like lightsaber dueling.

3. No, he didn't. Sources proved Obi-Wan slowed and got less skilled due to lack of practice. And Vader was slower as well. None of this relates to Anakin.

A generation later, Obi-Wan Kenobi would face Darth Vader once again. While Vader wanted revenge, Obi-Wan was focused on buying time for his friends - including Luke Skywalker. Their duel was careful and measured compared to their previous meeting. Obi-Wan's movements were slowed by age and lack of practice; Darth Vader - recalling the grievous injuries he suffered during their last encounter - fought his former Master with apprehension, while his cybernetic body reduced his actions. Ultimately, Obi-Wan deliberately dropped his defenses, and Darth Vader cut through him, but the Jedi Master mysteriously vanished into the Force.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

When Ben Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader on the Death Star, both combatants know they are but shadows of their former selves.

Source: Insider #62: Fightsaber

4. No, there were two hundred of them at once.

5. Well, clearly, you have some level of inhibition in relation to judging speed feats.

6. Because Plagueis was never confronted with one. Yoda has beaten virtually nobody except Ventress via TK, does that mean he couldn't beat Vader? The fact is that Plagueis is so powerful.

7. Vader has accomplished feats similar to this, but I don't recall this happening with Jedi. Also If you disagree, quote the text. The closest was surprising a Ferus Olin who didn't even expect him. And Shryne is virtually featless.

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

The only reason I see Tenebrous as being faster, and more powerful then Vader is because his place in the Banite Sith line. Via feats, none of his speed showing or telekenetic ones surpass Vader by a large margin. Traveling at speeds less then mach 1 doesn't put him above Vader speed class...at all. Especially considering Vader can throw blows at speeds that supersedes that. Tenebrous TK feats hadly surpasses Vader's either, or people in his class for that matter.

More powerful is a result of his place in the Banite line. I never claimed his telekinetic showings are superior to Vader by a large margin. I said they were on a similar level, however, his Force Speed and Barrier and implied telepathy showings do vastly exceed Vader's, and these are power feats as well.

What? How is that the speed of sound alone? Tenebrous is fast enough to nearly bowl Plagueis over, and then give Plagueis trouble to keep up. Plagueis has fought with Venamis so quickly that the residual afterglows from their lightsabers streaked across the entire forest, so much so as to create an illusion of lightning sweeping through the entire forest understory, a feat made more impressive with the realization that a forest is one of the most inhibiting environments for continual running to begin with. How in the world are Vader's speed feats of that class? Vader's running speed and agility is absolutely nil by comparison, and he is immensely outclassed in combat speed.

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#250  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

@shootingnova:

I never said you did, I was throwing a general statement out there in regards to power. Also, what telepathic power does Tenebrous have that supersede Vader creating an illusion of himself so realistic, that Luke fell for it completely and didn't break it until after Vader reached his goal?

1) Plagueis is more agile then Tenebrous, that was clearly stated in the novel, plus, IIRC - Plagueis gained power AFTER he killed Tenebrous.

2) Travel speed does not equal combat speed, plus, if they were running anywhere near as fast as Star Wars characters in Vader's level could throw blows, they would have been out of the cave in a heart beat. Tenebrous has no combat feats the surpass Vader. Fighting an army hardly equal anything, characters such as Sipder-man and Daredevil has fought hundreds of foes with out getting even an minor injury, I fail to see how that would put him above some one such as Vader.

3) After images are not really quinifiable...at all. Tell me how fast someone needs to be to create one. I could do so bi wiggling a pencel in from om my mobile device, and I'm only doing so at the speed of 2 MPH. With a glow stick, I could cover my entire face with with light if done in the right environment.