Mace Windu vs Count Dooku

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@bossmonster: This is one of these threads where both sides seem to have a predisposition for fanwanking their characters. It's funny

No, I do not. It was brought up against for 2 reasons. 1)To show the situations are extremely simular. Enough so that a person could say they are the same. 2)Because Mace would have received an amp in general. Even if it wasn't like what he got with Sidious, he would get one. That alone is enough to counter the current idea that the SIdious/Mace amp was this 1 time thing which is all I'm talking about.

No, they're not the same at all. They have interesting matches, but they are not the same.

No, it doesn't counter anything. Do you have proof that he could amp himself? The quote referring to him needing to reach deeper into the Force/Vaapad was because he was clearly holding back and not doing such, and therefore he needed to do that.

How would it counter the point? Mace's darkness at that time period was unprecedented, so yes, it was a one time point. Depa's instance has nothing to do with this.

Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. Who can say? But the novel stated clearly that he had reached and he was breaking. Nothing of that fact and be disputed. Thus, as I said above giving more credit the idea that there is more than one way for Mace to get a amp to his power. Maybe not as powerful as with Sidious, but an amp regardless.

No, it's not "maybe it did", it did. That's really just it. The two breaking points are entirely different instances.

How does it not?

Because Vaapad wasn't mentioned as being a cause or even an influence in her amplification?

Dude, how can you say that they are not related? From that quote they clearly are. If Mace chooses to give himself to Vaapad, he will be able to draw more power just Depa was doing. That is what it has to do with him making a choice to Amp himself.

That was because Mace hadn't been fully giving himself to Vaapad, which was clear. Depa was not restraining herself from giving herself to Vaapad, unlike Mace

And in doing so, Mace would become more powerful as a result. He had the choice is my point.

I've scanned over the fight a few times and cannot find this passage. Do you mind posing it for me? I see no where that says he needed to not hold back to win. In fact, take this for example:

1. Yes, more powerful than his holding back incarnation.

2. I don't know how on earth you could read the entire fight and not find the novel clearly indicating that Mace was not giving it his all.

We that's not true. Mace say that Depa was better at Vaapad than He was while stating that Sora was Mastered By the style. Having never Mastered the style, it make sense. Also.

Shatterpoint is the best source for info on Vaapad given it told by Mace and we get his thoughts on it as its creator. He says very playing that the style is immersed in the force. And that's not hyperbole given that we know it has direct physical side effects on it's user. Even here we have more to say that the proper use of Vaapad will increase a persons power.

Your quote says nothing about directly using the dark side, so the source I mentioned remains correct.

Mace said Sora was mastered by the style because Sora fell to the dark side and lost control of himself. That's precisely what happened to Depa as well.

Does it have to? I remember you being a a supporter of the Blog Silver did on Windu and Sidious. So, lets take a point from him. As I said before, my point is to prove exactly how much a like these to situations are. (Those being Windu's fight with Sidious and is fight with Depa) This is a quote from Silver.

and another

So, I'll ask again, does the novel need to say "Vaapad was the reason!" I don't think so. We already know what Vaapad is capable off. When on add on the fact that there is a backflow of dark force coming though them from the deaths caused by the war raging around them is going to increase the darkness that already exists in them. I pointed this out in a quote above were Mace explains how dangerous the use of Vaapad is due to the dark nature of the world he was on.

I know about these quotes, because I've read the novel. It explicitly mentions how Mace had sunken into Vaapad for life and how it was granting him all these things. By contrast, Depa was stated as being amped by pelekotan backflow which was caused by the deaths of nearby guards, whereas her choosing to use Vaapad more was never mentioned as being the cause of her amplification, and even if it was due to Vaapad's mechanics, which it could be, it still doesn't matter because she required the backflow which was caused by the deaths of nearby Akk guards. There are no nearby people here to die for Mace to amp himself.

So what is the point of making that statement in the novel when it's something that is already a known ability of the style. This is basically an argument of silence.

Not at all. We're already given another reason for the amplification, yet you want to change the reason without substance? That doesn't happen.

As I have said, there is enough evidence here to suggest that Depa and Mace were both capable of amping themselves during this fight and that Mace did not because he did not want to kill Depa. If this is true than it is true at Mace can use Vaapad to amp himself.

If that happened, then Mace should have just been able to amp himself against Grievous and beat him in a direct duel. But he failed to do that in LoE, which took place after Shatterpoint, and he clearly resorted to utilizing the Force out of disinterest for further dueling.

We were given another explanation already, so why would you need to distort the instance to support your point?

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Push said:

"I know alot of people will say "the emperor feigned/let himself be in that position, but until it's actually shown/proven, then it's just opinion."

I hate when people say that. They ride that statement as if it's truth, but there's nothing in the movie that proves this. Mace would have killed him if Anakin didn't interfere. Before his arrival, he was already winning.

Yup, I totally and completely agree with this. People should just accept what they see in the movie and what Lucas wants the audience to believe instead of nitpicking good guy's feats whenever they beat a bad guy more powerful than himself

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I laughed at Dooku one-shotting as well.

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@shootingnova: A fair amount of hate to, but I guess that's the way the world balances things. Nothing for it in my opinion.

No, it doesn't counter anything. Do you have proof that he could amp himself? The quote referring to him needing to reach deeper into the Force/Vaapad was because he was clearly holding back and not doing such, and therefore he needed to do that.

How would it counter the point? Mace's darkness at that time period was unprecedented, so yes, it was a one time point. Depa's instance has nothing to do with this.

Do you have proof that he couldn't? We could both shift the burden of proof and nothing would get solved. I already posted before, Mace could have killed her in his opening move of the fight. He did not want her death. She was becoming too strong to defeat without killing. So it makes not sense to say that he was holding back just because he did not want to kill her. If you don't want to accept that Depa overwheling him like a child and being faster than him on a number of exchanges,then I don't know what to tell you. But saying he was holding back doesn't mean he was. So what proof do you have that he was? Not taking the killing blow is not indicative of holding back if your goal is such.

No, it's not "maybe it did", it did. That's really just it. The two breaking points are entirely different instances.

Which is moot. Mace can be broken in more than one way. If that is a factor in him getting an amp, there is more than one way for him to get an amp.

Because Vaapad wasn't mentioned as being a cause or even an influence in her amplification?

It is a side effect of the Force immersion of Vaapad. My style grants great power, but at a terrible risk. Blood fever is a disease that can kill anyone it touches. To use Vaapad, you must allow yourself to enjoy the fight. You give yourself to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning.

This is why so few students even attempt the style.

Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.

Here in the jungle, that shadow fringe is unexpectedly shallow. Full night is only a step away.

I must be very, very careful here.

Or I may come to understand what's happened to Depa all too well.

Mace lowered his head. The electric sizzle of combat drained from his limbs, leaving them heavy and hurting: he had a variety of superficial burns from plasma splatter and splinters of half- molten rock.

Source:Shatterpoint

He Mace explains the effect that Vaapad has when used in a place of darkness. How it makes you stronger. How it can turn you to the darkside. How it happened to Depa. There is you source for Vaapad being part of the reason she is now stronger.

That was because Mace hadn't been fully giving himself to Vaapad, which was clear. Depa was not restraining herself from giving herself to Vaapad, unlike Mace

So, you're making my point in saying that Mace would be stronger if he gave in to Vaapad? So we've come to terms then right?

1. Yes, more powerful than his holding back incarnation.

2. I don't know how on earth you could read the entire fight and not find the novel clearly indicating that Mace was not giving it his all.

If he was holding back, she would have killed him given that Mace himself said her skills with Vaapad exceeded his. What are you calling holding back? That he didn't kill her? Then yes, he was holding back. But then that really contradicts the fight he had with Ventress right(Not that I'm trying to jump into that) Clearly he wasn't trying to kill her, but said that he would. Yet, once source says it took all his skill. But how does that make since if not using the killing blow means holding back? So, how was Mace holding back in this fight with Depa. I've already posted to show that he wasn't. You've given nothing to show that he was.

Your quote says nothing about directly using the dark side, so the source I mentioned remains correct.

Mace said Sora was mastered by the style because Sora fell to the dark side and lost control of himself. That's precisely what happened to Depa as well.

I've already addressed the darkside bit above. Yet, Mace not only never said that about Depa(as far as I know) but what he did say about her was that she was unbeatable in Single combat and that her skill with Vaapad was beyond his. So, you have not given anything to say she was not a Master of the style while you have supplied info to suggest that Sora was not. Also, wasn't he already beaten by Vos and Windu? I'm not sure why he's even being brought up.

I know about these quotes, because I've read the novel. It explicitly mentions how Mace had sunken into Vaapad for life and how it was granting him all these things. By contrast, Depa was stated as being amped by pelekotan backflow which was caused by the deaths of nearby guards, whereas her choosing to use Vaapad more was never mentioned as being the cause of her amplification, and even if it was due to Vaapad's mechanics, which it could be, it still doesn't matter because she required the backflow which was caused by the deaths of nearby Akk guards. There are no nearby people here to die for Mace to amp himself.

You admit that Vaapad could be a reason. Awesome. At least that is out there. Now to the other aspect of what you said. I've already posted a quote from Shatterpoint above in regard to Vaapad drawing on the darkness of the area around Windu. He makes it clear that just being on the planet makes him stronger but is risky. This is relevent because Vaapad is at work even then. The novel doesn't need to say "Vaapad is working and making Depa stronger" Given that it's been establish a number of times that is part of the styles Mechanics. Backflow or not. Windu already recieved and amp before in Shatterpoint just by fighting. It may not have been major, but it was there. Depa's was more powerful due to the backflow. It matters greatly. Rather or not it can be done here is up for another debate, but as I have said before, I'm establishing here that it can be done in more than one way. The current idea is that the amp is a one time thing that can't be done at well. I'm saying this is not true given that.

  1. Windu gets a small amp while fighting just by being on the Planet and drawing in enough darkside force.(Source quote above)
  2. Depa channel the backflow through Vaapad(which is what it does) and gets an amp.
  3. Windu states out right that he could do the same by giving into Vaapad and Pelektan(which is just a word for The Force)
  4. Windu did it while fighting Sidious.

This is not some one time thing. Maybe the the extreme of the fight with Sidious was, but the amp itself is very possible in other instances.

Not at all. We're already given another reason for the amplification, yet you want to change the reason without substance? That doesn't happen.

I've got plenty of substance, I've posted it a number of times. The novel itself states earlier that Vaapad channels energy and gives the user great power. That has already been established. By ignoring this, you can say my claim has no substance, but I've made it very clear.

If that happened, then Mace should have just been able to amp himself against Grievous and beat him in a direct duel. But he failed to do that in LoE, which took place after Shatterpoint, and he clearly resorted to utilizing the Force out of disinterest for further dueling.

We were given another explanation already, so why would you need to distort the instance to support your point?

So you're argument here is that because he did not do it, he could not do it. Because it did not happen, it could not happen? It's Generally accepted Yoda is far more powerful than most people in the force. Even Sidious was not able to resist his TK. When he and Dooku fought, Yoda should have been able to just to rag doll him around, given his ability to stop and avalanche as you once told me when comparing his TK to Windu's TK. But since he did not do this, I can therefore assume that he could not do this and Yoda is unable to use TK against Dooku?

Remember, Windu was the one the crushed Grievous' chest. He didn't have to seriously focus to do this. He did it with a sudden out stretched hand. But he did not do this while fighting in their first encounter. Does that mean that he couldn't not do it?

Ventress is known to have pretty powerful TK, but didn't use it in the battle with WIndu. When he first arrived she expressed how above all, she wanted to kill him the most, then quickly ran away without even attempting to use the TK. Does this mean that she could not use it against him?

So, I don't see that I have distorted anything. This seems like a conformation of bias on your part. I've sited a number of thing from different points that all support my point. You haven't actually disproved them, only told me they aren't true.

  1. I told you that Shatterpoint states early in the novel that using the style increasing the users power. He states that Haruun Kal is already bringing him to the fatal brink through force immersion.
  2. With the above in mind, I said that Depa channel the backflow to further increase her power.
  3. I stated that Windu had the same option as Depa and decided not to take it.
  4. I supplied Source quotes for the above.

How am I distorting this information?

Here is the reality of it all as far as I can see. Dooku and Windu are extremely close in abilities, if not equal. As you have said. So only the smallest things will set them apart. If Windu can turn things like Force lightning back on Dooku or accept his force enhanced attacks and draw power from them, that will give him an edge that Dooku may not be able to over come.

But we can only debate that idea if we establish that Windu can in fact amp himself. And while the popular opinion is that he could only do this against Sidious, I've already posted a times where he's done it before. But I'll save that Dooku/Windu debate for a bit later.

Windu has shown that he can Amp himself outside of the Sidious fight. If that is agreed on, it can be argued then if it is note worthy in this fight.

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#108  Edited By ShootingNova

@bossmonster:

Do you have proof that he couldn't? We could both shift the burden of proof and nothing would get solved. I already posted before, Mace could have killed her in his opening move of the fight. He did not want her death. She was becoming too strong to defeat without killing. So it makes not sense to say that he was holding back just because he did not want to kill her. If you don't want to accept that Depa overwheling him like a child and being faster than him on a number of exchanges,then I don't know what to tell you. But saying he was holding back doesn't mean he was. So what proof do you have that he was? Not taking the killing blow is not indicative of holding back if your goal is such.

Don't be ridiculous. Nobody has to prove a negative. If something is proposed, it simply has to be proved. There is no shifting it to somebody else to prove that somebody couldn't do this or that.

As for why he was holding back, because the novel said he refused to strike back, and Form VII is a particularly offensive form.

Which is moot. Mace can be broken in more than one way. If that is a factor in him getting an amp, there is more than one way for him to get an amp.

If there's a difference in the nature of "breaking", then the end result would certainly be different.

It could just as easily be confined to a specific way of breaking as your proposal of the amp coming in multiple forms.

He Mace explains the effect that Vaapad has when used in a place of darkness. How it makes you stronger. How it can turn you to the darkside. How it happened to Depa. There is you source for Vaapad being part of the reason she is now stronger.

All that shows is that Depa was conquered by Vaapad and fell to the dark side. It has nothing to do with the fight, and it might even imply that the place was a dark side nexus.

So, you're making my point in saying that Mace would be stronger if he gave in to Vaapad? So we've come to terms then right?

No, he could have been stronger than his current state, which involved his holding back. If he was holding back, then it would make perfect sense that he would become stronger if he chose to give himself more into Vaapad, because he hadn't fully devoted himself to Vaapad yet, or at least the text strongly implies such.

No, we haven't come to terms.

If he was holding back, she would have killed him given that Mace himself said her skills with Vaapad exceeded his. What are you calling holding back? That he didn't kill her? Then yes, he was holding back. But then that really contradicts the fight he had with Ventress right(Not that I'm trying to jump into that) Clearly he wasn't trying to kill her, but said that he would. Yet, once source says it took all his skill. But how does that make since if not using the killing blow means holding back? So, how was Mace holding back in this fight with Depa. I've already posted to show that he wasn't. You've given nothing to show that he was.

Mace is shown by objective sources to be more skilled than Depa, and Mace's mastery of Vaapad is shown in sources to be better as a whole as well. Mace simply has a tendency to praise those that he respects. He considered himself a mere padawan before Yoda, even though objective sources have placed them on a similar tier in fighting skill, claimed that Anakin could be the most powerful of all the Jedi, etc.

What does Ventress have to do with this? Mace fought offensively in that duel as well, whereas he refused to strike back against Depa, and only defended himself. That is analogous to how Mace fought evenly with Quinlan Vos once because Mace fought only defensively, unless you're also claiming that Quinlan exceeds Mace as a duelist. Form VII is a notoriously offensive form, and Depa was doing just that, whereas Mace was doing the opposite.

You've said nothing that irrefutably proves Mace was going all-out.

I've already addressed the darkside bit above. Yet, Mace not only never said that about Depa(as far as I know) but what he did say about her was that she was unbeatable in Single combat and that her skill with Vaapad was beyond his. So, you have not given anything to say she was not a Master of the style while you have supplied info to suggest that Sora was not. Also, wasn't he already beaten by Vos and Windu? I'm not sure why he's even being brought up.

Mace claiming that Depa is unbeatable in single combat is hyperbole, just as Kreia claimed that Tulak Hord and the ancient Sith Lords would mop the floor with newer generations. We already know Yoda is the single best swordsman in the Order, and if anything, he would be the one that nobody can beat in single combat.

Sora was beating Vos, and lost due to circumstantial factors I discussed here, and Sora was about even with Mace for their duel, before Mace used the Force to hurl him and then ran away to fight Ventress. He's being brought up because he entirely fell to the dark side, yet never received amplifications of any sort.

You admit that Vaapad could be a reason. Awesome. At least that is out there. Now to the other aspect of what you said. I've already posted a quote from Shatterpoint above in regard to Vaapad drawing on the darkness of the area around Windu. He makes it clear that just being on the planet makes him stronger but is risky. This is relevent because Vaapad is at work even then. The novel doesn't need to say "Vaapad is working and making Depa stronger" Given that it's been establish a number of times that is part of the styles Mechanics. Backflow or not. Windu already recieved and amp before in Shatterpoint just by fighting. It may not have been major, but it was there. Depa's was more powerful due to the backflow. It matters greatly. Rather or not it can be done here is up for another debate, but as I have said before, I'm establishing here that it can be done in more than one way. The current idea is that the amp is a one time thing that can't be done at well. I'm saying this is not true given that.

  1. Windu gets a small amp while fighting just by being on the Planet and drawing in enough darkside force.(Source quote above)
  2. Depa channel the backflow through Vaapad(which is what it does) and gets an amp.
  3. Windu states out right that he could do the same by giving into Vaapad and Pelektan(which is just a word for The Force)
  4. Windu did it while fighting Sidious.

This is not some one time thing. Maybe the the extreme of the fight with Sidious was, but the amp itself is very possible in other instances.

If you meant this:

Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.

Then no, that doesn't show Mace can draw on nearby darkness. It just says that Vaapad is a path leading through the dark side, not that it uses the dark side, and Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force claims that it only comes dangerously close to the dark side, not that it uses the dark side itself.

The fact that the backflow was caused entirely due to the deaths of external fighters not present in this fight, which you failed to address, more or less completely nullifies this.

Additionally, the nature of the amplification we're discussing is different from the one Mace received against Palpatine, so you can't leap from 3 to 4 in that manner.

Again, Mace claimed that he could become stronger by giving into Vaapad because he hadn't fully devoted himself to Vaapad, because he was holding back against Depa. We already have sources to confirm that Mace is a better swordsman, and these are objective sources of a higher canonical ranking.

I've got plenty of substance, I've posted it a number of times. The novel itself states earlier that Vaapad channels energy and gives the user great power. That has already been established. By ignoring this, you can say my claim has no substance, but I've made it very clear.

Posting it ad nauseam doesn't give it any more substance at all.

So you're argument here is that because he did not do it, he could not do it. Because it did not happen, it could not happen? It's Generally accepted Yoda is far more powerful than most people in the force. Even Sidious was not able to resist his TK. When he and Dooku fought, Yoda should have been able to just to rag doll him around, given his ability to stop and avalanche as you once told me when comparing his TK to Windu's TK. But since he did not do this, I can therefore assume that he could not do this and Yoda is unable to use TK against Dooku?

Maybe because Yoda was explicitly stated as not wanting to hurt Dooku? So what if Sidious was sent flying once? You don't have to be more powerful than somebody to simply TK them, and no, Yoda wouldn't simply ragdoll Tyranus with the Force. Yoda never stopped an avalanche. He caused one.

Mace made his intentions clear in Obsession and the OCW series that he wanted to end Grievous. He had his perfect opportunity there, but he became disinterested in the duel and decided to BFR Grievous instead. He had every reason and opportunity to amp himself in the same way that you described, but he never did so every single time. Against Sora, or Dooku, or Grievous, or whoever else he fought. This isn't a matter of him not being able to do it because he never showed it, it's a matter of him being in perfect scenarios where he had every reason and opportunity (if not necessity) to be amplifying himself in that nature, but not doing so. That particularly shows to us that Mace can't simply amplify himself whenever he wants to. The only time it was even ever mentioned was in the dubious context of Shatterpoint, when Mace was already holding back against Depa by refusing to strike back.

And all those examples make it perfectly clear - this entire argument is moot. Whether or not Mace could even amplify himself is irrelevant because he won't. As he never did against Sora, or against Depa, or against Kar Vastor, or against Dooku, or against Ventress, or Grievous, or every single opponent he ever fought sans Palpatine, which was in extreme circumstances not applicable here.

Remember, Windu was the one the crushed Grievous' chest. He didn't have to seriously focus to do this. He did it with a sudden out stretched hand. But he did not do this while fighting in their first encounter. Does that mean that he couldn't not do it?

LOL. Mace using the Force to Crush Vaapad =/= Mace using Vaapad to amp himself. What in the world do the two have in relation to each other? And why in the world is it always being brought up whenever somebody discusses Mace's duel with him in LoE?

Ventress is known to have pretty powerful TK, but didn't use it in the battle with WIndu. When he first arrived she expressed how above all, she wanted to kill him the most, then quickly ran away without even attempting to use the TK. Does this mean that she could not use it against him?

LOL. Mace is more powerful than Ventress.

Why don't you stop conjuring up examples that don't even relate to what we're discussing, and start answering my question. Tell me why Mace would refuse to amp himself in duels that hold the fate of the galaxy in the balance. Because I can give you a reason as to why the characters didn't do what they did in each of your examples. Yoda didn't want to hurt Dooku and only wanted to capture him, Mace never Crushed Grievous because he didn't have time to exert effort or focus to do so, and Ventress was less powerful than Mace, so wasting her time utilizing Force powers make no sense, especially when the relentlessness of Mace's assault is more than likely to have prevented her from having any change to use telekinetic attacks anyway.

So, I don't see that I have distorted anything. This seems like a conformation of bias on your part. I've sited a number of thing from different points that all support my point. You haven't actually disproved them, only told me they aren't true.

Au contraire. None of it supports your point. You're making it seem as if it does, but I have the following to negate your claims. Also, LOL at confirmation bias. I could just as easily turn that on you, given how often you debate for Mace, whereas I've debated for and against both these characters before. Me having a confirmation bias because I disagree with you is funny and easily reversible.

You brought up how Mace claimed Depa was unbeatable in single combat and was better than he was in using Vaapad, all of which is diluted by the fact that it's subjective and Mace has a tendency to overly praise those he respects. I have objective sources claiming that Mace is better than Depa.

http://web.archive.org/web/20051125042817/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5m2yIAxeBHA

(5:28 - 5:35):

"We have not seen Mace fight yet, and we know he's second only to Yoda."

I have this for Mace holding back:

Still he did not strike back.

Source: Shatterpoint

At no point in the duel did Mace ever strike back. Form VII is a naturally aggressive form, not a defensive form, and in duels where Mace fought defensively only, as with Quinlan Vos, he was clearly holding back.

Here is the reality of it all as far as I can see. Dooku and Windu are extremely close in abilities, if not equal. As you have said. So only the smallest things will set them apart. If Windu can turn things like Force lightning back on Dooku or accept his force enhanced attacks and draw power from them, that will give him an edge that Dooku may not be able to over come.

Mace has never shown the ability to turn Lightning back. He only did that in RotS when he was monumentally amped, and at best he would be able to catch it on his blade or dodge it.

Mace has never shown the ability to draw power from his opponent's Force attacks either. That's precisely why Sora managed to TK him into a wall.

Dooku is also faster than Mace, by virtue of being faster than Obi-Wan, who rivals Mace in speed. Whether or not this would be of use is questionable but it is there.

But we can only debate that idea if we establish that Windu can in fact amp himself. And while the popular opinion is that he could only do this against Sidious, I've already posted a times where he's done it before. But I'll save that Dooku/Windu debate for a bit later.

Mace exclusively being able to amp himself (in any way) against Sidious was never brought up. Mace exclusively being able to amp himself against Sidious to the same extent and in the same nature certainly is the case.

Windu has shown that he can Amp himself outside of the Sidious fight. If that is agreed on, it can be argued then if it is note worthy in this fight.

No, he showed that he could elevate himself to a natural fighting level because he was holding back. If he could just amp himself at will, the idea that he wouldn't do so in situations that would have changed the outcome of the war is ludicrous. So no, he can't.

That doesn't need to be discussed. The fact that it has literally never surfaced in any single EU duel Mace had sans the one on Coruscant against Palpatine (which has its own set of circumstances) is clear proof of the fact that it won't be of use in this fight.

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WollfMyth209

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This isn't gonna be an even split. Dooku is faster, more powerful and slightly more skilled. Mace is only stronger really and comparable, or equal in skill. Dooku wins 6-7/10.

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NinjaWarrior268

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#110  Edited By NinjaWarrior268
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FirestormFate1919

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Mace wins with superior light saber skill. Also vapaad will counter tha advantageous force lightning

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Bossmonster

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okayalright_44

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This isn't gonna be an even split. Dooku is faster, more powerful and slightly more skilled. Mace is only stronger really and comparable, or equal in skill. Dooku wins 6-7/10.

good job. If I didn't see your post as one of the ones made within the last 5; I was going to hang myself.

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GXrevolution96

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#116  Edited By GXrevolution96

Dooku lighting blitzes Windu

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ShootingNova

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@bossmonster: I really don't care either way. You can drop the issue and agree to disagree if you want, or you can reignite the debate. As it appears, it's mostly a difference in how we view the texts, if anything.

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Bossmonster

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@shootingnova: I agree that it comes down to us viewing the text differently.

However, as I have said before, I respect you as a in debate. So, I wanted to see if I could change your opinion. Kind of a pride thing. If I can't, oh well. I think I gave a fairly good effort over all. It was worth doing to see how well I could do.

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ShootingNova

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@bossmonster: Fair enough, and I respect that. Both of us appear to be extremely adamant, though, so I doubt either of us could change the others' opinion, but by all means, if you want to continue, then go ahead.

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@shootingnova: Well, you often have fair points and I have nothing going on right now. So why not. Maybe I'll get lucky. I think this will mark the third time I've tried to change you mind on this. I'll throw myself a small party if I do.

I was going to go back and do a point by point, but I think that certain things are leading up off track. So, I'll address the most valid and leave others in the past. Like:

As for why he was holding back, because the novel said he refused to strike back, and Form VII is a particularly offensive form.

Consider this: I want to open a Jar, but the lid is one tight. I could just smash the jar but I want the content inside to stay clean. By not smashing it, am I holding back? Mace did not want her death. In his opening move, he could have killed her easily, but that is not want he wanted.

If there's a difference in the nature of "breaking", then the end result would certainly be different.

It could just as easily be confined to a specific way of breaking as your proposal of the amp coming in multiple forms.

Ok, that's fair. But as you said they are both possible and that is my first point. It is possible. I believe I have posted thing that confirm it has happened. I'll come back to this.

You've said nothing that irrefutably proves Mace was going all-out.

Again, I think you are not considering the context of the situation. Depa is suggested to be far more powerful at this point. Drawing on the force as they fight. Mace clearly did not want her died. It is suggested that

the only way to stop her in the dual is to kill her. Considered early parts of their dual:

He brought his blade back up from the pit and turned his wrist on the forehand so that his recovery stroke took her in the temple with his lightsaber's butt. Her fingers slipped off the blade's activation plate and it shrank back down through his body. She howled and punched his eyesocket with her free hand, but Mace got his foot wedged between them and he shoved her away with a powerful thrust.

At the same instant both of them backflipped into the air, landing on their feet poised in perfect mirror images, their blades whipping in identically curving slashes almost too fast to see.

Source:Shatterpoint.

First thing to note: If Mace wanted her dead he could have killed her right then. It states clearly he butted her in the head instead of impaling her skull.

Second thing, they are exchanging blow. Mace did attack her in this fight. Then:

His blade whirred through the air.

Hers whirred faster. She advanced.

The slashes never stopped. They would never stop. They flowed one into the next with liquid precision.

This constant near-invisible weave of lethal energy is the ready-stance of Vaapad.

Source: Shatterpoint

They are both moving at a pace where they blades are nearly invisible but it states that Depa is just faster.

Mace backpedaled, parrying frantically, absorbing the shock of her attacks with bent arms and a two-handed grip. He was taller than she, with more reach and weight, and vastly more muscle in his upper body, but she drove him backward as though he were a child. Green flame struck through his

guard, and only a frantic jerk of his head turned what would have been a brain-burning thrust into a line of char along his cheekbone.

Still he did not strike back.

'I will not kill you," he said. "Death is not the answer to your pain." Her reply was a scream louder and more savage and an onslaught to match. She broke through his guard again and scorched his wrist. Another stroke burned a slice through his pants leg just above the knee.

Source: Shatterpoint

Again, we see that Depa is proving Stronger than Mace also at this point. But it's very clear that she wants to die. She wants Mace to kill her. She doesn't want to give him a choice the matter so she is throwing everything at him with compete disregard. My proof that Mace was giving it his all is simple. He wanted to win this fight without ending her life and couldn't figure that out until the very end of it all. I believe fully that Mace could not simply over power and subdue her. At this point she was too strong, too fast and too powerful.

If you meant this:

***Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.***

Then no, that doesn't show Mace can draw on nearby darkness. It just says that Vaapad is a path leading through the dark side, not that it uses the dark side, and Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force claims that it only comes dangerously close to the dark side, not that it uses the dark side itself.

The fact that the backflow was caused entirely due to the deaths of external fighters not present in this fight, which you failed to address, more or less completely nullifies this.

Additionally, the nature of the amplification we're discussing is different from the one Mace received against Palpatine, so you can't leap from 3 to 4 in that manner.

Again, Mace claimed that he could become stronger by giving into Vaapad because he hadn't fully devoted himself to Vaapad, because he was holding back against Depa. We already have sources to confirm that Mace is a better swordsman, and these are objective sources of a higher canonical ranking.

The quote I was talking about was:

It is a side effect of the Force immersion of Vaapad. My style grants great power, but at a terrible risk.

Mace was question on how he was able to stand against the coordinated gun fire of 3 gunships. Prior to it happening his states that he would give the gunships a lesson on Vaapad. That was my #1 from the previous quote.

In regards to #2, my point is not that it can happen here in this battle but that it has happened outside of the popularlly believed exclusive battle of Windu/Sidious. The point being that it has happened on more than 1 occasion and under different circumstances. I am challenging and disproving that the amp can only be done in one way(Not to the same level of power, but to simply occur)

The nature of the amp being different is my point, though fundamentally I think they are very much the same. Windu/Sidious Backflow of Force put out by Sidious. Windu/Depa backflow of force from people dying coming to them.

The holding back issue seems to be your and my second biggest point of contention. If Windu wanted her died, he would have killed her, but he did not and she was too strong to incapacitate

LOL. Mace using the Force to Crush Vaapad =/= Mace using Vaapad to amp himself. What in the world do the two have in relation to each other? And why in the world is it always being brought up whenever somebody discusses Mace's duel with him in LoE?

I honestly do respect you in debate, but this is a WTF moment for me as I really think my point is obvious and I don't even understand how this type of response. But I'm going to assume I typed poorly and didn't express myself right. So, here is the answer to "What in the world do the two have in relation to each other.

First: I never implied that they were equal. Never.

Second:

As he never did against Sora, or against Depa, or against Kar Vastor, or against Dooku, or against Ventress, or Grievous, or every single opponent he ever fought sans Palpatine

.He also never used Force Crush against them either. You are using the fact that because he never used his amp in those fights that he can not do so. What I'm saying is by that logic, he also can not use Force Crush. Even though we know that he could have certainly done so given that he TK'ed Sora and Kar Vastor. Since he did not, he could not, right?

This doesn't even being to address the context of each fight. Mace told Sora he was not the real fight and left. Did not want to kill him.

Mace repeatedly states he didn't want to kill Depa. Mace was playing Kar Vastor in their first fight and kills him with almost no effort in the second encounter. Mace beat Ventress down and she ran and again he states that he wants her alive. Mace has used the amp that I have pointed out twice. And both times when he knew he couldn't escape and was willing to kill the other person. But if him not using it in all the others is evidence that he could not, then the same should be true of Force Crush.(Which would be down right foolish.)

LOL. Mace is more powerful than Ventress.

Why don't you stop conjuring up examples that don't even relate to what we're discussing, and start answering my question. Tell me why Mace would refuse to amp himself in duels that hold the fate of the galaxy in the balance. Because I can give you a reason as to why the characters didn't do what they did in each of your examples. Yoda didn't want to hurt Dooku and only wanted to capture him, Mace never Crushed Grievous because he didn't have time to exert effort or focus to do so, and Ventress was less powerful than Mace, so wasting her time utilizing Force powers make no sense, especially when the relentlessness of Mace's assault is more than likely to have prevented her from having any change to use telekinetic attacks anyway.

So, I was going to skip this one because I think it leads us off track. However, that wouldn't be fair as you did directly as me to address your claims. So, I will do so.

Are you sayings that his battle with Sora/Venress/Kar Vastor/Depa also held the fate of the Galaxy?

Anyway. I am going to say that he didn't use him amp likely for the same reasons he didn't use Force Crush or outside interference. Lets go down the list of people you brought up.

Grievious: What do you mean, he never had a change to use Force Crush? He T.K'd him away. Considered:

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That's not some extreme effort. He threw his hand forward and bared his teeth. Compared to

Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep.Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell, Mace trying to track the general's contorted plunge, but unsuccessfully.

Source: Labyrinth of Evil

That shows no more effort on Mace's part. He had the chance to Force Crush and didn't. He had the chance to Amp and didn't. The Amp seems to only be viable in the face of a strong force user or a place very strong in the force. but lets keep going. Not only that, Mace seems to need to give in to Vaapad and thus desire to kill that person. He's stated this a number of times.

Ventress:

Now, you even admit freely that Ventress is less powerful than Mace.Why would he amp himself here? He overwhelmed her instantly. She states clearly that she wants the battle. Wants him dead above all others and has wanted this. Yet after testing his power, she runs away. Now, I imagine that Mace could have amped himself, Blizted her and cut her to pieces or Force Crushed her while she was jumping and let that and the fall killer her. But Mace says he wants her alive. He doesn't want to kill her, thus he doesn't Force Crush or amp himself.

Kar Vastor: As I said before, Mace played him the entire first fight. He states clearly that he picked the fight without his lightsaber because he knew he couldn't win it that way and he would make it easier to trick him later. Moreover, Mace later kills him with almost no effort at all. However, Mace could not have finished his mission if he killed Kar in the first fight with Force Crush and there was no need to amp himself for a dual when killing him took little effort.

Dooku:

Mace was jumped mid fight here. Outside Forces. However, Mace could have Force Crushed him right from the start while Dooku was unprepared. Why didn't he? Nothing was stopping him and has you say you don't have to be more powerful to us TK on someone. So, can Mace just not use Force Crush?

Sora

I often feel like you think I believe that if Mace gets an amp he'll be just as strong has when he fought Sidious. I do not believe this. The amp has proven itself relative to the force power it is drawn from. Like how Mace matched sidious. Or Depa over powered mace. Or Mace was easily able to take down 3 gunships that were about to kill him. Anyway. We see here that Mace battles a bit before seeing he needs to leave because Sora is basically just a distraction. A wave of his hand TK's him into a wall. Knowing that he needs to be somewhere else, why would he amp himself to dual longer when TK would do the job of getting him away. Again, he doesn't seem to want Sora dead. But if he did, that TK blast could have easily been Force Crush. Why didn't he just kill him there?

There. I believe I addressed all the battles you brought up. But as I said, by your logic he can't use Force Crush in any of these fights. Is that what you are saying?

At no point in the duel did Mace ever strike back. Form VII is a naturally aggressive form, not a defensive form, and in duels where Mace fought defensively only, as with Quinlan Vos, he was clearly holding back.

I pointed out where Mace did attack Depa and could have easily killed her but made the choice not to do so because he didn't want her dead and she was trying to force him to kill her.

Mace has never shown the ability to turn Lightning back. He only did that in RotS when he was monumentally amped, and at best he would be able to catch it on his blade or dodge it.

Mace has never shown the ability to draw power from his opponent's Force attacks either. That's precisely why Sora managed to TK him into a wall.

Dooku is also faster than Mace, by virtue of being faster than Obi-Wan, who rivals Mace in speed. Whether or not this would be of use is questionable but it is there.

I don't know if Mace can amp himself of Dooku. In the event that he can, I don't see why he would not redirect the lightning. However I don't recall anyone else ever using Lighting against Windu.

Instead of resisting or grounding the power of Vastor's Force grip, Mace added his own strength to it.

The speed of his flight suddenly doubled; Vastor had only time to widen his eyes in dismay as Mace flipped headfirst in the air. The top of his head speared into Vastor's gut and drove the lor pelek to the ground as though he'd been hit by a concussion missile.

Source: Shattterpoint

I was implying that Mace has shown, like with the lightning, he can let the power flow through him and use it to his advantage.

If Dooku is faster, he is faster. I can accept this.

Mace exclusively being able to amp himself (in any way) against Sidious was never brought up. Mace exclusively being able to amp himself against Sidious to the same extent and in the same nature certainly is the case

I don't know what you are saying here. Sorry.

No, he showed that he could elevate himself to a natural fighting level because he was holding back. If he could just amp himself at will, the idea that he wouldn't do so in situations that would have changed the outcome of the war is ludicrous. So no, he can't.

I don't understand why you say this when

  1. Shatterpoint makes it very clear that he could have given into Vaapad and the Backflow just as Depa dead. No, he didn't amp himself, but clearly the option is there.
  2. Mace does amp himself to not get gun down by the three gunships. He later explains that he was suffering the side effects from do this. I posted that above.
  3. Depa clearly amps herself the the use of Vaapad and the backflow. Again, showing that the option is there and not something that only would take place in the fight against Sidious. And no I'm not saying she was as strong as Mace was when he did it nor am I saying Mace would have become just as strong as the amp he got from Sidious. I'm only saying she did and he could have received and increase in power.
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Helicoprion

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Mace

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PabloSL

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Mace for sure

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Jacthripper

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IMO it all depends on the environment, if it's an area that's open, Dooku will win as it favors his dueling style, if they fight on rough terrain, Windu should win due to being more agile and physically powerful.

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ShootingNova

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@bossmonster:

Consider this: I want to open a Jar, but the lid is one tight. I could just smash the jar but I want the content inside to stay clean. By not smashing it, am I holding back? Mace did not want her death. In his opening move, he could have killed her easily, but that is not want he wanted.

The second part of this has nothing to do with my point.

As for your analogy, to an extent, yes. If you don't smash it, then you're implying that you would be using other, less violent means of opening a jar. Even if you tried as hard as you could, you would probably instinctively use less of your strength than if you just smashed it without needing to care about the contents. The fact that you do care about the contents means that you would probably subconsciously restrain yourself very slightly.

Again, I think you are not considering the context of the situation. Depa is suggested to be far more powerful at this point. Drawing on the force as they fight. Mace clearly did not want her died. It is suggested that

the only way to stop her in the dual is to kill her. Considered early parts of their dual:

Of course Mace didn't want her dead. And he refused to strike back as well, which is indicative of holding back, because striking back is a near-necessity for Form VII.

First thing to note: If Mace wanted her dead he could have killed her right then. It states clearly he butted her in the head instead of impaling her skull

Second thing, they are exchanging blow. Mace did attack her in this fight. Then:

They are both moving at a pace where they blades are nearly invisible but it states that Depa is just faster.

No, Mace wasn't attacking her. They were not "exchanging blows" at all. The text explicitly tells us that he refused to strike back. Nothing in any of your quotes suggests that he fought back. Mace moved his lightsaber and generated several patterns with it, but that doesn't mean he attacked. He would have been generating those slashing patterns as a means of defending against Depa. None of this explicitly proves that he attacked. Might it imply that he did? Yes, if this was in another context. But there is already a quote which directly and irrefutably states that he didn't fight back. There isn't a way past that.

Again, we see that Depa is proving Stronger than Mace also at this point. But it's very clear that she wants to die. She wants Mace to kill her. She doesn't want to give him a choice the matter so she is throwing everything at him with compete disregard. My proof that Mace was giving it his all is simple. He wanted to win this fight without ending her life and couldn't figure that out until the very end of it all. I believe fully that Mace could not simply over power and subdue her. At this point she was too strong, too fast and too powerful.

Mace could not overcome her with thanks to the fact that he wasn't even counterattacking.

Mace was question on how he was able to stand against the coordinated gun fire of 3 gunships. Prior to it happening his states that he would give the gunships a lesson on Vaapad. That was my #1 from the previous quote.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here.

In regards to #2, my point is not that it can happen here in this battle but that it has happened outside of the popularlly believed exclusive battle of Windu/Sidious. The point being that it has happened on more than 1 occasion and under different circumstances. I am challenging and disproving that the amp can only be done in one way(Not to the same level of power, but to simply occur)

No, it didn't occur more than once, and if it did, the Depa instance involved additional circumstances not available to Mace in this fight, so it would be irrelevant either way. All you've claimed is that Depa was able to amp herself, but you neglected to mention the fact that it explicitly stated that she was drawing power of the deaths of nearby Akk guards.

The nature of the amp being different is my point, though fundamentally I think they are very much the same. Windu/Sidious Backflow of Force put out by Sidious. Windu/Depa backflow of force from people dying coming to them.

Not really. Mace's amp in RotS was not a result of any backflow. It was never mentioned in the novel (both novels were written by the same author).

The holding back issue seems to be your and my second biggest point of contention. If Windu wanted her died, he would have killed her, but he did not and she was too strong to incapacitate

This doesn't relate to the amplification.

I honestly do respect you in debate, but this is a WTF moment for me as I really think my point is obvious and I don't even understand how this type of response. But I'm going to assume I typed poorly and didn't express myself right. So, here is the answer to "What in the world do the two have in relation to each other.

First: I never implied that they were equal. Never.

The point is not that you said they were actually equal, but the fact that you claimed that they had similar circumstances (ie. Mace only did it once and not another time because he "chose not to").

Second:

.He also never used Force Crush against them either. You are using the fact that because he never used his amp in those fights that he can not do so. What I'm saying is by that logic, he also can not use Force Crush. Even though we know that he could have certainly done so given that he TK'ed Sora and Kar Vastor. Since he did not, he could not, right?

This doesn't even being to address the context of each fight. Mace told Sora he was not the real fight and left. Did not want to kill him.

Mace repeatedly states he didn't want to kill Depa.

This is precisely what I was saying was laughable in my prior post.

Mace cannot Crush them because most of them are more powerful than he is, or they are at least comparably powerful. Mace needs to be considerably more powerful than them to Crush them, which he isn't, and Crush is a dark side power. Jedi using Crush is not necessarily impossible, but the way in which they are portrayed in OCW/TCW seems more to be of an inconsistency than anything else.

"Did not want to kill him" doesn't mean he was holding back or anything else.

And he didn't strike back in Depa's case. That is one of the few/only cases of him actually holding back.

Mace was playing Kar Vastor in their first fight and kills him with almost no effort in the second encounter.

What are you talking about? Mace admitted his inability to beat Kar Vastor, and he never killed him. Kar Vastor lives into the Rebellion era.

Mace beat Ventress down and she ran and again he states that he wants her alive.

And sources have told us that the beating of Ventress was a feat which cost him everything he had with regards to skill.

Mace has used the amp that I have pointed out twice. And both times when he knew he couldn't escape and was willing to kill the other person.

No, he hasn't. And he was not going to kill Palpatine during the duel, either, only after the Lightning attack.

But if him not using it in all the others is evidence that he could not, then the same should be true of Force Crush.(Which would be down right foolish.)

Not even close. Crush is a Force power, its usage is dependent on the user's alignment/morals and his power relative to that of his opponent. The amplification has nothing to do with how Mace's Force power compares to others. So again, they don't relate at all, which is why I was saying the point is ridiculous. Not being able to amp yourself is perfectly logical, because it makes little sense and lacks objective evidence to support that notion. Crush is an entirely different and unrelated matter.

That's not some extreme effort. He threw his hand forward and bared his teeth. Compared to

That shows no more effort on Mace's part. He had the chance to Force Crush and didn't. He had the chance to Amp and didn't.

Mace has never displayed Crush mid-duel, as very few characters in the history of SW had. Under the pressure of a fight, Push would be the only viable option, not Crush.

No, he didn't "have the chance to amp". Nothing implied this in the text, and Mace's Crush is irrelevant to whether or not he would amp himself.

The Amp seems to only be viable in the face of a strong force user or a place very strong in the force. but lets keep going. Not only that, Mace seems to need to give in to Vaapad and thus desire to kill that person. He's stated this a number of times.

No, it requires something internal (ie. the dark emotions he felt in RotS) that can be channeled by Vaapad. He does not have access to that here.

Now, you even admit freely that Ventress is less powerful than Mace.Why would he amp himself here? He overwhelmed her instantly. She states clearly that she wants the battle. Wants him dead above all others and has wanted this. Yet after testing his power, she runs away.

He never overwhelmed her instantly.

Mace Windu had to use all his skills to defeat the dark side fighter Asajj Ventress.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File 108 (Credit to Intrepid37)

He was challenged, very much.

Now, I imagine that Mace could have amped himself, Blizted her and cut her to pieces or Force Crushed her while she was jumping and let that and the fall killer her. But Mace says he wants her alive. He doesn't want to kill her, thus he doesn't Force Crush or amp himself.

And therein lies the problem. "I imagine" does not suffice as evidence to support a notion. Nothing implies that. Mace is only slightly faster than Ventress at best, and he is also only slightly more powerful. He is not capable of Crushing her on his best day.

Kar Vastor: As I said before, Mace played him the entire first fight. He states clearly that he picked the fight without his lightsaber because he knew he couldn't win it that way and he would make it easier to trick him later. Moreover, Mace later kills him with almost no effort at all. However, Mace could not have finished his mission if he killed Kar in the first fight with Force Crush and there was no need to amp himself for a dual when killing him took little effort.

Mace never killed him to begin with. Kar Vastor continues to live afterwards, and Mace admitted his loss to Kar Vastor was a result of inferiority.

Mace was jumped mid fight here. Outside Forces. However, Mace could have Force Crushed him right from the start while Dooku was unprepared. Why didn't he? Nothing was stopping him and has you say you don't have to be more powerful to us TK on someone. So, can Mace just not use Force Crush?

The idea that Mace can Crush anybody he likes is ludicrous. You don't have to be more powerful to Push them, as with Sora and Mace. To Crush somebody requires that you are substantially, if not vastly more powerful. Dooku is more powerful than Mace is. He has better feats, he has better accolades, better everything. Mace hardly even compares in Force power, yet you suggest that he could Crush Dooku? I don't want to sound derisory, but frankly, that's the dumbest thing I've heard all day.

I often feel like you think I believe that if Mace gets an amp he'll be just as strong has when he fought Sidious. I do not believe this. The amp has proven itself relative to the force power it is drawn from. Like how Mace matched sidious. Or Depa over powered mace. Or Mace was easily able to take down 3 gunships that were about to kill him. Anyway. We see here that Mace battles a bit before seeing he needs to leave because Sora is basically just a distraction. A wave of his hand TK's him into a wall. Knowing that he needs to be somewhere else, why would he amp himself to dual longer when TK would do the job of getting him away. Again, he doesn't seem to want Sora dead. But if he did, that TK blast could have easily been Force Crush. Why didn't he just kill him there?

I said nothing about the potency of his amp. We've been discussing the nature of it all this time.

And again, Mace is not more powerful than Sora by such a huge margin that he could just kill him with the Force at will. Sora is comparably powerful, as we've seen in that he could directly TK Mace. Stop trying to justify your claims with ridiculous examples. Mace has never displayed Crush whilst dueling, only Push, and he isn't powerful enough to Crush any notable Force user. That's why his single instance of it was against a non-Force sensitive, who was defenseless for that reason.

There. I believe I addressed all the battles you brought up. But as I said, by your logic he can't use Force Crush in any of these fights. Is that what you are saying?

In most of your examples, no, he can't, because he needs to be so far ahead of them in sheer power that they can't compare to him. Which he isn't.

I don't know if Mace can amp himself of Dooku. In the event that he can, I don't see why he would not redirect the lightning. However I don't recall anyone else ever using Lighting against Windu.

Nothing suggests that any of Mace's amp relates to redirecting Lightning. He was amped to ridiculous levels against Palpatine, yet the novel made it clear that Palpatine's Lightning was bending Mace's lightsaber back and he was about to be slain by his own weapon. Palpatine stopped so he could goad Anakin into turning to the dark side.

I was implying that Mace has shown, like with the lightning, he can let the power flow through him and use it to his advantage.

That doesn't show anything.

I don't understand why you say this when

  1. Shatterpoint makes it very clear that he could have given into Vaapad and the Backflow just as Depa dead. No, he didn't amp himself, but clearly the option is there.
  2. Mace does amp himself to not get gun down by the three gunships. He later explains that he was suffering the side effects from do this. I posted that above.
  3. Depa clearly amps herself the the use of Vaapad and the backflow. Again, showing that the option is there and not something that only would take place in the fight against Sidious. And no I'm not saying she was as strong as Mace was when he did it nor am I saying Mace would have become just as strong as the amp he got from Sidious. I'm only saying she did and he could have received and increase in power.

And I don't understand why you say this when:

1. Shatterpoint makes it very clear that Depa's amp was exclusive, and it required circumstances, namely, the deaths of nearby characters to feed it.

2. That was never proven.

3. Depa clearly amped herself with the help of other people dying, which Mace doesn't have access to here.

The only times any Vaapad user has amped himself or herself is when:

1. There are other characters nearby to sustain that.

2. There is a tremendous darkness within a character, which is channeled through the mechanics of Vaapad to amplify the character.

Mace has access to neither condition in this scenario. Therefore, he cannot amp himself.

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okayalright_44

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#125  Edited By okayalright_44

@jacthripper said:

IMO it all depends on the environment, if it's an area that's open, Dooku will win as it favors his dueling style, if they fight on rough terrain, Windu should win due to being more agile and physically powerful.

And yet neither of those attributes afforded Anakin (who is more agile, and more physically powerful than Mace) a solid edge (consistently) in his several encounters with Dooku.

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Erkan12

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@okayalright_44: Anakin defeated Dooku in TCW via lightsaber combat, so yeah, those attributes afforded a solid edge to him, Dooku only saved himself via force powers.

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And Anakin physically more powerful than Mace Windu ? I don't even know why Anakin overhyped that much. He is not in an entire different tier than Obi-Wan, he tried every physical advantage against him in Mustafar, and he still lost. The reason he is doing fine against Count's elegant makashi is his aggressive lightsaber style, not because he is in an entire different tier than others. Another example, he ragdolled just like Obi-Wan against Savage Opress's strentgh. And lastly, Anakin had a hard time against one Gundark, while Mace Windu held his own against two Gundarks.

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And Mace ;

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Except hyperbole quotes from books, which means nothing while we have the true (and also canon) examples here, Anakin is nowhere near ''physically more powerful'' than Mace Windu.

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Mije_101

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#128  Edited By Mije_101

@erkan12: "Have a nice nap."

Mace is the man.

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PabloSL

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This is still going? Mace stomps, anyone who says otherwise is trolling

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spartankobe

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@pablosl said:

This is still going? Mace stomps, anyone who says otherwise is trolling

Yeah dude. Everyone here is just Dooku wanking and have no credibility to their inane arguments. Mace stomped Dooku's master, who once went so fast that Dooku could not see his blade. Windu blitzes and one shots.

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Caseiden

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Yoda 6/10

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NinjaWarrior268

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@wollfmyth209 said:

This isn't gonna be an even split. Dooku is faster, more powerful and slightly more skilled. Mace is only stronger really and comparable, or equal in skill. Dooku wins 6-7/10.

good job. If I didn't see your post as one of the ones made within the last 5; I was going to hang myself.

Damn, we were so close

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okayalright_44

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@ninjawarrior268: Too late. I killed myself via Auto Erotic asphyxiation, then I came too after 3 hours.

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GeorgeWBush

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okayalright_44

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Olaf_Silvermane

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Fairly even. I will give a slight edge to Mace Windu. 6/10 - Mace.

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MasterKungFu

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dooku

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Soviet_Dan1992

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#138  Edited By Soviet_Dan1992

This is close, both are evenly matched as force users, swordsmanship, and armament. Windu has an edge in physicality, but let us all remember to check ourselves. Mace and Yoda are the only two Jedi to match Dooku in lightsaber combat. Mace would not be able to use Dooku's darkness to channel his Vapaad due to Dooku's ability to mask his dark side aura. Mace's shatter point gives him an edge but like Spider-Man's spider-sense it is up to Mace to act on it. Vapaad is also very exhausting from a martial arts standpoint due to the wild nature of it and although unpredictable, it leaves the user open for counter attacks. Thier force powers are pretty much cancelled out because they are so evenly matched. I'd say Dooku wins by a slight margin. It will be a long, drawn out fight, but Mace will exhaust faster due to Vapaad's acrobatic and wild nature, while Dooku's mastery of Makashi will have him exerting far less energy. All it would take is one of Mace's wild strikes to leave him open to a quick and decisive thrust to Windu's chest.

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Ibn_Khaldun

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The only character who could stand a chance against Windu would be Maul or possibly Grievous.

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HellBlazing

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SamuelTheEpic

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Mace Windu. I really don't think Sidious > Windu, as I'm pretty sure I heard George Lucas say Windu won against Sidious in their fight. And Sidious > Dooku (obviously)

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AlphaQ

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Dooku wins. As many have said, he is more powerful, faster and more skilled, pretty much the most important edges in a fight.

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megamaxmind

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mace windu

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ElderSkaar

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#144  Edited By ElderSkaar

Windu is definitely the better lightsaber duelist but they are about equal in force powers.

Mace Windu for a solid win 9/10

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PabloSL

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Mace stomps

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DarthManhunter

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Wow, no one is stomping the other here. They are quite comparable duelists, and is stated many times as being such. The notion that Mace stomps is laughable. I could see a case for a slight majority 6/10 one way or another but stomp? No.

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Xargo

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#147  Edited By Xargo

count dookus masterly of the sith dun moch tactic would give him the edge tyranus was known for breaking through the force shields of other and rag dolling them with TK i dont think mace's vapaad would have any way of countering that

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MrHamWallet

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#149  Edited By MrHamWallet

@leo-343: Means little out of context, different styles are a big factor.

It's a really close fight, I'd say Windu edges it out in a very slight majority.

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juiceboks

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#150 juiceboks  Moderator

Dooku and Mace have been stated multiple times to be on par with one another in lightsaber skill, but Dooku's large advantage in offensive Force application gives him a majority.