@bossmonster:
Consider this: I want to open a Jar, but the lid is one tight. I could just smash the jar but I want the content inside to stay clean. By not smashing it, am I holding back? Mace did not want her death. In his opening move, he could have killed her easily, but that is not want he wanted.
The second part of this has nothing to do with my point.
As for your analogy, to an extent, yes. If you don't smash it, then you're implying that you would be using other, less violent means of opening a jar. Even if you tried as hard as you could, you would probably instinctively use less of your strength than if you just smashed it without needing to care about the contents. The fact that you do care about the contents means that you would probably subconsciously restrain yourself very slightly.
Again, I think you are not considering the context of the situation. Depa is suggested to be far more powerful at this point. Drawing on the force as they fight. Mace clearly did not want her died. It is suggested that
the only way to stop her in the dual is to kill her. Considered early parts of their dual:
Of course Mace didn't want her dead. And he refused to strike back as well, which is indicative of holding back, because striking back is a near-necessity for Form VII.
First thing to note: If Mace wanted her dead he could have killed her right then. It states clearly he butted her in the head instead of impaling her skull
Second thing, they are exchanging blow. Mace did attack her in this fight. Then:
They are both moving at a pace where they blades are nearly invisible but it states that Depa is just faster.
No, Mace wasn't attacking her. They were not "exchanging blows" at all. The text explicitly tells us that he refused to strike back. Nothing in any of your quotes suggests that he fought back. Mace moved his lightsaber and generated several patterns with it, but that doesn't mean he attacked. He would have been generating those slashing patterns as a means of defending against Depa. None of this explicitly proves that he attacked. Might it imply that he did? Yes, if this was in another context. But there is already a quote which directly and irrefutably states that he didn't fight back. There isn't a way past that.
Again, we see that Depa is proving Stronger than Mace also at this point. But it's very clear that she wants to die. She wants Mace to kill her. She doesn't want to give him a choice the matter so she is throwing everything at him with compete disregard. My proof that Mace was giving it his all is simple. He wanted to win this fight without ending her life and couldn't figure that out until the very end of it all. I believe fully that Mace could not simply over power and subdue her. At this point she was too strong, too fast and too powerful.
Mace could not overcome her with thanks to the fact that he wasn't even counterattacking.
Mace was question on how he was able to stand against the coordinated gun fire of 3 gunships. Prior to it happening his states that he would give the gunships a lesson on Vaapad. That was my #1 from the previous quote.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here.
In regards to #2, my point is not that it can happen here in this battle but that it has happened outside of the popularlly believed exclusive battle of Windu/Sidious. The point being that it has happened on more than 1 occasion and under different circumstances. I am challenging and disproving that the amp can only be done in one way(Not to the same level of power, but to simply occur)
No, it didn't occur more than once, and if it did, the Depa instance involved additional circumstances not available to Mace in this fight, so it would be irrelevant either way. All you've claimed is that Depa was able to amp herself, but you neglected to mention the fact that it explicitly stated that she was drawing power of the deaths of nearby Akk guards.
The nature of the amp being different is my point, though fundamentally I think they are very much the same. Windu/Sidious Backflow of Force put out by Sidious. Windu/Depa backflow of force from people dying coming to them.
Not really. Mace's amp in RotS was not a result of any backflow. It was never mentioned in the novel (both novels were written by the same author).
The holding back issue seems to be your and my second biggest point of contention. If Windu wanted her died, he would have killed her, but he did not and she was too strong to incapacitate
This doesn't relate to the amplification.
I honestly do respect you in debate, but this is a WTF moment for me as I really think my point is obvious and I don't even understand how this type of response. But I'm going to assume I typed poorly and didn't express myself right. So, here is the answer to "What in the world do the two have in relation to each other.
First: I never implied that they were equal. Never.
The point is not that you said they were actually equal, but the fact that you claimed that they had similar circumstances (ie. Mace only did it once and not another time because he "chose not to").
Second:
.He also never used Force Crush against them either. You are using the fact that because he never used his amp in those fights that he can not do so. What I'm saying is by that logic, he also can not use Force Crush. Even though we know that he could have certainly done so given that he TK'ed Sora and Kar Vastor. Since he did not, he could not, right?
This doesn't even being to address the context of each fight. Mace told Sora he was not the real fight and left. Did not want to kill him.
Mace repeatedly states he didn't want to kill Depa.
This is precisely what I was saying was laughable in my prior post.
Mace cannot Crush them because most of them are more powerful than he is, or they are at least comparably powerful. Mace needs to be considerably more powerful than them to Crush them, which he isn't, and Crush is a dark side power. Jedi using Crush is not necessarily impossible, but the way in which they are portrayed in OCW/TCW seems more to be of an inconsistency than anything else.
"Did not want to kill him" doesn't mean he was holding back or anything else.
And he didn't strike back in Depa's case. That is one of the few/only cases of him actually holding back.
Mace was playing Kar Vastor in their first fight and kills him with almost no effort in the second encounter.
What are you talking about? Mace admitted his inability to beat Kar Vastor, and he never killed him. Kar Vastor lives into the Rebellion era.
Mace beat Ventress down and she ran and again he states that he wants her alive.
And sources have told us that the beating of Ventress was a feat which cost him everything he had with regards to skill.
Mace has used the amp that I have pointed out twice. And both times when he knew he couldn't escape and was willing to kill the other person.
No, he hasn't. And he was not going to kill Palpatine during the duel, either, only after the Lightning attack.
But if him not using it in all the others is evidence that he could not, then the same should be true of Force Crush.(Which would be down right foolish.)
Not even close. Crush is a Force power, its usage is dependent on the user's alignment/morals and his power relative to that of his opponent. The amplification has nothing to do with how Mace's Force power compares to others. So again, they don't relate at all, which is why I was saying the point is ridiculous. Not being able to amp yourself is perfectly logical, because it makes little sense and lacks objective evidence to support that notion. Crush is an entirely different and unrelated matter.
That's not some extreme effort. He threw his hand forward and bared his teeth. Compared to
That shows no more effort on Mace's part. He had the chance to Force Crush and didn't. He had the chance to Amp and didn't.
Mace has never displayed Crush mid-duel, as very few characters in the history of SW had. Under the pressure of a fight, Push would be the only viable option, not Crush.
No, he didn't "have the chance to amp". Nothing implied this in the text, and Mace's Crush is irrelevant to whether or not he would amp himself.
The Amp seems to only be viable in the face of a strong force user or a place very strong in the force. but lets keep going. Not only that, Mace seems to need to give in to Vaapad and thus desire to kill that person. He's stated this a number of times.
No, it requires something internal (ie. the dark emotions he felt in RotS) that can be channeled by Vaapad. He does not have access to that here.
Now, you even admit freely that Ventress is less powerful than Mace.Why would he amp himself here? He overwhelmed her instantly. She states clearly that she wants the battle. Wants him dead above all others and has wanted this. Yet after testing his power, she runs away.
He never overwhelmed her instantly.
Mace Windu had to use all his skills to defeat the dark side fighter Asajj Ventress.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File 108 (Credit to Intrepid37)
He was challenged, very much.
Now, I imagine that Mace could have amped himself, Blizted her and cut her to pieces or Force Crushed her while she was jumping and let that and the fall killer her. But Mace says he wants her alive. He doesn't want to kill her, thus he doesn't Force Crush or amp himself.
And therein lies the problem. "I imagine" does not suffice as evidence to support a notion. Nothing implies that. Mace is only slightly faster than Ventress at best, and he is also only slightly more powerful. He is not capable of Crushing her on his best day.
Kar Vastor: As I said before, Mace played him the entire first fight. He states clearly that he picked the fight without his lightsaber because he knew he couldn't win it that way and he would make it easier to trick him later. Moreover, Mace later kills him with almost no effort at all. However, Mace could not have finished his mission if he killed Kar in the first fight with Force Crush and there was no need to amp himself for a dual when killing him took little effort.
Mace never killed him to begin with. Kar Vastor continues to live afterwards, and Mace admitted his loss to Kar Vastor was a result of inferiority.
Mace was jumped mid fight here. Outside Forces. However, Mace could have Force Crushed him right from the start while Dooku was unprepared. Why didn't he? Nothing was stopping him and has you say you don't have to be more powerful to us TK on someone. So, can Mace just not use Force Crush?
The idea that Mace can Crush anybody he likes is ludicrous. You don't have to be more powerful to Push them, as with Sora and Mace. To Crush somebody requires that you are substantially, if not vastly more powerful. Dooku is more powerful than Mace is. He has better feats, he has better accolades, better everything. Mace hardly even compares in Force power, yet you suggest that he could Crush Dooku? I don't want to sound derisory, but frankly, that's the dumbest thing I've heard all day.
I often feel like you think I believe that if Mace gets an amp he'll be just as strong has when he fought Sidious. I do not believe this. The amp has proven itself relative to the force power it is drawn from. Like how Mace matched sidious. Or Depa over powered mace. Or Mace was easily able to take down 3 gunships that were about to kill him. Anyway. We see here that Mace battles a bit before seeing he needs to leave because Sora is basically just a distraction. A wave of his hand TK's him into a wall. Knowing that he needs to be somewhere else, why would he amp himself to dual longer when TK would do the job of getting him away. Again, he doesn't seem to want Sora dead. But if he did, that TK blast could have easily been Force Crush. Why didn't he just kill him there?
I said nothing about the potency of his amp. We've been discussing the nature of it all this time.
And again, Mace is not more powerful than Sora by such a huge margin that he could just kill him with the Force at will. Sora is comparably powerful, as we've seen in that he could directly TK Mace. Stop trying to justify your claims with ridiculous examples. Mace has never displayed Crush whilst dueling, only Push, and he isn't powerful enough to Crush any notable Force user. That's why his single instance of it was against a non-Force sensitive, who was defenseless for that reason.
There. I believe I addressed all the battles you brought up. But as I said, by your logic he can't use Force Crush in any of these fights. Is that what you are saying?
In most of your examples, no, he can't, because he needs to be so far ahead of them in sheer power that they can't compare to him. Which he isn't.
I don't know if Mace can amp himself of Dooku. In the event that he can, I don't see why he would not redirect the lightning. However I don't recall anyone else ever using Lighting against Windu.
Nothing suggests that any of Mace's amp relates to redirecting Lightning. He was amped to ridiculous levels against Palpatine, yet the novel made it clear that Palpatine's Lightning was bending Mace's lightsaber back and he was about to be slain by his own weapon. Palpatine stopped so he could goad Anakin into turning to the dark side.
I was implying that Mace has shown, like with the lightning, he can let the power flow through him and use it to his advantage.
That doesn't show anything.
I don't understand why you say this when
Shatterpoint makes it very clear that he could have given into Vaapad and the Backflow just as Depa dead. No, he didn't amp himself, but clearly the option is there.
Mace does amp himself to not get gun down by the three gunships. He later explains that he was suffering the side effects from do this. I posted that above.
Depa clearly amps herself the the use of Vaapad and the backflow. Again, showing that the option is there and not something that only would take place in the fight against Sidious. And no I'm not saying she was as strong as Mace was when he did it nor am I saying Mace would have become just as strong as the amp he got from Sidious. I'm only saying she did and he could have received and increase in power.
And I don't understand why you say this when:
1. Shatterpoint makes it very clear that Depa's amp was exclusive, and it required circumstances, namely, the deaths of nearby characters to feed it.
2. That was never proven.
3. Depa clearly amped herself with the help of other people dying, which Mace doesn't have access to here.
The only times any Vaapad user has amped himself or herself is when:
1. There are other characters nearby to sustain that.
2. There is a tremendous darkness within a character, which is channeled through the mechanics of Vaapad to amplify the character.
Mace has access to neither condition in this scenario. Therefore, he cannot amp himself.
Log in to comment