Mace Windu vs Count Dooku

Windu defeated Sidious , and this is the conversation Yoda and Windu had before Yoda gave Windu permission to arrest Palpatine.

‘’Too much of a risk, ‘’ mace replied. ‘’I am the fourth. ‘’

With a slow purse of the lips and an ever slower nod, Yoda said, ‘’ On watch you have been too long, my padawan. Rest you must . ‘’

‘’I will, Master. When the Republic is safe once more . ‘’

Dooku just isn't on Windu / Sidious / Yoda their tier really .

Been done. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, the SW databank, and some other sources have already established them as equivalents.

@shootingnova:

Agreed, btw can i have the SW databank link bro, i must of missed that SW source .

@beingfatissupercool: Your earlier post implies you don't agree with me, yet now you claim that you do? I'll just give you all of the accolades I had in mind.

The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.

Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our greatest student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our greatest failure."

Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Correction: They're equivalent in raw lightsaber skill, but Tyranus has displayed greater showings/he has greater accolades for Force power. He should win about 6-7/10.

@shootingnova:

I agreed with the sources stating Dooku is Windu's equal , and that regular Windu might be at Dooku's tier but not better .

But i think because Windu could have the amp against Dooku because Dooku also played a part in destroying the republic that Windu loved so much .

That Dooku knew of this and all would make Windu more deadly i think .

Also i don't see why Windu wouldn't be as good against Dooku as he was against Sidious .

@beingfatissupercool: Mace wouldn't have the same amp against Dooku he had when he was fighting Sidious. That was a one time thing..and Dooku wasn't part of the Republic during Order 66 nor anytime close to that. There would be no betrayal invovled..

Dooku 6.5/10 due to considerably greater power in the force.

Dooku was an ex-jedi , who Windu thrusted and Dooku betrayed him by becoming a sith .

They have never faced each other after that until now, so i'd figure Windu has his reasons to be as mad against Dooku than he is against Sidious .

Also Dooku knew about it , and i think Windu's powers just cut loose from the moment he knew the republic was lost, and he wanted to revenge every person that is responsible for that .

The fact that Windu wanted to kill Sidious and not trial him says enough about him cutting loose right .

And in my opinion Windu owning Sidious was a fair fight , both were going all out, and as long it has not been proven that the feat Windu was doing is a 1 time only event , i think we have to assume Windu > Sidious , where Sidious > Dooku .

Dooku is not superior to Mace in the force, especially not at any degree to ''considerably'' .

Mace manipulated an AT-TE (a tank), force crushed Grievous. Used powerful force wave,force crush and force blast on large droid armies, stomped / disarmed Quinlan Vos & Sora Bulq. Manipulated a small piece of a ship that Grievous didn't even noticed. Dooku is not going to beat Mace via telekinesis.

This is up to lightsaber battle, both are considered as equal duelist in the past. However, hypes of Mace is better than Dooku in RotS especially with Vaapad. (unmatched skills with lightsaber, compared with Yoda by Obi-Wan & Lucas)

In speed, they are equal as well, if Mace amp himself, he can even be faster than Count. Physical strength goes to Mace, he also knows djem-so maneuvers, and he has enough kinetic power to defeat Dooku.

Mace 10 / 10.

LOL?

Lol if you have a counter .

The counter is that Sidious threw the fight. Dude, some of your comments are mystifying.

@beingfatissupercool: Mace has known of Dooku's alliance for years..facing him in battle would not make him angry enough to amp himself. The whole reason why he got the amp against Sidious was because he didn't expect someone like Palpatine to be THE Sith Lord. It was a one time thing..and unless you can bring up some instance of it happening again..it's not gonna happen again.

@juiceboks: You couldn't be wasting your time any more than you are right now. I'd just bail if I were you.

@mije_101@i_like_swords

Dial it back guys. We're on the internet debating about people that don't exist. Insults and snarkiness aren't necessary.

I read the rots novel twice now ,watched the movie, wen't trough every official star wars database , saw the behind the scenes and wen't trough all the Windu vs Sidious threads , and there's not 1 sentence that actually says that Windu is amped .

There's a lot of things indicating , but no actual waterproof quotes .

The best thing is probably Windu saying he was fighting for the republic and all it stands for and bla bla bla .

Also unless you got evidence i haven't seen before ( and i most likely saw it before ) that Sidious was faking, than yes Windu is better .

And Windu wasn't even at his peak against Sidious .

‘’Too much of a risk, ‘’ mace replied. ‘’I am the fourth. ‘’

With a slow purse of the lips and an ever slower nod, Yoda said, ‘’ On watch you have been too long, my padawan. Rest you must . ‘’

‘’I will, Master. When the Republic is safe once more . ‘’

Yoda didn't wanna send Windu because he was tired .

If this wasn't such a big deal Yoda wouldn't have bothered saying that .

@kaang_the_watcher: I haven't broken any rules or insulted anyone, and "snarkiness" is fair game as long as that's all it extends to. Stop playing moderator.

I'm not here to argue with you about whether or not you've broken a rule. I just don't like seeing my threads degrade into the "You're stupid, no you're stupid" game.

@i_like_swords: You know what..you're absolutely right. It's best just to dip like chip..

Sidious did not throw the fight .

1 ) Sidious would never sacrifise his lightsaber for no reason .

2 ) Sidious tried to throw Windu out of the window for 50 meters, and didn't expect Windu to react to that .

3 ) Lucas said Windu overpowered Sidious , which he wouldn't of said if Sidious wasn't going all out , because then it would never have been overpowering .

4 ) Nowhere in the ENTIRE Starwars cannon + Legends + database does it say anything about Sidious faking that fight to bring in Anakin, and that is suspicious enough .

5 )

And here is something that you can't deny , that just is waterproof evidence :

This comes straight out of the Starwars official database :

Anakin gave Sidious the opening he needed to blast Windu trough a window .

http://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-sidious-biography-gallery

@beingfatissupercool said:

Yes he would, it's obvious his lightning was strong enough to blow Mace away if he had kept on going. He stopped to force Anakin to choose.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—

It is heavily implied that Sidious was playing possum, though I don't blame you for thinking Mace won, you take a lot of quotes out of context.

Lucas also said Vader is 80% of Sidious, yet you constantly say Dooku and Maul would beat Vader every time.

Waterproof evidence? lmao.

"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"

It's honestly quite clear Sidious knew what he was doing. He orchestrated the entire thing, sorry to say.

Eh... who said anything about calling someone stupid?

@mije_101

Well maybe Windu didn't know Sidious was hurting his own as well .

That's why Windu thought Sidious was too strong for him , he didn't see that Sidious was hurting his own face so much he would need to stop before killing Windu .

This is a perfect interpretation i'd say which doesn't contradict with any other material that we have .

While your interpretation of this does contradict several sources .

The other source you gave me doesn't necessarily say anything about Windu being physical amped or not .

%80 is post-suit Vader's potential. Anakin's potential was %200 of Sidious, then it decreases to %80. What would you know about Maul's potential ? (it has been stated as being more powerful than Mother Talzin) or Dooku's ? %80 is very ambiguous on this one. Lucas just said that, chosen one lost his potential. That is why he used that number.

Lucas also said, post-suit Vader was like Dooku and Maul, because he lost that great potential. That's the only important source we need to look at, as you know, Lucas created these characters...

Not even gonna bother. Think whatever you want.

Dooku. Not even going to entertain the other crap.

@i_like_swords: @okayalright_44: Don't give in...

Just let go...

If all of us could just simply ignore they would go away. Don't give in to your temptations. XD

@beingfatissupercool: Good for you, we can leave it at that.

I'm glad to see that you're not holding Mace in such high regard as you once did, but I still disagree with this.

Yes, he is. He has better accolades. Mace has always been renowned for skill, not power. Dooku has all the accolades I brought up.

Mace manipulated a 13m AT-TE, and he had to gather energy to do such a feat. Crushing Grievous is irrelevant because Grievous is non-Force sensitive, and Dooku crushed metallic objects as well. Mace TKing the army in CW is always taken out of context. He TKed a row of droids that fell backwards in an domino effect which ended up knocking down most of the army, and Mace utilized Wave at least twice. For Mace destroying several droids with just a Force Push, I agree it's a good showing, but not above, say, Dooku casually collapsing ceilings. Mace stomping Quinlan doesn't grant him any edge here, especially since he only Pushed Quinlan into a surface which disarmed him. Dooku actively Choked and ragdolled Quinlan whilst simultaneously relieving him of his lightsaber, and he has also ragdolled characters like Obi-Wan and Ventress, whom are more powerful than Quinlan.

They were considered equal duelists in the same year of RotS by Yoda himself, and Mace's hype is not better at all. His unmatched skills is hyperbole, as we already know Yoda is superior as a swordsman. And if you want to play it your way, Obi-Wan considered Dooku a supreme and perfect duelist in LoE (consummate duelist), and this was also in the same year as RotS. So yes, they are equivalent.

Dooku would not beat Mace solely through telekinesis (although he could if Mace left himself open or was distracted, which would explain why even Sora could TK him briefly), but being more powerful is an edge regardless. At worst, I could accept a 5/10.

Also, which source confirms that Mace knows Djem So? And Mace isn't amping himself, just as he never amped himself during their brief duel. If he had, he would have surely blitzed the Count.

Now, I already know your stance on my views, so ignore me at your will. Just don't bother replying and then telling me that you don't want to. Either reply or don't.

@shootingnova: I believe that Shatterpoint suggest highly that giving into the darkside.

I'm looking for the passage now. I meant to send it to you before and get your thought.

@bossmonster: Your first sentence isn't completed, so I can't understand what you mean.

@shootingnova: Sorry about that. Don't know why that happen. The novel shatterpoint to me suggest that a Vaapad Master can amp themselves by given into the darkness. That is what I was trying to say. Too me, it seems that way. If you disgree, that's cool. I'd like to know why. Here is the quote from Shatterpoint

Still he did not strike back.

'I will not kill you," he said. "Death is not the answer to your pain." Her reply was a scream louder and more savage and an onslaught to match. She broke through his guard again and scorched his wrist. Another stroke burned a slice through his pants leg just above the knee.

Power roared around her, a rising storm of darkness.

Mace got it now: as each Akk Guard died, his share of pelekotan backflowed through the bonds Vaster had forged among them.

She was getting stronger.

And with each stroke of her blade, he could feel himself slipping into the shadows. He had to. She was too strong, too fast, too everything. The only way he could survive was to give more of himself to Vaapad. To give all of himself.

To sink into pelekotaris dream.

He felt it: he had reached his own shatterpoint. And he was breaking.

I feel this is exactly like his dual with Sidious, however he was not broken. He did not fight back against her. But be it suggest that he could have done so. Given in to that part of him and been able to do more comabtively. He still finds a way to win this fight without giving up his morals. Yet in the fight with Sidious he was beyond that and got way stronger. So, I believe that it is possible for him to get a darkside boost in power, just like Depa does here.

@bossmonster: That was because Mace was holding back against Depa, who had been his best friend, or one of his best. The novel (even your own quote) explicitly states that he was holding back against Depa, and that would be why he had to "give himself more to Vaapad", because he actively restrained himself in that instance. You really wouldn't think that Depa could beat Mace, especially because Nick Gillard outright stated that Mace was the second most skilful swordsman in the Order at the time of AotC, since Dooku had left the Order.

The instance with Palpatine is exclusive to that instance, which is made clear int he RotS novel. So no, it wasn't a conscious or willing decision on his part to surrender himself to Vaapad, it was Vaapad's natural mechanics channeling the increased turbulent emotions/darkness within him caused by the knowledge of Palpatine's actions and how he manipulated the Republic for decades.

In case somebody asks why it won't happen against Dooku, who was also a threat to the Republic, Mace already knew that. Dooku was a threat to the Republic in open public, whereas Palpatine actually manipulated the Republic for decades without Mace knowing, especially since Mace had known him for so long and still failed to see the truth. The fact that Mace felt the Republic (his one true love) had more or less already lost, and that the entire war with Tyranus and the Seapratists was all for nothing, was the catalyst for such an amplification. It won't happen here, just as it never happened after he learnt of Dooku's transition to the dark side.

@shootingnova: I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

I know full well Windu was holding back and against Sidious he was not. However, Depa was getting stronger because of her ability to draw on the force through Vaapad. What I'm saying is that the line

And with each stroke of her blade, he could feel himself slipping into the shadows. He had to. She was too strong, too fast, too everything. The only way he could survive was to give more of himself to Vaapad. To give all of himself.

To sink into pelekotaris dream.

Source Shatterpoint.

Seem to be an extremely strong parallel to

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways.

Source ROTS

I'm against saying that there is too strong of a parallel between quotes like this

He felt it: he had reached his own shatterpoint. And he was breaking.

Source:Shatterpoint

Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.

Source: ROTS

And to be completely honest there is only one thing that I see in both events that are different. In the fight with Depa he suddenly had a reason to continue and turn away from the darkness. He didn't break. He did break in the fight with Sidious and thus gave in to the power.

That is why I think there is so merit to the idea of it being under his control. He only need be put in a situation in which he will break and has to give into the darkness to win.

*****Edit****

@shootingnova The novel (even your own quote) explicitly states that he was holding back against Depa, and that would be why he had to "give himself more to Vaapad", because he actively restrained himself in that instance.

I disagree with this. It also said that Depa was become stronger too. Mace was holding back. But the fight suggest he was holding back the urge to kill and give himself to the force around him. Not that because he was holding back giving himself to the dark aspect was the only way to fight and still hold back, that doesn't make sense.

@bossmonster: Vaapad doesn't alter how you draw on the Force, only how the Force flows through you in the most combative sense.

As for parallels, that's not a parallel at all; that's an opposite. In one of them Mace was actively holding back because he didn't want to fight Depa, and in another he was desperate to overpower Palpatine and was fully invigorated in an amplification.

And even if the idea was that you could amp yourself just by wanting to, which was never stated, absolutely nothing indicates he would amplify himself to a level rivaling his amplification against Palpatine. And once again, how does that novel quote state anything about getting stronger?

I disagree with this. It also said that Depa was become stronger too. Mace was holding back. But the fight suggest he was holding back the urge to kill and give himself to the force around him. Not that because he was holding back giving himself to the dark aspect was the only way to fight and still hold back, that doesn't make sense.

I never said he restrained the darkness within him. I said he was restraining his combative proficiency, which he did. Depa being or getting stronger is from his perspective (because he was weakening), and IIRC the novel stated something about alter Force-flows through characters when somebody died. I'll check it again. In any case, even if Depa did get stronger, and even if it really was just by willing it (Depa mostly fell to the dark, so that would be a more valid excuse in my opinion), it wasn't by a substantial margin.

@mije_101:

Make a Jedi fall, one cannot; beyond

even Lord Sidious, this is. Chose this, Skywalker did."

Source : Revenge Of The Sith ( Yoda against Kenobi ) .

Sidious didn't know at all if Anakin was gonna join him or not .

@beingfatissupercool: lol

Yoda said that Palpatine never forced or rather never could force Anakin to fall to the dark side, Anakin simply got manipulated into doing so/choosing so. Obviously Palpatine cannot simply control his mind into joining him.

And Yoda's words were subjective semantics, not objective fact, and he was wrong. Revan, Vitiate, Palpatine, and other Sith all made Jedi fall to the dark side without their choosing, but that's really besides the point because Sidious has nothing to do with this battle.

@shootingnova:

Well after a long thought, i agree and disagree with this.

Yoda would know about all of the events you summoned, they would be mentioned in the library , or he would have known them personally, so if he's lying now, we might just consider everything he has ever said to be a lie .

Maybe there's a perfect explanation for the jedi that have fallen before so it was kinda their own choice at some part ?

Also you didn't mention the fact that Sidious is the most strongest sith user of all times . And therefore he knows things of the sith ways that Yoda doesn't know ( most likely ).

So it could be that Sidious knows how to make a jedi fall , with Yoda still thinking it is impossible .

But that is also debateble .

Any way the other evidence stands for itself that Sidious didn't fake at any point .

And yes it does matter because Sidious is obviously better than Dooku , and if it can be proven that Windu is better than Sidious he can also take on Dooku .

May i add to the fact that Dooku overwon Windu once , shouldn't be used .

Example : Imagine Anakin being 19, losing from Obi-Wan ( 32 ) .

Then 20 years later , Anakin would be 39 , and Kenobi 52 .

Would the logic then also be , Anakin = Kenobi because Kenobi won once from him in a sparring match ? No Anakin would own Kenobi like it was nothing .

Anakin was younger, and still hadn't reach his prime yet compared to Kenobi who wouldn't improve that much any more .

So this is the exact same thing with Dooku and Mace .

Mace was probably like 28 then when Dooku would have been like 60 - 70 ?

Mace still had to reach his prime , while Dooku probably wouldn't improve that much anymore .

Just saying that if Windu was already better than anyone except for Dooku and Yoda more then like 20 years ago ( but it could also been less ) , how could he not have surpassed Dooku by now then, knowing Windu is a lot closer now to his prime years ?

That would the same like Anakin in 20 years still not being stronger than Kenobi .

Just saying .

@shootingnova: No, but Vaapad can create a conductive circuit which a skill user can draw from. So Vaapad doing it or facilitating it is moot.

Also, something that is opposite does run paralleled. I.E. Left to Right. North to south. White to Black. I know full well that the situations I pointed out are opposite but only in their out come. In one, Mace fully believe that at his breaking point he must give in to the darkness and Vaapad to survive but he does not do this.

In the other the same conditions apply and he does give in. Even you make this distinction

As for parallels, that's not a parallel at all; that's an opposite. In one of them Mace was actively holding back because he didn't want to fight Depa, and in another he was desperate to overpower Palpatine and was fully invigorated in an amplification.

While not the Jedi why, Windu could and would kill a man if he must. However in Depa's case this was certainly not what he wanted to do as his intention was to save her. With Sidious, stopping him by whatever means needed was clearly called for. In both Situations, as I've pointed out, Mace reached the same breaking point and had the same chance to give in to that power he knew would save him.

And even if the idea was that you could amp yourself just by wanting to, which was never stated, absolutely nothing indicates he would amplify himself to a level rivaling his amplification against Palpatine. And once again, how does that novel quote state anything about getting stronger?

How strong Depa was getting is not relevant my point at all. The idea that is would be that such an amp is an option to a Master of Vaapad. It's the only thing I am debating.

Power roared around her, a rising storm of darkness.

Mace got it now: as each Akk Guard died, his share of pelekotan backflowed through the bonds Vaster had forged among them.

She was getting stronger.

Source: Shatterpoint

I don't know what about this isn't clear. It very clearly states that the pelekotan backflow was going into Depa and she was getting stronger. I'm sure that you know pelekotan is the word on that world they used to talk about The Force.

It later goes on to say that Mace's only chance was to give in to the pelekotan and Vaapad. These things seem clear as day.

I never said he restrained the darkness within him. I said he was restraining his combative proficiency, which he did. Depa being or getting stronger is from his perspective (because he was weakening), and IIRC the novel stated something about alter Force-flows through characters when somebody died. I'll check it again. In any case, even if Depa did get stronger, and even if it really was just by willing it (Depa mostly fell to the dark, so that would be a more valid excuse in my opinion), it wasn't by a substantial margin.

IIRC, you once talked about how a person could hold back killing a person without actually limiting any of their combative proficiency. In fact, I think it was in a Mace Windu vs Yoda thread. I may try going to find it. My point is, Windu wasn't holding back skill. He was fighting her serious, but needed to kill her to win because she was getting stronger.

Mace backpedaled, parrying frantically, absorbing the shock of her attacks with bent arms and a two-handed grip. He was taller than she, with more reach and weight, and vastly more muscle in his upper body, but she drove him backward as though he were a child. Green flame struck through his

guard, and only a frantic jerk of his head turned what would have been a brain-burning thrust into a line of char along his cheekbone.

Still he did not strike back.

'I will not kill you," he said. "Death is not the answer to your pain." Her reply was a scream louder and more savage and an onslaught to match.

Source:Shatterpoint

Mace was doing everything he could to protect himself short of hurting her and she was finding ways to get through his guard. His defense was 100% but in a fight you need offense and that was the only thing he wasn't doing. The novel makes it clear that Mace should without question be the stronger of the two yet she pushed him back like he was a child. So, she wasn't getting stronger from Maces point of view, she was getting stronger for real. Which is the single point I am trying to make.

We can see that through the darkside of the force and Vaapad, Mace was not the only one to ever receive this amp. Depa got it also and Mace had the choice to do it. But as we both know, the thing about Vaapad is you have to want to win and enjoy the fight and Windu did not enjoy fighting the girl he saw as his daughter he did not want to kill her. But he could certainly enjoy fighting and the idea of killing the man who he saw as the death of his one true love.

As I said before, I am not trying to prove that Depa was on Yoda/Sidious power level from this. Only that Depa was actively draw on the Force through Vaapad and making herself Windu's match and that Windu could have done the same and knew it but did not do so because as a choice. Which in turn would validate the idea of the Vaapad power boost.

I have not made any leaping conclusions nor have a grasped at any straws. I've drawn very reasonable parallels from both Novels.

@beingfatissupercool: No, Yoda wouldn't know about Vitiate and Revan much. Vitiate was incredibly shrouded in mystery and few would have known of him. As for Revan, no, it wouldn't be in libraries either, since even the Jedi of that era didn't know how Revan converted so many, so quickly. The only one who knew that was Traya who died before telling anybody else. Meetra was present during Kreia's monologue, but she was unconscious, and even if she did know, she left for the Unknown Regions and was (stupidly) killed, and nothing implies that she left that in any record.

So why was this brought up, again? Did you believe that if Mace was going to surrender himself to Vaapad in that instance, that he would have achieved a level of fighting proficiency equivalent to his state against Sidious?

While not the Jedi why, Windu could and would kill a man if he must. However in Depa's case this was certainly not what he wanted to do as his intention was to save her. With Sidious, stopping him by whatever means needed was clearly called for. In both Situations, as I've pointed out, Mace reached the same breaking point and had the same chance to give in to that power he knew would save him.

Not necessarily. Mace's breaking point more than likely was altered since Shatterpoint, and Mace was never stated to have been as shattered in Shatterpoint as he was in RotS. The Republic hadn't fallen by then, nor did he suspect that it would. As much as he loves Depa, the Republic is something he loves more.

How strong Depa was getting is not relevant my point at all. The idea that is would be that such an amp is an option to a Master of Vaapad. It's the only thing I am debating.

I don't know what about this isn't clear. It very clearly states that the pelekotan backflow was going into Depa and she was getting stronger. I'm sure that you know pelekotan is the word on that world they used to talk about The Force.

If this was what you meant all along, then the pelekotan backflow is the Force, so it doesn't relate to Vaapad. The novel said that the pelekotan backflow was being gained as a result of the deaths of akk guards, IIRC, so what does that have to do with Mace choosing to amplify himself or not?

It later goes on to say that Mace's only chance was to give in to the pelekotan and Vaapad. These things seem clear as day.

Perhaps because Mace hadn't given in to them yet?

IIRC, you once talked about how a person could hold back killing a person without actually limiting any of their combative proficiency. In fact, I think it was in a Mace Windu vs Yoda thread. I may try going to find it. My point is, Windu wasn't holding back skill. He was fighting her serious, but needed to kill her to win because she was getting stronger.

No, Mace clearly didn't want to fight back, rather than just not wanting to kill her. He explicitly held back. The novel mentions that he needed to not hold back in order to win, but he held back.

Mace was doing everything he could to protect himself short of hurting her and she was finding ways to get through his guard. His defense was 100% but in a fight you need offense and that was the only thing he wasn't doing. The novel makes it clear that Mace should without question be the stronger of the two yet she pushed him back like he was a child. So, she wasn't getting stronger from Maces point of view, she was getting stronger for real. Which is the single point I am trying to make.

Of course Mace was unquestionably better and was losing because he was holding back.

We can see that through the darkside of the force and Vaapad, Mace was not the only one to ever receive this amp. Depa got it also and Mace had the choice to do it. But as we both know, the thing about Vaapad is you have to want to win and enjoy the fight and Windu did not enjoy fighting the girl he saw as his daughter he did not want to kill her. But he could certainly enjoy fighting and the idea of killing the man who he saw as the death of his one true love.

That makes no sense. Sora Bulq fell entirely to the dark side yet received no amplifications of this nature whatsoever, and he was better than Depa in everything. Also, when Mace referred to the dark, the dark and the dark side are different concepts. Vaapad only nears the dark side, as per Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force, and it doesn't directly use the dark side itself.

As I said before, I am not trying to prove that Depa was on Yoda/Sidious power level from this. Only that Depa was actively draw on the Force through Vaapad and making herself Windu's match and that Windu could have done the same and knew it but did not do so because as a choice. Which in turn would validate the idea of the Vaapad power boost.

The novel never mentioned that Depa's power increase was attributed to Vaapad, and the pelekotan backflow amplification was attributed to nearby akk guards dying, if I recall correctly.

It really doesn't validate anything. Depa getting stronger wasn't even attributed to Vaapad, and Mace was actively holding back in that encounter, so if he hadn't been doing so from the onset, he would have won regardless.

I have not made any leaping conclusions nor have a grasped at any straws. I've drawn very reasonable parallels from both Novels.

I never accused you of leaping to conclusions or grasping at straws, so this is a red herring.

It is just so hard to believe that Dooku is better than Mace .

Dooku is on Anakin's tier

Yoda made it clear in rots that Kenobi had absolutely NO chance against Sidious, but he can take on Anakin .

So Dooku is for sure 1 full tier below Sidious because Dooku lost from Anakin .

Dooku asked Palpatine what he should do if Anakin bests him , so Dooku knew he might of get defeated by Anakin , so it should be assumed he was going all out there .

So Dooku should be in Anakin's tier , while Sidious is a full tier above them, and i think everyone agrees on that .

Mace Windu is on Darth Sidious's tier

Windu defeated Sidious without extern factors .

Windu had no help, he was purely using his own resources , he was even commanded by Yoda not to go with the other jedi's because he needs to rest as he has been awake for too long .

And if Yoda his only reason for Windu not to go with the other jedi's is that he needs to rest, it means it is a big deal .

It should be assumed Sidious was not faking , and he was going all out for the following reasons :

- Sidious didn't want the republic to know he was a sith lord , and for that reason he would not let his sith lightsaber with his fingerprints on it lying around on a street in front of the senate .

-Sidious would never sacrifice his lightsaber because a lightsaber is a jedi / sith's life .

- There's official upper-canon text saying the following :

Anakin gave Sidious the opening he needed to blast Windu trough a window .

Source : http://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-sidious-biography-gallery

- Sidious tried to throw Windu out of the window for 50 meters, and didn't expect Windu to react to that so Sidious was not controlling the fight at all .

- If Sidious was trying to use Windu to bring over Anakin , then why did he hit Windu lightning first and not just try to directly persue Anakin before he shot lightning at Windu ? As this would make him less innocent and make Anakin's choice to hit Windu easier .

- George saying Windu overpowered Sidious .

- Not 1 accorded words so far from George saying Sidious faked the fight against Windu while there's no reason for George not telling this, so George doesn't acknowledge this theory .

So it should be assumed that Windu is in Sidious his tier.

Also there is absolutely no proof Windu got amped during that fight, only that he went more deep into vaapad than he had ever done , so nothing indicated he couldn't do this again .

And he also never needed to go so deep into vaapad , and if he did , he didn't do it because he didn't wanna risk losing himself to the darkside .

But a bloodlusted Windu doesn't care being lost to the darkside , so a bloodlusted Windu > Sidious .

And this is why i find it really hard to believe that Dooku could be better than Windu .

The fact is that Mace was so exponentially amped in that fight that using it here is laughable, and yes, there is proof. I've debated it more than enough times, and absolutely nobody has ever succeeded in proving otherwise, so at this point onwards, I refuse to debate the point anymore.

So people can believe what they want to.

@shootingnova: This is probably the longest debate I've ever had with you. Sort of a mini achievement. Anyway, lets continue.

So why was this brought up, again? Did you believe that if Mace was going to surrender himself to Vaapad in that instance, that he would have achieved a level of fighting proficiency equivalent to his state against Sidious?

No, I do not. It was brought up against for 2 reasons. 1)To show the situations are extremely simular. Enough so that a person could say they are the same. 2)Because Mace would have received an amp in general. Even if it wasn't like what he got with Sidious, he would get one. That alone is enough to counter the current idea that the SIdious/Mace amp was this 1 time thing which is all I'm talking about.

Not necessarily. Mace's breaking point more than likely was altered since Shatterpoint, and Mace was never stated to have been as shattered in Shatterpoint as he was in RotS. The Republic hadn't fallen by then, nor did he suspect that it would. As much as he loves Depa, the Republic is something he loves more.

Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. Who can say? But the novel stated clearly that he had reached and he was breaking. Nothing of that fact and be disputed. Thus, as I said above giving more credit the idea that there is more than one way for Mace to get a amp to his power. Maybe not as powerful as with Sidious, but an amp regardless.

If this was what you meant all along, then the pelekotan backflow is the Force, so it doesn't relate to Vaapad. The novel said that the pelekotan backflow was being gained as a result of the deaths of akk guards, IIRC, so what does that have to do with Mace choosing to amplify himself or not?

How does it not?

The only way he could survive was to give more of himself to Vaapad. To give all of himself.

To sink into pelekotaris dream.

Source:shatterpoint

Dude, how can you say that they are not related? From that quote they clearly are. If Mace chooses to give himself to Vaapad, he will be able to draw more power just Depa was doing. That is what it has to do with him making a choice to Amp himself.

Perhaps because Mace hadn't given in to them yet?

And in doing so, Mace would become more powerful as a result. He had the choice is my point.

No, Mace clearly didn't want to fight back, rather than just not wanting to kill her. He explicitly held back. The novel mentions that he needed to not hold back in order to win, but he held back.

Of course Mace was unquestionably better and was losing because he was holding back.

I've scanned over the fight a few times and cannot find this passage. Do you mind posing it for me? I see no where that says he needed to not hold back to win. In fact, take this for example:

He brought his blade back up from the pit and turned his wrist on the forehand so that his recovery stroke took her in the temple with his lightsaber's butt.

Source:Shatterpoint.

I really wish I could find that post by you that discuss not killing someone and holding back were different. But maybe that wasn't you. Anyway, above Mace could have killed Depa. That's obvious, but he did not want her death. If that is holding back, then all Jedi do that. But never the less, I would be grateful for the quote from the novel stating that Mace was doing so.

That makes no sense. Sora Bulq fell entirely to the dark side yet received no amplifications of this nature whatsoever, and he was better than Depa in everything. Also, when Mace referred to the dark, the dark and the dark side are different concepts. Vaapad only nears the dark side, as per Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force, and it doesn't directly use the dark side itself.

We that's not true. Mace say that Depa was better at Vaapad than He was while stating that Sora was Mastered By the style. Having never Mastered the style, it make sense. Also.

But only now am I beginning to understand how dark and near that danger is; I never guessed how close Haruun Kal has already brought me to that fatal brink.

It is a side effect of the Force immersion of Vaapad. My style grants great power, but at a terrible risk. Blood fever is a disease that can kill anyone it touches. To use Vaapad, you must allow yourself to enjoy the fight. You give yourself to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning.

This is why so few students even attempt the style.

Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.

Here in the jungle, that shadow fringe is unexpectedly shallow. Full night is only a step away.

I must be very, very careful here.

Or I may come to understand what's happened to Depa all too well.

Mace lowered his head. The electric sizzle of combat drained from his limbs, leaving them heavy and hurting:

Source:Shatterpoint

Shatterpoint is the best source for info on Vaapad given it told by Mace and we get his thoughts on it as its creator. He says very playing that the style is immersed in the force. And that's not hyperbole given that we know it has direct physical side effects on it's user. Even here we have more to say that the proper use of Vaapad will increase a persons power.

The novel never mentioned that Depa's power increase was attributed to Vaapad, and the pelekotan backflow amplification was attributed to nearby akk guards dying, if I recall correctly.

It really doesn't validate anything. Depa getting stronger wasn't even attributed to Vaapad, and Mace was actively holding back in that encounter, so if he hadn't been doing so from the onset, he would have won regardless.

Does it have to? I remember you being a a supporter of the Blog Silver did on Windu and Sidious. So, lets take a point from him. As I said before, my point is to prove exactly how much a like these to situations are. (Those being Windu's fight with Sidious and is fight with Depa) This is a quote from Silver.

More, it exposits on how Mace is immersed in Vaapad to a degree that had never been before, articulating that he was losing his individual being within it. Lastly, the novel outlines that in this fighting state, Mace was capable of absorbing Palpatine's darkness into himself and funneling it back out at him, which intensified Mace's power and speed.

and another

Vaapad also works to turn the darkness of the enemy against them, but this has its limitations. It does not equate to an instant victory against any dark sider. Because the amassment of darkness animates Vaapad, the more darkness there is in the user, the more potent Vaapad will be, and this is how Mace's abilities were amplified.

So, I'll ask again, does the novel need to say "Vaapad was the reason!" I don't think so. We already know what Vaapad is capable off. When on add on the fact that there is a backflow of dark force coming though them from the deaths caused by the war raging around them is going to increase the darkness that already exists in them. I pointed this out in a quote above were Mace explains how dangerous the use of Vaapad is due to the dark nature of the world he was on.

So what is the point of making that statement in the novel when it's something that is already a known ability of the style. This is basically an argument of silence.

As I have said, there is enough evidence here to suggest that Depa and Mace were both capable of amping themselves during this fight and that Mace did not because he did not want to kill Depa. If this is true than it is true at Mace can use Vaapad to amp himself.

Dooku one shots

Mace takes this.

@erkan12 Arrh. You created that just for me. Anywaym it is pretty much a curbstomp. Dooku is way more powerful in the force than Mace

Many people believe Windu was amped because Yoda was way better than Windu , yet Windu wins from Sidious while Yoda fails .

There is a perfect explanation for that and it's quite obvious as well .

It is confirmed by the director of the clone wars series that there was unbalance in the universe , and it gave any darkside user an amp, while it gave every lightside user a hinder .

This is why Windu could win from Sidious because Windu can shoot back the advantage that Sidious has compare to him , he ignores the darkside amp that Sidious and other darkside users have because he channels it back in power .

This is why Yoda failed to take on Sidious because he doesn't use a channel and therefore he is in a big disadvantage because he's powers are being limited while Sidious his powers get amped .

So in a balanced world Windu would still be better than Sidious, while Yoda would be better than any of them as he's lightside usage isn't limited any longer .

The amp Windu had is to me not a real amp .

It's just the fact that he makes the odds even with or without the unbalance in the universe at that time when facing dark side users .

That's why Anakin grow stronger when he became a sith , that's why Dooku can take on Kenobi but not Anakin , because Anakin also uses rage which to my opinion is using the darkside .

This would solve the Dooku / Kenobi / Anakin triangle , the Windu / Sidious / Yoda triangle , and much more .

While this doesn't contradict any source .

I suggest that from now on everyone adds to their OP if the fight takes place in an unbalanced world or balanced world .

I assume this OP is meant to be Balanced and therefore Windu would STOMP .

Tyrannus destroys Windu. Blitzes his him with force lightning, and then to slices him into bread pieces