Mace and Yoda Vs Sidious

At the end of ROTS If Yoda had come with Mace instead of the other Jedi Master, could they have defeated the Dark Lord? If so, why? If not, Why?

VS

Mace solos.

Mace alone could've beaten him if not for stupid anakin. yoda with him, sidious would be crying like a baby for mercy

Mace and Yoda should take this.

@ComocYahweh said:

Mace solos.

@darthmaulfistoman said:

Mace alone could've beaten him if not for stupid anakin. yoda with him, sidious would be crying like a baby for mercy

Mace would not have won that fight regardless of the presence of Anakin.

Sidious has my vote.

He'd kill Mace within the first couple seconds as he did the three Masters in the movie, giving Mace no time to amplify himself. The novel says the three Masters were dead before Mace even knew what happened. Then it comes down to Yoda vs Sidious and we all know how that went.

The first two posts are the epitome of ignorance. I would advise them to learn about the situation and understand it before making such rash posts.

Palpatine wins. He would have been able to kill all the Masters, but kept Windu to draw Anakin to the Dark Side. In fact, naturally, Windu lacked the ability to even react:

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

Then we have the fact that Palpatine had the ability to kill Windu with Lightning whenever he desired:

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

And finally, even though Mace was amped:

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—
And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

He only ever duelled Palpatine to an impasse, in other words, a stalemate:

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Additionally, as Silver, has noted, contrary to popular belief, Mace's ultimate disarming of Palpatine was not achieved through skill, it was achieved through Palpatine's fear that Mace exploited (the following two are Silver's exact quotes to illustrate the point):

Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.
One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

The problem is, all of this fear was not Palpatine's in the first place, in fact, it was Anakin's. Apparently, Palpatine had misdirected the sense of fear to make it seem like it was being projected by him.

"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."
"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"
"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."
Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel ismine?"
Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.
"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!"
He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—And Palpatine was not afraid.Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Which leads to an ultimate conclusion: it seems most likely that Palpatine set up the entire fight, as he did sense the Jedi Masters and Anakin's arrival prematurely.

The Coruscant nightfall was spreading through the galaxy. The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor's office; it was the darkness. Wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow could send perception. In the night, the shadow felt the boy's anguish, and it was good. The shadow felt the grim determination of four Jedi Masters approaching by air. This, too, was good.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Regarding the actual topic itself, Windu is slain before he can react, and then Palpatine subsequently defeats Yoda through superior Force power.

Wtf are you guys smoking, Mace was killing Sidious with his own lightning, and would have killed him if it wasn't for Anakin.

@ComocYahweh said:

Wtf are you guys smoking, Mace was killing Sidious with his own lightning, and would have killed him if it wasn't for Anakin.

Sidious threw the fight so he could turn Anakin to his side. There are so many indicators of this that it is mind boggling how people can believe Mace was truly capable of defeating Sidious.

@MorganFreeman said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Wtf are you guys smoking, Mace was killing Sidious with his own lightning, and would have killed him if it wasn't for Anakin.

Sidious threw the fight so he could turn Anakin to his side. There are so many indicators of this that it is mind boggling how people can believe Mace was truly capable of defeating Sidious.

Mace was even hesitant to kill him, if morals were off, he'd kill him instantly as he got the chance.

@ComocYahweh said:

Mace was even hesitant to kill him, if morals were off, he'd kill him instantly as he got the chance.

Actually, the novel proves just the opposite would happen. Sidious cleared the room of everyone but Mace before Mace even knew Sidious had killed the other 3 Masters.

@ComocYahweh said:

Wtf are you guys smoking, Mace was killing Sidious with his own lightning, and would have killed him if it wasn't for Anakin.

If you wish to continue to revel in your own ignorance, then that is fine.

If you read my post, you would know what MorganFreeman and I have been saying.

The hard part about star wars characters in the preqeuel trilog is they're so inconsistent. One fight Sidious is chucking those hovering things and blasting lightning all over the place against Yoda and the next he limits himself to dueling but ShootingNova has closed this case, Sidious wins.

@ShootingNova said:

The first two posts are the epitome of ignorance. I would advise them to learn about the situation and understand it before making such rash posts.

Palpatine wins. He would have been able to kill all the Masters, but kept Windu to draw Anakin to the Dark Side. In fact, naturally, Windu lacked the ability to even react:

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

Then we have the fact that Palpatine had the ability to kill Windu with Lightning whenever he desired:

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

And finally, even though Mace was amped:

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—
And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

He only ever duelled Palpatine to an impasse, in other words, a stalemate:

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Additionally, as Silver, has noted, contrary to popular belief, Mace's ultimate disarming of Palpatine was not achieved through skill, it was achieved through Palpatine's fear that Mace exploited (the following two are Silver's exact quotes to illustrate the point):

Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.
One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

The problem is, all of this fear was not Palpatine's in the first place, in fact, it was Anakin's. Apparently, Palpatine had misdirected the sense of fear to make it seem like it was being projected by him.

"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."
"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"
"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."
Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel ismine?"
Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.
"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!"
He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—And Palpatine was not afraid.Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Which leads to an ultimate conclusion: it seems most likely that Palpatine set up the entire fight, as he did sense the Jedi Masters and Anakin's arrival prematurely.

The Coruscant nightfall was spreading through the galaxy. The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor's office; it was the darkness. Wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow could send perception. In the night, the shadow felt the boy's anguish, and it was good. The shadow felt the grim determination of four Jedi Masters approaching by air. This, too, was good.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Precisely

@MorganFreeman said:

@ComocYahweh said:

Mace was even hesitant to kill him, if morals were off, he'd kill him instantly as he got the chance.

Actually, the novel proves just the opposite would happen. Sidious cleared the room of everyone but Mace before Mace even knew Sidious had killed the other 3 Masters.

How does that mean that he could actually beat Mace? It was already shown in the movie that Mace whooped Sidious's ass, he wins.

@ComocYahweh said:

How does that mean that he could actually beat Mace? It was already shown in the movie that Mace whooped Sidious's ass, he wins.

You mean the same movie which saw Sidious "lose" to Mace and go on to defeat the Jedi Order's best Jedi afterward?

Even barring all the Extended Universe, the movie makes it obvious Sidious let Mace corner him. Sidious goes from "Don't kill me, I'm too weak" to "UNLIMITED POWER!" the very second Anakin sides with Sidious.

Pretty much anything with star wars I take @Silver2467 or @JediXMan word for it.

I've been reading all posted above and couldn't help myself but point out few things:

1. All people playing smart here should not forget that only movie comes first and foremost as a canon!

2. Sidious vs Yoda ended up in a stalemate with Yoda having an edge before he fell down.

As for the the topic: team wins due to the number.......

@asIsuspected said:

I've been reading all posted above and couldn't help myself but point out few things:

1. All people playing smart here should not forget that only movie comes first and foremost as a canon!

2. Sidious vs Yoda ended up in a stalemate with Yoda having an edge before he fell down.

As for the the topic: team wins due to the number.......

Um.... what? This is Comicvine and since EU is comics that what's were using.

@asIsuspected said:

I've been reading all posted above and couldn't help myself but point out few things:

1. All people playing smart here should not forget that only movie comes first and foremost as a canon!

2. Sidious vs Yoda ended up in a stalemate with Yoda having an edge before he fell down.

As for the the topic: team wins due to the number.......

We take the EU as canon unless otherwise stated by OP.

@asIsuspected said:

1. All people playing smart here should not forget that only movie comes first and foremost as a canon!

And? What exactly did the movies do to illustrate the image of Windu stomping Palpatine effortlessly with Palaptine going all-out? Lucas himself has personally approved and edited ROTS novelization, hence it is G-Canon as well.

2. Sidious vs Yoda ended up in a stalemate with Yoda having an edge before he fell down.

No, it was not stalemate. It was only a stalemate in lightsaber duelling. Aside from that, Yoda lost:

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Although Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end the Sith bested him. He realized that continuing to directly confront Palpatine would mean failure. Defeated, Yoda slunk away into the shadow's of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

As for the the topic: team wins due to the number.......

No disrespect, but what kind of logic is that?

I refuse to participate in this discussion for what must be the hundredth time. It will only get me pissed off.

The gap between Mace and Yoda/Sideous was pretty big in my opinion. I mean, he couldn't sense Anikans rage building or feel the impending doom coming in a few seconds. I always thought Yoda would have saw that coming.

If Mace helped Yoda, I think he would get Yoda killed quick. Mace was the weak link of the two so he would have either died in a few seconds or gotten in Yodas way. Also, that crap about Mace fending off Sidious was just that...crap. Sidious knew anikan was on his way and probably foresaw the entire line up of events days before it happened, so he let Mace drop him right as Anikan walked in. It all worked out perfect. If Sidious wanted to kill Mace quick, he would have. There was a reason he took out all the other Masters first.

@ShootingNova: Question? Wouldn't it stand to reason that Yoda would protect Mace allowing him the chance to counter attack?

@JediXMan: Real talk, why did you even post? By that I mean, I had no idea it had been done before. It just crossed my mine and I was thinking if Mace and Yoda together couldn't, then he must be unstoppable.

Ultimately, why even comment just say you're not going to comment?

@Bossmonster:

Because in Star Wars threads, I'm typically expected to reply in some way, shape, or form.

It's not that this specific thread has been made before (maybe it has, I'm too lazy to check), but that the whole "Mace vs Palpatine" discussion has been brought up and debated to death. I can't stand talking to irritating people any longer. I reserve that discussion for specific people.

Sorry to be blunt about it, but it's true. And no, I don't mean you specifically - this is the first time I've even seen you around here, so...

@JediXMan: Well, I was actually involved in one of the Mace/Sidious deabtes and while there are still things unclear, you and Nova convinced me that Mace couldn't beat him. Though as I said, there are still things that make me questions. (That is mostly due to me reading the novels and comics less than you two)

The primary reason that I made this is because to me, you have two powerful Master her that may actually make up for the weaknesses the other has. I could have been all like "The entire Council vs Sidious" but that's pointless, If these two alone couldn't reasonable take Majority, than Sidious really is far more powerful than I ever really knew.

I just would like to understand why the two couldn't take him. If you have thoughts on that, I would be very interested to hear them.

The Team wins.

@Bossmonster:

Depends on the version. I don't think RotS Palpatine would lose, but there is that slim possibility.

They are not, however, defeating Palpatine at full power (after he returned after Vader defeated him in RotJ)

@Bossmonster: Well, Mace can't react, and Yoda actually fights slower than Palpatine (or else he would have fought faster than Dooku could see, and so on) but is fast enough to contend. However, he is still inferior in terms of speed, and that combined with the fact that we are discussing the RotS apprehension of Palpatine, the Jedi have no idea ho fast he can go.

And even if Mace was protected somehow from an initial speedblitz, Palpatine can easily overpower him with Lightning at any time he desires.

@MorganFreeman said:

@ComocYahweh said:

How does that mean that he could actually beat Mace? It was already shown in the movie that Mace whooped Sidious's ass, he wins.

You mean the same movie which saw Sidious "lose" to Mace and go on to defeat the Jedi Order's best Jedi afterward?

Even barring all the Extended Universe, the movie makes it obvious Sidious let Mace corner him. Sidious goes from "Don't kill me, I'm too weak" to "UNLIMITED POWER!" the very second Anakin sides with Sidious.

There is no proof that he would let himself be cornered, in their fight scene it looked like Sidious was struggling pretty hard. Sidious is a better force user and evil master mind, but going into a lightsaber duel against Mace is a bad idea for an old man like him.

Neither alone could defeat him, but together, yes, I believe they could!

Mace/Yoda the same time is too much

@asIsuspected said:

1. All people playing smart here should not forget that only movie comes first and foremost as a canon!

And? What exactly did the movies do to illustrate the image of Windu stomping Palpatine effortlessly with Palaptine going all-out? Lucas himself has personally approved and edited ROTS novelization, hence it is G-Canon as well. 

 
I never said Windy > Sidious...anyone who watched the movie should know that a temporal loss to Mace was part of Palpatine's plan in turning Anakin to the Darkside. I was rather referring to the false statements such as Sidious stomps both Yoda and Mace working together against him when he obviously doesn't have such a power.

2. Sidious vs Yoda ended up in a stalemate with Yoda having an edge before he fell down.

No, it was not stalemate. It was only a stalemate in lightsaber duelling. Aside from that, Yoda lost:

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Although Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end the Sith bested him. He realized that continuing to directly confront Palpatine would mean failure. Defeated, Yoda slunk away into the shadow's of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia 

 
Yes, it was stalemate like it or not. The movie showed their battle as a pure stalemate with Yoda being more balanced and calm during the fight. Any other interpritation of that fight based on book or other source would be just speculation and assumption based on someone's preferences.

As for the the topic: team wins due to the number.......

No disrespect, but what kind of logic is that?

 
Oh, but my logic is very simple: if Sidious cant kill Yoda 1 on 1 then with the help of Mace the Grand Master should emerge victorious.....  

Sidious takes this due to the reasons stated above.

He fabricated the loss to Mace in order to cement Anakin's defection to the Sith. We must remember that Sidious moved so fast in the start of the duel that he took out three Jedi Masters before Mace could even do anything.

We also have the fact that he dueled Yoda to a stalemate later on, who is considered to be the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. All showing indicate that Sidious is a better duelist than Mace, and possesses far more power and affinity for the Force than either Yoda or Mace.

Mace solos.

He was beating Sidious down and would've finished the job if not for Anakin.

@logy5000 said:

Mace solos.

He was beating Sidious down and would've finished the job if not for Anakin.

Mace vs. an All Out ROTS Sidious dies very quickly.

The only reason Mace stuck around in his duel with Sidious is that Sidious had to keep him alive to "expose" the Jedi Order's "treason" to Anakin in order to cement his defection to the Sith Order.

Palpatine had already planted the seed of doubt in Anakin with the Darth Plagueis legend, and the promise that he could help him save Padme from what Anakin viewed as certain death. Anakin seeing him cornered and helpless against Mace, who's own nature guaranteed that Mace would try to kill a "defenseless" Palpatine out of neccesity (something Anakin had deep regrets about doing to Dooku) would essentially force Anakin's hand in order to protect Padme from death. After the fact, Anakin would have little choice but to pledge himself to Sidious.

We have showings of Sidious moving so fast that Mace couldn't react before Palpatine had already killed three of the Jedi Masters accompanying Mace to arrest him. Sidious could simply speedblitz Mace before he had the time to sink into Vaapad, the only thing that kept him alive during the duel Sidious had fabricated to stall until Anakin could show up.

Sidious doesn't take this in a cakewalk, but I view Mace as a liability rather than an asset to Yoda in this fight. If Yoda could not overcome Palpatine on his own merit, then I doubt that Mace would make a difference in this fight, as I view the gap between Mace and Yoda as being pretty substantial, both in regards to the Force and in lightsaber skill.

Force Ability:

Palpatine >> Yoda >>>> Mace

Lightsaber Skill

Palpatine > Yoda >> Mace

@ComocYahweh said:

There is no proof that he would let himself be cornered, in their fight scene it looked like Sidious was struggling pretty hard. Sidious is a better force user and evil master mind, but going into a lightsaber duel against Mace is a bad idea for an old man like him.

I posted some proof in the very post you quoted. You can attempt a rebuttal against that and "losing" to Mace only to go on and defeat Yoda point I made.

@JediXMan said:

I refuse to participate in this discussion for what must be the hundredth time. It will only get me pissed off.

This won't mean much coming from a new user but I can understand why you feel this way.

@asIsuspected said:

I never said Windy > Sidious...anyone who watched the movie should know that a temporal loss to Mace was part of Palpatine's plan in turning Anakin to the Darkside. I was rather referring to the false statements such as Sidious stomps both Yoda and Mace working together against him when he obviously doesn't have such a power.

I never said he stomps both.

Yes, it was stalemate like it or not. The movie showed their battle as a pure stalemate with Yoda being more balanced and calm during the fight. Any other interpritation of that fight based on book or other source would be just speculation and assumption based on someone's preferences.

No, it was not. I posted a canonical sourcebook proving this, especially since Yoda lost his ground. This is simply your interpretation, which has absolutely no factor in canon at all.

Oh, but my logic is very simple: if Sidious cant kill Yoda 1 on 1 then with the help of Mace the Grand Master should emerge victorious.....

He can if there isn't any running away. The point is, Mace can do nothing here except die.

@ShootingNova said:

@Bossmonster: Well, Mace can't react, and Yoda actually fights slower than Palpatine (or else he would have fought faster than Dooku could see, and so on) but is fast enough to contend. However, he is still inferior in terms of speed, and that combined with the fact that we are discussing the RotS apprehension of Palpatine, the Jedi have no idea ho fast he can go.

And even if Mace was protected somehow from an initial speedblitz, Palpatine can easily overpower him with Lightning at any time he desires.

Wait. I was only talking about the movie versions of the characters. Not the EU information. I enjoy reading your and other peoples post about it, but I really don't even know enough to try to make a debate.

However, I do believe that Sidious was a beast in the movie. So, if figure a good gauge of his ability would be to put him against the two best of the order since 1 v 1 (the movie) was a bit unclear about him vs Mace and 1 v1 Yoda seems to have lost due to his extremely long fall. Sidious was struggling to get back to his spot after the burst of force.

@JediXMan: If i didn't, I though it was made clear in the OP that this was ROTS characters only. That's the opinion I was interested in what people had. I heard somewhere else that EU Sidious could near destroy entire planets. I personally don't get why he would lose at all. But like I said above, I really don't know much about the EU

@Bossmonster: You didn't specify purely movie versions. You simply said RotS, which includes the RotS novelization (which is both approved and edited by Lucas, making it G-Canon).

@ShootingNova: I see. I made a mistake then. It was my intent. Kinda killed the thread then.

@MorganFreeman said:

@JediXMan said:

I refuse to participate in this discussion for what must be the hundredth time. It will only get me pissed off.

This won't mean much coming from a new user but I can understand why you feel this way.

Mm. Once you've seen one ignorant comment, you've essentially seen them all. And with the horde of Mace fans out there, it's just a pointless debate now.

@JediXMan: It isn't necessarily Mace fans, it's just people unaware of the fact or unable to accept it. Or just...... I don't know what to say.

I am going with team.

IM prettty sure Mace did beat Sidious on his own(but interfered by anakin) , and Yoda held his own both with sword skill and force ability in the movie. Sidious didn't really WHOOP yoda, but had a higher ground. which helped more plus dark force is stronger than Yodas aging force, but yoda still lived to fight another day and no severe injuries.

So i Say given Yoda and Mace's dynamic in both superior veteran status on the council and the expectations going into the fight Sidious would've been cast down pretty easily.

@ShootingNova said:

@JediXMan: It isn't necessarily Mace fans, it's just people unaware of the fact or unable to accept it. Or just...... I don't know what to say.

Mace fanboys. Possibly the worst of Star Wars fanboys. I had a guy tell me that Mace > Grandmaster Luke.

@JediXMan said:

Mace fanboys. Possibly the worst of Star Wars fanboys.

Nihilus fans are probably the worst. Nothing tops some guy at university saying Nihilus could wipe out the Death Star with the Emperor and Vader in it as he did with Kataar.

Sidious wins,,anyone saying mace had palpatine beat is deluding themselves or wasnt paying attention,,,in order to ensure Annakins trek toward the dark side he needed him to turn on mace,,thus proving his loyalty to palpatine,,and by later destroying the other Jedi at the temple he proved his allegiance to the dark side

@JediXMan said:

Mace fanboys. Possibly the worst of Star Wars fanboys. I had a guy tell me that Mace > Grandmaster Luke.

I haven't really ran into Mace fanboys, but is it possible for them to surpass the Revanites? Because, that's kinda shocking