Each team will have an hour to scout around the battle location to know the location
Both teams have 3 hours of prep to prepare for the battle gathering weapons they have possessed in the past or items or resources. Nothing too powerful like Cosmic Cubes or such.
Both teams have basic knowledge on each other
Win by KO, in-capitation, battle field removal or death
Battle field removal is allowed
Morals are off for this battle
Both teams are fighting to the best of they're abilities
@beatboks1: aaaaaahhhhhh we meet again!!!! guess this will sate my appetite until we can get that CaV going!!! Shall you do the honors here in opening or shall I? and should we put up intos to characters (even though we know them well, for the reader's sake?)
one point that is important here..........I am using Pym in his entirety. That means he is utilizing his minaturized tech, pym particles, shrinking and growing capabilities (and the increased strength that goes along with it), "repulsor" style blasts he used as yellow jacket, and insect cybernetic control. I will not use "rover" however or any Ultron or jocastas :)
@higorm: of course man, i usually tag you in for votings (as I value your opinion. BTW......what about that rating on me huh??!!??? I have a thread in particular I would like you to check out, PM me please)
Don't have much need for prep or weapon gathering all I need is with my team.
First advantage I have is that Cosmically aware really doesn't have a good leader. Pym might be a genius but he's never lead much of anything successfully. I on the other hand have Liberty Belle who was the chairwoman and commander of the largest super hoer team in the history of comicdom the All Star Squadron. A team with over 70 members and she lead them in a time of war to defend American shores. That combined with the fact that her team mates here are the legacy characters of former members of her team who respect and admire her and will willingly follow her lead means I have a far more cohesive team more likely to act as such and in unison.
Frankly Stargirl of my team can solo this and end it in seconds just like she single handed took down the Injustice Society
This was back when she was just Star Spangled Kid and only had the limited power of the Cosmic Converter belt. Now with the Cosmic Rod she can do vastly more. Even with only the Belt's force field, blasts and the physical enhancements it gives her she could take out any one or all of your team.
Add in the cosmic Rod and all the energy manip, not to mention cosmic power it grants her and this becomes even easier. The rod allows her complete control over the entire electromagnetic Spectrum and gravity. Basically it's like combining Dr light, magneto and Gravitron. This is in addition to her being physically a 50 tonner with enhanced speed and blast, flight etc without it just with the belt.
Second there is Liberty Belle and her sonic waves. Sonic Waves that can throw even baron Blitzcrieg around like a rag doll.
Single handed she dealt with both the Baron and Zyklon who was a Flash level speedster. That mind you is the same Baron Blitz who could do this to Superman
In Young All stars when they faced the Sons of Dawn ( a tribe with the same power level as Arn Munro the post COIE GA Superman replacement) she was just as easily tossing a few of them around at the same time.
Finally I have Nulkon who can take out some of your players when they might believe they are completely unable to be touched. Firestorm may be able to become intangible but that's no issue for the man who can control his own molecular deniisty
When your up against a guy who can alter his molecular density to become intangible or ultra dense and impervious, can alter his mass to strike with far greater striking power than his strength would generate (which is an impressive 80 odd tons on it's own) a physical confrontation becomes very hard to win even when your more powerful than him. His ability to alter his mass is even why he can strike Black Adam hard enough to do damage to him.
Gallery
This is without his ability to grow in the mix. not to mention his super strength and durability
Now let's look at the battle field, looks like we're in the middle of a canyon. I wonder what sort of advantage could be gained by say a team member who can cause the right sound vibration wave combined by another who can adjust gravity to suit their need. I'd say with pretty little effort we can bring this battle field down around your ears without too much difficulty.
Basically I have a team consisting of one team member you can't touch unless he allows it and two more who can throw up force fields making them pretty well defended too. Firestorm is probably the only one who can touch Nuklon with his phasing but unlike Nukon I can't think of a single feat of him using it against another phaser.
Team Comparison
You have a team of three very versatile individuals but they have no connection, no team dynamic and absolutely no reason to work well together. You have no effective leader, no Knows strategist
Me team on the other hand know each other intimately. have an established team chemistry. Two of them are team mates the other is the mother of another. A mother that one grew up knowing. They have an established leader with a tactical history. A history that includes leading teams against the tactical minds and genius' like Ultra Humanite, Vandal Savage, Per Degaton, Brain wave, and more. She was successful after all in escaping Nazi held Europe with the Nazi's after her.
I'm going to have better team cohesion, better team interaction, and better tactical plans.
Stargirl can make all the tech Pym used in West Coast Avengers when he was just called Pym useless with her energy manip denying him power sources. As Giant man he's not as effective as Nuklon who can grow to the same hights who's super strength from base hight (70 to 80 tons) actually increases further as he grows and can additionally alter his mass. As Ant man he will be decimated by the most minute sonic wave attack of LB. he's less than useless here. Both LB and Nuklon have dealt with powerhouses like SS and Firestorm just isn't enough on his own I'm afraid.
@beatboks1: fantastic man, just what I expect from you! you are not going to make this easy lol! I will have mine up finally today, just finished off another match that had my attention.
@beatboks1: fantastic man, just what I expect from you! you are not going to make this easy lol! I will have mine up finally today, just finished off another match that had my attention.
@beatboks1: lol, you have never made anything easy by far! that's why i like debating with you, I feel that I learn quite a bit from each one. Alright, finally able to dedicate some time to this............
Don't have much need for prep or weapon gathering all I need is with my team.
the only route I'm going here is Pym. He obtains and has acces to: all minaturized tech as was showing in WCA run, plenty of Pym Particles, minaturized Ant Man helmet, suit outfitted with Yellowjacket "repulsors" and the such. I'm sure you get the picture.
First advantage I have is that Cosmically aware really doesn't have a good leader. Pym might be a genius but he's never lead much of anything successfully.
True. Pym hasn"t been uber successful as a team leader but not overtly worried about it. With much higher powersets and versatility here it's really just a matter of divide and conquer.
Frankly Stargirl of my team can solo this and end it in seconds
Ahhhhhh nope. I will provide why in a bit, but Courtney's not soloing anything here.
Add in the cosmic Rod and all the energy manip, not to mention cosmic power it grants her and this becomes even easier. The rod allows her complete control over the entire electromagnetic Spectrum and gravity
Really? c'mon man...................Firestorm is all I have to say. Transmutation master. Will go into that more in a bit though. I am pretty familiar and wondering when Courtney has shown complete control over the entire electromagnetic spectrum though. Don'y get me wrong, I am not downplaying Courtney and am well aware of her abilities and feel that she underrated often. In this instance however she is facing two foes that can negate her abilities (Firestorm and Super Skrull)
Second there is Liberty Belle and her sonic waves. Sonic Waves that can throw even baron Blitzcrieg around like a rag doll
Formidable indeed. Countermeasures for that include Skrull's forcesheilds and Nova flame intensity flames and wide variety of Firestorm transmutations. Please explain how she will be able to create sonic vibrations when encased in a block of titanium?
or how LB (or any other member of your team for that matter) will be able to function after Firestorm simply transmutes the air surrounding their heads into ether or some other KO gas?
Now let's look at the battle field, looks like we're in the middle of a canyon. I wonder what sort of advantage could be gained by say a team member who can cause the right sound vibration wave combined by another who can adjust gravity to suit their need. I'd say with pretty little effort we can bring this battle field down around your ears without too much difficulty.
sure we are in the middle of a canyon, filled with material to be transmuted. How about the matter all transformed into KO gas (while Skrull and Pym stay safely inside a Forcefield bubble and Pym has his own air supply from Ant Man helmet...have the scans and will show later if needed), or intense Volcanic eruptions, or all the air around your members into Prometium or any other thousands of ways to entrap?
Basically I have a team consisting of one team member you can't touch unless he allows it and two more who can throw up force fields making them pretty well defended too. Firestorm is probably the only one who can touch Nuklon with his phasing but unlike Nukon I can't think of a single feat of him using it against another phaser
I have an interesting skill set in one of my combatants that probably would provide pretty effective against Nuklon.
How will you prevent Al from being Hypnotized? He has used this against Sasquatch and the Thing previously. And using Invisibility tactics (which were effective enough against Thor and Grey Hulk) he can easily get close enough, either immobilize (fantastic's stretching, forcebubble, torch flame) by getting the drop on him or stun with a blast or punch..... and hypnotize or the infamous 'brain bubble' tactic (considering no morals I would say that's a good tactic)
and as far as Pym goes........
Stargirl can make all the tech Pym used in West Coast Avengers when he was just called Pym useless with her energy manip denying him power sources. As Giant man he's not as effective as Nuklon who can grow to the same hights who's super strength from base hight (70 to 80 tons) actually increases further as he grows and can additionally alter his mass. As Ant man he will be decimated by the most minute sonic wave attack of LB. he's less than useless here.
calling Pym 'less than useless' is quite the bold statement. let's break this down.....
He is using all his feats as personas cohesively here.
So imagine calling in ants and insects to flood into one of your characters bodies (disrupting concentration) and then simply shrinking YOU with Pym particles?
Gallery
which I say he will do here as soon as he gets his hands on one of you. It has worked on all varied of power sets (including Wonder Man's ionic fueled body) and he has shown quick reaction times in doing so.......
Gallery
Stargirl shutting down his minaturized tech? does she do something like that often? What if she doesn't see it coming? even so, what's to stop her from being affected by a minaturized Pym in Ant Man size whom could affect her internally such as inner ear KO?
and as far as facing Nuklon in enlarged size if applicable, well the his strength levels in that size are formidable and he would use other tech as well in conjuction as he can use all persona feats. Hawkeye even stated that when he was in Goliath 'mode' his strength was registered as 'hercules levels'
and let's not overlook that the fact that Pym has been dubbed 'The Scientist Supreme'. I don't forsee him having any issues with Stargirl's tech, or being able to compensate in some way. Hank is uber genius level and especially with tech.
sure. beatboks always whoops me, so tryin for some redemption here (.................*crosses fingers*........................) but at least I learn from the encounters and that's all that matters.
I like how force fields will work to protect Pym from KO gas but not Courtney or Libby. You have to be kidding right.
The force fields put out by the old Gravity rod alone withstood the blasts of Vulcan Son of fire in All Star comics 61. the same Vulcan who's blasts shattered the shields of Alan Scot and put Classic Dr Fate in a coma ( and he had Superman level durability even without his magic). But somehow Firestorm ( who's not even close to Vulcan's level, a guy who can solo several JSAers) is going to get through them with consummate ease?? Yeah that makes a lot of sense NOT.
Gallery
This was the earlier Star Rod, the cosmic Rod that Courtney uses is VASTLY more powerful.
In Ted Knights own words far inferior to a cosmic rod like the one wielded by Courtney (in fact in All Star Comics it was even stated to be inferior to Sylvester's Cosmic Converter belt) So Courtney actually has TWO superior powered devices than one that tanked a greater powerhouse than anyone on your team.
As for electromagnetic spectrum
Gallery
Here's a few from the inferior Gravity rod that is no where near as powerful as Courtney's Cosmic Rod.
How will you prevent Al from being Hypnotized?
Soul possession is a hell of a lot more effective means of coercion and control than mere hymnosis and Courtney has the answer to those.
Stargirl shutting down his minaturized tech?
Actually yes, Here she completely drained the energy from several city blocks and blacked out a huge area of the city to create a distraction for a school hostage situation. What exactly does Pym use that doesn't require energy ??? Stand by my statement of him being next to useless. When up against someone who can simply shut down or remove the power from every device he can use he is.
What if she doesn't see it coming?
Cosmic Knowledge man, how will she not see it coming?? The Cosmic Rod alerts her to much, it allows the user to even track someones essence.
as far as facing Nuklon in enlarged size if applicable, well the his strength levels in that size are formidable
The thing is that Nuklon is 80 toner at normal size. With his ability to increase his mass he can use that 80 ton strength to throw blows that hurt even Black Adam etc. It's like Flash with IMP he can make his arms mass almost nothing throw a blow with all his strength and them make the mass much much greater. When he grows his strength grows to. In 52 while at max height he actually held a flying fighter jet. Think about that for a moment, they are capable of mach 18 so have the thrust to make the two to three ton mass of the craft move at 6125 m/s f =ma if his strength can make a change 4000 *6125 (24500880) then it could lift 12,250 tons. In COIE when at half height he held up a 5 or 6 story hospital, n average apartment building is 12 to 14 tons per floor and their ground area is about a quarter that of a hospital. You simply don't have feats that compare.
I don't forsee him having any issues with Stargirl's tech, or being able to compensate in some way. Hank is uber genius level and especially with tech.
The problem for you here is that Stargirl's tech goes beyond pure tech. Ted Knight discovered a certain energy frequency / wavelength that he tapped to power his cosmic devices. It's the energy that links all celestial bodies
As these god's stated she wields cosmic energy. You brought a measly matter manipulator to my herald of Galactus, a scientist to my character with not one but two devices that draw power from the greatest power source in the universe.
Formidable indeed. Countermeasures for that include Skrull's forcesheilds and Nova flame intensity flames and wide variety of Firestorm transmutations. Please explain how she will be able to create sonic vibrations when encased in a block of titanium?
Your kidding right ?? Do you understand how SOUND works??? Sound as a vibration travels through solids as well as air. In fact in metals there are TWO vibrational waves longitudinal and transverse as apposed to only longitudinal in air. The Transverse acoustic waves travel at right angles to the longitudinal. The denser the metal the faster the sound waves will travel through it. So basically you just made her Sound waves faster and travelling in a far wider area covering more ground than she could on her own.
Essentially even if she can't get the exact frequency to shatter the metal you just enhanced her shock wave immensely. Considering that the strength of them before was enough to throw a guy around who has been referred to as being as strong as the EARTH 2 Wonder Woman ( who's stronger by quite a bit than Earth 1 or New Earth- her best feat is to lasso a planet and pull it ). A guy who could match Uncle Sam when America was a war and full of ultra Patriots raising his power level ( during this period he psionic feats actually matched the Spectre of the era, imagine what his physical feats would be amped to). Your boosting the strength of her shock waves by increasing their speed doesn't bode well for you at all. maybe Pym's not as bright as you think
@beatboks1: ok man, got some time to reply now. good times.
I will say first off that you have an intricate knowledge of your team members (as always). kudos.
I like how force fields will work to protect Pym from KO gas but not Courtney or Libby. You have to be kidding right
lol, well i wasn't really focusing on that as a main strategy. It was more of a comment really/ I'm sure if Courtney utilized shielding if the entire cavern was filled with KO gas, they would be shielded adequately. Didn't make any comments in regards to her shielding capabilities either way. The point is WAS trying to make was more along the lines of Firestorm's versatility and that the entire cavern was fuel for his abilities.
The force fields put out by the old Gravity rod alone withstood the blasts of Vulcan Son of fire in All Star comics 61. the same Vulcan who's blasts shattered the shields of Alan Scot and put Classic Dr Fate in a coma ( and he had Superman level durability even without his magic). But somehow Firestorm ( who's not even close to Vulcan's level, a guy who can solo several JSAers) is going to get through them with consummate ease?? Yeah that makes a lot of sense NOT
Not sure exactly what you are referring to man? I never stated anything about Firestorm 'getting through' any type of force fields. Glad your talking about the old gravity rod, because it's being used here? lol, I'm being a smartass now, I understand the point you are making, I get it. Ted Knight made some sweet gear. cool. What is relevant here is Firestorm's versatility and unique power set. Let's talk about that a bit real quick.
Firestorm has the ability to rearrange the atomic and subatomic structure of inorganic matter, rearranging subatomic particles to create objects of different atomic characteristics of equal mass. He can not only change and transmute the atomic composition of an object (e.g., transmuting lead into gold of equal mass) but he can also change its shape. Is it true that all matter is simply condensed energy? Pretty much. If you can get enough energy into one place (generally light or kinetic energy), then you’ll get a (mostly random) variety of particles popping out. The conversion between mass and energy is so ubiquitous in physics, that most physicists only know the mass of particles in the context of their equivalent energy. The only thing that keeps particles from turning back into energy (again, usually light and kinetic) are “conserved quantities”. If you’ve taken an intro physics course you should be familiar with conservation of energy and momentum.
So the point I'm trying to simply make here is that (as you have pointed out), Courtney uses Cosmic Energy. Ok. Well then, Firestorm will be able to counter-act her.
Also what's to say that Firestorm (considering Morals off) wouldn't transmute her clothing into mustard gas, nuclear waste, sulfuric acid, etc......
In Ted Knights own words far inferior to a cosmic rod like the one wielded by Courtney (in fact in All Star Comics it was even stated to be inferior to Sylvester's Cosmic Converter belt) So Courtney actually has TWO superior powered devices than one that tanked a greater powerhouse than anyone on your team.
greater powerhouse than anybody on my team. huh. okay then. suuuuuuuuuure.
let me show you real quick some of 'powerhouse feats' from team:
Super Skrull =
Gallery
vs Surfer
Gallery
vs Thor showings
Firestorm =
Gallery
showings against Kalibak, Cap Atom, Yellow Lanterns, DC Villians Group, Manhunter
Hank Pym =
too many to show right now.
How will you prevent Al from being Hypnotized? Soul possession is a hell of a lot more effective means of coercion and control than mere hymnosis and Courtney has the answer to those
Sweet! couple issues here though................
We are talking Al not Courtney. How will she use that personally on Al? because in that storyarc she used that personally and was not able to transfer that ability to anybody else.
Soul possession and Hypnosis are two entirely different things. like comparing apples and oranges.
Once again.................how does that apply to Al??? Show me her curing somebody else of something of the sort and I will agree with you. If not..............it stands. Al gets hypnotized.
Actually yes, Here she completely drained the energy from several city blocks and blacked out a huge area of the city to create a distraction for a school hostage situation. What exactly does Pym use that doesn't require energy ??? Stand by my statement of him being next to useless. When up against someone who can simply shut down or remove the power from every device he can use he is.
Once again you're calling an abstract labeled scientist supreme next to useless? wow, what are you smoking down under bro? Courney's tech is .................tech to Pym. Did Ted Knight create life? did he create groundbreaking accomplishments into dimensional travel? nope. he tapped into an energy source. now that has never been done before lol. Are you saying that Courtney can negate Pym particles?
Cosmic Knowledge man, how will she not see it coming?? The Cosmic Rod alerts her to much, it allows the user to even track someones essence
Dang, I didn't know Courtney had 'Cosmic Awareness'!!! I must've missed that somewhere.....can you show me some scans of that please? Just because I don't recall instances of it is all, I would like them for my JSA feats file. Also tracking something (akin to a tracer?) is much different that a 'warning defense system' (such as spidey sense) against attacks.
The thing is that Nuklon is 80 toner at normal size. With his ability to increase his mass he can use that 80 ton strength to throw blows that hurt even Black Adam etc. It's like Flash with IMP he can make his arms mass almost nothing throw a blow with all his strength and them make the mass much much greater. When he grows his strength grows to. In 52 while at max height he actually held a flying fighter jet. Think about that for a moment, they are capable of mach 18 so have the thrust to make the two to three ton mass of the craft move at 6125 m/s f =ma if his strength can make a change 4000 *6125 (24500880) then it could lift 12,250 tons. In COIE when at half height he held up a 5 or 6 story hospital, n average apartment building is 12 to 14 tons per floor and their ground area is about a quarter that of a hospital. You simply don't have feats that compare.
Wow! That's impressive, I like how you use facts and such....I'm working on that as well. Ok then lets's break this down....
As far as strength levels go At giant size, Pym's strength varies according to the height he achieves: at 10 feet tall, Pym can lift (press) 1000 pounds, at 25 feet tall he can lift (press) 10 tons. The higher Pym grows past 25 feet, the more of his strength he had to use simply to support his own enormous mass. At 100 feet tall, Pym can lift (press) 50 tons. He is capable of Class 100 strength at heights beyond 100 feet tall, though he usually cannot maintain those gigantic sizes for long. So you probably got me there.
As far as the reference of the Flying Fighter jet.
Pretty impressive indeed. As far as feats that compare you may be right but I can think of one good one (may not be match but , ah well....) Pym as Giant man faced off against Absorbing man in Avengers Academy #7. Here:
Gallery
Some interesting points of consideration here. in scan #1, note the height they are at.
The Emporis Standards Committee defines a high-rise building as "a multi-story structure between 35–100 meters tall, or a building of unknown height from 12–39 floors" and a skyscraper as "a multi-story building whose architectural height is at least 100 m or 330 ft." Some structural engineers define a highrise as any vertical construction for which wind is a more significant load factor than earthquake or weight. Note that this criterion fits not only high-rises but some other tall structures, such as towers.
In scan #2, Creel appears to have absorbed various elements. Theses elements would give him increased strength (including brick, some sort of metals, etc...). Now he swings his enlarged ball and chain he carries which could be considered to a wrecking ball no?
Wrecking balls range from about 1,000 pounds (450 kg) to around 12,000 pounds (5,400 kg). The ball is made from forged steel, which means the steel is not cast into a mold in a molten state. It is formed under very high pressure while the steel is red hot (soft but not molten) to compress and to strengthen it. Considering the force behind the swung object the heavier something is, the more inertia it has, and the harder it is to get it to move................ and Pym stops it with his hand and without any distinguishable effort. No feats to compare?
#3,4,5 just..........wow.
In conclusion........IF a simple size and strength brawl is what is was going for here..............probably could hang. BUT that's not my strategy. Do remember that Pym has all his other feat abilities as well at this time.
Your kidding right ?? Do you understand how SOUND works??? Sound as a vibration travels through solids as well as air. In fact in metals there are TWO vibrational waves longitudinal and transverse as apposed to only longitudinal in air. The Transverse acoustic waves travel at right angles to the longitudinal. The denser the metal the faster the sound waves will travel through it. So basically you just made her Sound waves faster and travelling in a far wider area covering more ground than she could on her own.
lol, yes sir I understand how sound works. However Explain to me how she will accomplish all this when as soon as she is encapsulated the air around her head is turned to Ether and she is knocked out?
Essentially even if she can't get the exact frequency to shatter the metal you just enhanced her shock wave immensely. Considering that the strength of them before was enough to throw a guy around who has been referred to as being as strong as the EARTH 2 Wonder Woman ( who's stronger by quite a bit than Earth 1 or New Earth- her best feat is to lasso a planet and pull it ). A guy who could match Uncle Sam when America was a war and full of ultra Patriots raising his power level ( during this period he psionic feats actually matched the Spectre of the era, imagine what his physical feats would be amped to).
Ok. Couple things here.........
her "shock waves" weren't throwing anybody around in that scan. She hurled The Liberty Bell into him which weighs 2080 pounds which is just shy of a metric ton.
And he was caught off guard. So bad on him actually for not blocking if he's so powerful. Now how is that really impressive? c'mon now..............
Your boosting the strength of her shock waves by increasing their speed doesn't bode well for you at all. maybe Pym's not as bright as you think
well, that's not really a factor now is it? and BTW what does Pym have to do with that when it was Firestorm that performed the action?
and, back to you for now I guess. I wanna lay out how I think this is really gonna go down next post.
@cosmicallyaware1: When you suggested the KO gas and gave Hanks force field as a suggested protection for your team it inferred that none of my teams force fields would cope. Courtney's certainly will and Libby's force waves will too.
greater powerhouse than anybody on my team. huh. okay then. suuuuuuuuuure.
All you have to do to prove me wrong is show anyone on your team single handedly defeated a team with powerhouses like Alan Scot, CLASSIC Dr fate, Powergirl,
Gallery
So when you can show any member of your team shattering shields as powerful as Alan Scot's, KOing someone like powergirl, and braking the spells of CLASSIC Dr fate and putting him in a coma then you can say they are a greater powerhouse than Vulcan. The fact is you can't say this because they aren't.All you feats are irreverent because Classic Fate had the energy and matter manipulation powers of Silver Surfer + the Physcial powers of Superman + the magic of Classic Strange. I didn't see a single feat that had any of your team defeating SS+ Supes + Classic Strange and that was only omne member of the team Vulcan soloed. So the argument stands.
It was Sylvester Pemberton who single handedly took Vulcan down after he had smashed the rest of the JSA with only one cosmic device (not two like Courtney has) and a less powered one than either that Courtney has.
Sweet! couple issues here though................
We are talking Al not Courtney. How will she use that personally on Al? because in that storyarc she used that personally and was not able to transfer that ability to anybody else.
Soul possession and Hypnosis are two entirely different things. like comparing apples and oranges.
Once again.................how does that apply to Al??? Show me her curing somebody else of something of the sort and I will agree with you. If not..............it stands. Al gets hypnotized.
Courtney is in my team and freed the mind of Hourman by her mere presence
Actually it's more like comparing different types of apples, especially when you take into consideration that the one she freed from "Soul possession" didn't have a soul to be possessed ( being a machine and all)
In Stars and stripes IIRC her mere presence once again released a student from some mind controlling ray that altered the brain chemistry ( that one is an orange by comparison but agian shows more evidence of her cosmic converter belt clearing mental control forms now of varying type and degree). Also in Stars and Stripes the Dragon King Hypnotized her to fight Pat but the belt freed her from it and overrode the hypnosis ray controlling others.
Once again you're calling an abstract labeled scientist supreme next to useless? wow, what are you smoking down under bro? Courney's tech is .................tech to Pym.
Did Ted Knight create life?
did he create groundbreaking accomplishments into dimensional travel? nope. he tapped into an energy source. now that has never been done before lol.
Are you saying that Courtney can negate Pym particles?
I think you need to go back and re-read my posts.
how is that even relevant, he created vastly destructive things and amazing power devices on several levels devices that were acknowledged several times to be on the league of a green lantern Ring
YES, again your point
Did I say that?? NO, I said that if hank goes ant man he will be easily dealt with by the weakest vibration wave Libby can create. if he goes Giant he will face Al who starts off 100's of tons stronger than him at normal height and also increases his strength like Pym when he grows but has the additional advantage of being able to increase/decrease his mass and density. AND I said that any weapons he pulls out using the motif he had in West coast Avengers will be useless as they all need to have power and Courtney can cut it off. Seriously he's a complete NON event in this battle however he plays it. Everything he brings to the table can be countered by a member of my team easily.
Dang, I didn't know Courtney had 'Cosmic Awareness'!!! I must've missed that somewhere
There were literally hundreds of instances of it througout the history of ALL users of Ted knight's cosmic devices. his very first adventure ted "sensed" through his rod where the danger came from and tracked it back. he "sensed the attack of Doog's dynamo before he made it. there are several instances of Syl "sensing" through the rod in All Star comics, knowing of dangers before they occurred, leading the team to them. In Star's and Striped Courtney "Sensed" nebula man before she'd seen him. I'll look for the scans
@beatboks1: right on mate. I probably will not be able to get a reply up until Sunday. I apologize.................work n family stuff. But not quite done here yet............cool? this has been quite the adventure thus far I must say, and you make me push myself to new bounds!
@beatboks1: I actually forgot about this! things have been bit chaotic lately, sorry! Figure it's almost time to wrap this up as there is really only so much to be said and don't want to run in circles. You have made a strong case as always.
Just wanna cover a couple things and then do a breakdown of how I see it playing out and points of why my guys take this.
So when you can show any member of your team shattering shields as powerful as Alan Scot's, KOing someone like powergirl, and braking the spells of CLASSIC Dr fate and putting him in a coma then you can say they are a greater powerhouse than Vulcan. The fact is you can't say this because they aren't.All you feats are irreverent because Classic Fate had the energy and matter manipulation powers of Silver Surfer + the Physcial powers of Superman + the magic of Classic Strange. I didn't see a single feat that had any of your team defeating SS+ Supes + Classic Strange and that was only omne member of the team Vulcan soloed. So the argument stands
I see the point you are trying to make however nobody on your team has done that either. Courtney did not KO all those people, and SHE did not KO Vulcan. The argument may still stand however, it's misguided bud.
Courtney is in my team and freed the mind of Hourman by her mere presence
Actually it's more like comparing different types of apples, especially when you take into consideration that the one she freed from "Soul possession" didn't have a soul to be possessed ( being a machine and all)
In Stars and stripes IIRC her mere presence once again released a student from some mind controlling ray that altered the brain chemistry ( that one is an orange by comparison but agian shows more evidence of her cosmic converter belt clearing mental control forms now of varying type and degree). Also in Stars and Stripes the Dragon King Hypnotized her to fight Pat but the belt freed her from it and overrode the hypnosis ray controlling others
ok.
the "machine doesn't have a soul" argument is a delicate one. We could talk about other examples.......Vision, Jocasta, Machine Man, Red Tornado, etc....... but why bother? Ok, she freed Hourman.
ok, with that evidence I will bow down on that point. I was not aware of that as you are more intimately aware of the character. Touche good sir. As usual, i tip my hat to you.
Did I say that?? NO, I said that if hank goes ant man he will be easily dealt with by the weakest vibration wave Libby can create. if he goes Giant he will face Al who starts off 100's of tons stronger than him at normal height and also increases his strength like Pym when he grows but has the additional advantage of being able to increase/decrease his mass and density. AND I said that any weapons he pulls out using the motif he had in West coast Avengers will be useless as they all need to have power and Courtney can cut it off. Seriously he's a complete NON event in this battle however he plays it. Everything he brings to the table can be countered by a member of my team easily.
ok, wow. First off, Libby is not going to utilize any sound vibrations here as I feel that i have her effectively neutralized by Firestorm (encased and KO gas around the head. quick KO). Secondly, I will say that yes, Al would probably have a strength advantage to some degree however you never addressed the point I made with Hank using Pym particles in his hands to minaturize opponents. What's to say that he won't negates Al's mass/density abilities with dispersement by Pym particle touch? And what affect that would have on Al's physiology? As shown in scans previously he was able to shunt himself and Absorbing Man into another dimension by that ability to say that that would effectively take care of Al.
Gallery
and when Hawkeye used Pym particle arrow on Goliath it was proven to effectively reduce size of somebody that was a size changer, and Pym particles have effected beings with complicated cellular makeup of ionic energy (Goliath, Wonder Man).
So Pym is a complete NON factor? I would say that is incorrect. I don't see how this ability is "countered easily" as you put it.
There were literally hundreds of instances of it througout the history of ALL users of Ted knight's cosmic devices. his very first adventure ted "sensed" through his rod where the danger came from and tracked it back. he "sensed the attack of Doog's dynamo before he made it. there are several instances of Syl "sensing" through the rod in All Star comics, knowing of dangers before they occurred, leading the team to them. In Star's and Striped Courtney "Sensed" nebula man before she'd seen him
Ok. You had eluded to more of a 'cosmic awareness' ability and what I'm getting from this is more of a 'spidey sense' type of thing. That is vastly different. But OK, I will give you that danger can be sensed at some level and tracking ability?
Anyway, this is how I see it:
Battle starts. Firestorm eliminates Libby as stated previously encased in titanium block and transmuted air around head to KO gas (ether, whatever).
Courtney is enraged by this fires off blasts, and is engaged by an invisible Super Skrull's shields.
Nuklon goes big, Pym returns in kind going Giant Man. Pym instantly realizes strength of his foe, uses Pym Particle touch to neautralize Al by shrinking out of dimension and Pym returns.
Firestorm, and Pym join Skrully who although is putting up the best fight he can is having trouble. Combo of three KO Courtney.
I see the point you are trying to make however nobody on your team has done that either. Courtney did not KO all those people, and SHE did not KO Vulcan. The argument may still stand however, it's misguided bud.
That isn't what i'm saying. My statement was that the shields of an older less powered version of the cosmic staff (namely the star rod) did tank a powerhouse of that level. I originally stated that Courtney's shields can tank greater powerhouses than anyone on your team. I offered the scan of Sylvester tanking Vulcan and then showed how Vulcan can solo all those people and do all that. I also showed Ted Knight himself stating that the old star rod was much lower in power than the modern Cosmic rod and if you want can also put up scans where Syl says that the Cosmic Converter belt is too and Ted agrees with him ( the belt of course is the same one Courtney wares, as I recall back in the early issues of Stars and Stripes her step brother and her broke the more modern one and Stripes had to give her the original - I never saw the newer one repaired)
ok, wow. First off, Libby is not going to utilize any sound vibrations here as I feel that i have her effectively neutralized by Firestorm (encased and KO gas around the head. quick KO).
As I've already stated theatencasing of libby in metal effectively enhances her sonic waves. Not only does it not deal with her it makes her a MUCH greater problem. As for the gas, I already covered that. You yourself used the idea of a force field as protection from the KO gas from FS. Two members of my team can create force fields and one is Libby. Libby produces sonic force waves. these waves are strong enough to throw around baron Blitzcrieg. Remember him, he's the guy i've shown scans of going toe to toe with Superman. the guy who was compared in strength to Wonder Woman. That BTW isn't the modern WW but the E-2 Golden Age WW who has feats like lassoing a planet and swining it around and toeing a sun ( I have the scans if you need them). In Y.A.S she also threw around the sons of dawn who were iron Munro level.
Secondly, I will say that yes, Al would probably have a strength advantage to some degree however you never addressed the point I made with Hank using Pym particles in his hands to minaturize opponents. What's to say that he won't negates Al's mass/density abilities with dispersement by Pym particle touch? And what affect that would have on Al's physiology? As shown in scans previously he was able to shunt himself and Absorbing Man into another dimension by that ability to say that that would effectively take care of Al.
I would draw your attention to the underlined. There it is in your own words, TOUCH. how exactly do the Pym particles touch anyone on my team??? Courtney has a force field, LIbby generates force waves and Al becomes intangible.
and when Hawkeye used Pym particle arrow on Goliath it was proven to effectively reduce size of somebody that was a size changer, and Pym particles have effected beings with complicated cellular makeup of ionic energy (Goliath, Wonder Man).
Neither of whom have intangibility, show me it affecting shadowcat and you might have something to work with.
Ok. You had eluded to more of a 'cosmic awareness' ability and what I'm getting from this is more of a 'spidey sense' type of thing. That is vastly different. But OK, I will give you that danger can be sensed at some level and tracking ability?
I haven't looked for the issues yet but will if you want. In Ted Knights origin with the very first "gravity Rod" he sensed danger twice and also used the rod to locate Doog (one of his early arch enemies). In other issues he tracked energy wakes, and seemed to have an awareness of thing happening.
In All Star Comics Sylvester used the then "star Rod' to find people and know where the JSA was. he was also alerted several times of danger and reacted slightly before he should have known. He was able to sue the rod to know where Vulcan was, he also knew of earth quakes before they happened and somehow sensed their source.
In Infinity Inc during the "generations Saga" when Alan, and the other parents of the infinitors were under the sway of the stream of ruthlessness Ted was able to sense where Alan was to very close, so much so Alan had to distract him with a construct to attack from behind. There are several more and there were a few minor ones of Courtney too.
Anyway, this is how I see it:
Battle starts. Firestorm eliminates Libby as stated previously encased in titanium block and transmuted air around head to KO gas (ether, whatever).
As I already said this wont eliminate her but make her more of a threat. That's because Sound travels faster and further in solids the greater the density. The closer together particles are the more their vibration affects other particles. So please encase away. As for KO gas again sound is vibrating moving particles, what do you think is carrying the sound to your ear?? it's the air around the source so that air is coming back at you due to the force that can throw around guys equal to WW and Superman. Do you really think your gas wont move when even they can't be??? So your KO as is heading to take out it's creator.
Courtney is enraged by this fires off blasts, and is engaged by an invisible Super Skrull's shields.
Oh come on, you can do better than this.
She has no reason to be enraged because you've done nothing to enrage her.
She is no longer the little girl from Star's and Stripes days. She is actually one of the cooler heads in the JSA. If she didn't get enraged when she watched her entire family die in the time altered lead up to Extant, she certainly isn't loosing it here.
Nuklon goes big, Pym returns in kind going Giant Man. Pym instantly realizes strength of his foe, uses Pym Particle touch to neautralize Al by shrinking out of dimension and Pym returns.
Pym particles pass harmlessly through Al and he ends up catching Pym flat footed and unaware.
Firestorm, and Pym join Skrully who although is putting up the best fight he can is having trouble. Combo of three KO Courtney.
Firestorm didn't get past Libby and is likely KO'd by his own gas.
Skrull down t down to Courtney pretty quick
Pym can't match any and certainly isn't matching all three.
@beatboks1: ahhhh I love debating with you!!!!! You were a bit more "hostile" this time but whatever, it's all in good fun. I asked to be paired against you to challenge myself.
I'm going to be unorthadox and not rebutt/reply to your last post (which I probably should and as always you will win) but it was an honor to face youh as always.
@beatboks1: ahhhh I love debating with you!!!!! You were a bit more "hostile" this time but whatever, it's all in good fun. I asked to be paired against you to challenge myself.
Sorry if I appeared hostile wasn't intended. I've had a really crappy couple of weeks.
I took over a store when the previous manager resigned (before being fired , having had a few formal warnings) a couple of weeks ago as an interim manager until a new one was appointed (Starts next week). The store was in the worst condition of any branch in any of the various retail companies I've worked in since leaving the military. It was absolutely filthy all over the place, the tea room and team areas were IMO a health hazard ( and I've managed food establishments also). There was next to no stock on over half the shelves but the stock room was bulging at the seams and there was a mountain of stock on over head fittings above the shelves. Two weeks later I've made one department manager resign, the overheads are almost empty there are 67 empty pallet spaces in receiving and it's at least fit to eat in the place. I've worked a shit load of hours and have practically had to job threaten every single team member in the place just to provide standards half what I'm used to team I lead providing without being asked.
Basically I've been carrying my big stick around a LOT wielding it with my Rhino skin, and it may have come off over the net as well SORRY.
I vote for @beatboks1, since he proved that his team is more competent, besides having more synergy, presented a better strategy and was able to successfully argue against @cosmicallyaware1 team, who put some effort in his game, but not enough to overcome his opponent.
Both had sufficient knowledge of their characters, a compliment for both sides. But Beatboks1 edged it out in strategy over cosmicallyaware1, countering every point. Also neither side used (or specifically mention) the prep given, which surprised me.
@cosmicallyaware1 Has my vote. I felt he had a all around better team and had better showings for his team. Nevertheless good job to both
Fair enough on the better team. His is more powerful no doubt, only Courtney has that level of power. . But better showings?? sorry that's just no.
I showed
Liberty Belle throwing around Baron Blitz who solos teams matched Superman and was compared to E-2 Wonder woman (whos a lot more powerful than any other version)
Nuklon take down Martian Manhunter, Black Adam, E-2 Wonder Woman and more
Stargirl defeat gods and her weapon tank the attacks from guys who defeated a team of guys who were ALL much more powerful than his team members combined.
@beatboks1: excellent job as always my man. It's an honor to face you good sir. Sorry to hear about all the craziness with work................i totally can relate, good luck with that.
Couple things however......
I showed
Liberty Belle throwing around Baron Blitz who solos teams matched Superman and was compared to E-2 Wonder woman (whos a lot more powerful than any other version
Dude, be real. She didn't throw him around. She used her power to slam a heavy ass bell into him. Big difference. Take credit when it's due man, don't church somethin up that's really not that big of a deal. Like I said, if he was so B.A he woulda knocked that bell aside, the Liberty Bell doesn't weigh THAT much (check my previous posts.....)
Nuklon take down Martian Manhunter, Black Adam, E-2 Wonder Woman and more
Once again, churchin it up. Al didn't "take down" those guys. MM was merely stunned briefly, and Al sucker punched BA whom returned from it shortly after seriously pissed. That's not takin down man.....
I would say Pym's intelligence being acknowledged by an abstract level cosmic being and the feat of taking on absorbing man shifting into the realm of abstracts was much more impressive...................but oh well.....................
@cdiddyman911: thanks for the vote man, I usually don't get too many when I go against beatboks so I will treasure that vote! probably only one I will get................
While I agree your team has the greater power (never denied BTW) I think you're mistaking what I'm saying.
Realistically if Belle's sonic waves weren't powerful enough to push guy's like BB around she would have gotten no where with the Bell move ( and yes it only weighs about a ton). BB has the resilience to take blows from Superman, Wonder Woman and Uncle Sam ( all of whom are well above Super Skrull in strength BTW). The only way that bell could have done what it did was that it had a lot of force behind it. Let's also not forget that it also threw Zyclon around who is/was a Flash level Speedster . let's also no forget in Young All Stars when she does the same thing to a few dozen of the Son's of Dawn ( Action 1 Superman level guys and gals), mind you those two are probably her only showings with the power besides COIE itself.
Dude a take down is a wrestling term (at least it was when I wrestled in school a few decades ago) a term that implies you got someone down on the mat with a move. It was never the end of the fight it was just that. Every single feat I mentioned was what I called it, it wasn't an over statement but I think you've read that to mean more than it actually does. Take down does not and never has meant a win, it simply means you've gotten an adversary down which he did in each of the scans I showed.
But would taking on absorbing man rate higher than tanking a blast from a guy who soloed Alan Scot, Classic Fate and Powergirl ( plus jay Garrick, and several others) ? ;D
It was good battling you and IMO you should have had more votes. I deliberately went into this tourney with city level and below characters (except Courtney obviously) while others picked more planet level just for fun.
@mr_ingenuity: that's because I don't really have a team with any prep feats or capable of much in prep. Maybe Al ( Nuklon) could build a mini fighter plane ( he's a mechanical engeineet and built the flyer that infinity inc had) but really that would be it
While I agree your team has the greater power (never denied BTW) I think you're mistaking what I'm saying.
Realistically if Belle's sonic waves weren't powerful enough to push guy's like BB around she would have gotten no where with the Bell move ( and yes it only weighs about a ton). BB has the resilience to take blows from Superman, Wonder Woman and Uncle Sam ( all of whom are well above Super Skrull in strength BTW). The only way that bell could have done what it did was that it had a lot of force behind it. Let's also not forget that it also threw Zyclon around who is/was a Flash level Speedster . let's also no forget in Young All Stars when she does the same thing to a few dozen of the Son's of Dawn ( Action 1 Superman level guys and gals), mind you those two are probably her only showings with the power besides COIE itself.
Dude a take down is a wrestling term (at least it was when I wrestled in school a few decades ago) a term that implies you got someone down on the mat with a move. It was never the end of the fight it was just that. Every single feat I mentioned was what I called it, it wasn't an over statement but I think you've read that to mean more than it actually does. Take down does not and never has meant a win, it simply means you've gotten an adversary down which he did in each of the scans I showed.
But would taking on absorbing man rate higher than tanking a blast from a guy who soloed Alan Scot, Classic Fate and Powergirl ( plus jay Garrick, and several others) ? ;D
It was good battling you and IMO you should have had more votes. I deliberately went into this tourney with city level and below characters (except Courtney obviously) while others picked more planet level just for fun.
yes sir always a pleasure. One of these days man, I will be a worthy adversary and in the meantime I hope you don't mind us facing each other....I learn a lot when I debate you!
1.) gotcha.
2.) true, you are right that I was thinking something else.
Log in to comment