" Luke. Wasnt he able to mess with a black hole or something. sorry for bump btw "
Yes. The Vong used creatures called dovin basals which had the ability to generate gravity fields and effectively create black holes. Dovin basals were usually kept aboard Vong ships, and the black holes were used to draw missiles and other fire away from the ships. As the Vong were using a dovin basal to move a black hole it created, Luke telekinetically held the black hole in place as they were trying to move it. Once they made their attempt to move it max capacity, Luke released his hold over it and pushed his own telekinetic power to move it farther than the Vong intended. This resulted in the black hole consuming the ship the dovin basal was situated in.
" @Zoom: Luke actually has better combat speed than Diana does. "
True. But I hope you realize that you just opened up a big ol' can of worms here. "
I realize that and will accept the consequences for it.
@Valtot said:
" @Silver2467: you mean when he does that glowing one with the force thing? "
No, I mean normally. The "glowing won with the force thing" is called Oneness.
@Fantasma Ghost said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" @Zoom: Luke actually has better combat speed than Diana does. "
How so? "
He has better combat speed feats. He has matched Sidious, who has relativistic combat speed; he has fought so fast that he appeared as a blur to Jacen, Jaina, and Ben (not simultaneously; in different instances), all of whom are extremely fast; he has moved so fast that all of the more powerful Jedi in his Order could never even see him (meaning, to other speedsters, Luke was invisible due to his speed); he has created afterimages with his lightsaber; he completely overwhemled Lumiya with his speed in their last duel; he managed to supersede Caedus's speed while wounded and while the field of the fight benefited Caedus; IIRC, he has also thrown multiple strikes with his lightsaber that have been described as moving like lightning; etc. He has other speed feats as well, and he has a combat-effective precog. Luke is fast.
" @Silver2467: ok oneness ive heard about that in other forums with luke what does it do for him "
When Luke or any other Force sensitive enters Oneness, they become Force energy and increase their effectiveness in combat and overall power until the the state wears off.
" @Silver2467: can someoen like luke acsess this at will? or does it require great concentration or something "
They more have to attune themselves in the Force (not through concentration, since Luke did it in combat). The ability is not often used. But I already told you Luke has greater operational speed than Diana without it. So what difference does that make?
" @Silver2467: ok oneness ive heard about that in other forums with luke what does it do for him "
It's basically becoming merged with the Force, like the state of becoming a Force Ghost, except you've achieved it while still living. Theoretically the Jedi/Sith doing this reaches the pinnacle of their potential power, as they are becoming one with the Force, but it appears to manifest differently / incompletely among some. For example, Barriss gained Omnipresence through both time and space and possible Omniscience, while Luke pretty much became the unstoppable walking "fire and brimstone" essence.
" @Zoom: Luke actually has better combat speed than Diana does. "
Really? How fast because Diana is nearly a match for Superman's combat speed. "
@Silver2467 said:
He has better combat speed feats. He has matched Sidious, who has relativistic combat speed; he has fought so fast that he appeared as a blur to Jacen, Jaina, and Ben (not simultaneously; in different instances), all of whom are extremely fast; he has moved so fast that all of the more powerful Jedi in his Order could never even see him (meaning, to other speedsters, Luke was invisible due to his speed); he has created afterimages with his lightsaber; he completely overwhemled Lumiya with his speed in their last duel; he managed to supersede Caedus's speed while wounded and while the field of the fight benefited Caedus; IIRC, he has also thrown multiple strikes with his lightsaber that have been described as moving like lightning; etc. He has other speed feats as well, and he has a combat-effective precog. Luke is fast.
@Silver2467: Those are interesting reads but they do not prove his superior combat speed. Especially when I have no way of knowing if those listed people are comparable to Superman's combat speed.
" @Silver2467: Those are interesting reads but they do not prove his superior combat speed. Especially when I have no way of knowing if those listed people are comparable to Superman's combat speed. "
I agree. The only actual measurement of speed we have is the lightning reference. Of which I'm pretty sure WW could replicate.
@erik: Sidious has light speed combat speed, and Luke matched (and technically, overpowered) him. He actually dueled him twice. This was years before Luke reached his prime, and that on its own, really, would prove that he has better combat speed, since neither Diana nor Clark can fight at relativistic speeds. Creating numerous afterimages with his lightsaber may not be exactly quantifiable, but it does demonstrate extremely high combat speed. I would have to list feats for some of the others, such as Lumiya or Jacen/Caedus to draw a more accurate comparison, but I see no need for that. Caedus is above Yoda/Windu level in combat speed, which attests to Luke, considering that he appeared as a blur to Jacen and also beat Caedus while circumstances worked against Luke.
@erik: In the RotS novel, during his duel with Windu, Sidious was moving so fast that he appeared as a blur to Windu. Later on, when Anakin arrived, they were moving too fast for Anakin to even see, and their strikes were described as "light speed ricochets of lethal intent."
I should also point out that Sidious never even reached his prime until Dark Empire, which was around three decades later, and Luke fought him during Dark Empire.
" @erik: In the RotS novel, during his duel with Windu, Sidious was moving so fast that he appeared as a blur to Windu. Later on, when Anakin arrived, they were moving too fast for Anakin to even see, and their strikes were described as "light speed ricochets of lethal intent." I should also point out that Sidious never even reached his prime until Dark Empire, which was around three decades later, and Luke fought him during Dark Empire. "
To be honest, that sounds like hyperbole to me. Like how the writer of Static said that Static moved at light speed from one place to another, then later explained in a forum that Static was not really moving at light speed, it just was fancy wording.
" @erik: In the RotS novel, during his duel with Windu, Sidious was moving so fast that he appeared as a blur to Windu. Later on, when Anakin arrived, they were moving too fast for Anakin to even see, and their strikes were described as "light speed ricochets of lethal intent." I should also point out that Sidious never even reached his prime until Dark Empire, which was around three decades later, and Luke fought him during Dark Empire. "
I haven't read this book. But, seriously? How did Windu manage to get the upper hand? Or did it go down differently than the movie?
" @erik: In the RotS novel, during his duel with Windu, Sidious was moving so fast that he appeared as a blur to Windu. Later on, when Anakin arrived, they were moving too fast for Anakin to even see, and their strikes were described as "light speed ricochets of lethal intent." I should also point out that Sidious never even reached his prime until Dark Empire, which was around three decades later, and Luke fought him during Dark Empire. "
To be honest, that sounds like hyperbole to me. Like how the writer of Static said that Static moved at light speed from one place to another, then later explained in a forum that Static was not really moving at light speed, it just was fancy wording. "
I have read the comic in which Static was described that way, and the description was that he moved like lightning. And there really is nothing to suggest it would be hyperbole, unless you know something about it I don't.
" @erik: In the RotS novel, during his duel with Windu, Sidious was moving so fast that he appeared as a blur to Windu. Later on, when Anakin arrived, they were moving too fast for Anakin to even see, and their strikes were described as "light speed ricochets of lethal intent." I should also point out that Sidious never even reached his prime until Dark Empire, which was around three decades later, and Luke fought him during Dark Empire. "
I haven't read this book. But, seriously? How did Windu manage to get the upper hand? Or did it go down differently than the movie? "
Windu gained the upper hand because of Vapaad. Vapaad works especially well against dark siders. It allows the user to channel an opponents darkness and negative emotions into fuel for the user.
" @erik: In the RotS novel, during his duel with Windu, Sidious was moving so fast that he appeared as a blur to Windu. Later on, when Anakin arrived, they were moving too fast for Anakin to even see, and their strikes were described as "light speed ricochets of lethal intent." I should also point out that Sidious never even reached his prime until Dark Empire, which was around three decades later, and Luke fought him during Dark Empire. "
I haven't read this book. But, seriously? How did Windu manage to get the upper hand? Or did it go down differently than the movie? "
Windu gained the upper hand because of Vapaad. Vapaad works especially well against dark siders. It allows the user to channel an opponents darkness and negative emotions into fuel for the user. "
" @erik: In the RotS novel, during his duel with Windu, Sidious was moving so fast that he appeared as a blur to Windu. Later on, when Anakin arrived, they were moving too fast for Anakin to even see, and their strikes were described as "light speed ricochets of lethal intent." I should also point out that Sidious never even reached his prime until Dark Empire, which was around three decades later, and Luke fought him during Dark Empire. "
To be honest, that sounds like hyperbole to me. Like how the writer of Static said that Static moved at light speed from one place to another, then later explained in a forum that Static was not really moving at light speed, it just was fancy wording. "
I have read the comic in which Static was described that way, and the description was that he moved like lightning. And there really is nothing to suggest it would be hyperbole, unless you know something about it I don't. "
Lightning, light speed, whatever. The point is Static was not nor is he capable of that speed. It just sounded cool.
Do you have other feats that solidify their ability to fight at light speed?
While I'm still betting on Luke in this fight, I have to agree that the description being used to give Luke lightspeed sounds more like it was evocative imagery than quantative data.
" @erik: In the RotS novel, during his duel with Windu, Sidious was moving so fast that he appeared as a blur to Windu. Later on, when Anakin arrived, they were moving too fast for Anakin to even see, and their strikes were described as "light speed ricochets of lethal intent." I should also point out that Sidious never even reached his prime until Dark Empire, which was around three decades later, and Luke fought him during Dark Empire. "
To be honest, that sounds like hyperbole to me. Like how the writer of Static said that Static moved at light speed from one place to another, then later explained in a forum that Static was not really moving at light speed, it just was fancy wording. "
I have read the comic in which Static was described that way, and the description was that he moved like lightning. And there really is nothing to suggest it would be hyperbole, unless you know something about it I don't. "
Lightning, light speed, whatever. The point is Static was not nor is he capable of that speed. It just sounded cool. Do you have other feats that solidify their ability to fight at light speed? "
For Sidoius or Luke? Because, for Sidious, he managed to blitz Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin, then appeared as a blur to Windu (if you know anything about EU Windu, he know he has some impressive speed feats), his duel with Yoda was described as a "lightning speared tornado of feet and fist and blades," etc. As for Luke, I already mentioned several things, and he has other speeds feats that I neglected to mention as well, such as fighting so fast that he appeared to have ten or twenty lightsabers when he entered Oneness.
I meant for anyone really. But you are name dropping like crazy and you know that I am not a Star Wars guy. It is really why I am asking the questions.
Appearing as a blur is cool but Wolverine does that. That is hardly light speed or anything close to it.
I need solid feats that without question are light speed. Not open for interpretation.
@erik: For one, Luke and Sidious are probably the only characters who actually can fight at light speed. With Windu and Yoda, they may have fought Sidious, but the novel made it extremely clear that Yoda was no match for him (and Palpatine beat him straightforwardly in the book; it not a stalemate). And as for Windu, Sidious was a blur to him, and Windu was essentially amping himself by drawing on Sidious's dark side potency. Whereas, when Luke fought him, there were no such circumstances. No one else has demonstrated anything to suggest they could fight at light speed.
You missed the point. They have appeared as a blur to characters with high levels of super speed. It is not just appearing as a blur to random bystanders or cannon fodder thugs. Luke has moved so fast that he was physically invisible to other speedsters.
Okay. I am not trying to poke holes in your arguments. I am trying to understand your claims. So far, as a person ignorant in Star Wars lore, I am really unsatisfied with the presented evidence though. There has to be more to support their light speed fighting ability or at least there should be.
All of this is comparative, however. We have no reference to how fast these "speedsters" you keep comparing Luke and Sidious to are. I agree with the end result that Luke wins this fight, but I just don't really buy your arguments for light speed Jedi.
@erik: There does? Flash doesn't have to one-shot Kryptonian level opponents more than once for me to know he can.
As for poking holes in my arguments, I have no issue with that. If what I support my case with is unsatisfactory, then I will restudy it to try to present it, hopefully, more convincingly.
" All of this is comparative, however. We have no reference to how fast these "speedsters" you keep comparing Luke and Sidious to are. I agree with the end result that Luke wins this fight, but I just don't really buy your arguments for light speed Jedi. "
Yes, there is. If you know what their speed feats are, then the comparison is there. I will have no MPH statistic to give you, but I can give you the comparison made for speed feats, because generally, those are how speed is measured in the EU.
And I am not really sure what you mean by "light speed JedI" either. Aside from Luke and Sidious, no one else has demonstrated anything to suggest they can operate that fast.
" @erik: There does? Flash doesn't have to one-shot Kryptonian level opponents more than once for me to know he can. As for poking holes in my arguments, I have no issue with that. If what I support my case with is unsatisfactory, then I will restudy it to try to present it, hopefully, more convincingly. "
Yes. There does. We know Flash can do what he can because he operates on that level often. If he never had operated on that level and then one day did, then never operated on that level afterwards, that instance would be considered PIS.
You have one example that to me, is just hyperbole to jazz up the description of the scene.
But again, I was not trying to poke holes in the argument. I was and still am trying to get an understanding of the character's abilities.
" @erik: There does? Flash doesn't have to one-shot Kryptonian level opponents more than once for me to know he can. As for poking holes in my arguments, I have no issue with that. If what I support my case with is unsatisfactory, then I will restudy it to try to present it, hopefully, more convincingly. "
Yes. There does. We know Flash can do what he can because he operates on that level often. If he never had operated on that level and then one day did, then never operated on that level afterwards, that instance would be considered PIS. You have one example that to me, is just hyperbole to jazz up the description of the scene. But again, I was not trying to poke holes in the argument. I was and still am trying to get an understanding of the character's abilities. "
Yes, but how often does Flash actually one-shot characters with Kryptonian level durability? I was not referencing his speed during New World Order. I was referencing his IMP.
There is really nothing to suggest it would be hyperbole, especially considering that throughout the entire duel, speed was a focus of the descriptions.
Speed may have been a focus but you only gave me one line for light speed and it is open to interpretation. The rest you described to me as 'fast as a blur'.
@erik: Does the book have to say the words "light speed" more than once in the same duel? If it already established that Sidious was fighting at light speed, then what would the purpose of stating the same thing again later on within the same few pages?
" @Silver2467: Okay. I am not trying to poke holes in your arguments. I am trying to understand your claims. So far, as a person ignorant in Star Wars lore, I am really unsatisfied with the presented evidence though. There has to be more to support their light speed fighting ability or at least there should be. "
This is actually totally understandable. As someone who also once was unfamiliar with the EU, everything stated in the SWU novels and comics sounds outlandish and exaggerated. The EU - especially the novels, which are more explanatory, detailed, and gritty - have a completely different feel from the Star Wars movies.
The power levels are completely off the scales. The variety of powers is abundant. There is way more depth to everything. Trust me, read the novels. It's not a hyperbole, it's dead on. These people walk on lava, manipulate black holes, create wormholes, devour planets, manipulate space and time, such as time travel and teleportation, have superhuman traits, like superhuman strength (one Jedi has even used telekinesis in the same fashion as TTK), speed, durability, and such, are literally immortal and unkillable.
I kid you not, this stuff is completely beyond what most people would expect if they are only familiar with Lucas' movies.
" @erik: Does the book have to say the words "light speed" more than once in the same duel? If it already established that Sidious was fighting at light speed, then what would the purpose of stating the same thing again later on within the same few pages? "
In order for me not to associate it with my previously mentioned Static example, yeah. At least as an outsider to the Star Wars lore. I am of the 'consistency equals credibility' cloth after all. But Reactor backed you up so it seals it for me.
@Reactor said:
" @erik said:
" @Silver2467: Okay. I am not trying to poke holes in your arguments. I am trying to understand your claims. So far, as a person ignorant in Star Wars lore, I am really unsatisfied with the presented evidence though. There has to be more to support their light speed fighting ability or at least there should be. "
This is actually totally understandable. As someone who also once was unfamiliar with the EU, everything stated in the SWU novels and comics sounds outlandish and exaggerated. The EU - especially the novels, which are more explanatory, detailed, and gritty - have a completely different feel from the Star Wars movies.
The power levels are completely off the scales. The variety of powers is abundant. There is way more depth to everything. Trust me, read the novels. It's not a hyperbole, it's dead on. These people walk on lava, manipulate black holes, create wormholes, devour planets, manipulate space and time, such as time travel and teleportation, have superhuman traits, like superhuman strength (one Jedi has even used telekinesis in the same fashion as TTK), speed, durability, and such, are literally immortal and unkillable. I kid you not, this stuff is completely beyond what most people would expect if they are only familiar with Lucas' movies. "
Well I guess I am at a loss as far as this battle is concerned then. If the battle is really that one-sided, I am a little disappointed that the thread was created other than you and Silver taking the time to explain things to me.
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