Luke Skywalker vs The hero of Tython.

ROTJ Luke Skywalker vs.The hero of Tython

I don't know. The HoT probably wins when you view his feats on an overall scale, but it's hard to know how much of his showings are due to skill or power, etc.

@shootingnova: How close do you think?

@xxacid_spitxx: Not sure.

HoT stomps ROTJ Luke.

I doubt anybody is stomping.

HOT, I believe has greater offensive Force ability, but Luke should be a tier or two, ahead in lightsaber skill and possibly physically. I'd give it to Luke if this ends in CQC.

@okayalright_44: Not sure if Luke is ahead in skill. And certainly not by two full tiers. And I haven't seen any individual Force feats from HoT to place him above Luke. Now, if you were referring to him not getting ragdolled by Vitiate, whereas Luke would be, I can agree.

Again, it's hard to separate the lightsaber-related and Force-related aspects of HoT's combat feats, so it's hard to judge in that sense. The closest you could get is to declare him more of a lightsaber duelist based on his reputation for such, the fact that he is a Jedi Knight, whom the developers have stated is more of a duelist than a Force user, and so on.

@shootingnova: Why would Luke get rag dolled when HOT wasn't?

@xxacid_spitxx: Because we don't know how powerful HoT was. HoT wasn't ragdolled by Vitiate, but we know Vitiate would ragdoll Luke any day.

HOT takes it with moderate difficulty, if that.

Luke

Well without spoiling too much of the story for those who haven't played (or refuse to play) SWTOR, then let's just take a look at analyzing the Jedi Knight's Skill Trees and overall skills instead.

So, yes, a number of them are just saber attacks like Riposte and Master Strike, which just goes in hand with the story telling us that the HoT is the best duelist of his generation. Force Leap is fairly generic and something Luke, Obi-Wan and most other Jedi have in their arsenals.

Force Sweep: This throws back multiple targets at once using the Force.

Blade Storm: This forms a much narrower, more focused wave of Force Energy to strike a single target

Resolute: Breaks movement impairing effects, like Force Stasis and whatnot.

Ok that won't work as well as I thought it would cause it's an MMO and they throw abilities onto you like candy from a parade float. We can see that the HoT focuses primarily on TK abilities and going between both classes and different skill trees we can see the various lightsaber forms he uses. He starts wit Shii-Cho if I'm not mistaken and depending on Adv Class can use Shien, Juyo, Soresu and Ataru. So of the Seven Forms that we know of, the Jedi Knight and by extension the HoT has used and perhaps mastered up to 5 of them. Which, with Sentinel skills, also means Jar'Kai Dual-Blade Fencing.

Far as I know, Luke by RotJ really only primarily uses Soresu and Djem-So. I could be mistaken, but then that's par for course. Still by this stage, the biggest thing Luke has lifted is an X-Wing. Which isn't bad. Though the HoT has lifted rather large boulders and overpowered people who collapsed large sections of caves with seemingly little effort. So in terms of TK I don't feel they're that far about.

As far as Force Abilities on a whole, the KotoR/SWTOR Era has them in bulk while PT/RotJ is very sparse. Given SWTOR loads you with them, the HoT just has a much more broader and diverse arsenal to pull from than Luke. Plus if we were to look at the Cauterize and elemental (fire) damage caused by some of them with lightsaber moves, then we can figure that it's not an extra Force ability, but a unique function of the HoT's lightsaber that creates an unstable fluctuation in the EM-field containing the plasma in order to give it a blazing corona in order to ignite the targets it hits instead of just that perfect cut. So even a grazing blow could set the bloke on fire.

I would say because Luke's skills aren't refined at this stage, nor has he learned enough about the Force to really pose a meaty challenge, then the Hero of Tython beats him down in pretty much every area at this stage of the game. Of course GM Luke is a different beast altogether, but then there's no use arguing that now is there?

@reikai:

Far as I know, Luke by RotJ really only primarily uses Soresu and Djem-So. I could be mistaken, but then that's par for course.

He was able to mirror Darth Vader's fighting style perfectly just by dueling him a couple of times. Vader's style is a hybrid of Soresu, Djem So and Ataru, I believe.

I would say because Luke's skills aren't refined at this stage, nor has he learned enough about the Force to really pose a meaty challenge, then the Hero of Tython beats him down in pretty much every area at this stage of the game.

Nonsense, Luke is clearly the better duelist.

@i_like_swords: Luke is not clearly anything by RotJ. Far as it stands, HoT fought far more Sith and greater variance in his adversaries than Luke ever had up to that point.

@reikai: I don't really care for the "he's done more" argument. Quantity is meaningless unless the quality is also greater, and last I checked, HoT hasn't dueled evenly with someone as skilled as Darth Vader, never mind perfectly mirrored his fighting style.

@shootingnova: What I was asking is how do we know Vitate would rag doll Luke? Their is really no proof. I read in the Vader vs Vitate thread that Vader would beat Vitate so I am not buying Vitate ragdolling Luke.

@i_like_swords: And evidenced by Malgus and numerous others, there is no shortage of Quality Sith during this time. Which also includes a number of Dark Council members. Can't throw out the "not as skilled as Vader" card when you know so little about the era in question. Nvm that the bulk of Vader's abilities are TK based while many of the TOR-era Sith use much more esoteric abilities.

@xxacid_spitxx: They're saying in terms of Saber Skill, because we've never actually seen Vitiate apply his lightsaber in battle. He can generally just ragdoll everyone that comes in with the Force. He's never needed to whip the damned thing out. He mindstomps everyone who even walks in the room. And those that aren't immediately crushed by his presence, get shredded by his force storms. It'd be a repeat of Luke refusing to off Vader and having Sid tear into him with Force Lightning. Except Vitiate wouldn't screw around with the torture. He'd just murder him or tear into him mercilessly then brainwash him like he did to the HoT and several Jedi Master Council members.

@reikai:

And evidenced by Malgus and numerous others, there is no shortage of Quality Sith during this time. Which also includes a number of Dark Council members. Can't throw out the "not as skilled as Vader" card when you know so little about the era in question. Nvm that the bulk of Vader's abilities are TK based while many of the TOR-era Sith use much more esoteric abilities.

Malgus isn't as good as Vader either, so what's your point here?

I love how you're trying to call me out on a lack of knowledge after some of the nonsense you've posted about Darth Maul/Vader/Galen Marek and some other characters. Pot calling the kettle black.

What does Vader using TK have to do with dueling skill? Regardless, if you actually knew anything about the character you're analysing you'd know Vader has used more esoteric powers than telekinesis such as telepathy (to varying effects), alter environment, Force absorption/deflection and more.

@xxacid_spitxx: Because he is vastly more powerful.

Vader could Choke Luke as well, but he obviously refrained from utilizing telekinesis in their last fight.

@i_like_swords:

Malgus isn't as good as Vader either, so what's your point here?

And I'm sure not everyone is going to agree with you. Malgus not being as slow as RoboCop puts things more in his favor, nvm being more experienced and a legendary combatant on his own. Plus Sid had to give Vader Malgus' freaking Diary just to man Vader up.

I love how you're trying to call me out on a lack of knowledge after some of the nonsense you've posted about Darth Maul/Vader/Galen Marek and some other characters. Pot calling the kettle black.

And we all know Maul would never actually win that fight. The idea that Maul can swoop in with sabers spinning and win for being "better duelist" is just bull and poor argument. Galen isn't so weak and defenseless than Maul could get his better, nor is Galen's movements restricted like Vader's were. And given Galen vastly outclasses Maul in Force Power, the instant that inevitable opening shows, Maul ends up as a smear on the ground. Or a charred corpse.

What does Vader using TK have to do with dueling skill? Regardless, if you actually knew anything about the character you're analysing you'd know Vader has used more esoteric powers than telekinesis such as telepathy (to varying effects), alter environment, Force absorption/deflection and more.

Everyone and their great granny has TP to 'varying effects'. That's just standard protocol and hardly even worth mentioning when he's not in the same class as the people around him. Eldon Ax, whom I know certainly is weaker than Vader, has used more abilities than him overall. At least outright barriers for protection and degrees of levitation. I'm actually irked by the fact they didn't use her beyond the "Fatal Alliances" novel. With the Forged Alliances story arc in SWTOR, it would've been the perfect chance to bring those characters in.

That aside, so many other powers have been in play in this era that nothing Vader nor Luke has seen at that point can even remotely compare. Not like the Dread Masters mindraping entire fleets for giggles wasn't impressive by itself, keeping in mind that the one who kept their entire group in line was Vitiate himself does give an idea as to how ridiculous op'd out he is. At least when he's not being deliberately weakened by the Plot to allow the Hero of Tython to compete.

Quite frankly, the Grand Champion would've done just as well against RotJ Luke as anybody else here. GC showed he can put down Jedi Masters, whole elite Trooper squads and clear out a cave of Terentateks with a giant force-imbued and mutated monster at the back of it, all by his onesies. Honestly not sure why people would use this weak version of Luke, except to just have someone come up and murder his face in.

@reikai:

And I'm sure not everyone is going to agree with you. Malgus not being as slow as RoboCop puts things more in his favor, nvm being more experienced and a legendary combatant on his own. Plus Sid had to give Vader Malgus' freaking Diary just to man Vader up.

1. I don't care about whoever "everyone" is.

2. Vader is totally as slow as RoboCop.

Ripped straight off of DC's respect thread:

Here he reacts to a turret emplacement and blocks it with his lightsaber:

Here Vader reflects/dodges several blaster bolts fired by multiple troopers on several occasions:

Various examples of Vader creating afterimages/blurring motion/blurring trails of light with his lightsaber:

He has moved so fast he seemed to have teleported behind his foe while also evading a blaster bolt at point blink range:

Showing great jumping and sprinting speed:

Shryne fired a quick burst, then sprinted for the doorway. Behind him, his humanoid accomplices were also in motion, stunning the guards to unconsciousness and racing for the open gate.

Angling his blade, Vader deflected the bolts with intent, but by jinking and jagging Shryne managed to evade each parry. Vader leapt, his powerful prosthetic legs carrying him to the top of a broad but short flight of steps in time to see Shryne sprint across the bridge at Jedi speed, motioning to his accomplices to move Zar through the gate.

Vader leapt again, this time to the bridge, and to within only a few meters of Shryne, who spun about, dropping to one knee and firing repeatedly. This time Vader decided to show Shryne whom he was dealing with. Holding his lightsaber to one side, he raised his right hand to turn the blaster bolts.

Clearly astonished, Shryne remained on one knee, but only briefly. In an instant he had passed through the gate and was shouldering his way through the crowd outside the wall.

Vader's final leap landed him just short of the rampart. Over the heads of the milling beings, at the forward edge of a landing platform, a woman with gray-laced black hair was gesturing frantically to Shryne and his cohorts, who were already hauling Fang Zar up the platform steps.

--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Roan Lands before he could even react:

"He is a former associate, yes, but --"

It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.

The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart.

-- Taken from Star Wars: Last of the Jedi: Secret Weapon

More showing of Vader moving his lightsaber as blurring trails/after images:

Vader waves his lightsaber in a blur and moves it fast enough that the blurring motion appears to be nothing but a "blurring blue circle"

He draws and swings his lightsaber faster then the human eye could dare follow.

Faster than a human eye could follow, Vader's lightsaber was up, activated and moving. Grammel's slashed form pitched wildly, stumbled backward and tumbled over the side of the crawler. There was a lull as the stunned driver looked on in terror.

--Taken from Splinter of the Mind's Eye

He waves his lightsaber in a blur and swings it fast enough that the blurring motions appear as nothing but a bright circle.

"No," Vader assured him, "no. You overestimate yourself, child." The Dark Lord drew himself up to his full, awesome height. "I have finished playing with you."

Swinging his saber until it was no more than a blue blur in the dank air of the temple, he leaped straight up into the air. It was more than a jump, less than levitation. Out of the blue circle of energy he flung the saber.

--Taken from Splinter of the Mind's Eye

A caught off-guard Vader, draws his lightsaber faster than thought, waves it invisibly fast, and deflects over a dozen blaster bolts. Albeit, one breached his armor but as mentioned before he was caught off guard, he also destroys the blaster torrent with a gesture afterwards because he's a boss like that.

The Dark Lord stepped into the room, scanning it. There was something here...

The faint click of metallic weapons reached his ears. Faster than thought, Vader drew and ignited his lightsaber. In the same moment, small openings appeared in the walls and ceiling, and hidden blasters fired. Energy beams rained down on the Dark Lord and his soldiers. Stormtroopers cried out as blaster bolts shattered their white armor.

At least a dozen bolts streaked toward Vader himself. Moving faster than the eye could follow, Vader's lightsaber blocked them all.

Except for one.

The last blaster shot slipped past his saber and glanced off the Dark Lord's armored shoulder. Circuits snapped and sizzled. Looking down, Vader saw that the energy beam had sliced a thin hole in his armor and reached his skin. A tiny stream of blood trickled down his armor and dripped onto the stone floor. The Dark Lord let out a low growl and covered the wound with his gloved hand. The wound itself was only a scratch, but he relied on his armor's power to keep him alive. Now that it had been punctured, he would have to have it repaired.

More blasters fired.

"Retreat," Vader ordered, backing out of the building. Only then did he realize that all his men were dead.

Angrily, Vader waved one hand across the room. One by one, the hidden weapons exploded and sputtered as if struck by invisible lightning. The blaster fire stopped.

The Dark Lord walked over to the wall and studied one of the small openings. Inside, the remains of a ruined blaster smoldered. By the looks of the device, the blaster weapons were as old as the building itself.

--Taken from Galaxy of Fear: Clones

He also has the speed to battle and defeat several Jedi simultaneously (who are all sporting peak human to superhuman speed, precognition and clairvoyance) :

Vader beats a Jedi while weaken

Vader takes on two Jedi simultaneously:

Again Vader shows great leaping prowess:

And people say Vader can't move.....

People who pick on Vader's mobility have no idea what they are talking about

Hopefully that will suffice, although I expect a fair bit more lowballing from you yet.

3. Experience means little in comparison to actual feats. Vader has better dueling feats than Malgus. That's really all there is to it. Vader reading from Malgus' diary is hardly confirmation that Malgus > Vader. Maybe it is in whatever warped reality you reside in, but not in the real world.

And we all know Maul would never actually win that fight. The idea that Maul can swoop in with sabers spinning and win for being "better duelist" is just bull and poor argument. Galen isn't so weak and defenseless than Maul could get his better, nor is Galen's movements restricted like Vader's were. And given Galen vastly outclasses Maul in Force Power, the instant that inevitable opening shows, Maul ends up as a smear on the ground. Or a charred corpse.

1. It's not solely due to being the better duelist by leaps and bounds (although this obviously helps), it's also due to the fact that he has insane travel speed and combat speed, and his lightsaber form is based around ending fights as quickly as possible.

2. He was pretty defenceless when Shaak f*cking Ti was wiping the floor with him in a duel. And do I really need to spell out the difference in skill and combative ability between Maul and her? You're right - Galen's movements weren't restricted like Vader just after he had been put into his armor, becoming a "shell of his former self" - maybe that has something to do with the fact Galen did as well as he did? Oh, and the fact he had intimate knowledge of Vader's style. But of course I've already detailed all of this to you in the relevant thread, and you ignored it due to a lack of ability to form a rebuttal. You really need let go of your disdain for mainstream Star Wars characters - they can win fights as well, you know.

3. Galen doesn't outclass TCW Maul to such a degree that he could ragdoll him - that's nonsense. And given that Galen usually opens duels with his lightsaber, it stands to reason that he'd be gutted before he could chain in any Force based offence.

Everyone and their great granny has TP to 'varying effects'. That's just standard protocol and hardly even worth mentioning when he's not in the same class as the people around him. Eldon Ax, whom I know certainly is weaker than Vader, has used more abilities than him overall. At least outright barriers for protection and degrees of levitation. I'm actually irked by the fact they didn't use her beyond the "Fatal Alliances" novel. With the Forged Alliances story arc in SWTOR, it would've been the perfect chance to bring those characters in.

1. Not true, actually. I've read plenty of characters who don't practice telepathy. Regardless, you're only going into all of this in order to be right about whatever you can scrape from the bottom of the barrel, opposed to staying on-topic.

That aside, so many other powers have been in play in this era that nothing Vader nor Luke has seen at that point can even remotely compare. Not like the Dread Masters mindraping entire fleets for giggles wasn't impressive by itself, keeping in mind that the one who kept their entire group in line was Vitiate himself does give an idea as to how ridiculous op'd out he is. At least when he's not being deliberately weakened by the Plot to allow the Hero of Tython to compete.

What has any of this even remotely got to do with Luke's dueling skill?

Quite frankly, the Grand Champion would've done just as well against RotJ Luke as anybody else here. GC showed he can put down Jedi Masters, whole elite Trooper squads and clear out a cave of Terentateks with a giant force-imbued and mutated monster at the back of it, all by his onesies. Honestly not sure why people would use this weak version of Luke, except to just have someone come up and murder his face in.

You're not seriously claiming a Mandalorian is going to have a good chance of defeating Luke Skywalker... oh god you are. Why... ah well, have your delusions. It's not my fault you need to go off on fan-wanking tangents to dodge actual debates.

@i_like_swords: Psst, the speed feats...only the teleporting one shows up!

@wolfrazer: They show up for me!

@i_like_swords: I only see the one though! But ok.

Come on that is bad reasoning the same could be said that Luke could choke Vader as well. If Luke was susceptible to being easily overpowered by TK then Vader would have used it rather then a lightsaber throw to pull Luke off the platform he jumped on to attempt to stop fighting. Vitate is more powerful than Luke and HOT but he didn't ragdoll HOT so that doesn't mean Luke would be either. Thats my opinon on that.

After thinking about the fight I can see Luke winning this fight with a slim majority due to him being a better duelist and the idea that HOT is more of a lightsaber duelist than a force user.

@xxacid_spitxx: No, that's not bad reasoning. Vader has collapsed cathedrals (and this was twenty years before his prime), collapsed tremendously large trees, crushed gargantuan droids, melted durasteel, hurled everything in a Council Room chamber and parts of the wall/floor/ceiling at Jedi, Choked and ragdolled Jedi such as Ferus and Rahm Kota (beings of Luke's class in power), collapsed ceilings, torn apart platforms, collapsed huge platforms, Crushed TIE fighters, etc.

Luke's best TK feat is telekinetically supporting an AT-ST. That's only Obi-Wan level (who has collapsed large trees and manipulated 8m ships), whereas Vader is a tier ahead of Dooku, who has already Choked and hurled Obi-Wan.

Vader intentionally withheld his telekinetic powers against Luke in RotJ, except for the Saber Throw which wasn't even direct telekinesis against Luke's body anyway.