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#1 Edited by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

This is Luke before he trains with Yoda

vs

Han Before the Battle of Hoth (not that he really changes much between ANH and ESB)

Location: Coruscant Slums (a place neither are familiar with)

prep: none

morals on.

gear: Lightsaber for Luke, standard gear for both.

Expanded Universe (EU) allowed. i have never read any book for this time period but feel free to pull feats from any books/comics you wish. (provided they are feats from before the set versions of the characters).


Round 1: Luke vs Han

Round 2: Chewbacca and Han vs Luke

hope this hasn't been done before, i searched google and didn't see it and used search function on Comic VIne but kept getting an internal server error.


#2 Posted by JediXMan (31590 posts) - - Show Bio

... what?

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#3 Edited by JediXMan (31590 posts) - - Show Bio

For the record: Luke was still good enough to defend himself from a Jedi who was both more experienced than him and amped by a Sith Lord.

(scans are from right to left, for some reason, and I can't fix it)

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#4 Edited by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: is that a rhetorical question?

I'm thinking Han takes this. in both rounds (included second just in case) what feats does luke have BEFORE he trains with Yoda? can he even block blaster fire? (don't remember seeing that in movie except against the training droid in ANH)

typed this apparently as you were posting the above.

That is pretty impressive and as i have said i have read zero EU content for this period but I still have to hand this to Han in round one. not saying its a walk in the park but as long as he keeps his distance he is still a trained military veteran with ample combat experience over this force sensitive light saber wielding pilot

#5 Posted by JediXMan (31590 posts) - - Show Bio
@drache64 said:

@jedixman: is that a rhetorical question?

I'm thinking Han takes this. in both rounds (included second just in case) what feats does luke have BEFORE he trains with Yoda? can he even block blaster fire? (don't remember seeing that in movie except against the training droid in ANH)

What I mentioned was BEFORE ESB.

Also, why are you talking about the movies? Clearly you mentioned the EU.

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#6 Posted by myerlanski (1415 posts) - - Show Bio

Well Han in the very beginning when obi wan started training him but inbetween ANH and ESB he seemed to tap into his other abilities, like telekinesis before he gets to yoda.

#7 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (27663 posts) - - Show Bio

Luke stomps.

Even before ESB he was able to defeat Orman Tagge not once, but twice in a lightsaber duel.

Luke also has multiple other feats, that notion that he has no feats pre-ESB is ludicrous.

#8 Posted by laflux (17596 posts) - - Show Bio

Luke stomps.

Even before ESB he was able to defeat Orman Tagge not once, but twice in a lightsaber duel.

Luke also has multiple other feats, that notion that he has no feats pre-ESB is ludicrous.

#9 Edited by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

How good is Luke at deflecting blaster fire? Saber on saber is different. I included movies and EU.

#10 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (27663 posts) - - Show Bio

@drache64: Luke had no problem deflecting blaster bolts from an highly trained cybrog that gave Vader all he could handle; he would have no problem defeating Solo.

#11 Edited by Wolfrazer (8011 posts) - - Show Bio

I still wanna know what Han Solo can do EU wise. Does no writer care about him? D:

Anywhoo....ya Luke has this. Though now I'm interested in Luke pre-ESB, I figured he still did stuff but I don't know in particular.

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#12 Posted by Eisenfauste (9247 posts) - - Show Bio

Luke skywacker ftw.

#13 Edited by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

Not convinced, I still say Han and chewie take round two with superior team work and experience (esp chewie) they also have blasters one of which is a bow caster.

#14 Edited by ShootingNova (19933 posts) - - Show Bio

Luke speedblitzes round 1 and wins round 2 in a stomp.

#15 Edited by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: speed blitzes? Okay if I know this little about EU Luke pre Yoda training then you may punch me in the face, but what speed feats does Luke have to suggest he could speed blitz two renown soldiers with more experience and great accuracy?

#16 Posted by Juiceboks (11396 posts) - - Show Bio

@drache64 said:

@shootingnova: speed blitzes? Okay if I know this little about EU Luke pre Yoda training then you may punch me in the face, but what speed feats does Luke have to suggest he could speed blitz two renown soldiers with more experience and great accuracy?

Have you read Shadows of the Empire? Literally everything you're missing is in that one novel. He's deflected blaster bolts from a dozen shooters at once, spun his lightsaber so fast that he wove a curtain of hard light, moved so fast that a superhuman replica droid moved in slow motion to him, and many other feats of speed/reflexes. He could also simply disarm them with his TK and use their weapons against them. No reason why the two should beat him..

#17 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (27663 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: Shadows of the Empire took place AFTER ESB......

#18 Edited by Juiceboks (11396 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@juiceboks: Shadows of the Empire took place AFTER ESB......

Dammit, keep forgetting that New Hope came before ESB not after..

@drache64 Scratch what I just said, didn't read the OP :/

#19 Posted by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: @dccomicsrule2011: I hope this is true otherwise it wouldn't tie in well with the movie.

Han and chew don't seem to have as many feats but they have a solid background and consistency. I know Luke would tear them up in CC but these guys are smarter than Luke and better with strategy. (At the set point in time)

#20 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (27663 posts) - - Show Bio

@drache64 said:

Not convinced, I still say Han and chewie take round two with superior team work and experience (esp chewie) they also have blasters one of which is a bow caster.

Luke has faced more powerful opponents then these two combined.

He has bested Ormon Tagge twice in battle, he has affected Vader with telepathy, he has thrown blows in a eye flick, deflected blaster bolts from a highly trained cyborg that gave Vader a hard fight, he has created blurring motion/after images with his blade, he has deflected multiple arrows while blinded;etc

Luke stomps this.

#21 Posted by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: can I get proof or on tagge is powerful? I read his bio and He doesn't have anything impressive I'd bet Han could solo him (see what I did there). But seriously he was just a thug with a saber who failed everything he did with it. And who was this cyborg? I'd like to verify what you guys are saying if you think a jobber like this ormon is anything to brag about.

#22 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (27663 posts) - - Show Bio

@drache64:

So...You're speaking out of ignorance and talking about things you know nothing about?

Yeah, I'm done here.

#23 Edited by i_like_swords (18420 posts) - - Show Bio

The bias is strong in this one..

#24 Posted by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: @dccomicsrule2011: so I question you and your response is you don't have to answer? Im just saying I read his bio and He wasn't a force user and has no victories with his saber skills. I am not a solo fan by any stretch but I do think everyone here is underrating him. This is why I want Luke's feats backed up.

#25 Posted by i_like_swords (18420 posts) - - Show Bio
#26 Edited by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio
#27 Edited by dondave (38983 posts) - - Show Bio

Luke

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#28 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (27663 posts) - - Show Bio

@drache64: I don't have answers? Actually I do.

I just don't think it's worth it.

You've made claims with out knowing a lick about the characters in questions.

#29 Posted by JediXMan (31590 posts) - - Show Bio
@drache64 said:

@jedixman: @laflux: @eisenfauste: @shootingnova: @juiceboks: @i_like_swords: I created this thread so I could learn a bit more about EU characters but I'm getting a bit shortchanged here. It's a simple question, what qualifies ormon as a valid threat? He has no solid showings I can verify.

Quite the contrary. People have posted feats that Luke has, yet you insist that Han must win.

Well, obviously, you must have something. If you don't, then your opinion has no weight. I see no reason to rebut an argument that has hardly be said to have been made at all.

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#30 Posted by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: I'd say I know more than a lick. If you have answers I'd very much appreciate them. If you have seen my posts in other threads you would know I can quickly admit I'm wrong but this time I'm taking a stand for once because I am not seeing valid arguments. I went and did my research on wookiepedia and everyone can say it's wrong but I have found it pretty darn accurate for what's written about the books I have read. I may have not read any EU Luke books but I have read a lot of star wars and the wookipedia has always been dead on for Darth bane, vader, obi wan, Yoda etc. I doubt they just happen to be wrong about ormon but I'm open to it. The wookipedia has nothing impressive for him so I was hoping you could supplement that. Beyond ormon Luke has lost every other Battle I read about against actual force sensitives including a tusken raider.

#31 Posted by i_like_swords (18420 posts) - - Show Bio
#32 Posted by Wolverine08 (45982 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by i_like_swords (18420 posts) - - Show Bio
#34 Edited by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman:

Im sorry I seem to not represent my side coherently. Allow me to sun up what I have said this far and expound a bit further.

Chewbacca has fought in the clone wars and has decades of combat experience and Han has imperial military training. Both are established freedom fighters and have solid skills in combat and strategy.

Luke has lived most his life as a moisture farmer and is still young cocky and overconfident.

He has been sighted as defending himself against impressive adversaries but I can't seem to back this up from available resources. I see ormon is just a thug with a light saber and no one will dignify that with a response. I greatly respect your opinions from other star wars threads and I look forward to anything you have to offer, forgive me for being the skeptic.

@i_like_swords

Antagonistic achievement unlocked.

I believe you have accomplished all that you have come here to do. Thank you sir.

#35 Edited by i_like_swords (18420 posts) - - Show Bio

@drache64 said:

@i_like_swords

Antagonistic achievement unlocked.

I believe you have accomplished all that you have come here to do. Thank you sir.

Ha, I'm sorry man but wikis are not reliable source of information for character capabilities. They give the most basic of information and often leave out a lot of necessary details. They're good at giving you a general rundown of a character, and updating you on their most important stories, but the best way to learn the details is to read them yourself.

#36 Edited by Midichlorian (1 posts) - - Show Bio

I just signed up for comic vine and I must say there are some rude people on this site. The op clearly stated that he has never read any EU books and is posing valid questions given his lack of knowledge in this area. No one made anyone comment on this page.

@drache64: I agree that Chewbacca and Han should take it based on my knowledge as well. I would be very interested in those opposing this theory to give actual combat or non-combat instances of why Luke would take it hands down and not, "because he beat this one guy from this book." I never read that book.

P.S. I'm a huge Luke Skywalker fanboy and would love to think he could take it.

#37 Posted by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: this is why I am asking for clarification. But as I stated before I have never personally found wookipedia wanting. When I come across a profile that I am well read up on (like darth bane) you're right it does give the bare bones, giving only the faintest context but when bane defeated kas'im we didn't need to know what he was thinking to know that he beat him.

Im not saying it is never wrong but I think users give wiki too little credit. That is still my unquantifiable opinion though and beside the point, I am just merely looking for more context. Can anyone confirm ormon has any decent saber feats? Or was he just a spoiled baron with a light saber fetish.

#38 Posted by Silverrings (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

Luke stomps. This is not fair at all.

#39 Edited by Jokerpoker (2977 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, I'd say Luke would be a lot more hesitant to hurt Solo than Solo would be to him (I know morals are on though) so you've got that, but I still say Luke would win in the 1st round. But in the 2nd round I have to go with Han and Chewy.

#40 Posted by i_like_swords (18420 posts) - - Show Bio

I just signed up for comic vine and I must say there are some rude people on this site. The op clearly stated that he has never read any EU books and is posing valid questions given his lack of knowledge in this area. No one made anyone comment on this page.

*Has no knowledge on EU*

*Uses EU characters in battle*

*Insists one side wins the battle despite having no knowledge on the characters*

See where things go wrong?

#41 Edited by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

your summary is incorrect.

Why is ormon considered a valid feat if he has no showings to suggest he was an impressive opponent to beat?

What cyborg did Luke defeat that gave Vader a hard time?

*if* anyone knows then please answer.

@midichlorian thanks for the respect :) back at you.

#42 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12483 posts) - - Show Bio

why am I not surprised this is as mismatched as it is.....

@drache64 said:

@dccomicsrule2011: I went and did my research on wookiepedia

oh, right...this explains everything...

#43 Posted by jashro44 (26523 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

For the record: Luke was still good enough to defend himself from a Jedi who was both more experienced than him and amped by a Sith Lord.

(scans are from right to left, for some reason, and I can't fix it)

After comic vine updated you have to upload scans in reverse order if you want them to be left to right.

#44 Posted by Heinrich7 (181 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre Episode 5 Luke was able to hold his own against Mourne for a while. He takes this(But Doesn't kill His friend, imo this is a ko fight).

I love Han, but I don't know how some people think He can take Luke here.

#45 Posted by i_like_swords (18420 posts) - - Show Bio

@drache64 said:

@i_like_swords:

your summary is incorrect.

Why is ormon considered a valid feat if he has no showings to suggest he was an impressive opponent to beat?

What cyborg did Luke defeat that gave Vader a hard time?

*if* anyone knows then please answer.

@midichlorian thanks for the respect :) back at you.

How is what I said incorrect? Creating threads about characters you know little about more often than not causes confusion, especially when you refuse to believe that one side can lose to the other.

#46 Posted by JediXMan (31590 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44 said:

@jedixman said:

For the record: Luke was still good enough to defend himself from a Jedi who was both more experienced than him and amped by a Sith Lord.

(scans are from right to left, for some reason, and I can't fix it)

After comic vine updated you have to upload scans in reverse order if you want them to be left to right.

I know. I've done that with some of my pics, but not all. I have to delete those and reupload them.

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#47 Edited by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio
#48 Posted by i_like_swords (18420 posts) - - Show Bio

@drache64 said:

@i_like_swords:

Okay.

so you can't answer that question?

Nope. I never once argued for or against any of the characters in this thread.

#49 Posted by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: then why... Nvm.

Question stands for everyone else. Get me a book name and I'll read it tonight.

#50 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (27663 posts) - - Show Bio

@midichlorian:

I just signed up for comic vine and I must say there are some rude people on this site.

I love when user think I care what they think of me. Truth be told, I don't.

The op clearly stated that he has never read any EU books and is posing valid questions given his lack of knowledge in this area.

He had question and I gave him answers. When in doubt, trust a Star wars expert and accept it.

No one made anyone comment on this page.

I post what I want, when I want, thank you.

I agree that Chewbacca and Han should take it based on my knowledge as well.

And how much knowledge is that may I ask?

I would be very interested in those opposing this theory

What theory? All I see is fallacious reasoning that is built upon ignorance and nonsense characterization.

to give actual combat or non-combat instances of why Luke would take it hands down and not

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

He has bested Ormon Tagge twice in battle, he has affected Vader with telepathy, he has thrown blows in a eye flick, deflected blaster bolts from a highly trained cyborg that gave Vader a hard fight, he has created blurring motion/after images with his blade, he has deflected multiple arrows and spears while blinded;etc

I guess you haven't been paying attention to anything I posted. These feats are more then enough to suggest Luke would take this.

"because he beat this one guy from this book." I never read that book.

If you haven't read the book, how could you comment on it's legitimacy? Ignorance is not a virtue.

@drache64

I'd say I know more than a lick. If you have answers I'd very much appreciate them.

No you don't.

If you have seen my posts in other threads you would know I can quickly admit I'm wrong but this time I'm taking a stand for once because I am not seeing valid arguments.

Well you should admit you're wrong here, because you most certainly are.

I went and did my research on wookiepedia

I may have not read any EU Luke books

Yet you're still questioning someone who is considered an expert in this area (which I don't think I am personally, but other do.) That makes perfect sense.

but I have read a lot of star wars and the wookipedia has always been dead on for Darth bane, vader, obi wan, Yoda etc.

They have also been dead wrong on several occasions.

I doubt they just happen to be wrong about ormon but I'm open to it. The wookipedia has nothing impressive for him so I was hoping you could supplement that.

The fact that he was able to handle a lightsaber and actually be considered decent at it speaks volume especially when sources have stated they are difficult to control, let alone do any kind of combat:

Mastering the lightsaber requires a lifetime of training. Before the Emperor's violent Jedi purge, the youngest members of the Jedi Order began training in lightsaber combat as soon as they were old enough to hold a weapon.

--Taken from Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology

--Taken from Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Beyond ormon Luke has lost every other Battle I read about against actual force sensitives including a tusken raider.

Nonsense. Luke has bested an android that was reading his every movement and adapting to is every moves, he was able to defeat Kharys, an Force sensitive, while she was mentally effecting him with telepathy and having the massive environment advantage:

This took place in Star Wars Annual 1: The Long Hunt/A Duel Of Eagles if you ever decide to read an EU book.

Luke could drop them with TP if he tried hard enough, he did it with Vader, who has some impressive telepathic showing himself:

I apologize for the poor scan quality

What cyborg did Luke defeat that gave Vader a hard time?

The cyborgs name is Beilert Valance, and Luke never beat him, I said he deflected blaster bolts from him, which he did:

Apologies for the awful scan quality, was sort of in a rush.

Blocking arrows and spears while blinded and surrounded:

Luke is stomping this.

There is no if, and's or but's about it.

@jedixman said:
@drache64 said:

@jedixman: @laflux: @eisenfauste: @shootingnova: @juiceboks: @i_like_swords: I created this thread so I could learn a bit more about EU characters but I'm getting a bit shortchanged here. It's a simple question, what qualifies ormon as a valid threat? He has no solid showings I can verify.

Quite the contrary. People have posted feats that Luke has, yet you insist that Han must win.

Well, obviously, you must have something. If you don't, then your opinion has no weight. I see no reason to rebut an argument that has hardly be said to have been made at all.

Exactly.