#1 Posted by "Colossus" (4111 posts) - - Show Bio

who wins

#2 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
Lucifer. The most powerful of the Endless already admitted she holds no power over him.
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#3 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer
#4 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned.

#5 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Korg said:
" Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "
You speak about Lucifer's life as a whole, or of an encounter between the two that I am unaware of? Because there is no meeting between the two that I can recall.
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#6 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_: His existence as a whole.
#7 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

Also The Endless are Universal powers and Lucifer is multiversal
#8 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn't there a point made that as powerful as he was, Lucifer couldn't beat Destiny or something?

#9 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Korg said:
" @Morpheus_: His existence as a whole. "
Understandable, then.
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#10 Edited by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@AtPhantom said:

" Wasn't there a point made that as powerful as he was, Lucifer couldn't beat Destiny or something? "

He burnt off a few pages from Destiny's book, in an encounter they had. That was actually meant to happen as it warned Lucifer of Fenris's existence. Free will versus destiny is one of the main themes in Lucife, anyway. And while Lucifer may be unable to "beat" Destiny as a representation of inevitability, he can very well beat the personification of Destiny, regardless of the fact that Destiny will get resurrected afterwards. At least until life exists.
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#11 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio
@Korg said:
"Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "

@AtPhantom said:
"Wasn't there a point made that as powerful as he was, Lucifer couldn't beat Destiny or something? "


Well if we look at it like that then there wouldnt be a chance in hell for Lucifer than?
#12 Posted by CosmicSpiral (5471 posts) - - Show Bio
@AtPhantom:  
@Korg:  
 
I don't think we should identity the Endless with the concepts that they are the manifestations of. If the Endless vanished from existence, all of their respective concepts would still exist.
#13 Edited by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio
@CosmicSpiral said:

"I don't think we should identity the Endless with the concepts that they are the manifestations of."

Then there is little point in pitching them into any battle, as they seldom if ever engage in such.
 
@CosmicSpiral said:

"If the Endless vanished from existence, all of their respective concepts would still exist. "

If the Endless vanished from existence, they would be replaced.
#14 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

@Korg said:

" @CosmicSpiral said:
"I don't think we should identity the Endless with the concepts that they are the manifestations of."
Then there is little point in pitching them into any battle, as they seldom if ever engage in such.
 
@CosmicSpiral said:
"If the Endless vanished from existence, all of their respective concepts would still exist. "
No, if the Endless vanished from existence, they would be replaced. "


 

I think he means that there would still be dreams but someone else is the new embodiment.  In the first issue they said the universe was slowly trying to replace dream and in the end Daniel Hall was the new Dream
#15 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
What Spiral meant is, while the Endless are personifications of an action, the action they represent is not bound to them. Which is the reason why, when Destruction abandonded his position, destruction, as an act, endured. They are there, but when someone succumbs to the act they represent, it's not always of their doing.
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#16 Edited by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio
@daak1212 said:

"I think he means that there would still be dreams but someone else is the new embodiment.  In the first issue they said the universe was slowly trying to replace dream and in the end Daniel Hall was the new Dream "

That is what I said. Morpheus was replaced by Daniel. Should any of the others cease to be, they would be similarly reincarnated. It is stated as having already having happened to Despair before Morpheus.
#17 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio
@CosmicSpiral said:
" @AtPhantom:  
@Korg:   I don't think we should identity the Endless with the concepts that they are the manifestations of. If the Endless vanished from existence, all of their respective concepts would still exist. "
I'm well aware of that. I was referring to the actual character.
#18 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" What Spiral meant is, while the Endless are personifications of an action, the action they represent is not bound to them. Which is the reason why, when Destruction abandonded his position, destruction, as an act, endured. They are there, but when someone succumbs to the act they represent, it's not always of their doing. "
Destruction didn't vanish from existence. I realize that not every single act is attributed to the form of the corresponding member of the Endless, but neither do they battle with beings like Lucifer. The closest we have is Morpheus having conflicts with various demons and other gods, which even then are not battles in the strictest sense.
#19 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15258 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" Lucifer. The most powerful of the Endless already admitted she holds no power over him. "

#20 Edited by CosmicSpiral (5471 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, let's not argue about it. I just wanted to point that although Lucifer has a destiny and desires, this has no correlation to a fight between him and Destiny/Desire. All beings in creation, even the Presence, have some concept that the Endless represent. 

#21 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Korg said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" What Spiral meant is, while the Endless are personifications of an action, the action they represent is not bound to them. Which is the reason why, when Destruction abandonded his position, destruction, as an act, endured. They are there, but when someone succumbs to the act they represent, it's not always of their doing. "
Destruction didn't vanish from existence. I realize that not every single act is attributed to the form of the corresponding member of the Endless, but neither do they battle with beings like Lucifer. The closest we have is Morpheus having conflicts with various demons and other gods, which even then are not battles in the strictest sense. "
I believe he used the term "vanish" in a loose sense. Not literally vanish/get destroyed, in which case we know what would happen.
 
I agree that we have rarely seen the Endless engage in combat, in the traditional sense of the word. Dream challenged Desire during the conclusion to Doll's House by grabbing her by the hair, but she quickly admitted he was superior and he let her go, after warning her not to intervene to his affairs again. Very small sequence, but the closest I can think of with two Endless fighting each other. There are other instances involving Dream and the Corinthian, Squatterbloat, the Furies, and Doctor Destiny, but they were circumstancial, for the most part.
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#22 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, speaking in terms of characters: Desire only engages in conflicts by proxy. He/She wouldn't ever try to attack Lucifer directly. That's not really the way the Endless operate. Similarly, Destiny has no interest in engaging in any conflict whatsoever, as he already knows the outcome and the repercussions. Destruction would obviously want nothing to do with it, Dream can't beat him outright, Death has no claim on him, and I doubt Despair or Delirium would be able to phase him. Lucifer could probably destroy their physical forms, so I guess I'd lean towards him in this battle.

#23 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Korg said:
" Ok, speaking in terms of characters: Desire only engages in conflicts by proxy. He/She wouldn't ever try to attack Lucifer directly. That's not really the way the Endless operate. Similarly, Destiny has no interest in engaging in any conflict whatsoever, as he already knows the outcome and the repercussions. Destruction would obviously want nothing to do with it, Dream can't beat him outright, Death has no claim on him, and I doubt Despair or Delirium would be able to phase him. Lucifer could probably destroy their physical forms, so I guess I'd lean towards him in this battle. "
Sounds good.
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#24 Posted by RiseofApocalypse (3992 posts) - - Show Bio
@Korg said:
" Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "
You're talking about Dream.
#25 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@RiseofApocalypse said:
" @Korg said:
" Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "
You're talking about Dream. "
He was talking about Lucifer's life, in general.
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#26 Posted by RiseofApocalypse (3992 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" @RiseofApocalypse said:
" @Korg said:
" Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "
You're talking about Dream. "
He was talking about Lucifer's life, in general. "
But they have never met before on panel. Lucifer was shown to be above and beyond the members of the Endless as Death (probably the most powerful member of the Endless) had no power over him. I don't see how this would be any different in Desire's case.
#27 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@RiseofApocalypse said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @RiseofApocalypse said:
" @Korg said:
" Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "
You're talking about Dream. "
He was talking about Lucifer's life, in general. "
But they have never met before on panel. Lucifer was shown to be above and beyond the members of the Endless as Death (probably the most powerful member of the Endless) had no power over him. I don't see how this would be any different in Desire's case. "
He meant that Lucifer gave into temptations (desires) throughout his life, not that Desire herself got the better of him straightforwardly. They haven't even been on panel together, and as far as I know, Morpheus's funeral was the only time they've been in the same vicinity.
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#28 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio
@RiseofApocalypse said:
" You're talking about Dream. "
No, I'm not. I'm speaking of Lucifer's desires, and how they consumed him throughout his existence.
#29 Posted by "Colossus" (4111 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" @RiseofApocalypse said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @RiseofApocalypse said:
" @Korg said:
" Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "
You're talking about Dream. "
He was talking about Lucifer's life, in general. "
But they have never met before on panel. Lucifer was shown to be above and beyond the members of the Endless as Death (probably the most powerful member of the Endless) had no power over him. I don't see how this would be any different in Desire's case. "
He meant that Lucifer gave into temptations (desires) throughout his life, not that Desire herself got the better of him straightforwardly. They haven't even been on panel together, and as far as I know, Morpheus's funeral was the only time they've been in the same vicinity. "
that would be desire herself though, unless the endless are not actually the embodiment of there names..
#30 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@"Colossus" said:

"that would be desire herself though, unless the endless are not actually the embodiment of there names.. "

 @Morpheus_ said:

" while the Endless are personifications of an action, the action they represent is not bound to them. Which is the reason why, when Destruction abandonded his position, destruction, as an act, endured. They are there, but when someone succumbs to the act they represent, it's not always of their doing. "

 
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#31 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio
@"Colossus" said:
" that would be desire herself though, unless the endless are not actually the embodiment of there names.. "
They are the embodiments of their names, however not every individual act can be directly attributed to the influence of one of the Endless as a character.
#32 Edited by RiseofApocalypse (3992 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:

" @RiseofApocalypse said:

" @Morpheus_ said:
" @RiseofApocalypse said:
" @Korg said:
" Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "
You're talking about Dream. "
He was talking about Lucifer's life, in general. "
But they have never met before on panel. Lucifer was shown to be above and beyond the members of the Endless as Death (probably the most powerful member of the Endless) had no power over him. I don't see how this would be any different in Desire's case. "
He meant that Lucifer gave into temptations (desires) throughout his life, not that Desire herself got the better of him straightforwardly. They haven't even been on panel together, and as far as I know, Morpheus's funeral was the only time they've been in the same vicinity. "
I got that, but like I said Death had no power over him meaning that she couldn't take his soul or whatever she does with the dying/dead characters. So, I don't see how this would be any different in Desire's case. She shouldn't have any power over him or his desires just like Death (who is more powerful) didn't imo.
#33 Posted by "Colossus" (4111 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" @"Colossus" said:

"that would be desire herself though, unless the endless are not actually the embodiment of there names.. "

 @Morpheus_ said:

" while the Endless are personifications of an action, the action they represent is not bound to them. Which is the reason why, when Destruction abandonded his position, destruction, as an act, endured. They are there, but when someone succumbs to the act they represent, it's not always of their doing. "

  "
oh, i thought they were like the marvel abstracts.
like when beyonder killed death. no one in the universe was able to die etc
#34 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@RiseofApocalypse said:
" I got that, but like I said Death had no power over him meaning that she couldn't take his soul or whatever she does with the dying/dead characters. Lucifer has had temptations before for sure, but I don't see how this would be any different in Desire's case. She shouldn't have any power over him or his desires just like Death (who is more powerful) didn't imo. "
Korg already said Lucifer would win the fight. I perceive his original statement as an observation.
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#35 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio
@RiseofApocalypse: Lucifer's desires had complete power over him. More so than Yahweh. That is why I said Desire got the best of him long ago in my original post.
#36 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@"Colossus" said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @"Colossus" said:

"that would be desire herself though, unless the endless are not actually the embodiment of there names.. "

 @Morpheus_ said:

" while the Endless are personifications of an action, the action they represent is not bound to them. Which is the reason why, when Destruction abandonded his position, destruction, as an act, endured. They are there, but when someone succumbs to the act they represent, it's not always of their doing. "

  "
oh, i thought they were like the marvel abstracts. like when beyonder killed death. no one in the universe was able to die etc "
Even if one of the Endless is somehow killed, another point of view of his/herself replaces them shortly. It has happened twice thus far. As long as there is life, the Endless will always be there, one way, or the other.
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#37 Posted by King Saturn (223829 posts) - - Show Bio
Lucifer of the Vertigo stream should be able to beat the personifications of The Endless... on the other hand... Lucifer of the Bible would more than likely lose to The Endless as a whole... since technically his power is nothing like that of the Lucifer Morningstar character... 
#38 Edited by "Colossus" (4111 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:

 since technically his power is nothing like that of the Lucifer Morningstar character...  "

how would you know that?
DC earth humans know nothing of most of lucifers feats
#39 Posted by King Saturn (223829 posts) - - Show Bio
@"Colossus" said:
" @King Saturn said:
 since technically his power is nothing like that of the Lucifer Morningstar character...  "
how would you know that? DC earth humans no nothing of most of lucifers feats "
have you read the Bible ? Lucifer in the Bible is not really a Reality Warping Powerhouse... his power for the most part is Planetary level... and its based strickly on what God allots him to do... whereas Lucifer Morningstar has a lot more liberty and feats backing what he can do... 
#40 Posted by "Colossus" (4111 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
" @"Colossus" said:
" @King Saturn said:
 since technically his power is nothing like that of the Lucifer Morningstar character...  "
how would you know that? DC earth humans no nothing of most of lucifers feats "
have you read the Bible ? Lucifer in the Bible is not really a Reality Warping Powerhouse... his power for the most part is Planetary level... and its based strickly on what God allots him to do... whereas Lucifer Morningstar has a lot more liberty and feats backing what he can do...  "
theres a bible in DC earth and its really the samething.
also the bible was written LONG ago were people couldnt even describe some of the stuff they have seen
how do you think a cave man would describe seeing someone warp reality?
#41 Posted by King Saturn (223829 posts) - - Show Bio
@"Colossus" said:
" @King Saturn said:
" @"Colossus" said:
" @King Saturn said:
 since technically his power is nothing like that of the Lucifer Morningstar character...  "
how would you know that? DC earth humans no nothing of most of lucifers feats "
have you read the Bible ? Lucifer in the Bible is not really a Reality Warping Powerhouse... his power for the most part is Planetary level... and its based strickly on what God allots him to do... whereas Lucifer Morningstar has a lot more liberty and feats backing what he can do...  "
theres a bible in DC earth and its really the samething. also the bible was written LONG ago were people couldnt even describe some of the stuff they have seen how do you think a cave man would describe seeing someone warp reality? "
so you think Cave Men wrote the whole Bible ??? yeah it was a lot of Bronze Age thinking in there... but it wasnt really Cave Men who wrote the Bible... and as far as I recall... I dont ever remembering hearing in any Biblical Texts that Lucifer was party responsible for Creating the Universe we live in... as it was Lucifer and Michael who creating the DC Multiverse... Lucifer in the Bible was created by The Almighty as was the Universe... thats just for starters... 
#42 Posted by OmegaDynasty (9184 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer wins, the only one I know that Lucifer didn't really like was Destiny, because he had somes ort of power over him.
#43 Edited by "Colossus" (4111 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:

" @"Colossus" said:

" @King Saturn said:
" @"Colossus" said:
" @King Saturn said:
 since technically his power is nothing like that of the Lucifer Morningstar character...  "
how would you know that? DC earth humans no nothing of most of lucifers feats "
have you read the Bible ? Lucifer in the Bible is not really a Reality Warping Powerhouse... his power for the most part is Planetary level... and its based strickly on what God allots him to do... whereas Lucifer Morningstar has a lot more liberty and feats backing what he can do...  "
theres a bible in DC earth and its really the samething. also the bible was written LONG ago were people couldnt even describe some of the stuff they have seen how do you think a cave man would describe seeing someone warp reality? "
so you think Cave Men wrote the whole Bible ??? yeah it was a lot of Bronze Age thinking in there... but it wasnt really Cave Men who wrote the Bible... and as far as I recall... I dont ever remembering hearing in any Biblical Texts that Lucifer was party responsible for Creating the Universe we live in... as it was Lucifer and Michael who creating the DC Multiverse... Lucifer in the Bible was created by The Almighty as was the Universe... thats just for starters...  "
not cave men but you know what i mean, if people of today were the ones to have wrote the bible it would of been much more clear
#44 Posted by King Saturn (223829 posts) - - Show Bio
@"Colossus" said:
" @King Saturn said:

" @"Colossus" said:

" @King Saturn said:
" @"Colossus" said:
" @King Saturn said:
 since technically his power is nothing like that of the Lucifer Morningstar character...  "
how would you know that? DC earth humans no nothing of most of lucifers feats "
have you read the Bible ? Lucifer in the Bible is not really a Reality Warping Powerhouse... his power for the most part is Planetary level... and its based strickly on what God allots him to do... whereas Lucifer Morningstar has a lot more liberty and feats backing what he can do...  "
theres a bible in DC earth and its really the samething. also the bible was written LONG ago were people couldnt even describe some of the stuff they have seen how do you think a cave man would describe seeing someone warp reality? "
so you think Cave Men wrote the whole Bible ??? yeah it was a lot of Bronze Age thinking in there... but it wasnt really Cave Men who wrote the Bible... and as far as I recall... I dont ever remembering hearing in any Biblical Texts that Lucifer was party responsible for Creating the Universe we live in... as it was Lucifer and Michael who creating the DC Multiverse... Lucifer in the Bible was created by The Almighty as was the Universe... thats just for starters...  "
not cave men but you know what i mean, if people of today were the ones to have wrote the bible it would of been much more clear "
I dont know about this... but even so... Lucifer thats presented in the Bible is not really on par with the Lucifer of the Vertigo line... Lucifer in the Bible is basically a Planetary Threat... whereas Lucifer Morningstar is more of a Universal/ Multiversal Threat since he created one...