Lucifer Vs The Endless

who wins

Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned.

" Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "

Wasn't there a point made that as powerful as he was, Lucifer couldn't beat Destiny or something?

" @Morpheus_: His existence as a whole. "

" Wasn't there a point made that as powerful as he was, Lucifer couldn't beat Destiny or something? "

"Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "

"Wasn't there a point made that as powerful as he was, Lucifer couldn't beat Destiny or something? "

"I don't think we should identity the Endless with the concepts that they are the manifestations of."

"If the Endless vanished from existence, all of their respective concepts would still exist. "

@Korg said:

" @CosmicSpiral said:

"I don't think we should identity the Endless with the concepts that they are the manifestations of."

Then there is little point in pitching them into any battle, as they seldom if ever engage in such.
 
@CosmicSpiral said:

"If the Endless vanished from existence, all of their respective concepts would still exist. "

No, if the Endless vanished from existence, they would be replaced. "

"I think he means that there would still be dreams but someone else is the new embodiment.  In the first issue they said the universe was slowly trying to replace dream and in the end Daniel Hall was the new Dream "

" @AtPhantom:  
@Korg:   I don't think we should identity the Endless with the concepts that they are the manifestations of. If the Endless vanished from existence, all of their respective concepts would still exist. "

" What Spiral meant is, while the Endless are personifications of an action, the action they represent is not bound to them. Which is the reason why, when Destruction abandonded his position, destruction, as an act, endured. They are there, but when someone succumbs to the act they represent, it's not always of their doing. "

" Lucifer. The most powerful of the Endless already admitted she holds no power over him. "

Okay, let's not argue about it. I just wanted to point that although Lucifer has a destiny and desires, this has no correlation to a fight between him and Destiny/Desire. All beings in creation, even the Presence, have some concept that the Endless represent. 

" @Morpheus_ said:

" What Spiral meant is, while the Endless are personifications of an action, the action they represent is not bound to them. Which is the reason why, when Destruction abandonded his position, destruction, as an act, endured. They are there, but when someone succumbs to the act they represent, it's not always of their doing. "

Destruction didn't vanish from existence. I realize that not every single act is attributed to the form of the corresponding member of the Endless, but neither do they battle with beings like Lucifer. The closest we have is Morpheus having conflicts with various demons and other gods, which even then are not battles in the strictest sense. "

Ok, speaking in terms of characters: Desire only engages in conflicts by proxy. He/She wouldn't ever try to attack Lucifer directly. That's not really the way the Endless operate. Similarly, Destiny has no interest in engaging in any conflict whatsoever, as he already knows the outcome and the repercussions. Destruction would obviously want nothing to do with it, Dream can't beat him outright, Death has no claim on him, and I doubt Despair or Delirium would be able to phase him. Lucifer could probably destroy their physical forms, so I guess I'd lean towards him in this battle.

" Ok, speaking in terms of characters: Desire only engages in conflicts by proxy. He/She wouldn't ever try to attack Lucifer directly. That's not really the way the Endless operate. Similarly, Destiny has no interest in engaging in any conflict whatsoever, as he already knows the outcome and the repercussions. Destruction would obviously want nothing to do with it, Dream can't beat him outright, Death has no claim on him, and I doubt Despair or Delirium would be able to phase him. Lucifer could probably destroy their physical forms, so I guess I'd lean towards him in this battle. "

" Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "

" @Korg said:

" Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "

You're talking about Dream. "

" @RiseofApocalypse said:

" @Korg said:

" Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "

You're talking about Dream. "

He was talking about Lucifer's life, in general. "

" @Morpheus_ said:

" @RiseofApocalypse said:

" @Korg said:

" Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "

You're talking about Dream. "

He was talking about Lucifer's life, in general. "

But they have never met before on panel. Lucifer was shown to be above and beyond the members of the Endless as Death (probably the most powerful member of the Endless) had no power over him. I don't see how this would be any different in Desire's case. "

" You're talking about Dream. "

" @RiseofApocalypse said:

" @Morpheus_ said:

" @RiseofApocalypse said:

" @Korg said:

" Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "

You're talking about Dream. "

He was talking about Lucifer's life, in general. "

But they have never met before on panel. Lucifer was shown to be above and beyond the members of the Endless as Death (probably the most powerful member of the Endless) had no power over him. I don't see how this would be any different in Desire's case. "

He meant that Lucifer gave into temptations (desires) throughout his life, not that Desire herself got the better of him straightforwardly. They haven't even been on panel together, and as far as I know, Morpheus's funeral was the only time they've been in the same vicinity. "

"that would be desire herself though, unless the endless are not actually the embodiment of there names.. "

" while the Endless are personifications of an action, the action they represent is not bound to them. Which is the reason why, when Destruction abandonded his position, destruction, as an act, endured. They are there, but when someone succumbs to the act they represent, it's not always of their doing. "

" that would be desire herself though, unless the endless are not actually the embodiment of there names.. "

" @RiseofApocalypse said:

" @Morpheus_ said:

" @RiseofApocalypse said:

" @Korg said:

" Desire got the best of Lucifer long ago, as far as I'm concerned. "

You're talking about Dream. "

He was talking about Lucifer's life, in general. "

But they have never met before on panel. Lucifer was shown to be above and beyond the members of the Endless as Death (probably the most powerful member of the Endless) had no power over him. I don't see how this would be any different in Desire's case. "

He meant that Lucifer gave into temptations (desires) throughout his life, not that Desire herself got the better of him straightforwardly. They haven't even been on panel together, and as far as I know, Morpheus's funeral was the only time they've been in the same vicinity. "

" @"Colossus" said:

"that would be desire herself though, unless the endless are not actually the embodiment of there names.. "

 @Morpheus_ said:

" while the Endless are personifications of an action, the action they represent is not bound to them. Which is the reason why, when Destruction abandonded his position, destruction, as an act, endured. They are there, but when someone succumbs to the act they represent, it's not always of their doing. "

  "

" I got that, but like I said Death had no power over him meaning that she couldn't take his soul or whatever she does with the dying/dead characters. Lucifer has had temptations before for sure, but I don't see how this would be any different in Desire's case. She shouldn't have any power over him or his desires just like Death (who is more powerful) didn't imo. "

" @Morpheus_ said:

" @"Colossus" said:

"that would be desire herself though, unless the endless are not actually the embodiment of there names.. "

 @Morpheus_ said:

" while the Endless are personifications of an action, the action they represent is not bound to them. Which is the reason why, when Destruction abandonded his position, destruction, as an act, endured. They are there, but when someone succumbs to the act they represent, it's not always of their doing. "

  "

oh, i thought they were like the marvel abstracts. like when beyonder killed death. no one in the universe was able to die etc "

 since technically his power is nothing like that of the Lucifer Morningstar character...  "

" @King Saturn said:

 since technically his power is nothing like that of the Lucifer Morningstar character...  "

how would you know that? DC earth humans no nothing of most of lucifers feats "

" @"Colossus" said:

" @King Saturn said:

 since technically his power is nothing like that of the Lucifer Morningstar character...  "

how would you know that? DC earth humans no nothing of most of lucifers feats "

have you read the Bible ? Lucifer in the Bible is not really a Reality Warping Powerhouse... his power for the most part is Planetary level... and its based strickly on what God allots him to do... whereas Lucifer Morningstar has a lot more liberty and feats backing what he can do...  "

" @King Saturn said:

" @"Colossus" said:

" @King Saturn said:

 since technically his power is nothing like that of the Lucifer Morningstar character...  "

how would you know that? DC earth humans no nothing of most of lucifers feats "

have you read the Bible ? Lucifer in the Bible is not really a Reality Warping Powerhouse... his power for the most part is Planetary level... and its based strickly on what God allots him to do... whereas Lucifer Morningstar has a lot more liberty and feats backing what he can do...  "

theres a bible in DC earth and its really the samething. also the bible was written LONG ago were people couldnt even describe some of the stuff they have seen how do you think a cave man would describe seeing someone warp reality? "

" @"Colossus" said:

" @King Saturn said:

" @"Colossus" said:

" @King Saturn said:

 since technically his power is nothing like that of the Lucifer Morningstar character...  "

how would you know that? DC earth humans no nothing of most of lucifers feats "

have you read the Bible ? Lucifer in the Bible is not really a Reality Warping Powerhouse... his power for the most part is Planetary level... and its based strickly on what God allots him to do... whereas Lucifer Morningstar has a lot more liberty and feats backing what he can do...  "

theres a bible in DC earth and its really the samething. also the bible was written LONG ago were people couldnt even describe some of the stuff they have seen how do you think a cave man would describe seeing someone warp reality? "

so you think Cave Men wrote the whole Bible ??? yeah it was a lot of Bronze Age thinking in there... but it wasnt really Cave Men who wrote the Bible... and as far as I recall... I dont ever remembering hearing in any Biblical Texts that Lucifer was party responsible for Creating the Universe we live in... as it was Lucifer and Michael who creating the DC Multiverse... Lucifer in the Bible was created by The Almighty as was the Universe... thats just for starters...  "

" @King Saturn said:

" @"Colossus" said:

" @King Saturn said:

" @"Colossus" said:

" @King Saturn said:

 since technically his power is nothing like that of the Lucifer Morningstar character...  "

how would you know that? DC earth humans no nothing of most of lucifers feats "

have you read the Bible ? Lucifer in the Bible is not really a Reality Warping Powerhouse... his power for the most part is Planetary level... and its based strickly on what God allots him to do... whereas Lucifer Morningstar has a lot more liberty and feats backing what he can do...  "

theres a bible in DC earth and its really the samething. also the bible was written LONG ago were people couldnt even describe some of the stuff they have seen how do you think a cave man would describe seeing someone warp reality? "

so you think Cave Men wrote the whole Bible ??? yeah it was a lot of Bronze Age thinking in there... but it wasnt really Cave Men who wrote the Bible... and as far as I recall... I dont ever remembering hearing in any Biblical Texts that Lucifer was party responsible for Creating the Universe we live in... as it was Lucifer and Michael who creating the DC Multiverse... Lucifer in the Bible was created by The Almighty as was the Universe... thats just for starters...  "

not cave men but you know what i mean, if people of today were the ones to have wrote the bible it would of been much more clear "

Lucifer or stalemate

probably stalemate

If the Presence(Primal Monitor?) is the be all end all and Lucifer and Michael were created afterwards, Death did not exist. So if Lucifer has a beginning but is immortal(cannot be destroyed). Death(Endless or Marvel doesn't matter) can't touch Lucifer.

@blachimdall: The Presence is not The Primal Monitor, and it is true Death has no claim over Lucifer and same can be said about Michael before he gave his Demiurgos to Elaine Belloc.

Gotta be careful with the usage of the Term Monitor. Because Authors are dumb and didnt clarify well enough for general readers to get it.

Monitor Mind is the Over Void, the white space. Whether you want to believe it is the true form of the Presence, or just another neutral corner stone of all possibility, the actual origin of all things, is up to you as a reader I suppose.

Monitors in COIE should be known as such, just normal Monitors. There was Monitor Prime (positive) and Anti Monitor. We then found out recently there was a 3rd named The Forger. These three ran amok and caused problems.

Over Monitor actually didn't make them. They were born of nothing, they just came to be. Over Monitor saw them and the orrery of worlds and made higher Science Monitors to monitor everything else. (Dax Novu/Mandrakk, Zillo Valla, Rox Ogama, Nix Uotan etc)

Too many say Primal Monitor (Monitor Mind) and think they mean Monitor Prime, or the Positive monitor from Crisis on Infinite Earths and the newer Dark Knight Metal series. They are infinite leagues apart.

Having said that, Lucifer will defeat all of them except Destiny of the Endless. However, if lets say the Presence says sure, you two go ahead and fight and be free of the Plan in Destiny's Book, then Lucifer will wreck that without much of a problem based on feats.

Didn't Lucifer state that Death is inevitable?

OT: All of the Endless win.