#1 Posted by Trance241 (27 posts) - - Show Bio

first round is Lucifer in nicks body Vs Raiden normal version who would win if both were given free range of their powers in a universe/realm or plane of existence fight to the death or 10 count they fight in an arena like area which has a weapons rack containing two archangel blade the hammer and staff Raiden has used in the games used and Deaths Scythe (for this fight lets say all weapons can kill both raiden and lucifer if it mortally wounds them) Who Wins and why?

round two same rules as round one only Lucifer is in Sam's body and Raiden is at his strongest version Same weapons allowed and all weapons can kill each combatants.

feel free to use any media version of Raiden (all games, movie and TV series, as well as the cartoon and legacy series if you wish)

#2 Posted by TERMINATOR1000 (1203 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a huge mismatch

Lucifer Stomps!!!

#3 Posted by Delta1938 (480 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer casually owned(brutally) an entire room full of pagan gods who had amassed to try and stop the war between angels and demons, so I don't think Raiden will do very well.

#4 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@Delta1938: Pagan gods were weak

On Topic: Lucifer stomps.

#5 Posted by TERMINATOR1000 (1203 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938: Pagan gods were weak

On Topic: Lucifer stomps.

No kidding... Such a mismatch... I wanna say Raiden because I like him more, but Lucifer Morningstar controlls reality, warping and magic.

#6 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@TERMINATOR1000 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938: Pagan gods were weak

On Topic: Lucifer stomps.

No kidding... Such a mismatch... I wanna say Raiden because I like him more, but Lucifer Morningstar controlls reality, warping and magic.

"Ahem". Have you read the title? It's Supernatural's Lucifer not Lucifer morningstar.

#7 Posted by TERMINATOR1000 (1203 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos said:

@TERMINATOR1000 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938: Pagan gods were weak

On Topic: Lucifer stomps.

No kidding... Such a mismatch... I wanna say Raiden because I like him more, but Lucifer Morningstar controlls reality, warping and magic.

"Ahem". Have you read the title? It's Supernatural's Lucifer not Lucifer morningstar.

either way Lucifer wins.

#8 Posted by Delta1938 (480 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938: Pagan gods were weak

On Topic: Lucifer stomps.

They were more powerful than the typical demon. And I guess Raiden would qualify as a "pagan god" since, well ya know. Soooooo..........

#9 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938: Pagan gods were weak

On Topic: Lucifer stomps.

They were more powerful than the typical demon. And I guess Raiden would qualify as a "pagan god" since, well ya know. Soooooo..........

Didn't seem that way.... I would say Lucifer's best feat is his battle with Michael which was going to destroy chunck of the earth.

#10 Posted by Delta1938 (480 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938: Pagan gods were weak

On Topic: Lucifer stomps.

They were more powerful than the typical demon. And I guess Raiden would qualify as a "pagan god" since, well ya know. Soooooo..........

Didn't seem that way.... I would say Lucifer's best feat is his battle with Michael which was going to destroy chunck of the earth.

Are you talking about the pagan gods being more powerful than a typical demon by "Didn't seem that way?" If not, what does this have to do with anything I said?

#11 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938: Pagan gods were weak

On Topic: Lucifer stomps.

They were more powerful than the typical demon. And I guess Raiden would qualify as a "pagan god" since, well ya know. Soooooo..........

Didn't seem that way.... I would say Lucifer's best feat is his battle with Michael which was going to destroy chunck of the earth.

Are you talking about the pagan gods being more powerful than a typical demon by "Didn't seem that way?" If not, what does this have to do with anything I said?

Yes I was talking about pagans not being more powerful than demons. It just seemed that way.

#12 Posted by Delta1938 (480 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938: Pagan gods were weak

On Topic: Lucifer stomps.

They were more powerful than the typical demon. And I guess Raiden would qualify as a "pagan god" since, well ya know. Soooooo..........

Didn't seem that way.... I would say Lucifer's best feat is his battle with Michael which was going to destroy chunck of the earth.

Are you talking about the pagan gods being more powerful than a typical demon by "Didn't seem that way?" If not, what does this have to do with anything I said?

Yes I was talking about pagans not being more powerful than demons. It just seemed that way.

Well, you're wrong. Note though I'm talking about typical demons, not the more powerful ones like Lilith or her predcessor.

#13 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938: Pagan gods were weak

On Topic: Lucifer stomps.

They were more powerful than the typical demon. And I guess Raiden would qualify as a "pagan god" since, well ya know. Soooooo..........

Didn't seem that way.... I would say Lucifer's best feat is his battle with Michael which was going to destroy chunck of the earth.

Are you talking about the pagan gods being more powerful than a typical demon by "Didn't seem that way?" If not, what does this have to do with anything I said?

Yes I was talking about pagans not being more powerful than demons. It just seemed that way.

Well, you're wrong. Note though I'm talking about typical demons, not the more powerful ones like Lilith or her predcessor.

Sam and Dean were killing some pagans using some special sticks. At least a normal demon has TK, and possesion. The most powerful god in SN was Kali. And she doesn't begin to compare with her myth counterpart.

#14 Posted by Delta1938 (480 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938: Pagan gods were weak

On Topic: Lucifer stomps.

They were more powerful than the typical demon. And I guess Raiden would qualify as a "pagan god" since, well ya know. Soooooo..........

Didn't seem that way.... I would say Lucifer's best feat is his battle with Michael which was going to destroy chunck of the earth.

Are you talking about the pagan gods being more powerful than a typical demon by "Didn't seem that way?" If not, what does this have to do with anything I said?

Yes I was talking about pagans not being more powerful than demons. It just seemed that way.

Well, you're wrong. Note though I'm talking about typical demons, not the more powerful ones like Lilith or her predcessor.

Sam and Dean were killing some pagans using some special sticks. At least a normal demon has TK, and possesion. The most powerful god in SN was Kali. And she doesn't begin to compare with her myth counterpart.

Those pagans they killed with sticks also weren't big deals compared to the others we see.

#15 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Delta1938: Pagan gods were weak

On Topic: Lucifer stomps.

They were more powerful than the typical demon. And I guess Raiden would qualify as a "pagan god" since, well ya know. Soooooo..........

Didn't seem that way.... I would say Lucifer's best feat is his battle with Michael which was going to destroy chunck of the earth.

Are you talking about the pagan gods being more powerful than a typical demon by "Didn't seem that way?" If not, what does this have to do with anything I said?

Yes I was talking about pagans not being more powerful than demons. It just seemed that way.

Well, you're wrong. Note though I'm talking about typical demons, not the more powerful ones like Lilith or her predcessor.

Sam and Dean were killing some pagans using some special sticks. At least a normal demon has TK, and possesion. The most powerful god in SN was Kali. And she doesn't begin to compare with her myth counterpart.

Those pagans they killed with sticks also weren't big deals compared to the others we see.

Kronos was killed by a stick, and he's one of the most powerful gods in the show.

But still Kali seemed more powerful than Kronos.

#16 Posted by Ms. Omega (4206 posts) - - Show Bio

Raiden is a joke Lucifer stomps.

#17 Posted by Spartan101 (2130 posts) - - Show Bio

raiden as best is a high ranking thunder god,..............he's screwed here.

#18 Posted by HolySerpent (12340 posts) - - Show Bio

no, no, no and some more no on the side. The pagans gods of supernatural re not weak. And yes they are above demons.

#19 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@HolySerpent: yes, yes, yes. They are very weak compared to their myth couterparts. But they really didn't do anything impressive.

#20 Posted by buttersdaman000 (8815 posts) - - Show Bio
@HolySerpent:  
He likes to lowball Supernatural, not understanding that 1. Any Pagan god in the show was killed in the very specific way required to bring about their death and 2. Lucifer owning the Pagan gods in such a way is only a testament to his power. That was the whole point.....
#21 Posted by Dark_Thunder (135 posts) - - Show Bio

In his game incarnations, it's been stated that Raiden has agreed to be bound by tournament rules (i.e. limiting his abilities), so I don't know if it can truly be said that we've ever seen Raiden's full potential. That being said, I do think Lucifer takes this fight neatly; In the MK universe, I don't think anyone below the power level of an elder god would stand much of a chance.

#22 Posted by HolySerpent (12340 posts) - - Show Bio

yeah i realize that.

you do realize each god displayed unique ability like time travel , weather manipulation, superspeed, reality warping (it has been stated by several sources, even though not shown) , telekinesis, telepathy, shapeshifting, able to raise the ghost of the dead, ect....

#23 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@HolySerpent: I know that. Though I don't recall any weather manipulation, and can you be more specific about their reality warping.

But they are still nowhere near their mythological counterparts. Seriously, in hinduism, Kali can level up creation with a scream. There is a huge difference in power.

#24 Posted by buttersdaman000 (8815 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingkronos said: 

But they are still nowhere near their mythological counterparts. Seriously, in hinduism, Kali can level up creation with a scream. There is a huge difference in power.

Obviously....so your whole basis for your lowballing is because these gods are not portrayed to be as strong as their mythological counterparts? Whom, by the way, you hype up way too much, especially when it come to the Greek gods
#25 Posted by BMEZY (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

what is this blasphemy 0_o

#26 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: What? Do you see that I'm low balling here. I said Lucifer stomps in this battle. Read before you accuse people, got that? The pagans are weak when you compare them to other gods in other fictions, like marvel, SMT, Dc, etc...

I hype the gods? Do me a favor and don't answer me, just because you know nothing about mythology doesn't mean I'm hyping them. Try again.

#27 Posted by HolySerpent (12340 posts) - - Show Bio

Gabriel disguises himself as a trickster. Although tricksters are capable of warping reality, just not on the level of archangels. Tricksters are scene as demigods.also bobby confirms that there are other tricksters out there in season 2 episode 15 -Tall tales

#28 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@HolySerpent: I know that Gab disgiused himself as Loki. But I didn't see any massive reality warping feats for tricksters. So where would you put the pagans? On what level, just in your opinion?

#29 Posted by buttersdaman000 (8815 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingkronos said:

@buttersdaman000: What? Do you see that I'm low balling here. I said Lucifer stomps in this battle. Read before you accuse people, got that? The pagans are weak when you compare them to other gods in other fictions, like marvel, SMT, Dc, etc...

I hype the gods? Do me a favor and don't answer me, just because you know nothing about mythology doesn't mean I'm hyping them. Try again.

Follow your own advice and notice that I never even addressed this battle. Ahhh so you finally clarify what you meant. So you will finally stop lowballing, claiming they are weaker than demons, "mortals" (in a demeaning way) because they have a weakness, and so on?? 
And yes you do. I read through these threads, and while I might not know as much about mythology as you, I can tell when somebody's argument is weak and unfounded....pretty much like all your claims that Greek gods are omnipotent. I mean, shouldn't it be obvious?? Plurals and Omnipotent don't mix
#30 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: And for the last time I'll say to you, I'm not low balling. Have it ever occurred to you that you're the one wanking, and I'm not low balling. Yes, some pagans are weaker than demons like Lilth, and the pagans were being killed by sticks and Lucifer's hand in their bodies. What am I supposed to think? Of course I'll say they're not powerful.

Well, when you do know about mythology we'll talk. I actually never stated that greek gods are all omnipotent. You see, you don't even know what you're talking about. The ancient greeks saw all their gods as omnipotents, and I'll give you proof if you want. But you know what? I disagree, because most of them were far from omnipotents. The only one true omnipotent in all greek mythology is Orphic Zeus. Despite that others like Moros, Nyx, Phanes were all stated to be omnipotents. But they were all defeated. So stop trying to concentrate on my mistakes, and mind your own business, would you?

#31 Posted by onilordasmodeus (2485 posts) - - Show Bio

My memory of Lucifer in supernatual is limited. I think is biggest feat was killing all the Pagan gods fairly easily, but I don't remember why exactly they we able to be killed so easily. I seem to remember them being mortal in a sense though, and thus vulnerable. Raiden is different from Lucifer and the Pagans as he is a true eternal being, a true god, while Lucifer and the Pagans were not. Lucifer may have seemingly have god-like power, and his fight with Michael may have had the potential to "blow a chunk out of the Earth," but Raiden fought against an Elder God 1v1 which plunged the Earth in darkness by almost destroying it. Anyway, I doubt Lucfier could extinguish Raiden's soul and vise versa, but Raiden can and has banished beings up to god levels in the past. Raiden wins both rounds. R2 through BFR.

#32 Posted by buttersdaman000 (8815 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingkronos said:

@buttersdaman000: And for the last time I'll say to you, I'm not low balling. Have it ever occurred to you that you're the one wanking, and I'm not low balling. Yes, some pagans are weaker than demons like Lilth, and the pagans were being killed by sticks and Lucifer's hand in their bodies. What am I supposed to think? Of course I'll say they're not powerful.

Well, when you do know about mythology we'll talk. I actually never stated that greek gods are all omnipotent. You see, you don't even know what you're talking about. The ancient greeks saw all their gods as omnipotents, and I'll give you proof if you want. But you know what? I disagree, because most of them were far from omnipotents. The only one true omnipotent in all greek mythology is Orphic Zeus. Despite that others like Moros, Nyx, Phanes were all stated to be omnipotents. But they were all defeated. So stop trying to concentrate on my mistakes, and mind your own business, would you?

Ha how am I wanking? Do you know the meaning of the term? Am I calling any of these gods galaxy-busters or anything like that? Have I even made a claim to how powerful these gods are?? No, not really....so how am I wanking? All I said is that you lowball for the reasons I gave above. Which is true. And you just did it again! Excellent example, right there in the bold! Killed by sticks! So I guess to you, in your mind, anybody can pick up any old stick from the ground, stab those Christmas episode gods (the ones I assume your talking about) and kill them? Right?? It doesn't have to be a specific stick....from a specific tree/mistletoe?? 
Yeah, You kinda did.....go back and read the strongest pagan gods thread 
And......meh
#33 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: Well instead of claiming that I'm low balling, you should have told the people who were claiming that Gab was resetting the solar system, that they were nuts. I know that you need a specific stick, but how did Dean and Sam overpower them in the first place? The fact that Sam and Dean can fight with them, already puts them in the category of "weak gods". So how about you provide me with some real evidence that makes those pagans powerful. Unlike you, I back up my claims.

I never said that. You go reread that thread.

#34 Posted by buttersdaman000 (8815 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingkronos:   
I've never seen anybody say that
Sam and Dean were knocked out and captured at first. Then the doorbell rang and they were able to escape and get the branches. They didn't overpower the gods....and also...Winchester PIS. It actually exist IIRC Kripke sort of backs it.  I don't have to give evidence that these gods are powerful. I was never arguing that...I've even said that they are weak compared to their counterparts. I'm just trying to tell you that you can't lowball them.
You did... 
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/strongest-pagan-gods-strongest-version/675022/?page=2
#35 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: Yes actually there were people claiming that, and even some said this "I would be surprised if Gabriel reality warped on a galaxy level". Yes, I never forgot that.

Yes I said that, but actually I said that only because the greeks actually thought that way. They thought of all their gods as omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Which is obviously wrong.

#36 Posted by buttersdaman000 (8815 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingkronos:  
Well, I don't agree with that. It's hard to actually place the scale of power an Archangel has, especially when they are in their meat suits 
And ok, got it. No hard feelings, cool? 
#37 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: It's hard to judge an archangel's power since most of their feats are talked about, because of the obvious limited budget supernatural has.

We're cool.