Lucifer (Supernatural) vs Morgoth (Lotr)

@buttersdaman000 said:

@kingkronos said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@kingkronos:
So, youre admitting that you distorted and misrepresented Sauron in the previous thread? Thats what it seems like.

Yeah now you really seem to know nothing about LOTR.

First it all began with a song that were singing the valar with Eru. But morgoth was so powerful that he could resist the valar all together. The valar would raise mountains yet morgoth would destroy them, the valar would destroy the mountains and morgoth would raise them. Really buddy go read the creation of the world.

Morgoth had the warhammer called the grond which could not only kill armies but shatter the earth itself..........................

I never claimed to know anything about LoTR.......lol..... Cool? So he can raise and destroy mountains. I'm failing to see how this would harm Lucifer...whom, by your own battle is in his true form, meaning, he is not trapped in the body of a 6 foot man. Castiel, and angel who Lucifer killed with a snap, described his own true form as being larger than the crysler building. Now, assuming that Archangels are even bigger, how big do you think Lucifer would be?? Again, I dont even see how this matters....

Buddy are stupid or what? I'm sorry to say that but you are not understanding anything.

Sauron and Morgoth both have shown these abilities, only morgoth on a much greater scale. Destroying mountains and raising them is just one feat to show that he was able to challenge the Valar.

Also doesn't matter lucifer's size, since like you can see in that above picture that dragon who makes mountains look like toys and who would make lucifer look like a child, is another bitch of morgoth who was created by him.

And Wow now I'm amazed in lucifer's size. Tell me: Can archangels create constellations? It would be hard to imagine that archangels can create anything much less hundreds of stars. And that was done by Varda a less Valar than morgoth.

Before you call somebody stupid, u shuld lern ur grammerz derp. However, you are, without a doubt, the most entertaining and persistent troll to grace comicvine in.....about 2 weeks. And for that, I salute you. I look forward to your next LoTR battle.

Yeah good try at calling me a troll and denying the question because you know that lucifer wins and you just can't except the fact...................

Grow up really.................

i'm really starting to dislike lotr fans.

@TheWitchingHour said:

I think it's important to note that not only did Lucifer destroy Castiel's vessel with snap of his fingers, he also destroyed Castiel's essence. Without any sort of Angelic blade that's an extremely high feat. Also to say that Lucy is less powerful than Michael is erroneous. They are supposed to be equals. Michael just won the last fight. The only two beings who are legitimately more powerful than him are God and Death (Death being debatable).

That being said I agree that Morgoth would win this fight. I think that just due to the nature of television vs. books Morgoth's feats are more significant and epic in scale. And even though Morgoth can't kill Lucifer he can incapacitate him temporarily. That's enough to give him the win in my book.

He can't incapacitate him at all, he can kill his vessel so Lucifer can't manifest in the mortal world, because that's the rule of this verse. However Lucifer would snap his finger and Morgoth is gone.

@hermankeson said:

@Floopay said:

Morgoth should take Lucifer. Lucifer was pretty powerful, considered one of the strongest being in the Supernatural Universe, but he wasn't on Morgoth's level in my opinion. I think he would last a little while, and through cunning and tactics would be able to make this a prolonged fight. But in the end I just don't think he has what it takes.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Morgoth will be crushed under Lucifers hove. Morgoth sure is powerful, but he has nothing on this Arch Angel.

Morgoth can destroy the sun and moon can escape a dimension where there is nothing beyond time and space and reality. His grond can shatter the earth, he has corrupted gods and created beasts. He is only second to God

@kingkronos Where has he destroed the Moon and Sun? His destinity to do so is irrelevant. Not that would matter. That would not effect Lucifer. The place where he can escape is again irrelevant. He would just BFR himself.. The fact that his grond can shatter the Earth is again irrelevant as that would not do anything to Lucifer. Him corupting Gods is again irrelevant. If God is alone with an worm then that worm would be seccond to God but that worm is nothing impresive... Not stating Lucifer wins but what you keep using is irrelevant. I really can't w8 for you're next LOTR vs Supernatural you make. I hope its Morgoth vs Death and you trying to prove how Morgoth can win that one.

@xan84 said:

@kingkronos Where has he destroed the Moon and Sun? His destinity to do so is irrelevant. Not that would matter. That would not effect Lucifer. The place where he can escape is again irrelevant. He would just BFR himself.. The fact that his grond can shatter the Earth is again irrelevant as that would not do anything to Lucifer. Him corupting Gods is again irrelevant. If God is alone with an worm then that worm would be seccond to God but that worm is nothing impresive... Not stating Lucifer wins but what you keep using is irrelevant. I really can't w8 for you're next LOTR vs Supernatural you make. I hope its Morgoth vs Death and you trying to prove how Morgoth can win that one.

Yeah I won't be doing anymore lotr vs supernatural threads since you never listen to reason.

You just compared the Valar to a worm. What the hell does this mean? The valar are much more powerful than archangels, they helped God create the world, Varda can create constellations, Aule can create the sun. And tell me what have archangels done?

So why don't you tell me what is relevant. And how does shattering earth and destroying the sun do anything to lucifer... If you're again refering to his essence then morgoth has one as well, which btw can never be killed, unlike lucifer who can be permenantely killed by an archangel blade. So tell me what lucifer can do to stop morgoth?

@kingkronos I did not compared the Valar to a worm. I made the reference to you stating that the guy is second in creation (or whatever) and that is a feat. They i told you why that is not. If God needs help creating the world then he is not that powerfull.... Well not as powerfull as Supernatural one... Lucifer and Michael are just below him (not considering Death who in that show is aparently the other side of God in a sense, life and death). What is relevant is feats from your man that can effect celestial spirits and not matter. Its irrelevant if he can blow up the universe if that can't hurt Lucifer... Damaging his vessel is irrelevant. Oh yes and there is no "he can't be killed". He just had yet to fight someone powerfull enough. Now we don't even know if Angels are permanently killed. You got that one out of your but. Humans go to heaven and monsters go to purgatory. We could very well have a place where angels go when there essence is dispaled or whatever. Human souls for one are imposible to be destroyed, why would Angels one be any diferent?

Morgoth at full power stomps Lucifer so hard. Even after giving his power to his minions he could still beat puny Lucifer. Lucifer likes to talk the big talk but one hit from Grond and he splatters all over the place. Morgoth's feats are much more impressive then killing a few puny Gods

@xan84: Eru shared his creation with his children the valar. God in supernatural would die.

>blowing up the universe won't kill lucifer. Someone is watching supernatural too much.

And yes morgoth cannot be killed, no valar can truly kill the other. So stop talking about something you don't know about. MORGOTH CAN NEVER BE KILLED. the valar imprisoned him in a dimension beyond time and reality. Stop it man, just stop, go read about morgoth and the gods, then come and argue with me.

>. He just had yet to fight someone powerfull enough....................... Yeah I guess fighting the creators of the universe is nothing compared to lucifer..........yeah sure, you know lucifer killed the mighty pagan gods. BEHOLD THE MIGHTY LUCIFER!!!!

Yes angels die perminantly it is stated in the wiki and everywhere so stop making pointless arguments.

morgoth easily wins he is way too powerful for lucifer to handle, lucifer's biggest feat was destoying the earth with his brother and he will eventually die while morgoth escaped the void of nothingness and was going to destroy the sun and the moon and he was the most powerful valar and even the weakest valar would be too much for lucifer to handle, i think lucifer should be compared with maia not valar though im not sure if he can stand up against the maia they were also extremely powerful

@kingkronos How God would end in Supernatural is irrelevant. He at least could create crep by himself. You aparently can't grast the nothing that an explosion can't harm and imaterial entity like a soul. You try nuking a souls. See how that goes. It does not matter how big an explosion is. A soul would not be effected Morgoth can't be killed in his universe. TOAA (marvel) would snap his fingers and Morgoth would die as TOAA is omnipotent. Again he just never found someone powerfull enough to do it. Also i don't even claim Lucifer is the one to do it or that he wins... There is no place where it is stated they die permanently in the show. Wiki is irrelevant.

@xan84: If you are talking about a soul then it is completely another thing. I understood you wrong....................

And TOAA would kill morgoth but not his essence, understand something not even God can do that. His essence will remain and live forever, that is the definition of true immortality. That is how the gods are in true mythology. They can never die perminantly. Unlike the gods in movies and video games. Mythology gods always are truly immortal with very few exeptions. Take the greeks for example. The battle between the titans and the olympians was ten years and no one had one scratch on his body. Even though the titans were much much more powerful, and Kronos was omnipotent (lets not get into it), Kronos' power knew no limits yet he was unable to kill a god. He was imprisoned thats how he was defeated. Same goes to Zeus the god of gods whose power was much more than all the gods combined and yet he was unable to kill the weakest of the gods. Thats what true immortality means..........

@kingkronos If God can't do it then he is not omnipotent. If he can't do X (does not matter what x is) then he is not omnipotent. Omnipotent means he can do anything. But who knows aparentl even in Supernatural souls can't be harmed or destroyed. This, as i said before could apply to Archangels to as they are in essence spiritual entities. They could have there energy disperse (and yes that would count as a loss) but the souls would go to another place and not die. I mean serious even monsters go to a diference place when they die. The show has yet to touch this subject and i really hope it does in the next season. Also really curious how Castiel and Dean get out of purgatory lol. Also that was the point. If Lucifer get's hit with a planet level of explosion his vessel would be anihilated buy his soul would not be harmed. Not sure if soul is the right word, more like his spiritual essence. Then Lucifer can just recreate his vessel (the human body he is using). That would not do anything to him.

God can kill Morgoth but thats not in his plan

Morgoth has no feats comparable to Lucifer. As you don't listen to reason I will stop trying to explain to you how Lucifer could kill Morgoth, instead Lucifer could just trap Morgoth in a time loop, where Morgoth Is stuck for eternity.

Or he could trap him in a universe without magic where he would become a normal mortal.

@hermankeson said:

Morgoth has no feats comparable to Lucifer. As you don't listen to reason I will stop trying to explain to you how Lucifer could kill Morgoth, instead Lucifer could just trap Morgoth in a time loop, where Morgoth Is stuck for eternity.

I think if morgoth was prophezied to escape a dimension where only god can reside and was beyond time, space and reality, morgoth will have no problem with lucifer's puny little dimension of his.........

@KainScion said:

i'm really starting to dislike lotr fans.

This website made me despise LotR and Star Wars fans lol. I'm a fan of both, but only the movies and LotR novels.

That's not how things work, doesn't matter if he was prophesied or not, the prophets didn't know about Lucifer.

@xan84: Yes I know what an omnipotent is. And I gave you an example about the greeks who could do anything, yes anything they want with the exception of killing one another. Kronos was the supreme being, the ruler of all, he could make anything happen in an instant, but when it comes to killing gods. NO.

This is the same case in Lotr. And perhaps you're right that if mortals' souls go somewhere it is only logical that the archangels' soul go somewhere too. But then that archangel can't do anything in that place. If morgoth's body will be destroyed, his essence will prevail and still be able to come back, not go to a place where there is no escape.

............Then that means that God in LoTR isnt omnipotent............

@buttersdaman000 said:

............Then that means that God in LoTR isnt omnipotent............

He is, he created all the Valar from his thought.....

@buttersdaman000: No I pretty sure Eru can destroy morgoth, but only nothing else since he created him. I told you the greek gods can't kill each other.

@buttersdaman000: I was just giving an example. Read the posts I posted before...... And yes they were omnipotents in mythology.

This is one of the most entertaining debates I have seen in a long long time

@Jayfournines said:

This is one of the most entertaining debates I have seen in a long long time

I'm glad you think so.... Speaking of debates who do you think wins this?

@kingkronos: I don't know enough about LotR to make an educated guess, I didn't even know there was a Morgoth -__-

So finally you agree that Morgoth can die, that means Lucifer CAN kill him too because Morgoth isn't completely immortal.

@Jayfournines said:

@kingkronos: I don't know enough about LotR to make an educated guess, I didn't even know there was a Morgoth -__-

It never hurt to learn new things..........

@kingkronos: from what I can gather...that man yonder says Lucifer is unkillable and you mention Morgoth can kill anything, so i'd go with a stalemate on this one since neither can destroy the other.

@buttersdaman000: No I pretty sure Eru can destroy morgoth, but only nothing else since he created him. I told you the greek gods can't kill each other.

@buttersdaman000 said:

@kingkronos said:

@buttersdaman000: No I pretty sure Eru can destroy morgoth, but only nothing else since he created him. I told you the greek gods can't kill each other.

I dont know what you meant here. And name some of these omnipotents in greek mythology.......

In some scriptures they are actually mentioned to be omnipotent, but in others they obviously aren't.

@hermankeson said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@kingkronos said:

@buttersdaman000: No I pretty sure Eru can destroy morgoth, but only nothing else since he created him. I told you the greek gods can't kill each other.

I dont know what you meant here. And name some of these omnipotents in greek mythology.......

In some scriptures they are actually mentioned to be omnipotent, but in others they obviously aren't.

Yes in some greek gods weren't omnipotents, but there are many scriptures they are depicted as being omnipotent.

@kingkronos said:

@hermankeson said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@kingkronos said:

@buttersdaman000: No I pretty sure Eru can destroy morgoth, but only nothing else since he created him. I told you the greek gods can't kill each other.

I dont know what you meant here. And name some of these omnipotents in greek mythology.......

In some scriptures they are actually mentioned to be omnipotent, but in others they obviously aren't.

Yes in some greek gods weren't omnipotents, but there are many scriptures they are depicted as being omnipotent.

But that was only because the humans might have thought they were omnipotent, but they aren't because they are some things they can't do, and an omnipotent being should be able to do everything, exactly everything.

@hermankeson said:

@kingkronos said:

@hermankeson said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@kingkronos said:

@buttersdaman000: No I pretty sure Eru can destroy morgoth, but only nothing else since he created him. I told you the greek gods can't kill each other.

I dont know what you meant here. And name some of these omnipotents in greek mythology.......

In some scriptures they are actually mentioned to be omnipotent, but in others they obviously aren't.

Yes in some greek gods weren't omnipotents, but there are many scriptures they are depicted as being omnipotent.

But that was only because the humans might have thought they were omnipotent, but they aren't because they are some things they can't do, and an omnipotent being should be able to do everything, exactly everything.

They can do anything except kill each other.

@TheWitchingHour said:

I think it's important to note that not only did Lucifer destroy Castiel's vessel with snap of his fingers, he also destroyed Castiel's essence. Without any sort of Angelic blade that's an extremely high feat. Also to say that Lucy is less powerful than Michael is erroneous. They are supposed to be equals. Michael just won the last fight. The only two beings who are legitimately more powerful than him are God and Death (Death being debatable).

That being said I agree that Morgoth would win this fight. I think that just due to the nature of television vs. books Morgoth's feats are more significant and epic in scale. And even though Morgoth can't kill Lucifer he can incapacitate him temporarily. That's enough to give him the win in my book.

What's more important is that Castiel had lost his grace and he was nearly human as it was shown in the alternate future that he would eventually become fully human after being cut off from Heaven. Lucifer only really killed a normal guy when he snapped Castiel into oblivion. This feat was not high end and was less impressive than killing the Pagans.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@TheWitchingHour said:

I think it's important to note that not only did Lucifer destroy Castiel's vessel with snap of his fingers, he also destroyed Castiel's essence. Without any sort of Angelic blade that's an extremely high feat. Also to say that Lucy is less powerful than Michael is erroneous. They are supposed to be equals. Michael just won the last fight. The only two beings who are legitimately more powerful than him are God and Death (Death being debatable).

That being said I agree that Morgoth would win this fight. I think that just due to the nature of television vs. books Morgoth's feats are more significant and epic in scale. And even though Morgoth can't kill Lucifer he can incapacitate him temporarily. That's enough to give him the win in my book.

What's more important is that Castiel had lost his grace and he was nearly human as it was shown in the alternate future that he would eventually become fully human after being cut off from Heaven. Lucifer only really killed a normal guy when he snapped Castiel into oblivion. This feat was not high end and was less impressive than killing the Pagans.

If Lucifer had killed a normal guy he would have killed Jimmy Novak right? Castiel's essence and his grace were still inside the vessel Jimmy Novak but being permanently cut off from Heaven affected his powers and almost negated them. Essentially he was an Angel who couldn't fight back. That would have been the case if he was connected to Heaven as well because at that point Lucifer was completely out of Castiel's league. To my knowledge Anna is the only angel on the show who has actually lost her grace. Lucifer still obliterated the essence of an Angel without an angelic blade, death's scythe, holy weapons (which also couldn't kill the essence of an angel) or the Colt. That's a pretty impressive feat.

@hermankeson said:

@TheWitchingHour said:

I think it's important to note that not only did Lucifer destroy Castiel's vessel with snap of his fingers, he also destroyed Castiel's essence. Without any sort of Angelic blade that's an extremely high feat. Also to say that Lucy is less powerful than Michael is erroneous. They are supposed to be equals. Michael just won the last fight. The only two beings who are legitimately more powerful than him are God and Death (Death being debatable).

That being said I agree that Morgoth would win this fight. I think that just due to the nature of television vs. books Morgoth's feats are more significant and epic in scale. And even though Morgoth can't kill Lucifer he can incapacitate him temporarily. That's enough to give him the win in my book.

He can't incapacitate him at all, he can kill his vessel so Lucifer can't manifest in the mortal world, because that's the rule of this verse. However Lucifer would snap his finger and Morgoth is gone.

Lucifer was temporarily knocked out by the Colt. Which up until that point was supposed to be able to kill anything in existence. If Morgoth has enough power he could do the same and I believe he does have enough power. Lucifer has only been able to do such things to beings far below his powerlevel. He couldn't snap away Michael or Gabriel or snap to make Death do his bidding. They were all on the same playing field as Lucifer, Morgoth according to his feats and status in the LotR universe is as well.

And between these two a temporary knock out is as close as you're gonna get to a win.

@hermankeson said:

So finally you agree that Morgoth can die, that means Lucifer CAN kill him too because Morgoth isn't completely immortal.

@kingkronos said:

MORGOTH CAN NEVER BE KILLED.

@kingkronos said:

Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end;

-.- just read through this entire thread but i cant believe someone didn't notice this yet -.- he is contradicting himself in these post

According to the prophecy morgoth is going to die so he can be killed -.- so much for someone who cant die -.-

@exhyni9 said:

@hermankeson said:

So finally you agree that Morgoth can die, that means Lucifer CAN kill him too because Morgoth isn't completely immortal.

@kingkronos said:

MORGOTH CAN NEVER BE KILLED.

@kingkronos said:

Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end;

-.- just read through this entire thread but i cant believe someone didn't notice this yet -.- he is contradicting himself in these post

According to the prophecy morgoth is going to die so he can be killed -.- so much for someone who cant die -.-

Yeah, this kid a ridiculous wanker.

@stonerthps said:

@kingkronos said:

@hermankeson said:

Lucifer no competition, he blinks Morgoth out of existance.

Really? And what makes lucifer on morgoth's level anyway? What is lucifer's best feat?

He can't be killed by anything morgoth can do? Good enough feat for me.

And morgoth can't die by anything lucifer or all of supernatural has................ Lucifer was gonna die in his battle with michael, so don't tell me there is nothing that can kill him... Also Morgoth has the GROND which would slaughter lucifer easily....

@hermankeson:

lol yeah i saw that lol :p

@exhyni9: Yes he will die but his essence will remain.

@hermankeson said:

@exhyni9 said:

@hermankeson said:

So finally you agree that Morgoth can die, that means Lucifer CAN kill him too because Morgoth isn't completely immortal.

@kingkronos said:

MORGOTH CAN NEVER BE KILLED.

@kingkronos said:

Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end;

-.- just read through this entire thread but i cant believe someone didn't notice this yet -.- he is contradicting himself in these post

According to the prophecy morgoth is going to die so he can be killed -.- so much for someone who cant die -.-

Yeah, this kid a ridiculous wanker.

Yeah look at you supernatural wankers: Stating lucifer is universal because he took a hit from Kali. Stating Gabriel can create suns moons and planets and stars.

And you call me a wanker..........

@TheWitchingHour said:

@hermankeson said:

@TheWitchingHour said:

I think it's important to note that not only did Lucifer destroy Castiel's vessel with snap of his fingers, he also destroyed Castiel's essence. Without any sort of Angelic blade that's an extremely high feat. Also to say that Lucy is less powerful than Michael is erroneous. They are supposed to be equals. Michael just won the last fight. The only two beings who are legitimately more powerful than him are God and Death (Death being debatable).

That being said I agree that Morgoth would win this fight. I think that just due to the nature of television vs. books Morgoth's feats are more significant and epic in scale. And even though Morgoth can't kill Lucifer he can incapacitate him temporarily. That's enough to give him the win in my book.

He can't incapacitate him at all, he can kill his vessel so Lucifer can't manifest in the mortal world, because that's the rule of this verse. However Lucifer would snap his finger and Morgoth is gone.

Lucifer was temporarily knocked out by the Colt. Which up until that point was supposed to be able to kill anything in existence. If Morgoth has enough power he could do the same and I believe he does have enough power. Lucifer has only been able to do such things to beings far below his powerlevel. He couldn't snap away Michael or Gabriel or snap to make Death do his bidding. They were all on the same playing field as Lucifer, Morgoth according to his feats and status in the LotR universe is as well.

And between these two a temporary knock out is as close as you're gonna get to a win.

your post or argument which ever you want to call is just a waste of your time

A 2 year baby couldn't move this 3.5 pound ball therefore a 4 year old can move it either

that is your post not very good or convincing if that is what you were going for

If you need me to ill explain though it should be clear why

@kingkronos said:

@hermankeson said:

@exhyni9 said:

@hermankeson said:

So finally you agree that Morgoth can die, that means Lucifer CAN kill him too because Morgoth isn't completely immortal.

@kingkronos said:

MORGOTH CAN NEVER BE KILLED.

@kingkronos said:

Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end;

-.- just read through this entire thread but i cant believe someone didn't notice this yet -.- he is contradicting himself in these post

According to the prophecy morgoth is going to die so he can be killed -.- so much for someone who cant die -.-

Yeah, this kid a ridiculous wanker.

Yeah look at you supernatural wankers: Stating lucifer is universal because he took a hit from Kali. Stating Gabriel can create suns moons and planets and stars.

And you call me a wanker..........

Lucifer is beyond omniversal, he is from Heaven which is an entirely different creation.

@kingkronos:Final end seems very definitive to me either way the text implies that he will no longer exist in the material work which in a fight in which nothing can really die is a win towards the other side

Lucifer's body can be blown apart 99billion times and he can just make another one once morgoth stops existing in his material body via the sword then he is no more

@hermankeson said:

@kingkronos said:

@hermankeson said:

@exhyni9 said:

@hermankeson said:

So finally you agree that Morgoth can die, that means Lucifer CAN kill him too because Morgoth isn't completely immortal.

@kingkronos said:

MORGOTH CAN NEVER BE KILLED.

@kingkronos said:

Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end;

-.- just read through this entire thread but i cant believe someone didn't notice this yet -.- he is contradicting himself in these post

According to the prophecy morgoth is going to die so he can be killed -.- so much for someone who cant die -.-

Yeah, this kid a ridiculous wanker.

Yeah look at you supernatural wankers: Stating lucifer is universal because he took a hit from Kali. Stating Gabriel can create suns moons and planets and stars.

And you call me a wanker..........

Lucifer is beyond omniversal, he is from Heaven which is an entirely different creation.

Yeah................ and you call me a wanker. Lucifer is at best planet level, which I doubt he is.