@skyroid: Aztar is Spectre. And at full power he was able to accomplish this.
Yes he has. In fact Entrophy, his son, kills Eternity who wanted to die and destroy the multiverse in the process. Entrophy then re-creates the whole multiverse.
You are also obviously referring to Lucifer # 13 about the creation thing but we have seen fair few people from marvel actually replicate that who aren't even abstract level.
I can do you one better, Alien Entity who explains he is an alien who got powers like those of the abstract, takes the whole of creation within him, recreate all of creation right in-front of Reed Richard while protecting him. All of creation was created by Reed Richards with his help.
Why would this matter?
And manipulating demiurgic energy is nice and all but we have seen Thanos himself absorb the heart of the universe. That was Thanos without any prior amp. Manipulating someone else energy shouldn't automatically make you more powerful.
Here.
First Roma, the omniversal guardian, explains the nature and power of Chaos wave and how it was going to destroy all of creation.
Then the recap of House of M is seen during Die By The Sword you'll like this one.
"Not so long ago, the omniverse was swept by a temporal reality wave of unimaginable power.
"That literally tore the continuum to bits and re-arranged it."
@skyroid: How exactly? In the scans I have shown you not only Spectre comes after being erased from reality but also unlocks the true potential of the power of Spectre through Logoz and becomes nearly as powerful as the Presence. Lucifer or even Michael has never fought that version of Spectre. Hell the Corrigan version who gave Michael a good fight in a losing effort actually operated at half strength since Corrigan mentally and unknowingly limited the power of Spectre due to his desire to function as a human as he once were.
@killemall: infinite*infinite is still infinite so yeah DC Multiverse which is infinite=MARVEL Omniverse which is also infinite
That's not really how it works.
Universe itself is infinity.
Back to your mathematical derival, infinity 1 x infinity 2 = infinity 3, where infinity 3 is > infinity 1 and 2
There are levels of infinity.
Dr. Strange explains the concept of level of infinity
And here Kubik explains to Kosmos the concept of level of infinity.
@killemall: I think he meant that Infinite DC multiverse = Infinite Marvel Omniverse. Or more likely infinite universes = infinite universes.
Multiverse already has infinity number of universe. I see no reason to believe why DC multiverse would be equal to marvel omniverse.
Eternity could hold his own against Lucifer,
No chance. Eternity was trumped by IG Thanos, and I'm pretty sure IG Thanos is nowhere near the level of Lucifer.
What the hell kind of argument is that. So your idea of why Eternity could not hold his own against Lucifer is what? Things you have heard from different individuals around? That's it?
If that's the case and you know very little about Eternity, or Lucifer for that matter, perhaps you should consider not posting?
Yes to the first part, no to the second. Nothing about abstracts being involved is mentioned.
Also would like a scans because erasing something and destroying something are two different. If you destroy something you still have something left. Erasing everything created would erase everything leaving nothing at all behind
You want scans, no problem but the way you say it sounds like you don't believe me which is weird but okay.
The instance is from a bit long so I am just going to post a summary of it but you want the whole details you might want to get the issues. Its Captain Marvel volume 4, issue 5-6
Genis and Entrophy kill Eternity and destroy the multiverse. Easiest summary of that is the recap page.
And we also see Entropy recreated everything.
You second idea about destruction and erasing stuff is self made so I do see a reason to address that.
fair few ppl from marvel actually replicated that? Surviving something that would erase EVERYTHING created? Or you mean they have replicated destroying the multiverse itself while many others survive?
Honestly I think you are just making up a difference where one does not really exists. The recreation of all creation has happened more than once in marvel actuality. The first was in the hands of Sise-Neg when he became Genesis. Dr. Strange and Mordu was right there to witness it. A second time that happens in front of Genis in the issue mentioned above. A third time this happens to Reed Richards and we see Alien Entity do the same.
But if you want to pretend they are different, despite the same word being used on both instance Lucifer and marvel entities then its upto you.
Heck you want something even better? After Beyonder was retconned as cosmic cube, in an alternate reality we see Goblin Force pretend to be the Beyonder. Two things here:
1. Beyonder was already retconned as a cosmic cube and we know cosmic cube are less powerful than Eternity
2. Goblin Force was orginally defeated by a small group of Celestials thereby making it less powerful than Eternity.
You know how powerful it was stated to be?
This is much better than anything Lucifer has every shown to do.
I remember reading his comic long ago and I remember he "universe".
It's not that obvious. The spark of all creation starts from 616 reality. You have to understand how Marvel multiverse is created and how they are placed. Every multiverse has a prime reality. The prime reality of the marvel's main multiverse is 616 reality.
What Alien Entity does is erase the very prime reality to a point nothing existed. Then create a spark of creation that created ALL there is.
Even if not, its still not equal to Lucifer's. Lucifer manipulate power into the forces to create a multiverse were it did not exist, What alien entity did was warped what was already there to retreate the universe.
That is also not what really happened. They turned back time itself to a point before creation. Where there was absolutely nothing left. Pre-creation and the creation part is done by them.
because there's no way for Lucifer to die except by God? Showing inability to die is something no one here can possible say except Death of the endless.
When two metaphical concepts clash, one that is more powerful is victorious regardless of whether you argue Lucifer can die or otherwise. Not to mention, it's pretty hard for you to even prove someone whose power are beyond multiversal in scope can't kill Lucifer.
As per unable to being killed, The Wolf Beneath the Tree disagrees with you.
I would post what demiurgic power it's capable of but I don't have access to PC at the moment still in vacation. It's God 's given limitless power, building block of everything.
Just statements or actual feats? Coz if you can post the latter. I can't say my knoweledge on Michael is perfect, Lucifer though I have read all his appearances at least before the NEw 52 reboot.
-I didn't understand the comparison...
Oh its rather simple really, manpulating limitless energy doesn't necessarily make you more powerful than Eternity. The Heart of Infinity likewise is limitless energy. Going by other smaller example, Silver Surfer manipulated the crunch, the very energy source of the whole universe. Doesn't mean much for Silver Surfer and I don't think you'd want to argue Silver Surfer is universal anyways.
There's that.
what does that even mean?
Means exactly what I stated earlier, that her power tore apart and re-created the omniverse.
@killemall: no it wasn't the Omniverse. That would mean that she also affected our universe. The Omniverse is the collection of all universes, both real and fictional.
The problem with this idea is the definition of omniverse you are referring to has only been stated in 2006 handbook and dropped immediately after that. What Marvel's working defination of omniverse encompass though is just collection of all realities inside Marvel. All fictional with no real universes being involved.
Here's another instance on panel that explains the concept of the omniverse.
So real world is not involved as far as marvel is concerned. Not to mention all of creation in marvel is tied to a single point, the creation of the big bang.
@killemall: the set of odd numbers are still infinte which would equal to all the numbers which are infinte.
You are looking at the end product and ignoring the connecting idea. The connecting idea is that there are levels of infinity. One infinity can be bigger than other while both being limitless.
. You told that infinite1 * infinite2= infinite3 where infinite3>infinite1 and infinite2, but it is false since infinite means endless and there would not be an end to infinite1 or infinite2 to be considered smaller than infinite3.
That's different from the idea based on which marvel actuality is establised. Limitless itself is a minor consideration. Each series Infinity 1 , Infinity 2 and Infinity 3 are limitless, and infinite. But what we know is that one of them is bigger.
The same goes for the derival you are putting forth, that DC multiverse = marvel omniverse because of this. Just being they both include infinity number of universes doesnt automatically make then equal, because 1 infinity can be bigger than other.
To consider a number or anything is greater than something, that something should have an end so that anything would extend beyond the end of something.
That's the whole idea that marvel is based on. You have read the earlier 2 scans I posted, here's another one.
The idea that I am pointing to in this scan is the one on the top right, "transfinite"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfinite_number
Another reference to the idea of level of infinity and that you can have multiple infinity with each bigger than other.
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