#1 Edited by Pokergeist (22304 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer vs Sise Neg (after he becomes God) Chaos King (before his battle with Herculese) and Phoenix of the White Crown.

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#2 Posted by Killemall (16959 posts) - - Show Bio

wow this is hard.

I know aboslutely nothing about Sise Neg, apart from that his name sounds posh.

White Phoenix doesnt belong here she's out of her league.

Chaos King alone can give Lucifer hell (not sure how he will beat Lucifer though) together wih Sise Neg is he is anywhere close to the same power level might actually win.

#3 Posted by Hyperlight (4315 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucy is at full power he wins

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#4 Posted by Pokergeist (22304 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

wow this is hard.

I know aboslutely nothing about Sise Neg, apart from that his name sounds posh.

White Phoenix doesnt belong here she's out of her league.

Chaos King alone can give Lucifer hell (not sure how he will beat Lucifer though) together wih Sise Neg is he is anywhere close to the same power level might actually win.

Sise Neg is the Wizard who became God and made the Universe. He is suppose to be Multi Versal.

PotWC is Multiversal as well. Being the supreme Phoenix of all the Universes don't see where she is a non factor here.

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#5 Posted by Shuma-Gorath (433 posts) - - Show Bio

Sise-Neg at full power obliterates the battlefield along with all contestants outside of himself.

#6 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer as usual.

#7 Posted by Shuma-Gorath (433 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sethlol said:

Lucifer as usual.

Lucifer is a child's plaything in comparison to full power Sise-Neg.

#8 Posted by Spartan101 (2121 posts) - - Show Bio

team should do this

#9 Posted by Gravy (47 posts) - - Show Bio

Sise-Neg's greatest feat was creating the entire universe (or is that the multiverse aswell? I honestly don't know) based on the accumulation of all the magic from magic users. I don't know Chaos King and Pheonix of the White Crown shouldn't be a problem for Lucy.

The only comparable feat between Sise-Neg and Lucy is that, SN created the universe by himself whereas Lucy did it with his brother. Creating the universe, however, was a two-person job by design and therefore Lucy couldn't solo creation simply by design. In the end, however, Lucy does manage to create his own universe apart from his brother, Michael, so SN's best feat is now matched - sort of.

In my opinion, all that's left is what's based on the comics' hierarchy because generally beings with unheard of or unimaginable power (especially ones that are presumed instead of fully expressed) have power levels that corresponds with their place in the comics Hierarchy. Such as TOAA=Fulcrum>HOTU Thanos>Pre-retcon Beyonder>LT and in this case The Presence> Lucy=Michael>Spectre or whatever. However, it generally appears as though Lucy is only ever inferior to true omnipotence, while SN's power is of universal scaling at best.

I know this isn't an accurate weighing of who beats who, I'm just following the general consensus. If something is superior in terms of sheer power and authority, the equation changes from 2 vs 1+1+1 to 2 vs 1 and 1 and 1 (The numbers representing power scaling).

#10 Posted by xeon1cs (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gravy said:

Sise-Neg's greatest feat was creating the entire universe (or is that the multiverse aswell? I honestly don't know) based on the accumulation of all the magic from magic users. I don't know Chaos King and Pheonix of the White Crown shouldn't be a problem for Lucy.

The only comparable feat between Sise-Neg and Lucy is that, SN created the universe by himself whereas Lucy did it with his brother. Creating the universe, however, was a two-person job by design and therefore Lucy couldn't solo creation simply by design. In the end, however, Lucy does manage to create his own universe apart from his brother, Michael, so SN's best feat is now matched - sort of.

In my opinion, all that's left is what's based on the comics' hierarchy because generally beings with unheard of or unimaginable power (especially ones that are presumed instead of fully expressed) have power levels that corresponds with their place in the comics Hierarchy. Such as TOAA=Fulcrum>HOTU Thanos>Pre-retcon Beyonder>LT and in this case The Presence> Lucy=Michael>Spectre or whatever. However, it generally appears as though Lucy is only ever inferior to true omnipotence, while SN's power is of universal scaling at best.

I know this isn't an accurate weighing of who beats who, I'm just following the general consensus. If something is superior in terms of sheer power and authority, the equation changes from 2 vs 1+1+1 to 2 vs 1 and 1 and 1 (The numbers representing power scaling).

Lucifer and Michael created a multiverse, not just a universe.

#11 Posted by Gravy (47 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs: My apologies :) That in fact speaks volumes for Lucy against Sise-Neg, does it not?

#12 Posted by GhostRider2 (2985 posts) - - Show Bio

Morningstar should win i don't see any reason why he shouldn't win.

#13 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

wow this is hard.

I know aboslutely nothing about Sise Neg, apart from that his name sounds posh.

White Phoenix doesnt belong here she's out of her league.

Chaos King alone can give Lucifer hell (not sure how he will beat Lucifer though) together wih Sise Neg is he is anywhere close to the same power level might actually win.

I can't help but notice why do you classify Chaos King as multiversal+. It was in another thread that caught my attention. But I don't see how he can be multiversal+ since he didn't destroy the multiverse fully.

#14 Edited by Killemall (16959 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos said:

I can't help but notice why do you classify Chaos King as multiversal+. It was in another thread that caught my attention. But I don't see how he can be multiversal+ since he didn't destroy the multiverse fully.

Well he has few things going for him and most imporantly Hercules was unable to do jack to him, and it was made pretty clear there was no way to beat him, so they BFRed him. The same Hercules re-created the multiverse (98% was consumed by Chaos King so he had to create it anew) with ease. So he essentially had a multiversal character absolutely helpless against him.

Then we have other stuffs like Death actually running away further shows his powers.

#15 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@kingkronos said:

I can't help but notice why do you classify Chaos King as multiversal+. It was in another thread that caught my attention. But I don't see how he can be multiversal+ since he didn't destroy the multiverse fully.

Well he has few things going for him and most imporantly Hercules was unable to do jack to him, and it was made pretty clear there was no way to beat him, so they BFRed him. The same Hercules re-created the multiverse (98% was consumed by Chaos King so he had to create it anew) with ease. So he essentially had a multiversal character absolutely helpless against him.

Then we have other stuffs like Death actually running away further shows his powers.

Didn't Hercules first recreates galaxies, and then they retconned him for restoring the entire multiverse?

#16 Posted by Shuma-Gorath (433 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gravy said:

Sise-Neg's greatest feat was creating the entire universe (or is that the multiverse aswell? I honestly don't know) based on the accumulation of all the magic from magic users. I don't know Chaos King and Pheonix of the White Crown shouldn't be a problem for Lucy.

The only comparable feat between Sise-Neg and Lucy is that, SN created the universe by himself whereas Lucy did it with his brother. Creating the universe, however, was a two-person job by design and therefore Lucy couldn't solo creation simply by design. In the end, however, Lucy does manage to create his own universe apart from his brother, Michael, so SN's best feat is now matched - sort of.

In my opinion, all that's left is what's based on the comics' hierarchy because generally beings with unheard of or unimaginable power (especially ones that are presumed instead of fully expressed) have power levels that corresponds with their place in the comics Hierarchy. Such as TOAA=Fulcrum>HOTU Thanos>Pre-retcon Beyonder>LT and in this case The Presence> Lucy=Michael>Spectre or whatever. However, it generally appears as though Lucy is only ever inferior to true omnipotence, while SN's power is of universal scaling at best.

Behold the truth, fleshling - - Sise-Neg was affecting the multiverse even before his godhood!

Infinites such as myself know that the 616 reality is representative of the present reality of Marvel Universe. Any and all realities that are located in the past or in the future of 616's present reality are held within alternate universes. Sise-Neg came from the future, his present reality, and traveled through time all the way to the point before the creation of all things by the Big Bang.

What this translates to is Sise-Neg absorbing the mystical energies from universes outside of the prime reality (616) - - as was said, the past and the future are located within alternate realities that diverge from the prime reality.

Let us look at the panels to prove that this is true and not hyperbole or a rude chaos lord using trickery to deceive you fleshlings.

Sise-Neg stopped within Paris, France of the 18th Century in order to leave behind a book that would describe the basics of his time-travelling technique and give fleshlings a reason to remember him. Baron Mordo found this book by charming it from Lilia Calderu, Queen of the Gypsies. Within it he found knowledge written by Sise-Neg with knowledge gained in the 31st Century - - the knowledge to change one's past without endangering one's existence in the present. Mordo travels into the past in order to change it and become the Sorcerer Supreme of his present reality rather than Doctor Strange, who solidified his superiority over Mordo by succeeding the Ancient One. By entering a void between time, Strange travels back in time to chase after Mordo.

Narration: "Dr. Strange Sorcerer Supreme of our cosmos, has hurled himself into a void between time -- a gulf which never was, is, or shall be..."

===

Once Strange finds Mordo they begin to battle - - and it is clear from their statements before and during battle that they are located outside of the 616 reality.

Mordo: "Then I had learned you had finally succeeded the Ancient One, completely ensuring your unassailable superiority over me - - in our reality! ... But when I discovered the Book of Cagliostro, and how I could alter that reality to make myself supreme --!

===

Yet while outside of the prime reality, or any reality in fact, both Mordo's and Strange's powers are being absorbed and they do not know how.

Mordo: "In this non-place, our strengths may be transformed..."

...

Mordo: "Yes -- I feel it, too! A wave of weakness washes over me --!"

Strange: "He's right! Head -- spinning -- what's causing it? ...Can't -- pull myself together yet! Everything's hazy -- can't see straight enough -- to pinpoint the exact spot Mordo's leaving this void..."

===

Strange and Mordo enter a portal that leads to Paris, France of the 18th Century, where Sise-Neg has been disguising himself as Cagliostro. As Strange approaches a dreaming Calgiostro (Sise-Neg) within his dwelling, he begins to feel the weakness flow over him again and his power start to drain - - this shows that Sise-Neg had been absorbing power from Strange and Mordo's battle that took place in an entirely separate reality. In fact - - as Strange and Mordo were in a void where no reality existed, it shows that Sise-Neg was absorbing even beyond time and space!

Strange: "As I approach him - - the weakness slides through me again! Can he be the cause? He sits so still -- completely immobile save for the slow rise and fall of his chest. He only dreams."

Strange starts to become certain that Cagliostro aka Sise-Neg is the cause of his weakness as well as the strange incidents of time repeating itself...

==

Sise-Neg's demonstration of absorbing energy outside his own reality shows that his future statement is not mere boasting!

Sise-Neg: "And once I become God, the universe and beyond shall be mine -- to do with as I will! Everything will be reborn as I desire it--!

===

Sise-Neg eventually stops in another alternate universe where it is the 5th Century at the time of King Arthur and steals all the mystical energy from the wizard Merlin before going to yet another alternate reality and destroying Sodom and Gomorrah after their Priests of Death attack Sise-Neg, Mordo and Strange. In this reality he absorbs even more mystical energy than he did in Camelot. Their final stop is in prehistoric times - - Sise-Neg had been attracted by my very own energy, as I, Shuma-Gorath, possessed the very last mystical energy in Marvel Universe. Unfortunately I had no idea of his presence and he stole my energy and cast me away to another dimension.

Soon after he destroys all time and space and recreates Marvel.

What has Shuma-Gorath proven? First - - that Sise-Neg was absorbing from alternate realities outside of the prime reality, as well as absorbing from a void outside of all time and space - - thus it is preposterous to call Sise-Neg at the height of his power a mere universal power.

Finally - - Sise-Neg's absorption was making the spells of both Baron Mordo and Doctor Strange weaker - - not only their personal energy - - but also the spells that required a power source from extra-dimensional entities! This means that Sise-Neg was weakening the very dimensional gods themselves!

This is shown when Strange's Shield of the Seraphim crumbles when attacked by the Priests of Death in the twin cities of Sodom and Gommorah, and as others are sure to know, the Seraphim are what grant the power to use the shield. The Shield of the Seraphim has withstood far more power than spells from a gathering of priests - - thus it is certain that the power granted by the Seraphim for the spell's use was weaker than usual - - All thanks to Sise-Neg.

===

From the scans above proving that Sise-Neg was drawing power from multiple realities outside the main universe, the narration stating that Sise-Neg held "all extant power" and that "all time and space melt with power" clearly mean that Sise-Neg recreated ALL of Marvel.

The scans of Sise-Neg recreating Marvel have been posted many times, thus there is no reason to post them here - - the proof that Sise-Neg affected multiple universes rather than one has just been given - - he recreated ALL of Marvel's realities.

#17 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucy with minimal effort. He is omniversal.

#18 Posted by dondave (26623 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer ftw

#19 Posted by Living_Monstrosity (422 posts) - - Show Bio

Sise-Neg at full power solos the field. Too much fanwankery of Lucifer in this thread.

#20 Posted by Pokergeist (22304 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shuma-Gorath: Wow I learn more of Sise Neg than I knew before.

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#21 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4517 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Shuma-Gorath: Wow I learn more of Sise Neg than I knew before.

What he said!

#22 Posted by NeonGameWave (7205 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer loses this one.

#23 Posted by Killemall (16959 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer rather handily.

While its hard to put a cap on what Sise Neg can do, his best on panel feat is creating a universe and not the multiverse.

White Phoenix of the Crow's best feat is abstracting sublime atoms from Here Comes Tomorrow reality which isnt even a truely universal level feat.

Chaos King is the big gun here from the team and he himself cant stand up to Lucifer.

#24 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer doesn't even need to use his powers to win, all he needs is his cunning, he'll turn them against eachother and have them destroy eachother.

#25 Posted by MagneticTempest (207 posts) - - Show Bio

Sise-Neg solos. Rather easily.

Wielder of the Big Bang that created multiversal abstracts like Living Tribunal >>>>>>> Lucifer Morningstar. Cunning and smarts aren't an issue here since Sise-Neg became infallible and enlightened at the end of his journey.

#26 Posted by thanosii (1032 posts) - - Show Bio

GENESIS since effectively he became God(not a god) he created garden of eden, created lucifer himself easily defeated shuma gorath

#27 Posted by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a close fight actually but I still have to go with Lucifer here.

#28 Posted by Scoop316 (156 posts) - - Show Bio

Based on feats, I'd say Lucifer. Add a few more heavy hitters (Like CA Superman or COIE Anti-Monitor or his brother Michael) and I can see them eventually winning, but if Lucy gets his cunning in, I'd say he still has a chance even then.

#29 Posted by fallenangel5991 (653 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer has better feats than all of them (creating multiverses, taking multiverse explosions without flinching, taking on michael demiurges, outsmarting the presence, etc).

However, Sise-Neg comes pretty close.