Lucifer Morningstar vs Pre-retcon MM vs Dr. Manhattan
" Lucifer Morningstar. Realistically, he should be beyond MM's influence, as he is a spiritual entity, neither matter nor energy. Of course, in the world of comic books, it's usually anything goes, so who knows. I'd still say Lucifer would win though. "Yeah, I agree.
Also, Dr. Manhattan is totally and utterly screwed here. He is a minor-league matter manipulator compared to most other matter manipulators.
Honestly I dont know whos stronger between the two(Lucifer and Pre-retcon MM). Lucifers will is the equivalent to molecular shapage which is what MM does. Im still kinda leaning towards Lucifer but I think MM could give him a good fight,. It would be fun to see the guy who shaped his own being(DR.M) would fair against himself.
Lucifer Morningstar wins. He's made up of spirits, not matter or atoms and energy, so the disintegration can't hurt him.
I think Dr.M vs Pre-R MM is a good fight.
@morleericks: Yes... Kind of... There is arguments for Pre-Retcon Molecule Man tho. Doctor Manhattan shouldn't even be in this battle.
OOT: That is one horrible Lucifer picture.
I am not that knowledgeable on these characters but shouldnt Lucifer win handily
Not really. PR molecule man was staggering PR Beyonder with his blasts, which was said to destroy a billion dimensions. This was the same Beyonder who was million times more powerful than the whole Marvel universe combined. Even nigh omnipotent cosmic tier characters like the Living Tribunal or Eternity were nothing more than microbes compared to him.
Lucy does have a chance since he is the master of manipulation and Owen is rather weak willed. But in terms of raw power, he gets destroyed.
Of course, Manhattan is so out of his depth here that I actually feel bad for him.
Lucy's only hope to win is to Manipulate Molecule Man. In a 1v1 fight he would get rekt
Dr.Manhattan shouldn't be here
I am not that knowledgeable on these characters but shouldnt Lucifer win handily
Not really. PR molecule man was staggering PR Beyonder with his blasts, which was said to destroy a billion dimensions. This was the same Beyonder who was million times more powerful than the whole Marvel universe combined. Even nigh omnipotent cosmic tier characters like the Living Tribunal or Eternity were nothing more than microbes compared to him.
Lucy does have a chance since he is the master of manipulation and Owen is rather weak willed. But in terms of raw power, he gets destroyed.
Of course, Manhattan is so out of his depth here that I actually feel bad for him.
Except PR Molecule Man admitted that The Beyonder was more powerful than him. Furthermore, Lucifer is responsible for the creation of the DC omniverse, which consists of multiple creations, which have metaverses which includes an infinite amount of multiverses which consists of an infinite amount of universes. So a billion dimensions versus a metaverse (consisting of an infinite amount of infinite).
Nigh-omnipotent battles are stupid though. Lucifer and Molecule Man can straight up will each other out of existence.
@bdelloidgrain2: That's why I said "staggering". Molecule Man stood no real chance against Beyonder but he was the only one in the entire multiverse who could do something to him.
And I would like to see a scan which shows Lucifer creating the DC universe.
@bdelloidgrain2: That's why I said "staggering". Molecule Man stood no real chance against Beyonder but he was the only one in the entire multiverse who could do something to him.
And I would like to see a scan which shows Lucifer creating the DC universe.
I got you :)
@bdelloidgrain2: That's why I said "staggering". Molecule Man stood no real chance against Beyonder but he was the only one in the entire multiverse who could do something to him.
And I would like to see a scan which shows Lucifer creating the DC universe.
Lucifer needed Michael to do it (I should have mentioned that previously). By himself, he managed to create his own multiverse outside of creation (thus creating a separate creation). Here are some more scans:
@bdelloidgrain2: But that shows the creation of a universe. It doesn't say anything about creating the DC multiverse itself. Plus I am pretty sure that prior to the new 52, the Vertigo verse was treated as a separate canon with an occasional crossover now and then.
@bdelloidgrain2: But that shows the creation of a universe. It doesn't say anything about creating the DC multiverse itself. Plus I am pretty sure that prior to the new 52, the Vertigo verse was treated as a separate canon with an occasional crossover now and then.
Before anything even existed, the Presence created Michael and Lucifer. Michael, using the Demiurgic power, created creation while Lucifer shaped that into stars, planets, life, etc. I would recommend reading the comicvine character bio's regarding the brothers as it goes into pretty good detail explaining their power's.
Vertigo verse I would not consider a separate cannon. Characters made crossovers quite frequently. Swamp Thing is a good example. Another pretty good example is Michael and Lucifer coming into the Spectre volume 3. In this, we see Michael defeat Spectre.
@bdelloidgrain2: I was looking for an official scan or author confirmation, but okay, no worries.
@bdelloidgrain2: I was looking for an official scan or author confirmation, but okay, no worries.
Let me keep looking. I might find something.
@bdelloidgrain2: Sure thing.
@bdelloidgrain2: Sure thing.
These scans show either the threatening or the creation of everything DC. Pay attention to when Michael dies (not when Lucifer stabs him). The blast that erupts from Michael when he dies is stated to "overwhelm everything that exists." That's the Demiurgic Power that Michael has (Lucifer = Michael). Let me upload some scans showing what everything in DC/Vertigo consists of.
@bdelloidgrain2: Sure thing.
Here are some feats showing DC/Vertigo creation:
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