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#1 Posted by WillPayton (9583 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer Morningstar vs Eternity

..vs..

Who wins?

#2 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer takes this pretty handily.

#3 Posted by Shavo (2061 posts) - - Show Bio

lucifer stomps to beat eternity u have to destroy the universe and lucifer is well...omniversal level

#4 Posted by Nefarious (21436 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer.

#5 Posted by WillPayton (9583 posts) - - Show Bio

@KINGJAMES447 said:

lucifer stomps to beat eternity u have to destroy the universe and lucifer is well...omniversal level

As far as I know Eternity is at least multiversal.

#6 Posted by NeonGameWave (8043 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer with ease.

#7 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1578 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

@KINGJAMES447 said:

lucifer stomps to beat eternity u have to destroy the universe and lucifer is well...omniversal level

As far as I know Eternity is at least multiversal.

Eternity is not just multiversal level, he is the multiverse

#8 Posted by WillPayton (9583 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

@WillPayton said:

@KINGJAMES447 said:

lucifer stomps to beat eternity u have to destroy the universe and lucifer is well...omniversal level

As far as I know Eternity is at least multiversal.

Eternity is not just multiversal level, he is the multiverse

That's what I mean, Eternity = Multi-Eternity, AFAIK. Correct?

#9 Posted by Shavo (2061 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

@WillPayton said:

@KINGJAMES447 said:

lucifer stomps to beat eternity u have to destroy the universe and lucifer is well...omniversal level

As far as I know Eternity is at least multiversal.

Eternity is not just multiversal level, he is the multiverse

That's what I mean, Eternity = Multi-Eternity, AFAIK. Correct?

umm omniversal is more powerful than multiversal last time i checked

#10 Posted by Dredeuced (5730 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

@WillPayton said:

@KINGJAMES447 said:

lucifer stomps to beat eternity u have to destroy the universe and lucifer is well...omniversal level

As far as I know Eternity is at least multiversal.

Eternity is not just multiversal level, he is the multiverse

http://www.comicvine.com/eternity/29-11332/

Each universe in the multiverse has it's own Eternity. His role is relatively unchanged.

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#11 Posted by dondave (38634 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer

#12 Posted by WillPayton (9583 posts) - - Show Bio

So if even Eternity cant take down Lucifer, who in Marvel can?

#13 Edited by BlueHope (360 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

So if even Eternity cant take down Lucifer, who in Marvel can?

TOAA, Beyounder, Protege, Scathan, LT(maybe), Pre Molecule Man(maybe), Thanos with heart of universe

#14 Posted by New_World_Order (13327 posts) - - Show Bio

LM.

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#15 Posted by Dextersinister (6359 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlueHope said:

@WillPayton said:

So if even Eternity cant take down Lucifer, who in Marvel can?

TOAA, Beyounder, Protege, Scathan, LT(maybe), Pre Molecule Man(maybe), Thanos with heart of universe

Only the TOAA in the list is guaranteed. The rest can't or probably can't.

#16 Posted by ShootingNova (18422 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

As far as I know Eternity is at least multiversal.

Which really means nothing. Lucifer has absorbed a multiversal hit without even flinching.

#17 Posted by GhostRider2 (3412 posts) - - Show Bio

Morningstar.

#18 Posted by thanosii (1309 posts) - - Show Bio

lucifers biggest feat was warping a universe, he is celestial level or below. he is in no way omniversal the is just one of him. LM in his most powerful was beaten by titans before he outsmarted them. he has died and needed a sacrifice to come back. micheal his eqaul was killed by a sword twice (no indication that the sword was magical) he has admitted death can kill him on panel. So anyone above celestial level can stomp him.

#19 Posted by Dredeuced (5730 posts) - - Show Bio

@thanosii said:

lucifers biggest feat was warping a universe, he is celestial level or below. he is in no way omniversal the is just one of him. LM in his most powerful was beaten by titans before he outsmarted them. he has died and needed a sacrifice to come back. micheal his eqaul was killed by a sword twice (no indication that the sword was magical) he has admitted death can kill him on panel. So anyone above celestial level can stomp him.

His biggest feat is tanking a multiversal blast without being phased and killing Michael. He's not CELESTIAL level or below, wtf? Celestials aren't even abstract level and Lucifer is a multiversal, arguably omniversal (he's half of a pair that created the omniverse) reality warper.

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#20 Posted by Deadgod (1500 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

@thanosii said:

lucifers biggest feat was warping a universe, he is celestial level or below. he is in no way omniversal the is just one of him. LM in his most powerful was beaten by titans before he outsmarted them. he has died and needed a sacrifice to come back. micheal his eqaul was killed by a sword twice (no indication that the sword was magical) he has admitted death can kill him on panel. So anyone above celestial level can stomp him.

His biggest feat is tanking a multiversal blast without being phased and killing Michael. He's not CELESTIAL level or below, wtf? Celestials aren't even abstract level and Lucifer is a multiversal, arguably omniversal (he's half of a pair that created the omniverse) reality warper.

multiversal blast? i don't think so . Raphael stated on panel that if energy inside Michael is released then it would destroy the world , nobody said anything about multiverse or another creation getting destroyed & when Lucifer stabbed Michael to release demiurge energy in the void nothing happened to Yahveh's creation or the other failed creations so how come that blast was multiversal? & Lucifer himself have been hurt by lesser beings then a big bang blast & Lucifer created a omniverse? what???

#21 Posted by Dredeuced (5730 posts) - - Show Bio

I do not have the scans on hand, I've seen them posted and explained in several other Lucifer threads, so forgive me if I come off as ignorant, but I'd rather have someone with the available info and feats make the argument.

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#22 Posted by thanosii (1309 posts) - - Show Bio

Dred u cant be serious LM never created a multiverse or shape it. Dc multiverse was created by 1 krona trying to witness the big bang and then lex luther

#23 Posted by Dredeuced (5730 posts) - - Show Bio

@thanosii said:

Dred u cant be serious LM never created a multiverse or shape it. Dc multiverse was created by 1 krona trying to witness the big bang and then lex luther

http://www.comicvine.com/lucifer-morningstar/29-24232/

Lucifer is one of the most powerful beings in the DCverse, next to his brother and his father. He possesses the ability to manipulate any external force for any effect he desires. He cannot, however, create something out of nothing. For this he needs the Demiurgic force of his brother Michael, and later his niece Elaine. Together, Michael and Lucifer are capable of creating entire multiverses. His most common use of power is calling forth the fire of the various suns he used to birth and burning his opponents to ashes.

His durability surpasses all others; he was able to tank a point-blank release of the Dunamis Demiurgos which could destroy all of creation without even flinching.

________________________________________________

Like I said, I don't have the scans on hand to prove it and we'll have to wait for someone who does.

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#24 Posted by Deadgod (1500 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced: oh its ok no worries :) from what i have seen in other comics when a blast of multiversal scale happens it engulfs & destroys all the universes which are in its radius if that blast was really multiversal on scale on panel then regardless weather big bang happened in the void or in Yahveh's universe , it would have still destroyed Yahveh's universe or other practice failed universes but nothing happened to them & i don't know if void have any blast absorbing properties otherwise the demiurge matter wouldn't have expanded in a universe then & also Raphael stated on panel a universe will be destroyed so i don't think that blast was really multiversal just my opinion =)

#25 Edited by Dredeuced (5730 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't have a scan, but the pointblank blast was outside of creation in the void. He specifically took Michael there so it wouldn't wipe out all of The Presence's creation.

I understand the confusion because Vertigo's universe comes off as a little less expansive than DC's normal hierarchy, but Luci and Michael are specifically stated as 2a and 2b to The Presence/God's 1a and GEB's 1b in their reality before the Vertigo/DC merge indicated it was all the same omniverse. It's a little convoluted, but that's Veritgo for you.

I agree that there has to be a little assumption to it, but it's pretty cleanly and outright stated how powerful Lucifer is in relation to The Presence several times in the series.

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#26 Posted by Killemall (18639 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

Eternity is not just multiversal level, he is the multiverse

That goes back and forth :p

Marvel cosmology is handle by hacks. Half the time Eternity is a multiverse who doesnt give a crap about the destruction of 616 (Infinity Crusade) saga, and other times he is just a universe. Bio puts him as a universe, he himself said he was just a universe when he met Infinites during Avengers Infinity, when asked Tom Brevroot said he is univers, there are few instances where he has been shown as a universe, so i think him being only a sentience of the universe seems more common.

Although Defenders volume 3, 03 potrays Eternity as a multiverse, so does Mad God Saga when Captain Marvel blew him up.

#27 Edited by Dredeuced (5730 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deadgod said:

@Dredeuced: oh its ok no worries :) from what i have seen in other comics when a blast of multiversal scale happens it engulfs & destroys all the universes which are in its radius if that blast was really multiversal on scale on panel then regardless weather big bang happened in the void or in Yahveh's universe , it would have still destroyed Yahveh's universe or other practice failed universes but nothing happened to them & i don't know if void have any blast absorbing properties otherwise the demiurge matter wouldn't have expanded in a universe then & also Raphael stated on panel a universe will be destroyed so i don't think that blast was really multiversal just my opinion =)

Found it:

The universe he created out of Michael's explosion was multiversal in scale, so yeah, he did tank a multiversal blast from Michael that would've destroyed all of creation (DC multiverse), was unphased by it, and created his own multiverse out of it.

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#28 Posted by thanosii (1309 posts) - - Show Bio

thats statement is taken out of context its hyperbole because its also stated on panel it ws just a universe but to each his own. Other panel feats back up how not so powerful he is eg his battle with titans who by levels of power are below olympians but were stronger than lucifer, LM has been mindraped and possessed. He has never on panel destroyed a planet so until he does saying so isnt a feat, villians always say they unstoppable and yet always lose, hyperbole.

#29 Posted by Spartan101 (2430 posts) - - Show Bio

as powerful as eternity is..............nope old nick nicks this one.

#30 Posted by Deadgod (1500 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced

:

i have seen that scan , its from Nirvana one-shot comic where he made that statement but it isn't really backed up by whats happened in the main series , as you see the scan i posted it says when the big bang happened Lucifer waited for particles & raw matter to go in a craftable state & weaving it in a healthy universe & in main series which ran to 75 issues like 50 times from Elaine to Yahveh himself have called Lucifer creation a universe no one said anything about it being a multiverse . Also we never really got to see any other alternate earth or other universes of Lucifer's creation in the series & it also says Lucifer have never made a universe before so why would he decide that his first creation should be a multiverse? & he didn't even took time to properly shape some parts of his universe because he didn't wanted it to be too similar to Yahveh's universe (or also could be to conserve his energy) & he can't even expand the universe into more universes since the demiurge matter already cooled down & got used up so the proof of Lucifer's creation being a multiverse is just a statement in a standalone story & no other solid proof...........it could have also have been said that they decided to retcon Lucifer's universe into a multiverse but why would writer would do that when it would contradict what happened in main series & it would also be pointless in making his universe into a multiverse since it would have no effect on the story whatso ever so it would most likely be that Mike Carrey confused the terms universe & multiverse , we got these cases a lot in marvel too

Well that blast even if was multiversal then it still won't have done anything to DC universe ,its not canon to DCU ,i know we got cameos of Endless ,Source, Constantine but there's too many contradictions with DCU & it never fits with the DCU or The Sandman comics, Lucifer is more like self contained story in its own seperate universe ,its like there 2 versions of Lucifer & Michael ,one who appeared in Sandman,Spectre etc is different then the one who appeared in Lucifer series

Note : i haven't been reading New 52 much but i have seen in the scans that Lucifer is back in hell so i don't know the story that he's the same who was in Sandman or not but he can't be of Lucifer series because in main series he flew away into the infinite void & we were told he never come back to universe & at least not to hell lol

#31 Edited by Dredeuced (5730 posts) - - Show Bio

@thanosii said:

thats statement is taken out of context its hyperbole because its also stated on panel it ws just a universe but to each his own. Other panel feats back up how not so powerful he is eg his battle with titans who by levels of power are below olympians but were stronger than lucifer, LM has been mindraped and possessed. He has never on panel destroyed a planet so until he does saying so isnt a feat, villians always say they unstoppable and yet always lose, hyperbole.

It's not taken out of context at all.

His battle with titans were against Titans who had filled Yahweh's role after he left and were all powerful -- the only way to even harm them was to turn their own power against him. And this was a weakened Lucifer who did this. Almost every showing of him even being harmed was when he was depowered. He literally wields the power of all the matter in the DCU, as he is the will that shapes it. It's not hyperbole at all -- he is a multiversal reality warper who has created his own Multiverse and has tanked a multiverse level blast from the rebirth of Michael. His only limitation is similar to Mad Jim Jaspers -- he can not create something from nothing, he has to warp what is already there, but that's hardly an issue in the battle forums.

I don't know what more you two want besides an on panel confirmation that he created a multiverse once he got his wings back.

And it wasn't canon in DCU because, I believe at the time, Veritgo and DC were still hashing out their crossovers and hierarchy. In the Vertigo universe which eventually counted as the DC universe, he's a multiversal power second only to Presence level beings like Yahweh, Belloc and GEB.

Even if you think Lucifer is self contained and separate from DCU, he's still got on panel confirmation of Multiversal reality shaping feats. Plain and simple. It wasn't a confusion -- he had to correct his subordinate who said he made a universe because he made much more than that, and she then agreed, but stated that the only difference is scale (which is true, I suppose). I don't get why people are trying to bash on Lucifer. He's literally second only to Yahweh and those who sit and control Yahweh's powers in his continuity.

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#32 Posted by hyperbeing (382 posts) - - Show Bio

the other times the universe didnt fight back this universe might. not saying he will win though ccan soemone post luciferrs ffeats pls so i can see what he can do.

#33 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

he had to correct his subordinate who said he made a universe because he made much more than that, and she then agreed, but stated that the only difference is scale (which is true, I suppose). I don't get why people are trying to bash on Lucifer. He's literally second only to Yahweh and those who sit and control Yahweh's powers in his continuity.

Mazikeen thought that Lucifer had created a new realm(like Hell) , not that he had made a new universe . Nobody is bashing on Lucifer . If you read the series , instead of cherrypicking scans from here and there and copypasting editable bio info , or stating just outright lies(Lucifer helping create an omniverse is a blatant falsehood which originates from his KMC respect thread and which the likes of jeanroygrant perpetuated on this board) , you'll realize that the people arguing against you in this thread have every right to make the claims that they are making .

Free advice : read the comics instead of indulging in fanwankery and hype . Take it or leave it . Your choice .

#34 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

And as far as his fight with the Titans goes , Lucifer didn't directly defeat them by turning their own power against them or other claims that have been made . Lucifer had help from Mazikeen who affected the Titans by stabbing Beatrice Wechsler whom Gyges and Garamas were using as a conduit of sorts . Lucifer then was able to turn their most fundamental ability(time transcending) upon them and killed them before they became omnipotent . He had prep for that fight .

#35 Posted by Dredeuced (5730 posts) - - Show Bio

I never said he helped create an omniverse, I was pointing out his hierarchy IN the omniverse. The context of the scan is obvious if you read the comics -- after he released Michael's power in the void, he used it to shape "his universe," but it was later corrected by Lucifer himself that he made a multiverse equal (in his opinion) alongside Yahweh's. There's absolutely no reason to think he didn't do these things when the confirmation is on panel.

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#36 Posted by thanosii (1309 posts) - - Show Bio

on panel itsis written he made a universe, a multiverse is multiple universe that share a similar origin none was ever shown in any of his comical runs. Odin has on panel stated he is omnipotemt what do you think of that, if u believe odin is then he stomps lucifer if you think its hyperbole cos there isnt anything to support it then the same shud apply to LM

#37 Posted by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer curbstomps.

#38 Posted by Dredeuced (5730 posts) - - Show Bio

@thanosii said:

on panel itsis written he made a universe, a multiverse is multiple universe that share a similar origin none was ever shown in any of his comical runs. Odin has on panel stated he is omnipotemt what do you think of that, if u believe odin is then he stomps lucifer if you think its hyperbole cos there isnt anything to support it then the same shud apply to LM

Show me the panel where Odin said that, and even then it doesn't speak of the scale of characters we're talking about. Later on in the series, Belloc accidentally creates her own multiverse when she takes on Michael's powers and it stands equal to Yahweh's and Lucifer's. Yahweh's universe that he made through Michael and Lucifer is a Multiverse, Michael's demiurgic power is multiversal, Lucifer's reality control is multiversal. At worst it's a retcon so that Vertigo could stay in the same scale as DC.

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#39 Posted by thanosii (1309 posts) - - Show Bio

you obviuosly dont read DC because DC has had a multiverse 3times and the first time the multiverse created by krona trying to witness the big bang, the second time was when lex luther wanted to fix the multiverse and the third time was when the unviverse itself fractured due to energy output hence new 52. Where is the multiverse LM or PRESENCE made? You use multiverse littley but you dont even know how dc multiverse came to be

#40 Posted by Dredeuced (5730 posts) - - Show Bio

@thanosii said:

you obviuosly dont read DC because DC has had a multiverse 3times and the first time the multiverse created by krona trying to witness the big bang, the second time was when lex luther wanted to fix the multiverse and the third time was when the unviverse itself fractured due to energy output hence new 52. Where is the multiverse LM or PRESENCE made? You use multiverse littley but you dont even know how dc multiverse came to be

You don't realize that Vertigo and DC didn't always have converging continuities, right? The multiverse LM made is in the void, apart from Presence's. The same void you see the overmonitor see DC's "tiny" multiverse. The void is truly endless for space enough for endless multiverses.

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#41 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

I never said he helped create an omniverse, I was pointing out his hierarchy IN the omniverse.

I love it when people flip-flop like that :

@Dredeuced said:

arguably omniversal (he's half of a pair that created the omniverse) reality warper.
IN the omniverse. The context of the scan is obvious if you read the comics -- after he released Michael's power in the void, he used it to shape "his universe," but it was later corrected by Lucifer himself that he made a multiverse equal (in his opinion) alongside Yahweh's. There's absolutely no reason to think he didn't do these things when the confirmation is on panel.

So you're now twisting Lucifer's statement to imply that Yahweh's creation was also a multiverse ? You're reading too much into a single statement from a standalone story . Also , since we're taking Lucifer's own words as gospel , here's a late Christmas present :

First 2 scans are from Lucifer # 20 , the last one is from # 27 . And these are just the ones that I cropped from my respect thread . If I actually bothered to search through my collection , I'd end up finding more .

Basically speaking there is absolutely every reason to think he didn't perform such a feat , and that it was a minor mistake on the part of Mike Carey , when one actually reads the comics and stops relying on editable bios , a single scan , ridiculous exaggerations("Lucifer helped create the omniverse!!!") , and general out-of-context fanwankery .

#42 Posted by Dredeuced (5730 posts) - - Show Bio

Welcome to Retcons. Just like how Vertigo's Yahweh is now equivalent to DC's Presence. Yahweh created the "universe" through Michael and Lucifer originally, but since Yahweh is the Presence, that means it created the Multiverse through Michael and Lucifer. Unless you're seriously going to argue that the Vertigo DC merge doesn't count.

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#43 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer wins.

#44 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

Welcome to Retcons. Just like how Vertigo's Yahweh is now equivalent to DC's Presence. Yahweh created the "universe" through Michael and Lucifer originally, but since Yahweh is the Presence, that means it created the Multiverse through Michael and Lucifer. Unless you're seriously going to argue that the Vertigo DC merge doesn't count.

Do explain then that why none of the creations are described as being multiverses in the main series themselves . Once you'd realize the obvious truth , I'd like to welcome you to the concept of literary errors .

And Yahweh doesn't need to create a multiverse through either Lucifer or Michael . Anyone who's read the Naglfar voyage story arc would know that he created many other alternate universes(all of whom were failed creations btw) . An actual multiverse .

#45 Posted by Dredeuced (5730 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyper_God said:

@Dredeuced said:

Welcome to Retcons. Just like how Vertigo's Yahweh is now equivalent to DC's Presence. Yahweh created the "universe" through Michael and Lucifer originally, but since Yahweh is the Presence, that means it created the Multiverse through Michael and Lucifer. Unless you're seriously going to argue that the Vertigo DC merge doesn't count.

Do explain then that why none of the creations are described as being multiverses in the main series themselves . Once you'd realize the obvious truth , I'd like to welcome you to the concept of literary errors .

And Yahweh doesn't need to create a multiverse through either Lucifer or Michael . Anyone who's read the Naglfar voyage story arc would know that he created many other alternate universes(all of whom were failed creations btw) . An actual multiverse .

The same reason people call it the "DC universe" and the "Marvel universe," when they're clearly more?

Yahweh doesn't NEED to do anything, he just did it that way because God's a weird dude. Obviously all of the rest of DC's multiverse wasn't failed creations, but then you get into COIE territory. Like I said, retcons and company mergers make past assumptions and character dialogue hazy. You can continue to believe Lucifer is a single universe power despite being outright stated dozens of times in his series as the next most powerful being below Yahweh, but that's seems rather disingenuous to me and overlooking of extenuating circumstances of the publications.

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#46 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

@Hyper_God said:

@Dredeuced said:

Welcome to Retcons. Just like how Vertigo's Yahweh is now equivalent to DC's Presence. Yahweh created the "universe" through Michael and Lucifer originally, but since Yahweh is the Presence, that means it created the Multiverse through Michael and Lucifer. Unless you're seriously going to argue that the Vertigo DC merge doesn't count.

Do explain then that why none of the creations are described as being multiverses in the main series themselves . Once you'd realize the obvious truth , I'd like to welcome you to the concept of literary errors .

And Yahweh doesn't need to create a multiverse through either Lucifer or Michael . Anyone who's read the Naglfar voyage story arc would know that he created many other alternate universes(all of whom were failed creations btw) . An actual multiverse .

The same reason people call it the "DC universe" and the "Marvel universe," when they're clearly more?

Yahweh doesn't NEED to do anything, he just did it that way because God's a weird dude. Obviously all of the rest of DC's multiverse wasn't failed creations, but then you get into COIE territory. Like I said, retcons and company mergers make past assumptions and character dialogue hazy. You can continue to believe Lucifer is a single universe power despite being outright stated dozens of times in his series as the next most powerful being below Yahweh, but that's seems rather disingenuous to me and overlooking of extenuating circumstances of the publications.

Yes , and when they do , it's referred to exactly what it is called : a universe . Sorry but playing around with semantics , using the words "universe" , "multiverse" and "omniverse" in an interchangeable manner is a practice that's never appealed to me .

Lucifer was referred as the second most powerful being only once in the Lucifer series , and that too in an off-panel interview by Mike Carey . Those "other dozens" of such references come from Sandman , where Dream claimed that Lucifer was the second most powerful being in existence . Anyways , how does him being second to only to God contradict the idea that his creation was a universe in the main series ?

#47 Posted by MisterGuyMan (2046 posts) - - Show Bio

Regardless of whether LM made a universe or multiverse, the repeated references of him being the second most powerful being in creation puts him above Eternity.

#48 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@MisterGuyMan said:

Regardless of whether LM made a universe or multiverse, the repeated references of him being the second most powerful being in creation puts him above Eternity.

How ?

#49 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer wins btw .

#50 Posted by MisterGuyMan (2046 posts) - - Show Bio

Eternity as mentioned before is generally considered the embodiment of a single universe. He has several equals. LM would have one equal and one in Micheal and one that suprasses him.

The matchup is pretty bad for Eternity too. While he's the living embodiment of everything in the universe, he's fighting some one that has the power to manipulate anything that was ever created.