@rijehu:
"So...what does any of that have to do with me not understanding what Reality Warping is capable of?"
The fact that you claim he is more than a Reality Warper. When, in fact, that is exactly what he is.
There are different levels of warping dude. MJJ is a reality warper. Franklin Richards is a reality warper. Yet they NEED reality. They are mere warpers. All of the Endless are reality warpers, yet they are so much more than that. I don't know many reality warpers who existed before creation and willed reality itself in existence. The Universe in which reality operates, or doesn't in some cases, is the one Lucifer crafted. Most Reality warpers I know need reality as a base of their power whereas Lucifer does not. A mere reality warper is one who, without their power to warp, are useless. Lucifer is far from useless and far from powerless even in the absence of reality.
"You just basically said Lucifer uses his Will to grant himself any ability or feat he wishes am I right?"
When, exactly, did I say that he does that?
You --> "Yes, Lucifer is, put very shortly, a Reality Warper with unlimited raw power. Everything he does(with the exception of his purely physical capabilities from his nature as an Angel), comes from his Infinite Manipulation." I apologize if I misunderstood but it sounds to me like you are saying all of his powers, are only possible because of his Infinite Will.
"If he is only limited by his Will, and his will is Infinite, how is this helping LT again? Lol"
His Will is not his limitation. In fact, that is the very point in which he has no limits. He is limited by a bunch of other things, but not by his Will.
It was a rhetorical question in which I was trying to prove a point. One can not be limited by an ability that grants the user unlimited possibilities. I already stated, Lucifer is limited because his power nor influence does not go beyond what The Presence allows, nor certain rules or regulations that have already been placed upon existence by the presence, which makes no difference in this battle since this is a neutral universe where The Presence would not directly involved.
"When was is stated that Lucifer was not Nigh-Omnipotent?"
It doesn't have to be stated out-right, when it's obvious. But I suppose it could be a matter of definition.
It is a matter of definition as I know and have given examples of many different types of Omnipotence and NIgh Omnipotence on this website. Since He and Michael are indeed God's most powerful creations, and Dream of the Endless who is also Nigh Omnipotent according to DCU, stated that Lucifer was far more powerful than him, I think we can rest with knowing that he, regardless of what MU defines as such, is at some level of Nigh Omnipotence.
"Has LT destroyed enemies with his pure intellect? Has he been forced to defeat enemies when he was human? Lucifer has fooled greater demons and even Gods to destroy themselves even when he was mortal and powerless. He warped Dream of the Endless outside of his own realm with a gesture where Dream was all powerful."
What does any of that, have to do with versatility?It shows that Lucifer has a brilliant mind, and is extremely resourceful(and powerful), but we already agree on that.
Which means that no matter how versatile you believe LT to be, Lucifer being extremely resourceful and powerful would still pose a formidable threat. At least I still think he would.
"No offense, but the topic of who is more versatile is opinion based , I don't think we should used that as evidence of victory."
The topic of who is more versatile, is not opinion based. It's simply a matter of comparing their capabilities. Who has more variety to bring to the table. That is the LT. And versatility should most definitely be used, it can be a huge factor in a fight.
How can you compare abilities when they both can do the same thing as far as powers go? Other than create from nothingness, Lucifer can do anything LT can because he can simply Will it. Lucifer can will anything, for any purpose whatsoever, as much as he wants to, without limits. How is that not versatility?
"Is that not a Contradiction? How can you claim that Lucifer is not Nigh omnipotent but say that LT is, yet you then say Lucifer has more raw power?"
No, that is not a contradiction. I can say that Lucifer is not nigh-omnipotent, but LT is, because that is simply the truth. Omnipotence = All-Powerful. Infinite Power. The ability to do literally anything. Lucifer's ability to Manipulate, is infinite. But his lack of Creation, is a definite limitation.The Living Tribunal is one step down from The-One-Above-All. The only known limit on what he can do, is go against the will of TOAA. But he does have a limit. His raw power is not Infinite.I.e. Lucifer's Manipulation, has more raw power. But he does not have full Omnipotence. But you can't call it Nigh-omnipotence either, because he does have Infinite raw power.
You seem to misunderstand here. Lucifer can not create something OUT OF NOTHINGNESS. That is completely different from not being able to create at all. That in fact, is the ONLY thing he definitely can't do, which means everything else is possible for him through Will. That is why he is considered Nigh-Omnipoent because of having nearly all power, with one limitation. And once again, because they are in a universe and LT's very existence gives something to manipulate, his one limitation isn't even a factor here. And even if Lucifer was outside of creation, the moment LT used any type of power or even a thought, Lucifer would will it for his own use.
And LT is not at all a simply step below TOAA. Any True Omnipotent being is always infinitely more powerful than their creations combined. Thats is why even Lucifer + Michael are no where near equal to TP.
"If Lucifer wills himself to do anything possible, how does LT have a wider range of power and capabilities?"
Can you show me an example of Lucifer ever doing that? Or anything to prove that he can do that? Lucifer is limited to manipulation. LT isn't. That is where LT has a wider range of power. Also, LT is nigh-omniscient and nigh-omnipresent. That is another point where LT has a wider range in capabilities.
It is all implied and understood power. Once again even you said "Lucifer is put very shortly, a reality warper with unlimited raw power". If you have to ask me how someone with Infinite and Absolute Reality warping abilities would be able to do anything possible, I am not sure if you know what Reality Warping is capable of. I have not seen LT use every ability in Marvel, but because he is NIgh-Omnipotent, is it not understood that he can do so? If not, would you mind posting feats of him performing every single ability Marvel has to offer? The truth is, as much as we wish, there is not enough feats to 100% prove than any being is Nigh Omnipotent or Omnipotent. We may see one great feat, but most is implied.
"If Lucifer has more raw power than LT, along with his Infinite control and genius intellect, then how do you claim LT "simply" overwhelms him."
1. His "genius intellect" is not a factor, whatsoever.2. Simple. By attacking, non-stop, from everywhere at the same time.
It is not a factor to YOU. Quit downplaying Lucifer in order to give LT the edge. I don't disregard LT's power in the debate so I don't see how you wanting to nullify Lucifer's abilities helps. Attacking a guy from everywhere at the same time would do absolutely nothing if the guy you are attacking has infinite control over any power you throw at him, and has more raw power than you can produce. All you are saying to me is LT's nonstop power will be manipulated by Lucifer's Infinite Will. Thats is why I said stalemate.
"And If lucifer misses? WHAT? Lucifer Wills everything around LT, and if he has more raw power, as you claim, it would be easier for him to overwhelm LT than the opposite."
Lucifer is, in his nature as an Angel, a single being. He is only present in one point in time and space. I.e. his "awareness", for the lack of a better word, is limited by his senses. LT is nigh-omnipresent. He does not have that limitation. Lucifer can't "Will everything around LT", because LT does not exist in just one place. And the fact that he is nigh-omniscient, along with nigh-omnipresent(and half a dozen other nigh-omni's), means that he won't get overwhelmed by anything other than actual Superiority.
You assume that Lucifer is just going to start blasting off Heavenly fire at LT, Lucifer is not as impulsive as you are seemingly making him. And even if LT is Nigh-Omniscient, that does not help him win. Lucifer has manipulated The Presence, even if for a little while. LT's Nigh-Omniscience does not mean his is unbeatable or exempt from harm. We have already agreed that Lucifer has more manipulation and raw power than LT. His will warp that Universe to his benefit him rather LT is present there or not.
"And you keep saying LT is far more versatile, yet Lucifer has Infinite control. With Control comes versatility man. More raw power, infinite control over that power, and genius intellect? This still does not help LT's case. Doesn't mean he loses, but doesn't help him either."
You're confusing things. Lucifer's "infinite control" IS his power. it is not "infinite power, controlled by infinite control". LT is more versatile, simply by the fact that he brings far more variety to the table. Through his nigh-omnipotence, nigh-omnipresence, nigh-omniscience, nigh-omnietc.Lucifer has Infinite Manipulation. But that is the only thing of consequence that he brings to the table.
That then, would be all he needs IMO. He could manipulate and power and any knowledge LT uses against him. Versatility is basically being able to adapt and or change to many different situations and environments. Both can do that. So i don't see that is a factor.
"If you think Lucifer, who embodies God's Infinite Will, has more raw power and control than LT, then what do you think adding Michael, who embodies God's very power and has more raw power than even Lucifer, would do to the brother's chances of winning?"
I'm pretty sure I already answered that one. Adding Michael to the mix, would tip the scales in their favor, but it would not guarantee their victory.
Meh, I agree.
"LT is only Omnipresent because his awareness and his authority is everywhere, he himself is not duplicated in any way."
You've got that backwards. LT is nigh-omnipresent because he is everywhere. His physical presence, that he uses to communicate with the beings of the various universes, is an M-body, Essentially just a representation. And avatar that he uses to communicate.
Once again, that would maybe tip the scales if Lucifer was in the Marvel Omniverse lol, but this is a neutral universe. I doubt if LT being every there would hardly bother Lucifer let alone harm him. In fact, believe it or not, if this was in MU, I would have to go with LT. But because of the neutral universe, and Lucifer's Will and warping power, I don't think LT could defeat him. I do however, know somewhat of LT's power and his authority so I don't believe Lucifer would beat him either. Either way, I respect your point of view.
Log in to comment