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#1 Edited by alternative_backup (624 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer Morningstar:

vs.

The Living Tribunal:

Rules:

- Lucifer Morningstar has its wings.

- The location is in a neutral universe.

The Living Tribunal can destroy the archangel?

The archangel could use to judge of Marvel for their own purposes?

Who wins between the second most powerful beings in their respective universes?

#2 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2976 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Posted by m0ntyb0y (1245 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucy wins

#4 Posted by hsm1 (55 posts) - - Show Bio

LT

#5 Posted by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

The Living Tribunal murderstomps.

#6 Edited by Scoop316 (162 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate, but I'd go with Lucifer personally.

And LOL if you think either would stomp the other.

#7 Edited by OverLordArhas (7670 posts) - - Show Bio

LT, his power directly came from TOAA

#8 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

LT for me. Both may be second to their respective cosmos but Lucy has an equal.

#9 Posted by russellmania77 (14832 posts) - - Show Bio

LT for me. Both may be second to their respective cosmos but Lucy has an equal.

how does that make him weaker than lt tho? isnt classic beyonder equal to LT?

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#10 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

@russellmania77: I'm just thinking if he can be neutralized by another of his kind, the puts the nigh omnipotence to a half... Even though you can't really equate infinity to a fraction... But that's just me. And PR Beyonder was above LT. In fact, he was the TOAA even before the concept of TOAA (not Celestial) was introduced by Marvel. But that was already retconned out so it doesn't mean anything anymore no matter how strong he was supposed to be.

#11 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

LT, his power directly came from TOAA

And Lucy's powers came directly from the Presence.

#12 Edited by OverLordArhas (7670 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssejllenrad said:

@overlordarhas said:

LT, his power directly came from TOAA

And Lucy's powers came directly from the Presence.

At the very lease LT is a GOOD BOY, compared to LUCY PLUS he does not share it with anybody.

#13 Edited by JediXMan (30188 posts) - - Show Bio

LT, probably.

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#14 Posted by Chibi_cute (4509 posts) - - Show Bio

If the spectre can defeat LT then my bet is on Lucifer.

#15 Posted by hsm1 (55 posts) - - Show Bio

If the spectre can defeat LT then my bet is on Lucifer.

Isn't there a scan of LT holding a multiverse in each hand? (sorry, couldn't find it)

LT<<<<<<<<<<<<The Spectre.

#16 Edited by OverLordArhas (7670 posts) - - Show Bio

@hsm1 said:

@chibi_cute said:

If the spectre can defeat LT then my bet is on Lucifer.

Isn't there a scan of LT holding a multiverse in each hand? (sorry, couldn't find it)

LT<<<<<<<<<<<<The Spectre.

eh? Tell me, how will Specter fair against a THANOS with I.G.?

#17 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

LT wins.

Also, just to clear a point, LT didn't hold two megaverses, the brothers were explicitly stated to be guardians of two megaverses not embodiments. But on the other hand, he fashioned them, so it's an impressive feat nonetheless.

and im not sure where are people getting that the spectre can beat living tribunal.

#18 Posted by alternative_backup (624 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave Nope. Lucifer Morningstar and the Living Tribunal are about the same power level. There would be a "curbstomp" as you wrote it. The judge of Marvel is a bit more powerful than the archangel, but the latter could deceive or manipulate it to their own benefit

#19 Posted by DarkRaiden (6883 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer. He's above omniversal supposedly, above creation and above The Source. He can probably beat LT while powerless and with his power he certainly won't lose.

#20 Posted by Enzeru (2954 posts) - - Show Bio

The judge of Marvel is a bit more powerful than the archangel, but the latter could deceive or manipulate it to their own benefit

"The judge" as in Arishem the Judge? O_o

#21 Edited by RetconCrisis (3637 posts) - - Show Bio

It depends. LT might win because Lucy prefers to use his intelligence to outsmart his opponents rather than his powers. If he was willing to use his powers, he might be able to beat LT with a combination of his powers and his intelligence. Besides, Lucy treated the Source like nothing and passed him by without even acknowledging him.

#22 Posted by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

Living Tribunal wins though I don't think Lucifer needs Michael's help to beat Living Tribunal.

The Living Tribunal murderstomps.

No ture though I do agree that Living Tribunal wins but it is most certainly not a stomp.

#23 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer. He's above omniversal supposedly, above creation

that's incorrect, and i showed you evidence which you conveniently chose to ignore. and it's really funny that you say that, considering that Lucifer's biggest problem is that he was unable to leave creation, until he received the letter of passage.

Now LT is the one who is truly omniversal (which is shown on panel).

#24 Posted by alternative_backup (624 posts) - - Show Bio
#25 Posted by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

@enzeru said:

@alternative_backup said:

The judge of Marvel is a bit more powerful than the archangel, but the latter could deceive or manipulate it to their own benefit

"The judge" as in Arishem the Judge? O_o

No! @alternative_backup is not referring to Arishem! Arishem is the Judge of the Celestials not the whole Marvel omniverse!!!!!!!!

#26 Edited by sangeethankunchan (120 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer wins

#27 Posted by Hyperlight (5687 posts) - - Show Bio

i look at it this way... besides TOAA.. LT's power is absolute in Marvel. there is no one that is suppose to be able to fight him or contest with him because he is meant to govern the multiverse. TOAA gave LT absolute authority over everything outside of himself.

Lucy on the other hang is tied with michael and under yahweh. he has human characteristics and power is able to fluctuate in different circumstances.

im going with LT

#28 Posted by Outside_85 (8542 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer will just manipulate LT doing what he wants it to do. Lucifer is by Morpheus (the Sandman) described as the most powerful individual in Creation save for his Creator, but whats important to remember is that Lucifer isn't a character that really displays that sort of power, because it just bores him and he prefers to manipulate things instead.

But if you need an example; Lucifer cut Micheal open with a sword and survived an point blank explosion that was said would burn all of Creation clean (technically he survived the Big Bang going off two feet away from him).

Also, if I am not mistaken, didn't a recent Marvel book show off the Watcher looking at LT's broken carcass?

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#29 Edited by XxGin (1350 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer

#30 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

i look at it this way... besides TOAA.. LT's power is absolute in Marvel. there is no one that is suppose to be able to fight him or contest with him because he is meant to govern the multiverse.

not just 1 multiverse, but all multiverses.

Lucifer will just manipulate LT doing what he wants it to do. Lucifer is by Morpheus (the Sandman) described as the most powerful individual in Creation save for his Creator, but whats important to remember is that Lucifer isn't a character that really displays that sort of power, because it just bores him and he prefers to manipulate things instead.

But if you need an example; Lucifer cut Micheal open with a sword and survived an point blank explosion that was said would burn all of Creation clean (technically he survived the Big Bang going off two feet away from him).

lucifer has also been tricked by the basanos, and considering LT is nigh-omniscient, i don't think manipulating him is an option.

lucifer isn't the 2nd most powerful being, great evil beast is. And yeah, lucifer did survive the big bang, but he's also been hurt by angelic swords like the one wielded by gabriel.

Also, if I am not mistaken, didn't a recent Marvel book show off the Watcher looking at LT's broken carcass?

the context to this is yet to be revealed, so you can't use it as a low showing.

#31 Edited by Xaijinn (78 posts) - - Show Bio
#32 Posted by Spartan101 (2320 posts) - - Show Bio

LM takes it imo.

#33 Posted by dondave (35965 posts) - - Show Bio

LT

#34 Edited by dondave (35965 posts) - - Show Bio

@xaijinn said:

@outside_85: didn't galactus survive a/the Big Bang?

He didn't survive it, he was essentially born from it

#35 Posted by alternative_backup (624 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackknight The Living Tribunal and Arishem the Judge are judges but in different hierarchies. :P

#36 Posted by alternative_backup (624 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer Lucifer is also almost omniscient and is much more intelligent and cunning which the court of Marvel. He could outwit or deceive the Living Tribunal smoothly, after all, he represents the infinite will of God.

Does the Great Evil Beast is not an aspect of The Presence? The Presence and aspects like: The Hand, The Source, etc., are more powerful than the archangel.

That has been damaged by angelic swords in the past, does not mean that the Living Tribunal could damage the archangel with ridiculous ease. Lucifer is a tough character.

#37 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer is also almost omniscient and is much more intelligent and cunning which the court of Marvel. He could outwit or deceive the Living Tribunal smoothly, after all, he represents the infinite will of God.

it's possible but it's a speculation at best.

Does the Great Evil Beast is not an aspect of The Presence? The Presence and aspects like: The Hand, The Source, etc., are more powerful than the archangel.

no the great evil beast is not an aspect, neither are any of the ones you listed, and lucifer has been hinted to be superior to the source in his own series. What we know for a fact is that the presence (or the voice) has seven aspects as revealed in swamp thing v2 #167

and we actually see him creating the aspects one of them being the spectre, spectre v3 #0:

presence's aspects are consisted of the spectre, the word, eclipso, the radiant (all of which are inferior to lucifer), and some 3 unkown others, but lucifer himself has been also called to be an aspect of the presence in lucifer #75. Though there are many things to contradict that, ill leave it at that

That has been damaged by angelic swords in the past, does not mean that the Living Tribunal could damage the archangel with ridiculous ease. Lucifer is a tough character.

personally, i see living tribunal simply on another level than lucifer, i read every single appearance lucifer ever made (except the new 52), and i still don't see what puts him on LT's level. Lucifer wasn't able to leave creation (a multiverse) without God's help, living tribunal on the other hand exists in all multiverses simultaneously, fantastic four annual #23

i think the scan speaks for itself, LT's role is simply wider, much wider. And i could go on and list other feats for the LT which actually proves the statement above, he does operate on a trans-multiversal scale as opposed to lucifer who can't even leave yahweh's reality no matter how hard he tries. And the best he could manage is a multiversal feat, and even that feat, he couldn't have done it alone. the only way he created his own multiverse is with God's help, who gave him the letter of passage giving him access to the void, and with michael's demiurgic energy he shaped his own multiverse.

#38 Posted by KingOfAsh (3571 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer

#39 Posted by alternative_backup (624 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer Lucifer and Michael created the DC multiverse. Michael gave Lucifer energy and molded and shaped him all creation. Apparently, he should have a thorough knowledge of the creation being a direct child of The Presence.

I did not know that the Great Evil Beast was not an aspect of The Presence. Wally the God?-Boy is an aspect of The Presence? I do not know much about it, sorry.

No doubt the Living Tribunal is more powerful than Lucifer, in fact, it is. But, yes the archangel fight intelligently, could take some wins.

Lucifer is not known for his raw power, but, by his cunning, intelligence and manipulative skills. The Living Tribunal can have all the means to counter Lucifer, but the latter could give him a run for his money.

It could go either way, yes Lucifer uses his cunning, could win, however less, if not used, could lose.

#40 Posted by amalgamuniverse (334 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it would be a stalemate, honestly. I don't really have an explanation, but it seems that their powers would be on equal levels.

#41 Posted by alternative_backup (624 posts) - - Show Bio

@amalgamuniverse Both are the second most powerful characters in their respective publisher, with the difference that the Living Tribunal is a bit more powerful in terms of power and Lucifer is far more cunning and manipulative.

#42 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

This is too tough to call... stalemate.

#43 Posted by Auction_Sniper (1254 posts) - - Show Bio

Possibly, LT, but Lucy isn't a joke. Could he manipulate LT, is the question.

#44 Posted by alternative_backup (624 posts) - - Show Bio
#45 Posted by SirMethos (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

While it would be an interesting battle, I have to come down on the side of The Living Tribunal.

Lucifer's power of Infinite Manipulation, is essentially Reality Warping with Unlimited raw power, but that is all he has.

On the other hand, while the LT's Manipulation is not quite as powerful as Lucifer's, he also has the ability to create from nothing, not to mention nigh-omnipresence, nigh-omniscience, and a host of other nigh-omni's to his name.

LT's far wider variety of powers, abilities, knowledge, etc. puts him comfortably in first place.

Lucifer would need Michael's help to defeat the LT, though in that case, the roles would switch, and the two brothers would have the win comfortably in place.

#46 Edited by Rijehu (513 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirmethos:

While it would be an interesting battle, I have to come down on the side of The Living Tribunal.

Lucifer's power of Infinite Manipulation, is essentially Reality Warping with Unlimited raw power, but that is all he has.

LOL Lucifer is no mere reality warper. He embodies/IS the Presence's Infinite Will, the ability to infinitely manipulate all of Creation, which dwarfs Reality. If it exists, Lucifer controls it. Lucifer willed creation itself into existence. Both he and Michael are beyond creation, reality, and DCU. Reality exists within creation. As an Archangel, his powers are virtually limitless. He can do anything he wishes and wills. Manipulation is his MAIN power, but not by far his only.

On the other hand, while the LT's Manipulation is not quite as powerful as Lucifer's, he also has the ability to create from nothing, not to mention nigh-omnipresence, nigh-omniscience, and a host of other nigh-omni's to his name.

That may be true, but anything he would create, Lucifer could easily manipulate, even another creation. And btw, Lucifer is also nigh Omnipotent, and Omniscient. I don't think he as to be everywhere since he made everywhere lol.

LT's far wider variety of powers, abilities, knowledge, etc. puts him comfortably in first place.

I don't see LT doing anything that Lucifer can't either do, or manipulate. He has the will of The Presence which would technically be above LT. I grant that LT may have more raw power, but Lucifer has more control. I believe that Infinite Control >> Infinite Power anyday lol. That's just my opinion though.

Lucifer would need Michael's help to defeat the LT, though in that case, the roles would switch, and the two brothers would have the win comfortably in place.

I think either of the brothers could stalemate him, but adding Michael would probably guarantee the win.

Michael + Lucifer = Infinite power to create and destroy.

#47 Posted by SirMethos (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@rijehu:

"LOL Lucifer is no mere reality warper. He embodies/IS the Presence's Infinite Will, the ability to infinitely manipulate all of Creation, which dwarfs Reality. If it exists, Lucifer controls it. Lucifer willed creation itself into existence. Both he and Michael are beyond creation, reality, and DCU. Reality exists within creation. As an Archangel, his powers are virtually limitless. He can do anything he wishes and wills. Manipulation is his MAIN power, but not by far his only."

I don't think you quite understand what Reality Warping is capable of.

Yes, Lucifer is, put very shortly, a Reality Warper with unlimited raw power. Everything he does(with the exception of his purely physical capabilities from his nature as an Angel), comes from his Infinite Manipulation.

"That may be true, but anything he would create, Lucifer could easily manipulate, even another creation. And btw, Lucifer is also nigh Omnipotent, and Omniscient. I don't think he as to be everywhere since he made everywhere lol."

No, Lucifer is neither Nigh-Omnipotent, nor Nigh-Omniscient. Try actually reading some of his comics, and you would already know this.

And it's true that Lucifer could manipulate anything that LT creates, I already pointed that out. But LT's versatility, along with his Nigh-omnipotence/omniscience/omnipresence, etc. tips the battle comfortably in LT's favor.

"I don't see LT doing anything that Lucifer can't either do, or manipulate. He has the will of The Presence which would technically be above LT. I grant that LT may have more raw power, but Lucifer has more control. I believe that Infinite Control >> Infinite Power anyday lol. That's just my opinion though."

Taken once instance at a time, one thing at a time, you're right. Lucifer could nullify anything that LT could do. But with Nigh-omniscience and Nigh-omnipresence, LT could simply overwhelm Lucifer. Lucifer only has to miss one attack, be distracted for a split second, and he's down. And LT is more than capable of that.

And no, LT does not have more raw power, that's my entire point. Lucifer has more raw power, LT is simply far more versatile, has a far wider range of powers and capabilities, which puts things in his favor.

"I think either of the brothers could stalemate him, but adding Michael would probably guarantee the win."

Neither of the brothers could stalemate him alone, for the same reasons. And adding Michael does not guarantee their winning, it just tips the battle in their favor.

"Michael + Lucifer = Infinite power to create and destroy."

This is true, but they still lack the various "nigh-omni.."'s that the LT has. Neither of them are Nigh-omniscient, or nigh-omnipresent, and those two are very large factors.

#48 Posted by eternityx (2645 posts) - - Show Bio

LT wins. LT vs Lucifer and Michael would be a closer fight IMO.

#49 Posted by Strongarm (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

Tribunal

#50 Edited by Rijehu (513 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirmethos said:

@rijehu:

"LOL Lucifer is no mere reality warper. He embodies/IS the Presence's Infinite Will, the ability to infinitely manipulate all of Creation, which dwarfs Reality. If it exists, Lucifer controls it. Lucifer willed creation itself into existence. Both he and Michael are beyond creation, reality, and DCU. Reality exists within creation. As an Archangel, his powers are virtually limitless. He can do anything he wishes and wills. Manipulation is his MAIN power, but not by far his only."

I don't think you quite understand what Reality Warping is capable of.

Yes, Lucifer is, put very shortly, a Reality Warper with unlimited raw power. Everything he does(with the exception of his purely physical capabilities from his nature as an Angel), comes from his Infinite Manipulation.

So...what does any of that have to do with me not understanding what Reality Warping is capable of? You just basically said Lucifer uses his Will to grant himself any ability or feat he wishes am I right? If he is only limited by his Will, and his will is Infinite, how is this helping LT again? Lol

"That may be true, but anything he would create, Lucifer could easily manipulate, even another creation. And btw, Lucifer is also nigh Omnipotent, and Omniscient. I don't think he as to be everywhere since he made everywhere lol."

No, Lucifer is neither Nigh-Omnipotent, nor Nigh-Omniscient. Try actually reading some of his comics, and you would already know this.

And it's true that Lucifer could manipulate anything that LT creates, I already pointed that out. But LT's versatility, along with his Nigh-omnipotence/omniscience/omnipresence, etc. tips the battle comfortably in LT's favor.

When was is stated that Lucifer was not Nigh-Omnipotent? Just because he has a few challenges does not mean he is any less powerful. He has the Will to manipulate all, and can will himself to do virtually all, as you implied, and he, along with Michael is second to the Omnipotent being in their universe. I admit, I have only read the first two comics but Lucifer seems to know who anyone is as soon as he comes into contact with them. He also told a prostitute that she should get back to her father's funeral without even meeting him. And versatility? Has LT destroyed enemies with his pure intellect? Has he been forced to defeat enemies when he was human? Lucifer has fooled greater demons and even Gods to destroy themselves even when he was mortal and powerless. He warped Dream of the Endless outside of his own realm with a gesture where Dream was all powerful. No offense, but the topic of who is more versatile is opinion based , I don't think we should used that as evidence of victory.

"I don't see LT doing anything that Lucifer can't either do, or manipulate. He has the will of The Presence which would technically be above LT. I grant that LT may have more raw power, but Lucifer has more control. I believe that Infinite Control >> Infinite Power anyday lol. That's just my opinion though."

Taken once instance at a time, one thing at a time, you're right. Lucifer could nullify anything that LT could do. But with Nigh-omniscience and Nigh-omnipresence, LT could simply overwhelm Lucifer. Lucifer only has to miss one attack, be distracted for a split second, and he's down. And LT is more than capable of that.

And no, LT does not have more raw power, that's my entire point. Lucifer has more raw power, LT is simply far more versatile, has a far wider range of powers and capabilities, which puts things in his favor.

Is that not a Contradiction? How can you claim that Lucifer is not Nigh omnipotent but say that LT is, yet you then say Lucifer has more raw power? If Lucifer wills himself to do anything possible, how does LT have a wider range of power and capabilities? If Lucifer has more raw power than LT, along with his Infinite control and genius intellect, then how do you claim LT "simply" overwhelms him. And If lucifer misses? WHAT? Lucifer Wills everything around LT, and if he has more raw power, as you claim, it would be easier for him to overwhelm LT than the opposite. And you keep saying LT is far more versatile, yet Lucifer has Infinite control. With Control comes versatility man. More raw power, infinite control over that power, and genius intellect? This still does not help LT's case. Doesn't mean he loses, but doesn't help him either.

"I think either of the brothers could stalemate him, but adding Michael would probably guarantee the win."

Neither of the brothers could stalemate him alone, for the same reasons. And adding Michael does not guarantee their winning, it just tips the battle in their favor.

If you think Lucifer, who embodies God's Infinite Will, has more raw power and control than LT, then what do you think adding Michael, who embodies God's very power and has more raw power than even Lucifer, would do to the brother's chances of winning? Think about this now. And even if Michael does not guarantee a win, LT is not guaranteed to win over Lucifer from what I believe.

"Michael + Lucifer = Infinite power to create and destroy."

This is true, but they still lack the various "nigh-omni.."'s that the LT has. Neither of them are Nigh-omniscient, or nigh-omnipresent, and those two are very large factors.

As far as comparisons, Lucifer and Michael did the equivalent of what TOAA did in their respective companies, even if Marvel is larger. They both created the main Universe. Together MD and LM shaped all of DC and TOAAS shaped all of Marvel. Everything there is, they made. Now Obviously TOAA could blink the boys out of existence, but I was not comparing power levels and authority, only abilities. LT did not initially create Marvel as far as I know.

And once again, I feel that you saying the brothers are not nigh omnipotent is simply downplaying them. Michael has the power to infinitely create and destroy, where as Lucifer has the power to infinitely manipulate all there is, including creation itself. If Lucifer wills himself to do all things possible, and Michael has the power that does all things, and together they have the power of TP on a lesser scale, then how are they NOT Nigh Omnipotent?

LT is only Omnipresent because his awareness and his authority is everywhere, he himself is not duplicated in any way. Because Marvel is bigger than DC, I grant you that LT has a bigger scale of view, but Lucifer has effortlessly traveled beyond source, where he too can has viewed all of creation simultaneously. I don't see Lucifer stomping LT, but I certainly don't see LT stomping Lucifer. For that reason alone, I say stalemate lol.

You just got a new follower BTW lol