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#501 Posted by OverLordArhas (7667 posts) - - Show Bio

@abocado: IIRC, it was Freeza's tech that heals Vegeta's eye.

#502 Posted by Abocado (666 posts) - - Show Bio

@abocado: IIRC, it was Freeza's tech that heals Vegeta's eye.

My Tech your tech, but the fact is, body damage can be healed so having scars is just character design.

As for the Battle, based on the recent debates, I say Broly.

#503 Edited by THC (367 posts) - - Show Bio

@p0rtal said:

dbz fans are not mature enough to listen to reason

^arrogance incarnate

#504 Edited by P0rtal (872 posts) - - Show Bio

the internet still hasnt recovered from the goku vs superman death battle. Goku lost, fanboys went insane. They got a definintive answer and the same would happen if Broly were stated to be "this powerful". DBZ fans would go nuts.

#505 Edited by baron2011 (1151 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia said:

@baron2011 said:

@rozalia said:

@baron2011 said:

@rozalia said:

@baron2011 said:

@p0rtal said:

Oh my gosh! Im so sorry, he didn't at all punch him in the chest, im so wrong. He punched in first in the gut and then his skin and bones melted vertically until Gokus fist exited near his chest. * pops self in forehead. Now it all makes sense. I change my answer to Majin Vegeta :P He is certainly stronger than SSJ2 Goku ( whom he lost against ) + SSJ2 Gohan + SSJ1 Goten. He is much much more strong than all of them combined, all those who Broly laughed at after they gave him their best shot combined. Im going to side with Reikai on this one guys, sorry. Majin Vegetas power level is " a million bagillion zazillion" and SSj1 is 5000x base. *goes cross eyed

goku and gohan were ssj1 when they did the kamehameka not ssj2 what the hell are you talking about

majin vegeta destroys broly in 1 second

That's such an old tired argument by this point that bringing it up only makes you look silly. They forgot the lightning is all but just so perhaps it dawns on you the stupidity of them supposedly being SSJ1 let me ask you these question.

Gohan is fighting an opponent he can't even damage and according to you he doesn't bother powering up?

Broly about to destroy the planet with his Omega Blaster? No need to power up?

Gohan's girlfriend, brother and friend lie knocked out on floor near death? Angry? Nah Gohan apparently is pretty cool with Broly hurting his loved ones. Gohan has never shown how powerful he gets when angry or anything nope.

Its funny because even when Gohan gets angry all he manages to do is a kick that Broly barely felt and was only moved back due to being taken by surprise.

it is not an old argument

is 1 thing when they don't have lighting around their aura but is something else when they also have ssj hair style

during the kamehameha they were ssj not ssj2

Look this dance number has done many times now. Just answer the questions I presented you and let it dawn on you. Saves other users time explaining it to you.

look gohan and goku were not ssj2 when they did the kamehameha thing and you being a broly fan is not gonna change that

i can understand that gohan was ssj2 when he fought broly because of his hair style even though he didn't have electricity around his aura but when they did the kamehameha neither gohan nor goku had the ssj2 hair style but the ssj hair style

edid:as a matter of fact i don't even think gohan was ssj2 when he fought broly because in the manga when he fought dabura he also had1 bang but he wasn't ssj2

See how you keep flip flopping your answer? Thats because you're not sure and either saying it from memory or repeating someone else.

Just answer the questions I presented already. If you keep avoiding them then you have no right to continue to argue as it becomes clear you cannot answer them.

who cares about your questions?

if the creator of the movie wanted gohan to fight broly in base for,gohan would fight broly in base form doesn't matter what you want and what you think

it is still real to you dammit!

gohan and goku were ssj1 when they did the kamehameha thing.everything suggested that they were ssj1,their aura,their hair everything so based on those facts gohan and goku were ssj1 and not ssj2

@overlordarhas said:

@baron2011:

You mean this one?

This is just concept art

But in the movie, pretty hard to tell.

they were ssj1 not ssj2 look at their hair

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BzTkMhxYE

#506 Edited by terry2012 (4821 posts) - - Show Bio

@abocado: The wound I'm talking about is Bardock wound on his face that never healed. Not those wounds you posted. That is not a character Design. And Broly wound on his chest never healed. Goku wounds was not near his heart. So, he healed from it but it took a long time. If you want to use Piccolo then how about the wound Goku never healed from when Piccolo killed him and Radtiz with his Special beam cannon. He could not heal from it and neither did Radtiz which is why they both die. How about future Gohan arm? he did not heal from it. Future Gohan had a wound on his face and it did not healed. How about Freiza wounds? he did not heal from it. Broly wound on his chest pop when he is defeated in the second coming. That the only wound you see on Broly bursting in the end showing it never heal fully.

#507 Edited by THC (367 posts) - - Show Bio

@p0rtal said:

the internet still hasnt recovered from the goku vs superman death battle. Goku lost, fanboys went insane. They got a definintive answer and the same would happen if Broly were stated to be "this powerful". DBZ fans would go nuts.

>implying Death Battle isn't retarded

#508 Posted by SonDeathEater (428 posts) - - Show Bio

@p0rtal: Wasnt it already proven in this website that Goku would beat post crisis superman in Saiyan saga-names saga?Anyway there a lot of errors in it and a lot of evidence would suggest the statement above.Srry but post crisis superman is nowhere strong .He loses to most dragon ball characters at Saiyan saga and above.Plus death battle has no real credibility at all in this debate when they showed their wildly wild calculations about goku and superman even though they didn't do any for supes.Just putting in numbers.They also relied on lifting feats,traverse speed,15 suns exploding hyperbole while not using cell's solar system destroying kamehameha,and no actual calculations on how fast ki blasts travel.Im too lazy to state anymore and what I question is the fact that you and lvenger superman would win and have been proven wrong b4 but keep stating that superman would win.Impossibru,Mortein,mypasswordis1234 have showed more definitive evidence that proves Goku would win rather easily,but what do I know?>implying Death Battle was not completely wrong in every aspect for goku and superman.

#509 Posted by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

In response to baron2011.

Its true the writer could have base Goku instead if they wished to but you know why that wouldn't happen? Because even a guy with half his brain beaten to mush can see how stupid that would be. You've already been told about the lightning issue and you dismiss my questions showing you have no case.

Gohan knows SSJ2, Goku knows SSJ2. World about to end. Broly is winning with ease. LOLZ LETS STAY SSJ1 AND LET BROLY BLOW UP THE PLANET!

#510 Edited by baron2011 (1151 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia said:

In response to baron2011.

Its true the writer could have base Goku instead if they wished to but you know why that wouldn't happen? Because even a guy with half his brain beaten to mush can see how stupid that would be. You've already been told about the lightning issue and you dismiss my questions showing you have no case.

Gohan knows SSJ2, Goku knows SSJ2. World about to end. Broly is winning with ease. LOLZ LETS STAY SSJ1 AND LET BROLY BLOW UP THE PLANET!

still doesn't change the fact that goku and gohan were ssj1 when they did the kamehameha,their hair style suggest that

this broly movie took place before buu saga so how can you say goku could turn ssj2 when he had never done it before?

plus every transformation has a different hair style and during the kamehameha both goku and gohan had their ssj1 hair style so they were ssj1 and not ssj2 and that is a fact

#511 Edited by reikai (4117 posts) - - Show Bio

@p0rtal said:

the internet still hasnt recovered from the goku vs superman death battle. Goku lost, fanboys went insane. They got a definintive answer and the same would happen if Broly were stated to be "this powerful". DBZ fans would go nuts.

It's not the end result that got people upset, it's the method they went about it that's caused such a furious debate. Such as using All-Star Superman, which isn't the same as Post-Crisis Superman. As well as their own brand of calculations to base Goku's strength and speed off of, which doesn't reflect the increase of ability in the series.

There were also assumptions that the upcoming canon movie "Battle of Gods" wouldn't be a factor in the final debate, though as we saw it may have changed things considerably. There was also the argument about the "Future Goku" being a god after merging with Shenron, which can't be defined and them saying "Then we'd have to use Future Superman whose a god". The difference being Goku appeared a century after the end of GT, and Superman spent 15thousand years inside the Sun to become a God.

An issue that becomes moot with BoG as Goku becomes a SSJ God just 5yrs after the end of DBZ, a form which apparently blows SS4 out of the water and retcons all of GT at once. There was also ignoring the PL scaling system which had been prevalent throughout the series, even when the original numbers ended in the Freeza Saga, the company continued giving out PL indicators through V-Jump and other magazines encompassing some of the movies and up through the Majin Buu Saga.

Judging a persons ability via PL only didn't matter to those who could sense it as the villains often couldn't, like the Ginyu force, who judged only by what number they could visibly see on their Scouters, rather than what they could Feel for themselves. This system only became irrelevant after the end of the Freeza Saga when the enemies could Sense and Feel the energies of others, making putting a number on it almost pointless except to tell the Viewers who was stronger than who.

One of the mistakes the DB team made was early on with the Snake Way speed calc as it was under the idea that it was the Road that was 1mil km and not the Air Space. With evidence of Goku's speed and ability from Dragon Ball up to his fight with Raditz, there isn't any reason as to why Goku shouldn't taken six months to complete a run on Snake Way if it was 1mil km long.

As a Teen he could catch and evade multiple machine-gun fire and missiles and move so fast as to be invisible, even to people who can do the same thing. The Z-fighters were already in the Super-Sonic range that early, so there's no way he wouldn't be running at a fair clip of that when trying to get to King Kai's as quickly as he could to receive training.

Even if Goku only ran at Mach 1 (roughly 762mph) and given 12hrs a day to sleep, it would've taken him only little over 2mo to get to the end (68days). Instead it took him six months to do it, which is nearly three-times longer than projected (and the stuff in HFIL/Hell is non-canon along with Princess Snake. That's all filler). So either the Road is much longer than stated by the Ogre who led Goku to the start of Snake Way, or he's running much, much slower than he's capable of.

There's also the speed of his return trip and use of Nimbus. At the beginning of Dragon Ball, the Flying Nimbus could fly at Mach 1.5. This clearly changed as Goku got stronger, and it is my speculation that the Nimbus reflects the abilities of its rider. As such, Goku rode it from Kurrin's Tower to the battlefield with the Saiyans in 10min, a distance of nearly six-thousand miles. That would place the Nimbus' speed at well over Mach 50.

#512 Posted by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

I would like to clarify something about Ki usage and power level.

Tori explained that Ki is like gasoline. Saiyan forms are like completely different cars with different systems. When Goku goes Super Saiyan it's like the user is hopping out of their standard economic car into a sports car. Power levels are how these cars can transfer gasoline into horse power, therefore power level is the horse power HP.

When Trunks goes Ultimate Super Saiyan he's upgrading to a truck but keeping the same engine but only turbocharged in his sports car making him slower, but more durable That turbo might have let the engine run the truck but slowly.

When Gohan goes SS2, he's just a upgraded sports car , etc and etc.

When Goku performed that punch on Broly, he received Ki from everyone, so regardless of what form they were in, it did not matter. They overloaded Goku with Ki and he was able to somehow discharge all that Ki into one powerful attack to kill Broly. The amount of Ki you have is not affected by your power levels or forms. Ki is something that is consumed for them to perform their feats.

I just wanted to clarify this part so people understand the the defeat of Broly the first time.

#513 Posted by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

@p0rtal said:

the internet still hasnt recovered from the goku vs superman death battle. Goku lost, fanboys went insane. They got a definintive answer and the same would happen if Broly were stated to be "this powerful". DBZ fans would go nuts.

This is irrelevant to this thread. If your goal is to try and cause a Superman vs Goku in this thread it will cause it to get closed.

#514 Edited by P0rtal (872 posts) - - Show Bio

really valiant effort trying to revert this around on me. Someone said that DB fanboys have the maturity to handle a definitive answer, I offered proof otherwise. Please read the last page at least before you post.

#515 Edited by TheFanpireSlayer (87 posts) - - Show Bio

Can someone give me a list of Feats for both fighters in their forms?
All the feats for Majin Vegeta (SSJ2 only)(Buu Saga only)
and all the feats for Broly (LSSJ only)

#516 Posted by reikai (4117 posts) - - Show Bio

@p0rtal: Fans can accept it, if the information is truly accurate. FanBoys won't accept anything. If they had said Superman lost, the exact same thing would've still happened, only it'd be the Superman Fanboys that raged and the DBZ Fanboys would be smothering it obnoxiously in the faces, just like the Superman Fanboys did when Supes won.

Both sides are at fault. It's never one or the other. But anyway, as I had said, the information isn't accurate. And prior to BoG, I had already believed that Superman would win, despite my intense dislike of the character and the horrible writers behind him.


After BoG though, if Toriyama continues with this path, the Z-crew will be clearing the gap into Universe-level force to match the Twelve Gods of Destruction (whom I feel are going to be based off the Chinese Zodiac, appearance wise). And if/when that happens, the whole Superman vs Goku Death Battle debate will get thrown in the trash and Goku will backhand him like a pimp.

#517 Posted by KingMajestros (15 posts) - - Show Bio

Majin Vegeta wins.

#518 Posted by TheFanpireSlayer (87 posts) - - Show Bio

@baron2011: Except in that movie they did reuse the Broly transformation sequence from the first movie. So style and effects are flubbed all over.

#519 Posted by xlab3000 (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: that makes sense. it wasn't a plot device like much broly fans think. was that why Trunks ki blast able to block Broly's eraser cannons too

@terry2012: it depends how long they had the wound Broly had it ever since he was a baby the wound should be long healed by now.
@rozalia: they were ssj when they shot the kamehameha just look at the hair.

@reikai: they should've waited for BoG. I do agree if Toriyama continued the series Goku will backhand him like a pimp.

#520 Edited by P0rtal (872 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry, I don't buy it. DB fans go balls to the wall insane when their favorites lose. No doubt about it that BoGs villain and counterpart were on Odins level or beyond. He was a confirmed Galaxy buster, the current superman could not dream of handling such energy. The point being DB fans are notorious for being goofy.

#521 Posted by THC (367 posts) - - Show Bio

@p0rtal said:

really valiant effort trying to revert this around on me. Someone said that DB fanboys have the maturity to handle a definitive answer, I offered proof otherwise. Please read the last page at least before you post.

Clearly you misinterpreted the definition of definite. The word you were looking for was descriptive. In Death Battle's case, describing their opinion, which is factually false, and therefore not definite.

#522 Edited by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

@p0rtal said:

really valiant effort trying to revert this around on me. Someone said that DB fanboys have the maturity to handle a definitive answer, I offered proof otherwise. Please read the last page at least before you post.

Why don't you address me properly instead of hoping I read your post. Just drop it. Just because someone is acting immature doesn't mean you have to also. There's no rule here that says if someone drops down to a certain level of debating you have to as well. You as a Superman supporter clearly respond in a immature matter and add fuel to the fire and that proves there's finger pointing at one side. There is a level of immaturity on both sides.

But I'm not a moderator so do as you please, I'm asking nicely to keep this thread on topic because it's a interesting one.

@xlab3000 said:

@slimj87d: that makes sense. it wasn't a plot device like much broly fans think. was that why Trunks ki blast able to block Broly's eraser cannons too

@terry2012

: it depends how long they had the wound Broly had it ever since he was a baby the wound should be long healed by now.

@rozalia

: they were ssj when they shot the kamehameha just look at the hair.

@reikai: they should've waited for BoG. I do agree if Toriyama continued the series Goku will backhand him like a pimp.

That's exactly how it looks in the video. There's really no way to interpret it otherwise.

#523 Edited by P0rtal (872 posts) - - Show Bio

Gosh, there was nothing nasty or insulting about my post towards you. You are delusional.

#524 Posted by SlimJ87D (9389 posts) - - Show Bio

@p0rtal said:

Gosh, there was nothing nasty or insulting about my post towards you. You are delusional.

I'm not taking it that way. I'm pointing out the direction it's going is not really relevant to this thread. What does Superman have to do with Broly vs Vegeta? Am I right?

#525 Edited by TheFanpireSlayer (87 posts) - - Show Bio

So Trunk's barrier is able to hold back planet busters with ease. So his attack could also hold back Gohan's Kamehameha at SSJ2 with ease. Or Goku at SSJ3 with no effort at all. Since clearly his quick blast energy ball had enough power to resist multiple planet busters.

Then DBZ is entirely pointless if any weakling can throw up a barrier and tank world busting attacks why is everyone not using this., Why is Vegeta or Goku not throwing up barriers to block Buu's attacks? Why didn't they do that against one another?

#526 Posted by xlab3000 (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

@thefanpireslayer: Trunks is a planet buster also. Vegeta used it against Hirudegarn

#527 Posted by TheFanpireSlayer (87 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlab3000: Indeed his powerlevel says he should be. However, we have seen Broly casually destroy planets with Eraser cannons. But my post was about why Vegeta and Goku didn't no sell buu using barriers. Why did they let him blow up the earth.

#528 Edited by terry2012 (4821 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlab3000: Well Bardock had his every since he is introduce, and Future Gohan had his every since he was a kid.

#529 Posted by xlab3000 (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

@thefanpireslayer: Goku used a energy barrier in tree of might

@terry2012: Broly never showed his wound in none of the movies. goku did not hit him there if that's what you're trying to suggest.
@slimj87d said:

I would like to clarify something about Ki usage and power level.

Tori explained that Ki is like gasoline. Saiyan forms are like completely different cars with different systems. When Goku goes Super Saiyan it's like the user is hopping out of their standard economic car into a sports car. Power levels are how these cars can transfer gasoline into horse power, therefore power level is the horse power HP.

When Trunks goes Ultimate Super Saiyan he's upgrading to a truck but keeping the same engine but only turbocharged in his sports car making him slower, but more durable That turbo might have let the engine run the truck but slowly.

When Gohan goes SS2, he's just a upgraded sports car , etc and etc.

When Goku performed that punch on Broly, he received Ki from everyone, so regardless of what form they were in, it did not matter. They overloaded Goku with Ki and he was able to somehow discharge all that Ki into one powerful attack to kill Broly. The amount of Ki you have is not affected by your power levels or forms. Ki is something that is consumed for them to perform their feats.

I just wanted to clarify this part so people understand the the defeat of Broly the first time.

#530 Posted by terry2012 (4821 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d:

I would like to clarify something about Ki usage and power level.

Tori explained that Ki is like gasoline. Saiyan forms are like completely different cars with different systems. When Goku goes Super Saiyan it's like the user is hopping out of their standard economic car into a sports car. Power levels are how these cars can transfer gasoline into horse power, therefore power level is the horse power HP.

When Trunks goes Ultimate Super Saiyan he's upgrading to a truck but keeping the same engine but only turbocharged in his sports car making him slower, but more durable That turbo might have let the engine run the truck but slowly.

When Gohan goes SS2, he's just a upgraded sports car , etc and etc.

When Goku performed that punch on Broly, he received Ki from everyone, so regardless of what form they were in, it did not matter. They overloaded Goku with Ki and he was able to somehow discharge all that Ki into one powerful attack to kill Broly. The amount of Ki you have is not affected by your power levels or forms. Ki is something that is consumed for them to perform their feats.

I just wanted to clarify this part so people understand the the defeat of Broly the first time.

Exactly, and it is the same method with their Kai as to why it drains so much no matter what they do.

#531 Edited by terry2012 (4821 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlab3000: It shown in the second coming at end when Broly is in the sun. I'm talking about the second coming and not the first one. I know he did not hit him there as I said before when someone had corrected me earlier. A Sayian body is similar to a human. Meaning some wounds heal and some of them do not, some of them heal but not all the way, and some may not heal. There are some that can be broken beyond and repair. Broly and Goku plus the rest them are no different from this, which is why you see Goku in the hospital earlier on in the series. They have no healing factor, which only means they heal just like a human would. Broly wound never heal because it could have not properly since no one did any surgery on Broly wound to repair it. So it make sense that his wound did not fully heal. I already gave Bardock and Future Gohan as a example of this. I'm not suggesting anything.

Skip to 4:50

Actually in the first movie Goku punch him in the stomach to put a whole in him and then proceed to punch him all the way up to his chest, but not where he'd receive it from when he was kid.

#532 Posted by Abocado (666 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc said:

@p0rtal said:

the internet still hasnt recovered from the goku vs superman death battle. Goku lost, fanboys went insane. They got a definintive answer and the same would happen if Broly were stated to be "this powerful". DBZ fans would go nuts.

>implying Death Battle isn't retarded

Death Battle is Retarded, they use the wrong base for Goku, I was looking forward to it, in all honesty because of the hype.

After watching it, I almost punched my monitor.

#533 Posted by OverLordArhas (7667 posts) - - Show Bio

@abocado: IIRC, it was Goku's base during the Saiyan Saga.

#534 Edited by ComicStooge (12081 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh god, people are still whining about that Death Battle.

Online
#535 Posted by Abocado (666 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh god, people are still whining about that Death Battle.

People are still whining about Wonder Woman losing to Rogue.

#536 Posted by ComicStooge (12081 posts) - - Show Bio

@abocado said:

@comicstooge said:

Oh god, people are still whining about that Death Battle.

People are still whining about Wonder Woman losing to Rogue.

Not nearly as much as they are about Goku vs Superman.

Online
#537 Edited by cooljammy18 (842 posts) - - Show Bio

@abocado said:

@comicstooge said:

Oh god, people are still whining about that Death Battle.

People are still whining about Wonder Woman losing to Rogue.

That's even more retarded honestly.

@xlab3000: Indeed his powerlevel says he should be. However, we have seen Broly casually destroy planets with Eraser cannons. But my post was about why Vegeta and Goku didn't no sell buu using barriers. Why did they let him blow up the earth.

DBZ is full of glaring plotholes and character stupidity. We should know this by now.

#538 Edited by Setherial (209 posts) - - Show Bio

You've got to be lost up in derpville to believe that Broly has the slightest chance against Majin Vegeta, who'd kill him with a single punch.

#539 Posted by Abocado (666 posts) - - Show Bio

@abocado said:

@comicstooge said:

Oh god, people are still whining about that Death Battle.

People are still whining about Wonder Woman losing to Rogue.

Not nearly as much as they are about Goku vs Superman.

been here recently, how much is the effect in the vine when it was first shown?

#540 Edited by ComicStooge (12081 posts) - - Show Bio

@abocado said:

@comicstooge said:

@abocado said:

@comicstooge said:

Oh god, people are still whining about that Death Battle.

People are still whining about Wonder Woman losing to Rogue.

Not nearly as much as they are about Goku vs Superman.

been here recently, how much is the effect in the vine when it was first shown?

None, from what I remember.

Or very, very little.

Online
#541 Edited by OverLordArhas (7667 posts) - - Show Bio

Just want to put it in the table

Broly Hibernating w/o Shield:

Aura Sitll on

Still on

Growing weaker

Lost SSJ state and Aura/ Frozen alive, any living being subjected to this is dead in an instant. Guess Broly is different.

Broly awaken in SSJ1, Shield colored yellow

Charging an Eraser Canon

This is the Type of Eraser Canon that supplies his Omega Blaster.

Broly tanking SSJ1 Trunks at his SSJ1 form

One of my favorite Scene

Gohan Transforming into the controversial SSJ2

One rationale is, why would Broly Transform into a LSSJ from just a mere SSJ1

Broly tanking a direct blow from the face from Gohan

Gohan Escaping from Broly's Knee to the Back

A direct punch to the face did not phase him, but a knee does. Plus a SSJ1 cannot escape from that.

Broly taking a LAVA BATH

Clearly, Broly tank the LAVA before putting up his Shield, there are minor bruises all-over his body.

My second favorite pic., Krillin surviving an Eraser Canon

#542 Posted by The_PAIN (720 posts) - - Show Bio

I saw a cool concept art

#543 Posted by Chibi_cute (4489 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai said:

@p0rtal said:

the internet still hasnt recovered from the goku vs superman death battle. Goku lost, fanboys went insane. They got a definintive answer and the same would happen if Broly were stated to be "this powerful". DBZ fans would go nuts.

It's not the end result that got people upset, it's the method they went about it that's caused such a furious debate. Such as using All-Star Superman, which isn't the same as Post-Crisis Superman. As well as their own brand of calculations to base Goku's strength and speed off of, which doesn't reflect the increase of ability in the series.

There were also assumptions that the upcoming canon movie "Battle of Gods" wouldn't be a factor in the final debate, though as we saw it may have changed things considerably. There was also the argument about the "Future Goku" being a god after merging with Shenron, which can't be defined and them saying "Then we'd have to use Future Superman whose a god". The difference being Goku appeared a century after the end of GT, and Superman spent 15thousand years inside the Sun to become a God.

An issue that becomes moot with BoG as Goku becomes a SSJ God just 5yrs after the end of DBZ, a form which apparently blows SS4 out of the water and retcons all of GT at once. There was also ignoring the PL scaling system which had been prevalent throughout the series, even when the original numbers ended in the Freeza Saga, the company continued giving out PL indicators through V-Jump and other magazines encompassing some of the movies and up through the Majin Buu Saga.

Judging a persons ability via PL only didn't matter to those who could sense it as the villains often couldn't, like the Ginyu force, who judged only by what number they could visibly see on their Scouters, rather than what they could Feel for themselves. This system only became irrelevant after the end of the Freeza Saga when the enemies could Sense and Feel the energies of others, making putting a number on it almost pointless except to tell the Viewers who was stronger than who.

One of the mistakes the DB team made was early on with the Snake Way speed calc as it was under the idea that it was the Road that was 1mil km and not the Air Space. With evidence of Goku's speed and ability from Dragon Ball up to his fight with Raditz, there isn't any reason as to why Goku shouldn't taken six months to complete a run on Snake Way if it was 1mil km long.

As a Teen he could catch and evade multiple machine-gun fire and missiles and move so fast as to be invisible, even to people who can do the same thing. The Z-fighters were already in the Super-Sonic range that early, so there's no way he wouldn't be running at a fair clip of that when trying to get to King Kai's as quickly as he could to receive training.

Even if Goku only ran at Mach 1 (roughly 762mph) and given 12hrs a day to sleep, it would've taken him only little over 2mo to get to the end (68days). Instead it took him six months to do it, which is nearly three-times longer than projected (and the stuff in HFIL/Hell is non-canon along with Princess Snake. That's all filler). So either the Road is much longer than stated by the Ogre who led Goku to the start of Snake Way, or he's running much, much slower than he's capable of.

There's also the speed of his return trip and use of Nimbus. At the beginning of Dragon Ball, the Flying Nimbus could fly at Mach 1.5. This clearly changed as Goku got stronger, and it is my speculation that the Nimbus reflects the abilities of its rider. As such, Goku rode it from Kurrin's Tower to the battlefield with the Saiyans in 10min, a distance of nearly six-thousand miles. That would place the Nimbus' speed at well over Mach 50.

I am strongly convinced that goku can move at light speed or FTL during the freiza saga he dodged an attack from freiza at point blank range that if you get caught by the light of that said attack you will get paralyzed picollo himself stated that goku dodged the light itself. Raditz who is much weaker than his brother dodged an attack from picollo that is said to be moving at the speed of light picollo also himself stated that he is faster than light.

#544 Posted by reikai (4117 posts) - - Show Bio

@chibi_cute: That was a dubbing error in the original anime. Piccolo's Makankosappo wasn't lightspeed and it was stated his aim was off from having lost an arm. However Piccolo's beam that destroyed the Moon is roughly calc'd around one-quarter lightspeed.

#545 Edited by xlab3000 (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai: his attack should be lightspeed remember that was before he started training with Gohan and you stated the calc of the beam he shot at the moon is 1/4 of light speed.

#546 Posted by OverLordArhas (7667 posts) - - Show Bio

@chibi_cute:

That is where Supes is so inconsistent, we all know that he can absorb X amount of yellow Sun Radiation but the question is, how much can he metabolize?

We all know that SBP and Supergirl surpass him in this aspect. That is why I do not understand the Sun Dip Business.

#547 Posted by OverLordArhas (7667 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlab3000: @reikai:

So, what is the speed of Master Roshi's Moon Bust Kamehameha?

#548 Edited by xlab3000 (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas: it should massively hypersonic. most wikis consider it an outlier.

#549 Posted by thelocust619 (2198 posts) - - Show Bio

I just saw a naruto vs goku thread where naruto won, and the only guy who supported goku said he had to so ssj2 to beat him. I'm...still shaking. I think I need a hug. And no, stop with the superman vs goku. Peak superman has at least system busting resistance and gogeta-style dimension busting punches, while I believe if ssj3 goku put everything in one shot from full power he would destroy a whole star...that's it, he's out of juice. Supes is still there. Wait for the new movies/hopefully series to come out before we kicking that dead horse some more. Anyway, Brolly is a Main level threat, definitely. Cell was only devastating cuz he could regenerate, and goku blew him in half not long after Broly, so Broly had to be tougher. Majin Buu and Broly are multi-system busters with the stamina to wipe out galaxies over time, both of which are stronger than majin vegeta alone, who couldn't beat buu. In fact, his suicide blast didn't even destroy the planet

#550 Edited by OverLordArhas (7667 posts) - - Show Bio

I just saw a naruto vs goku thread where naruto won, and the only guy who supported goku said he had to so ssj2 to beat him. I'm...still shaking. I think I need a hug. And no, stop with the superman vs goku. Peak superman has at least system busting resistance and gogeta-style dimension busting punches, while I believe if ssj3 goku put everything in one shot from full power he would destroy a whole star...that's it, he's out of juice. Supes is still there. Wait for the new movies/hopefully series to come out before we kicking that dead horse some more. Anyway, Brolly is a Main level threat, definitely. Cell was only devastating cuz he could regenerate, and goku blew him in half not long after Broly, so Broly had to be tougher. Majin Buu and Broly are multi-system busters with the stamina to wipe out galaxies over time, both of which are stronger than majin vegeta alone, who couldn't beat buu. In fact, his suicide blast didn't even destroy the planet

The reason why the "Suicide Attack" did not destroy the planet is because of KI control, even Broly displays it.