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#1 Posted by Drache64 (334 posts) - - Show Bio

Kas'im who reportedly mastered all forms of known saber combat (leaves out vapaad) vs Windu. 
 
location Ruined Lehon Sith Temple (Strong in Dark Side energy) 
in character 
morals on.

#2 Posted by Drache64 (334 posts) - - Show Bio

more info for those that dont know Kas'im exerpt from Wookiepedia
-character from "Darth Bane: Path of Destruction" 

Kas'im's strongest skill was his swordsmanship with the lightsaber. It was this trait that earned him the position of Blademaster at the Korriban Academy. He preferred the double-bladed lightsaber not out of versatility, which he himself stated the weapon lacked, but because of the unfamiliar nature it possessed against an opponent. In addition to these skills, Kas'im was a lethal practitioner of the dual-blade variant of Form IV, a skill he kept secret and discouraged his students from delving into.

After years of study, Kas'im mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat. He then honed his skills for decades, perfecting every move and sequence. Kas'im's proficiency with the lightsaber was such that he was considered amongst the Sith to be the greatest swordsman in the galaxy, and possibly the greatest ever to have lived. His lightsaber was a unique construction like all lightsabers, but had a certain distinction—it could be disconnected in the center, changing a formal double-bladed lightsaber into a pair of single blades.

As well as being a skilled duelist, Kas'im was strong in the Force and could use various Force powers. He was able to shield himself using the Force, a technique he taught all his students to protect them from being disarmed by telekinesis. Kas'im could also use telekinesis himself, employing it to execute jumps while dueling.

#3 Edited by JediXMan (31026 posts) - - Show Bio

Windu stomps. He has vastly superior feats.

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#4 Posted by Kellar21 (444 posts) - - Show Bio
Windu stomps. He has vastly superior feats.

This and Vaapad is very good against darkside users.

#5 Edited by Drache64 (334 posts) - - Show Bio

"Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. after years of study, He'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then He'd honed his skills for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon, and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest Swordsman ever. ... He seemed to weild six blades instead of two: he attacked with a peculair rythim designed to keep his foe off balance, coming in with one blade high and the other low at the same time, striking form opposite sides at odd opposite angles. (exerpt from the book) I vote Kas'im

#6 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:

Windu stomps. He has vastly superior feats.

This. 
 
Flagged for mismatch. There is no way Kas'im is winning this.
#7 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@JediXMan said:

Windu stomps. He has vastly superior feats.

Flagged for mismatch. There is no way Kas'im is winning this.

This

#8 Posted by Drache64 (334 posts) - - Show Bio

the best fighter of his time and beyond (kas'im) vs "one" of the best fighters of his time (mace)

I don't think its a mismatch. how many other characters in the SWU "master" all 7 forms of light saber combat. And Kas'im is the only person in SWU to be mentioned as "perfecting" ALL 7 forms of combat. You can think Mace would win, but please don't literally insult me by saying this should be flagged for mismatch. I think if we were given more literature on Kas'im people would change their tone about him. In the only book Kas'im is in, Drew Karpyshyn, talked him up as best a I think a writer can without exasperating him self. He writes multiple times in the book about Kas'im's skill with Sabers and most of those times were over 3 paragraphs long. I think the point Drew was making was that Kas'im (noted as the perfect weapon) was only beaten because he fought someone who was much stronger in the force (Bane crushed a temple around Kas'im after kas'im had beaten Bane with little effort in saber combat). If Mace wins this (which i think it would be close) its only because of shatter points, Vapaad alone isn't a good enough reason as Kas'im was already noted multiple times as a "perfect" fighter.

#9 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Drache64 said:

the best fighter of his time and beyond (kas'im)

Kas'im being the best fighter of his time is dependent on Bane's opinion, nothing more, and Bane was hardly aprised on the precise skill level of every notable duelist of his time period or every duelist preceding it. His estimation that Kas'im is the best Sith duelist of all time is just Karpyshyn's lovely hyperbole at work to make Bane fighting Kas'im seem more impressive. Fact is, Kas'im struggled profusely with Bane, and Bane was only a Sith trainee of a few years, and even Bane at his prime is an inferior duelist to Mace. You really think that is comparable to Mace? 
 

how many other characters in the SWU "master" all 7 forms of light saber combat.

Am I supposed to care how many styles Kas'im learned? If his practical application of that knowledge is weak, his technical knowledge is moot. Mace has studied all forms as well, as he would have to to not only become a Juyo practitioner but develop an off-shoot of the Juyo form. 
 

And Kas'im is the only person in SWU to be mentioned as "perfecting" ALL 7 forms of combat.

Call me when that "perfecting of all 7 forms of combat" actually let Kas'im beat a reputable fighter instead of struggling with academy trainees.
 

I think a writer can without exasperating him self.

LOL @ this. 
 

please don't literally insult me by saying this should be flagged for mismatch

Not an insult. The fight is simply a mismatch. 
 

its only because of shatter points

Shatterpoint has never allowed Mace to beat a noteworthy opponent. It has only ever served him against cannon fodder. 
 

Vapaad alone isn't a good enough reason as Kas'im was already noted multiple times as a "perfect" fighter.

Kas'im can be called the "perfect fighter" as much as you want; his pitiful performance against Bane speaks for itself. Compare that to Mace, who has fought evenly with Count Dooku, held his own against Yoda, beaten Asajj Ventress, fought evenly with Sora Bulq, fought evenly with Saesee Tiin, fought evenly with General Grievous, and so on. Mace is the second best duelist in the Jedi Order by AotC, the best being Yoda, and Yoda is quite possibly the greatest swordsman the Jedi Order ever produced according to Fightsaber. The distinction here is that we have objective, out of universe sources to tell us that, such as Nick Gillard or Power of the Jedi Sourcebook. On the other hand, all we have to substantiate (and I use that term in the loosest possible sense) Kas'im perported skill is Bane's opinion that Kas'im is the supreme Sith duelist of all time, an opinion he has no business maintaining given Bane's utter ignorance of the skills of other Sith before him. Mace and Kas'im's respective feats make it very clear who the victor here is. Windu stomps.
#10 Posted by Drache64 (334 posts) - - Show Bio

at this point i have to wonder if we read the same book. please tell me you didn't just stop at the excerpt on the back of the Rise of Darth Vader Novel... If you aren't willing to base your arguments on quantifiable fact then i don't really know why you'd post. The novel isn't written from Bane's point of view. he almost lost to Bane before he switched to dual wielding at which point Bane's only hope was frenzied escape and home field advantage. You should read the book some time it's one of my favorites I have read it about 5 times. And I can't call you as I don't have your number but the only struggle Kas'im had was with the sith'ari due to his nature of dark side prowess and mastering All 7 forms was considered a feat because normal fighters have a hard time with fighters who rapidly switch styles. (read a Vader book you'd like those too, and it will help you better understand starwars).

#11 Posted by JediXMan (31026 posts) - - Show Bio

@Drache64 said:

at this point i have to wonder if we read the same book. please tell me you didn't just stop at the excerpt on the back of the Rise of Darth Vader Novel... If you aren't willing to base your arguments on quantifiable fact then i don't really know why you'd post.

... yeah, with that you pretty much just lost all credibility on this website after saying that to Silver.

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#12 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Drache64 said:

The novel isn't written from Bane's point of view.

Have you ever heard of perspective-based descriptions? The duel switched between Bane and Kas'im's point of view as necessary to describe their thoughts with most of it centering on Bane. It was during one of these sequences that Kas'im was referred to as possibly the best duelist in the galaxy. 

Bane hesitated. Few of the students at the Academy had even attempted to use two sabers at once. The Blademaster had always discouraged them from this variation of the fourth form, saying it was inherently flawed. Now, as he saw the cruel and cunning expression on his enemy’s face, Bane understood the real truth.
The battle was rejoined, but now it was Bane who was in full retreat. Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate the unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style. His mind was flooded with a million options of what his opponent might attempt, and he had no experience to draw on to eliminate any of them. Overwhelmed, he staggered back, floundering with the desperation of a drowning man.
Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn’t win. Kas’im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he’d mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he’d honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him.

--Taken from Path of Destruction
 
It's call subjective third person; it's a narrative method. That few paragraphs was written from Bane's perspective; it was his opinion that Kas'im was the greatest swordsman. Nothing else. 
 
I see no reason to dignify the rest of the nonsense in your post either. All of it is one huge red herring mess that fails to respond to any of the points I made. 
 
This thread is still a mismatch. Kas'im has accomplished nothing to rival Mace.
#13 Posted by Drache64 (334 posts) - - Show Bio

you only had two points that were worth commenting on, banes perspective vs objective narrarator, and knowing 7 forms of saber combat and its practical application utilized by Kas'im. which i addressed both of those, one you refused to comment on. why would i wish to argue shatterpoints and how they DONT help mace? or comment on your LOL @ this remark? if i failed to remark on those I'm sorry but it was intentional. and i still disagree with you on the subjective third person, I take it as an objective third person view because it states as truth what could only be assumption on bane's part. and my other point I'll reiterate because you have Failed" to comment on it as well, you say Kas'im doesn't show significant feats, thats because there is a whole universe of content for Mace and only one book for Kas'im. I beleive the Character was written by drew to be a better fighter than mace windu. I see no reason to dignify the rest of the nonsense in your post either. All of it is one huge red herring mess that fails to respond to any of the points I made.

#14 Posted by Drache64 (334 posts) - - Show Bio

but you have made points and i have made points and i don't see either of us changing views. i'd say Kas'im takes 6/10 you say mace takes 10/10 and others agree with you. so Mace wins. thank you for the debate it was better than the other forum sites i saw this battle on where it devolved into a conversation on power rangers... *tip my hat to you sir*