#1 Posted by Alpha (7322 posts) - - Show Bio

Longshot:

Psychometry, probability manipulation and superhuman agility. Carries cleaver-like blades which he hurls with inhuman accuracy.

Midnighter:

Enhanced physical attributes and the ability to anticipate the moves of his opponents.

#2 Posted by Kravicia (50 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd go with Longshot. As long as "his motives are good", he'd have the upper hand

Does Midnighter only predict opponent moves? Or does he predict other stuff like his sorroundings or battlefield scenarios? (I may have him confused with someone else)

If just countering enemy attacks/movement, then that could work against Midnighter.

Longshot can affect his environment to work in his favor & if Midnighter is just focusing on how LS is moving and less to the stuff around him, then LS would gain an advantage.

#3 Posted by Ebony Bishop (767 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, I remember being in on that one...and I also took Longshot's side. If his motives are pure...the dude broke Juggernauts armour.

#4 Posted by Sling Shot (3560 posts) - - Show Bio

Ahhh this fight. Yeah it got pretty philosophical. I and a couple others debated this one pretty thoroughly. I championed Longshot's chances due tothe nature of his powers, and Buckshot debated that Midnighter's enhancements could not be trumped by said powers. There were others involved,I believe Sync but I can't remember right now. Yeah it was a good'un.

#5 Posted by Sling Shot (3560 posts) - - Show Bio

Ebony Bishop says:

"Yes, I remember being in on that one...and I also took Longshot's side. If his motives are pure...the dude broke Juggernauts armour."

He did?! When?

#6 Posted by Ebony Bishop (767 posts) - - Show Bio

Ugh -- I have no scans at work...Juggernaut vs. Dazzler, Rogue, Psylocke and Longshot. To beat him, Longshot throws his spikes at him, hitting the armour at precisely the weak spots (woohoo for luck!), which allows a Juggernaut-power enhanced Rogue to pull his helmet off, since it's usually sealed to his armour, and then Dazzler blasts off the leather straps that hold his skullcap on, and then Psylocke puts him down for the count.

It was during the Silvestri period of X-Men, prior to Fall of the Mutants.

#7 Posted by Danko (276 posts) - - Show Bio

Sling Shot says:

"Ebony Bishop says:
"Yes, I remember being in on that one...and I also took Longshot's side. If his motives are pure...the dude broke Juggernauts armour."
He did?! When?"

Wasn't that in the Uncanny X-Men number 218? That's the only one i remember anyway. He wedges some knives between his helmet.

#8 Posted by Buckshot (18913 posts) - - Show Bio

I still say Midnighter.

Moderator
#9 Posted by Buckshot (18913 posts) - - Show Bio

When I think he can win, yeah.

Moderator
#10 Posted by Ebony Bishop (767 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"I still say Midnighter."

Heh...you always say Midnighter!

#11 Posted by King Saturn (223812 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter would win here in a decent fight. Midnighter could use The Doors to his advantage here if he needed to against Longshot.

#12 Posted by Super-Buster (2358 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm... this is interesting, and I think it will come down to how, exactly, Midnighter's power works. What is Midnighter going to do against a lightning bolt that just happens to strike him, or some weak ground somewhere, or blades that happen to ricochet everywhere leaving no room for M to escape (I could come up with more depending on the battlefield)? What if his battle computer starts acting up? Would Midnighter's power allow him to predict these things? Does it take in every possibility? From what I know, Midnighter's power is not absolute, he doesn't know every possible scenario at the beginning of the battle. He goes through millions within the first second which is usually enough, but with LS he is actually going to need to know every possible scenario because each one is likely to happen. I suppose it would depend on how lucky LS actually got.

#13 Posted by Super-Buster (2358 posts) - - Show Bio

King Saturn says:

"Midnighter would win here in a decent fight. Midnighter could use *The Doors* to his advantage here if he needed to against Longshot. "

Why "Door" LS when a simple bashing in of the skull would suffice? I think the issue here is not what they have to kill each other since they both have ample ways to do so, but M's battle computer vs. LS's luck.

#14 Posted by Sling Shot (3560 posts) - - Show Bio

Super-Buster says:

"Hmm... this is interesting, and I think it will come down to how, exactly, Midnighter's power works. What is Midnighter going to do against a lightning bolt that just happens to strike him, or some weak ground somewhere, or blades that happen to ricochet everywhere leaving no room for M to escape (I could come up with more depending on the battlefield)? What if his battle computer starts acting up? Would Midnighter's power allow him to predict these things? Does it take in *every* possibility? From what I know, Midnighter's power is not absolute, he doesn't know every possible scenario at the beginning of the battle. He goes through millions within the first second which is usually enough, but with LS he is actually going to need to know every possible scenario because each one is likely to happen. I suppose it would depend on how lucky LS actually got."

Or his implants randomly malfunctioning.

I have yet to see any eapon that can master reality in the hands of a mere mortal. Which makes me think that Longshot's ability of reality essentially asserting itself in his favor is hard to circumvent even for the excellence of execution Midnighter.

#15 Posted by Buckshot (18913 posts) - - Show Bio

Reality seems to change to suit him, but not impossibly so. Incredibly unlikely things take place, but not blatantly impossible things. If that's true then there's a chance they could happen and if there's a chance, then Midnighter's computer will encounter that chance and he can be ready if it happens. Maybe it's so unlikely that it won't be covered in the first million things Midnighter goes through, but I doubt that Longshot's going to beat him in a second so he'll have more than his first million. Every second Midnighter's still fighting is another million (or more if Midnighter can increase the number of scenarios he runs since some in-comic descriptions of his power say he runs every scenario, not just "a million") scenarios he goes over. Also, Midnighter's computer looking at the craziness that Longshot can do might tell him to go for a quick kill in which case he can turn on his speed and kill Longshot before he makes a move. He can also use his Doors to kill Longshot or his radio-telepathy to distract him while they fight.

On the implants not working, that's at least the third time that's been mentioned against Midnighter. What is it about Midnighter that makes his powers suddenly not working an option when that's never said for anyone else? I've never seen it said in any fight that Wolverine would suddenly stop healing, Martian Manhunter would spontaneously combust, Juggernaut would miraculously lose his invulnerability, Superman would trip and fall into a field of Kryptonite, Spider-Man's powers would go on the fritz or Iron Man's suit would shut down. And it's not because of Longshot either because the other Longshot/Midnighter thread is below and I don't think it was mentioned then, and I know it was mentioned in a fight without a reality warper and I'm pretty sure also in a fight against Spider-Man. And really, does Longshot go around making people's powers shut off? I don't see the point of even considering that anyway. What's the point of Longshot vs Midnighter if Midnighter doesn't have his powers? That is no longer Longshot vs Midnighter. That's Longshot vs an angry gay man in leather.

http://www.comicvine.com/message/longshot-vs-midnighter/22123/

Moderator
#16 Posted by Alpha (7322 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"Reality seems to change to suit him, but not impossibly so. Incredibly unlikely things take place, but not blatantly impossible things. If that's true then there's a chance they could happen and if there's a chance, then Midnighter's computer will encounter that chance and he can be ready if it happens. Maybe it's so unlikely that it won't be covered in the first million things Midnighter goes through, but I doubt that Longshot's going to beat him in a second so he'll have more than his first million. Every second Midnighter's still fighting is another million (or more if Midnighter can increase the number of scenarios he runs since some in-comic descriptions of his power say he runs every scenario, not just "a million") scenarios he goes over. Also, Midnighter's computer looking at the craziness that Longshot can do might tell him to go for a quick kill in which case he can turn on his speed and kill Longshot before he makes a move. He can also use his Doors to kill Longshot or his radio-telepathy to distract him while they fight. On the implants not working, that's at least the third time that's been mentioned against Midnighter. What is it about Midnighter that makes his powers suddenly not working an option when that's never said for anyone else? I've never seen it said in any fight that Wolverine would suddenly stop healing, Martian Manhunter would spontaneously combust, Juggernaut would miraculously lose his invulnerability, Superman would trip and fall into a field of Kryptonite, Spider-Man's powers would go on the fritz or Iron Man's suit would shut down. And it's not because of Longshot either because the other Longshot/Midnighter thread is below and I don't think it was mentioned then, and I know it was mentioned in a fight without a reality warper and I'm pretty sure also in a fight against Spider-Man. And really, does Longshot go around making people's powers shut off? I don't see the point of even considering that anyway. What's the point of Longshot vs Midnighter if Midnighter doesn't have his powers? That is no longer Longshot vs Midnighter. That's Longshot vs an angry gay man in leather.
" />http://www.comicvine.com/message/longshot-vs-midnighter/22123/"

Couldn't his power cause his computer not to be able to read his movements. I mean he could be lucky and can't be read. His luck would effect him somehow. Midnighters abilities are sceince not mystical or able to negate Longshot's powers.

#17 Posted by Buckshot (18913 posts) - - Show Bio

Longshot could be really lucky and no one's powers could ever work on him, but that doesn't happen does it? Midnighter's abilities don't need to negate Longshot's powers for him to win.

Moderator
#18 Posted by Ace High (625 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter could probably react too fast for longshot to feasibly be able to react anyways. I mean generally Longshot's powers work during battle but if Midnigher rips out his spine asap then thats the end of that chapter.

#19 Posted by Super-Buster (2358 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"Reality seems to change to suit him, but not impossibly so. Incredibly unlikely things take place, but not blatantly impossible things. If that's true then there's a chance they could happen and if there's a chance, then Midnighter's computer will encounter that chance and he can be ready if it happens. Maybe it's so unlikely that it won't be covered in the first million things Midnighter goes through, but I doubt that Longshot's going to beat him in a second so he'll have more than his first million. Every second Midnighter's still fighting is another million (or more if Midnighter can increase the number of scenarios he runs since some in-comic descriptions of his power say he runs every scenario, not just "a million") scenarios he goes over."
"What you say might be true depending on how many scenarios there are in this particular battle. "millions" sounds like a big number, but it might be a small fraction of the total number of scenarios in this fight (Theoretically there could be infinity). If Midnighter is figuring out one million battle scenarios per second but there are a few billion (or infinity) scenarios total then it doesn't help much against longshot. You may doubt that LS could beat M before he could figure out every scenario, but what if he got really lucky and did it any ways?How is Midnighter going to "be ready" for every unlikely thing that takes place? Any of infinity things are likely to happen, what could Midnighter possibly do to be ready for them all? He can know that there is an increased likelihood of unlikely things happening, but there is now way for him to know which unlikely things are going to happen and when they are going to happen, not even LS knows that.How could M's battle computer run every single scenario? That's just absurd.Buckshot says:
"Also, Midnighter's computer looking at the craziness that Longshot can do might tell him to go for a quick kill in which case he can turn on his speed and kill Longshot before he makes a move. He can also use his Doors to kill Longshot or his radio-telepathy to distract him while they fight."

Ace High says:

"Midnighter could probably react too fast for longshot to feasibly be able to react anyways. I mean generally Longshot's powers work during battle but if Midnigher rips out his spine asap then thats the end of that chapter."

All of M's advantages over LS, his speed, his strength, his equipment, all they mean is that LS is going to have to be luckier to win this fight then if he was fighting someone who didn't have these advantages. LS doesn't have to react, his power will do it for him. What if Midnighter tripped? (It has happened to greater men and it is possible) What if LS tripped, accidentally getting out of the way? What if lightning struck him? A great many things could happen to stop M's blitz, many of which LS doesn't even have to raise a finger for.

Buckshot says:

"On the implants not working..."

I think you are talking to Sling Shot here. Just in case, none of the people you mentioned depend on machines for their powers. Every machine (even those in WS) suffers from wear and tear and occasionally malfunctions, its in their nature. It is conceivable for M's battle computer to slip a gear or something and malfunction. It's anti-climatic, and I understand why writers kept it out of comics, but it is possible and that's all it takes for this fight.

Thinking about this battle, M's and LS's powers are actually similar. Midnighter only needs one way, one chance and he can win (as is often alluded to by Buck) but it is the same for Longshot (hence is name). This fight could only depend on who's power is more powerful.

#20 Posted by Buckshot (18913 posts) - - Show Bio

Super-Buster says:

What you say might be true depending on how many scenarios there are in this particular battle. "millions" sounds like a big number, but it might be a small fraction of the total number of scenarios in this fight (Theoretically there could be infinity). If Midnighter is figuring out one million battle scenarios per second but there are a few billion (or infinity) scenarios total then it doesn't help much against longshot. You may doubt that LS could beat M before he could figure out every scenario, but what if he got really lucky and did it any ways?

This is why I generally don't like fights with reality warpers or people with luck powers and why I almost ignored both times this fight was put up. (I couldn't though, Midnighter was involved and I just had to attempt to defend him from this idiocy.) You can always say "he just gets really lucky and wins" but it says nothing about the fight. What if Longshot is so lucky that Midnighter has a couple heart attacks (one for each heart) the moment he sees Longshot? That's stupid and never happens. Anyway, I see Longshot losing fights and not getting luckier so he can win. I’ve seen Longshot get hit and be beaten before so I think Midnighter will come across a way to do it again and I don’t think it will take long. If beating Longshot were so impossible that it would take Midnighter looking through trillions of scenarios, then no one would ever do it, but that’s obviously not the case.

Super-Buster says:

How is Midnighter going to "be ready" for every unlikely thing that takes place? Any of infinity things are likely to happen, what could Midnighter possibly do to be ready for them all? He can know that there is an increased likelihood of unlikely things happening, but there is now way for him to know which unlikely things are going to happen and when they are going to happen, not even LS knows that.

Dunno, he's Midnighter. Maybe there are events that Longshot will trigger that affect a certain area so Midnighter moves out of that area. (For example, something falling on him or him tripping over a rock. He can flip backwards instead of taking a step forward or use a Door and bypass the rock entirely.) He could also put things between himself and whatever Longshot does and block off a number of different scenarios at once. (Putting a wall or Door in front of him stops anything coming from that direction, not just an individual attack.) And Midnighter will still know every move Longshot makes so Midnighter could cut off any move (a lucky punch, a throw that will wind up stabbing one of Midnighter's hearts, whatever) he makes before he makes it.

Super-Buster says:

How could M's battle computer run every single scenario? That's just absurd.

Comic book. Technological super genius and SPB creator of the Wildstorm Universe made the battle computer so it can do just that so I think it’s possible that it can.

Super-Buster says:

All of M's advantages over LS, his speed, his strength, his equipment, all they mean is that LS is going to have to be luckier to win this fight then if he was fighting someone who didn't have these advantages. LS doesn't have to react, his power will do it for him. What if Midnighter tripped? (It has happened to greater men and it is possible) What if LS tripped, accidentally getting out of the way? What if lightning struck him? A great many things could happen to stop M's blitz, many of which LS doesn't even have to raise a finger for.

And what if Midnighter punches Longshot dead in the face before he can react? He's been hit before by people slower than Midnighter, so why not? One punch from Midnighter takes Longshot's head off. What if Midnighter creates a Door directly under or all around Longshot and sends him back to Mojoworld? For all his luck, all Longshot's attackers don't get struck by lightning when they engage him in combat and he generally doesn't display super lucky defenses. He can be hit and it's even easier when he's caught off guard, and I think Midnighter hitting him at super speed or creating a Door under his feet would be a surprise.

Super-Buster says:

I think you are talking to Sling Shot here. Just in case, none of the people you mentioned depend on machines for their powers. Every machine (even those in WS) suffers from wear and tear and occasionally malfunctions, its in their nature. It is conceivable for M's battle computer to slip a gear or something and malfunction. It's anti-climatic, and I understand why writers kept it out of comics, but it is possible and that's all it takes for this fight.

You mentioned it too. "What if his battle computer starts acting up?" And I included Iron Man in my list precisely because he depends on his machines so I don't know what you're talking about. Still though, why assume machines are by default more susceptible to damage than organic material? (Something else I've heard before and don’t agree with.) If organic systems didn't suffer from "wear and tear" people wouldn't age or die. Organs degrade, cells mutate and become cancer, hearts fail, people get sick, brains forget information, skin sheds, peels and flakes, muscles tear or atrophy, senses diminish, etc. How do you know every machine degrades over time? Do you know the specifics of what Henry Bendix put into Midnighter? The implants, unless tampered with intentionally have never malfunctioned. He even has other machines in his body that heal him, fix his other machines if they’re altered, and fight off things that attempt to change things inside him. Midnighter has been seen thousands of years in the future still fighting with The Authority, so his implants don’t just fail. And I haven’t seen people’s bodies suddenly stop working while fighting Longshot.

Super-Buster says:

"Thinking about this battle, M's and LS's powers are actually similar. Midnighter only needs one way, one chance and he can win (as is often alluded to by Buck) but it is the same for Longshot (hence is name). This fight could only depend on who's power is more powerful."

You're right, each of them is a walking deus ex machina, and I choose Midnighter.

Moderator
#21 Posted by Alpha (7322 posts) - - Show Bio

My opinion is that Longshot's power would effect Midnighter to where he could simply not see a rock and trip giving Longshot the opportunity to hit him (thatls luck). The thing is Midnighter could still win the fight but thinking that his abilities that causes him to not to be able to be hit in other fights would still apply here is stating that he would somehow negate Longshot's luck powers.

Another way Longshot could win is by throwing all his knives at once and get lucky and actually have one hit him dead center of his head.

#22 Posted by Ebony Bishop (767 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"That is no longer Longshot vs Midnighter. That's Longshot vs an angry gay man in leather."

Now that I would buy!

#23 Posted by Cosmic Sentinel (3749 posts) - - Show Bio

Ebony Bishop says:

"Buckshot says:
"That is no longer Longshot vs Midnighter. That's Longshot vs an angry gay man in leather."
Now *that* I would buy!"

A Longshot vs an Angry Gay Man in leather. Sounds like a typical Saturday night to me.

#24 Posted by Super-Buster (2358 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"You can always say "he just gets really lucky and wins" but it says nothing about the fight. What if Longshot is so lucky that Midnighter has a couple heart attacks (one for each heart) the moment he sees Longshot? That's stupid and never happens."

My point in saying that LS could get lucky and defeat Midnighter before he figured out all necessary scenarios is that nothing is for sure in this battle. You were saying that Longshot couldn't beat Midnighter within the first second of the battle, yet even that is not certain it all depends on how lucky LS actually gets in this fight. Any number of stupid things could happen in this fight and those would make the fight boring but they shouldn't be discounted from the fight as long as it is possible. Things that never happened before could actually happen because of the nature of this fight.

Buckshot says:

"Anyway, I see Longshot losing fights and not getting luckier so he can win. I’ve seen Longshot get hit and be beaten before so I think Midnighter will come across a way to do it again and I don’t think it will take long. If beating Longshot were so impossible that it would take Midnighter looking through trillions of scenarios, then no one would ever do it, but that’s obviously not the case."

And I've seen Midnighter lose against a bunch of rhino-cops. You're missing the point anyways. I was arguing the effectiveness M's computer would have in this fight. It works by figuring out scenarios one at a time presumably starting with the most likely scenarios first, but if there are a trillion (or infinity) scenarios, each of which is just as likely to happen as the next one then Midnighter will most likely come across the right scenarios too late and his battle computer will be a of limited use. Others have defeated LS because they were just too much for LS's luck, not because they figured out all possible battle scenarios. Its not a trillion battle scenario's worth difficult to defeat LS, but in this particular match, each of those trillion scenarios is likely to happen and Midnighter, someone who depends on his ability to predict a fight will be at a disadvantage in a fight where things outside the normal realm of probability are likely to happen.

Buckshot says:

"Maybe there are events that Longshot will trigger that affect a certain area so Midnighter moves out of that area. (For example, something falling on him or him tripping over a rock. He can flip backwards instead of taking a step forward or use a Door and bypass the rock entirely.) He could also put things between himself and whatever Longshot does and block off a number of different scenarios at once. (Putting a wall or Door in front of him stops anything coming from that direction, not just an individual attack.)"

All of these things are ways for Midnighter to block a few sample unlikely events from happening but there is no way for him to block them all, there are simply too many that could happen at the same time. At any given moment, any of infinity things are likely to happen and there is no way for Midnighter to prepare for them all at the same time, he can only prepare for one at a time.

Buckshot says:

""And Midnighter will still know every move Longshot makes so Midnighter could cut off any move (a lucky punch, a throw that will wind up stabbing one of Midnighter's hearts, whatever) he makes before he makes it."

There is really no way for even Midnighter to predict what happens in this fight. This is because of the nature of LS's power, he doesn't control it. In this fight Midnighter would not have to predict what Longshot will do so much as what his power will do and it is impossible to predict luck. Midnighter can predict all possible outcomes of a roll of dice in less than a pico-second and he can probably predict the possibility of each outcome but there is no way for him to predict what the dice will actually be. Such is it with LS's power.

Buckshot says:

"Comic book. Technological super genius and SPB creator of the Wildstorm Universe made the battle computer so it can do just that so I think it’s possible that it can."

It doesn't matter who created it or how smart they are, the fact is that predicting every single scenario is impossible unless the computer somehow generates its own reality in which there is a finite amount of scenarios that could happen in a fight. Maybe those in-comic descriptions were hyperbole. In any case, it is blatantly impossible to predict every scenario because there are infinity scenarios since there are infinitely small portions of space and infinitely small increments of time.

Buckshot says:

"And what if Midnighter punches Longshot dead in the face before he can react? He's been hit before by people slower than Midnighter, so why not? One punch from Midnighter takes Longshot's head off. What if Midnighter creates a Door directly under or all around Longshot and sends him back to Mojoworld?"

I thought I just covered this. LS doesn't have to react to avoid these attacks. MIdnighter is not only fighting against Longshot, but also Luck and Luck doesn't have a reaction speed. Luck just happens. The instances where people have been able to land hits on Longshot are because, well, he wasn't lucky enough at those times. As I've been saying, I think this fight depends on how lucky Longshot gets, the scenarios you mentioned could work but there is no guarantee in this fight.

Buckshot says:

"For all his luck, all Longshot's attackers don't get struck by lightning when they engage him in combat and he generally doesn't display super lucky defenses. He can be hit and it's even easier when he's caught off guard, and I think Midnighter hitting him at super speed or creating a Door under his feet would be a surprise."

I think this goes along with what I was saying. For all his luck, some of his attackers do get struck by lightning, some trip or throw punches that unluckily miss some get struck by knives that had a near-zero chance of hitting them, what's to stop these things from happening to Midnighter? Any of these scenarios that we are mentioning could happen but there is no way to say what would actually happen in a fight because LS's power is unpredictable.

Buckshot says:

"And I included Iron Man in my list precisely because he depends on his machines so I don't know what you're talking about. Still though, why assume machines are by default more susceptible to damage than organic material? (Something else I've heard before and don’t agree with.) If organic systems didn't suffer from "wear and tear" people wouldn't age or die. Organs degrade, cells mutate and become cancer, hearts fail, people get sick, brains forget information, skin sheds, peels and flakes, muscles tear or atrophy, senses diminish, etc. How do you know every machine degrades over time? Do you know the specifics of what Henry Bendix put into Midnighter? The implants, unless tampered with intentionally have never malfunctioned. He even has other machines in his body that heal him, fix his other machines if they’re altered, and fight off things that attempt to change things inside him. Midnighter has been seen thousands of years in the future still fighting with The Authority, so his implants don’t just fail. And I haven’t seen people’s bodies suddenly stop working while fighting Longshot."

Sorry, must have skipped over Iron Man. The reason I believe machines are more susceptible to "wear and tear" than organic systems is because organic systems are constantly healing themselves (I'm assuming Iron Man's suit required regular maintenance and that the Extremis virus somehow has a way to repair the suit). But I didn't know that Midnighter had machines in his body that fixed his machines so I'll drop this.

Buckshot says:

"You're right, each of them is a walking deus ex machina, and I choose Midnighter."

I truthfully haven't decided yet, this fight is so... uhg.

#25 Posted by Ebony Bishop (767 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually, Super-Buster makes a good point. How does Midnighter determine what will happen, from what's likely to happen? I mean, if I rolled a die, Midnighter would see all possibilities of what might happen. He'd see it come up 1 through 6. He'd see it land on an edge, and fly off the table. He'd see it fly out of my hand and come at his eye. What have you.

How does that help? Because if it comes up "3", he can say: "I knew that was possible!"? What does seeing every possible outcome do for him? He knows that Longshot could throw his spike, and where that might be. He also sees every other possible angle and trajectory Longshot might throw it on. So what does he do? Dodge every possible trajectory? I mean, unless he goes intangible, how is he not just putting himself back in a different trajectory?

I would assume he runs through millions of possible outcomes, and just decides how many of them turn out a certain way, and bank on probabilities, right? Isn't that the only way it could possibly make sense for him to operate? I mean, it would work on most opponents, and Midnighter knocks Captain America out with three punches, or whatever.

But Longshot's power, provided his motivation is pure, would then discount probability, which would negate it from Midnighter's arsenal. He wouldn't be able to accurately predict what Longshot would do, which would make it pretty much just their physical abilities against each other, which actually still favours Midnighter by quite a bit, which makes this much more of an equal fight. Longshot is supposed to be one of the greatest warriors in the Mojoverse, and he's as agile as Spider-Man.

And for the record, Longshot's power is not reactive. Lucky things only happen when he acts. If he just stands there, nothing lucky would happen, because he's not motivated, and his power is motive based.

So, I don't have a pick, but I thought I might weigh in on some missed facts.

#26 Posted by Buckshot (18913 posts) - - Show Bio

Super-Buster says:

My point in saying that LS could get lucky and defeat Midnighter before he figured out all necessary scenarios is that nothing is for sure in this battle. You were saying that Longshot couldn't beat Midnighter within the first second of the battle, yet even that is not certain it all depends on how lucky LS actually gets in this fight. Any number of stupid things could happen in this fight and those would make the fight boring but they shouldn't be discounted from the fight as long as it is possible. Things that never happened before could actually happen because of the nature of this fight.

Longshot just gets luckier so he wins. Midnighter’s computer finds the way to victory so he wins.

Super-Buster says:

And I've seen Midnighter lose against a bunch of rhino-cops. You're missing the point anyways. I was arguing the effectiveness M's computer would have in this fight. It works by figuring out scenarios one at a time presumably starting with the most likely scenarios first, but if there are a trillion (or infinity) scenarios, each of which is just as likely to happen as the next one then Midnighter will most likely come across the right scenarios too late and his battle computer will be a of limited use. Others have defeated LS because they were just too much for LS's luck, not because they figured out all possible battle scenarios. Its not a trillion battle scenario's worth difficult to defeat LS, but in this particular match, each of those trillion scenarios is likely to happen and Midnighter, someone who depends on his ability to predict a fight will be at a disadvantage in a fight where things outside the normal realm of probability are likely to happen.

Rhino cops? Whatever. The combat computer is not being used only to avoid whatever possible things could happen to Midnighter. He doesn’t need to know every possible thing that will happen in order to do damage. The computer tells him everything that Longshot is doing. All he really needs to know is Longshot’s next move, where he’s going to jump to next, and then he can either put a Door in his way, send a shuriken flying where his head will be or just move there and throw a punch. I don’t believe that Longshot only gets hit because people are “too much for his luck.” Morph once stretched out and punched him with no difficulty (in a fight, not just as harmless fun). Was he too much for his luck? I don’t even know what that means but I don’t think so.

Super-Buster says:

All of these things are ways for Midnighter to block a few sample unlikely events from happening but there is no way for him to block them all, there are simply too many that could happen at the same time. At any given moment, any of infinity things are likely to happen and there is no way for Midnighter to prepare for them all at the same time, he can only prepare for one at a time.

Why can’t he block them all? Setting up some Doors around him blocks everything. Moving to a new location avoids all events that take place where he was just standing. Maybe he just avoids or blocks the ones that will do the most damage and lets the others hit him since he’s incredibly durable, feels no pain, and can heal most (including otherwise fatal) damage he sustains. If he knows everything that’s likely to happen he can make it so only the things he wants to hurt him get a chance and then if one of the things he is guarding against happens he’s fine, and if one of the things he’s chosen not to guard against happens, he can handle it.

Super-Buster says:

It doesn't matter who created it or how smart they are, the fact is that predicting every single scenario is impossible unless the computer somehow generates its own reality in which there is a finite amount of scenarios that could happen in a fight. Maybe those in-comic descriptions were hyperbole. In any case, it is blatantly impossible to predict every scenario because there are infinity scenarios since there are infinitely small portions of space and infinitely small increments of time.

Do you know how much of comics is just blatantly impossible?

Super-Buster says:

I thought I just covered this. LS doesn't have to react to avoid these attacks. MIdnighter is not only fighting against Longshot, but also Luck and Luck doesn't have a reaction speed. Luck just happens. The instances where people have been able to land hits on Longshot are because, well, he wasn't lucky enough at those times. As I've been saying, I think this fight depends on how lucky Longshot gets, the scenarios you mentioned could work but there is no guarantee in this fight.

I was under the impression (and apparently EB is as well) that luck works for him when he does things. You’re saying he’s only gotten hit when he wasn’t lucky enough, so maybe he just won’t be lucky enough now. You can say he gets luckier (why?) and I can say Midnighter still finds the ways he can be beaten.

Ebony Bishop says:

Actually, Super-Buster makes a good point. How does Midnighter determine what will happen, from what's likely to happen? I mean, if I rolled a die, Midnighter would see all possibilities of what might happen. He'd see it come up 1 through 6. He'd see it land on an edge, and fly off the table. He'd see it fly out of my hand and come at his eye. What have you.How does that help? Because if it comes up "3", he can say: "I knew that was possible!"? What does seeing every possible outcome do for him? He knows that Longshot could throw his spike, and where that might be. He also sees every other possible angle and trajectory Longshot might throw it on. So what does he do? Dodge every possible trajectory? I mean, unless he goes intangible, how is he not just putting himself back in a different trajectory?I would assume he runs through millions of possible outcomes, and just decides how many of them turn out a certain way, and bank on probabilities, right? Isn't that the only way it could possibly make sense for him to operate? I mean, it would work on most opponents, and Midnighter knocks Captain America out with three punches, or whatever.But Longshot's power, provided his motivation is pure, would then discount probability, which would negate it from Midnighter's arsenal. He wouldn't be able to accurately predict what Longshot would do, which would make it pretty much just their physical abilities against each other, which actually still favours Midnighter by quite a bit, which makes this much more of an equal fight. Longshot is supposed to be one of the greatest warriors in the Mojoverse, and he's as agile as Spider-Man.And for the record, Longshot's power is not reactive. Lucky things only happen when he acts. If he just stands there, nothing lucky would happen, because he's not motivated, and his power is motive based.So, I don't have a pick, but I thought I might weigh in on some missed facts.

Preciate your insight into this fight.

Midnighter’s power not only shows him every scenario (going through what’s possible and then working off what’s most probable, as you said), it also shows him specifically what a character will do. (How does that work? Not sure, maybe it’s because of the aspect of the computers that reads electrical signals in an enemy’s brain, but however it works, he does know the moves his enemies are going to make.) He may not be able to differentiate between which possible extra thing (lucky things not tied directly to Longshot’s actions) but he can still easily determine every move Longshot is going to make. So, using your example, he would still know which trajectory Longshot would throw a dagger at. From that action Longshot might hit a one in a hundred shot that does some wacky thing and because all absurdities have an equal opportunity with Longshot it happens, but Midnighter should know that too because he can see Longshot’s attack before it comes and can see the possible lucky reactions (or interrupt it before it does its thing). He wouldn’t have to plan for all the possible lucky reactions based on every possible trajectory, just all the possible lucky reactions based on the one trajectory he knows Longshot will throw from. For a lucky event that doesn’t result directly from Longshot’s actions he’d probably have to stick to just knowing what could happen and preparing/defending for as many possibilities as he can.

The computer also allows shows him every possible outcome from which he can pick the ending he wants and work backwards to get there. At first I thought that this would be less successful against Longshot than against other opponents simply because he can’t control Longshot’s actions and all the events taking place, but he can never fully control the actions of his enemy/enemies so I don’t think it’s any different. He might need to run more scenarios because of the increased chance of craziness, but he’s shown that a million scenarios is just a starting point and he’s capable of far more (highest specifically named number was trillions and he’s also gotten scenarios of entire days, not just single fights). How exactly he does it? Dunno.

Anyway, interesting fight I must admit (and Kudos to Sling for doing it first). I find that Midnighter wins or loses cleanly, he either can win or he can't, but Longshot's powers make it not so clear and provides more to think about. I think Midnighter wins, but there's (obviously) room for discussion.

Moderator
#27 Posted by the human Juggernaut (7224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ace High said:
"

Midnighter could probably react too fast for longshot to feasibly be able to react anyways. I mean generally Longshot's powers work during battle but if Midnigher rips out his spine asap then thats the end of that chapter.

"
with longshots powers, midnighter would trip on something and fall while trying to get to his spine, or he'll get hit by a car or some other random thing.
#28 Posted by StrongestOneThereIs (6490 posts) - - Show Bio
@the human Juggernaut said:
"
@Ace High said:
"

Midnighter could probably react too fast for longshot to feasibly be able to react anyways. I mean generally Longshot's powers work during battle but if Midnigher rips out his spine asap then thats the end of that chapter.

"
with longshots powers, midnighter would trip on something and fall while trying to get to his spine, or he'll get hit by a car or some other random thing. "
LOL! here to hopin it happens