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#1 Edited by cracks (6781 posts) - - Show Bio

Who and why?
 


#2 Posted by cracks (6781 posts) - - Show Bio

Bumpy. 

#3 Posted by Kael (63 posts) - - Show Bio
I would have to say the living tribunal.  i don´t know what the powers of white phoenix of the crow are...
#4 Posted by cracks (6781 posts) - - Show Bio
@Kael: hmm..
#5 Posted by Tevnoba (3494 posts) - - Show Bio

LT with ease.

#6 Posted by cracks (6781 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tevnoba: Which versions of Molecule Man and Beyonder can the Living Tribunal defeat?
#7 Posted by drkcloud (328 posts) - - Show Bio

LT is probably a match to PR beyonder and molecule man. both were omniversal and omnipotent beings, LT being second to TOAA 
he can easily defeat beyonder and molecule man post secret wars since LT is MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger then cosmic cubes

#8 Posted by cracks (6781 posts) - - Show Bio
@drkcloud: 
Which versions of Molecule Man and Beyonder can the Living Tribunal defeat? 
#9 Posted by gobstakid777 (1815 posts) - - Show Bio

yeah um......cracks, you're my dude, but i have to put this
 

#10 Posted by cracks (6781 posts) - - Show Bio
@gobstakid777: hmm...
#11 Edited by drkcloud (328 posts) - - Show Bio
@cracks: he can defeat Post secret wars with ease, he can match PR beyonder/molecule man
 
i have to admit though, im not familiar with White phoenix of the crown's Feats or achievements though, anyone care to share?
#12 Posted by cracks (6781 posts) - - Show Bio
@drkcloud: White Phoenix of the Crown, as I see it is basically near 100% of the Phoenix Force itself.  Much more powerful than Dark Phoenix.
#13 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix doesn't have the feats to do this.

#14 Posted by drkcloud (328 posts) - - Show Bio
@cracks:
i thought the phoenix force was a multiversal being at best? LT is omniversal and hes omnipotent, i'm sure that would count slightly more though
#15 Posted by randumo24 (4654 posts) - - Show Bio
@drkcloud said:
"LT is probably a match to PR beyonder and molecule man. both were omniversal and omnipotent beings, LT being second to TOAA  he can easily defeat beyonder and molecule man post secret wars since LT is MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger then cosmic cubes "

no he's not. He can beat the post version of beyonder, but he wouldn't have any chance against pre beyonder.
#16 Posted by cracks (6781 posts) - - Show Bio
@drkcloud: I was just talking about White Phoenix of the Crown and the Phoenix Force itself and how they compare.
#17 Posted by Stormultt (5317 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix force itself still cant compare to the one actually adored by TOAA
#18 Posted by Tevnoba (3494 posts) - - Show Bio
@cracks said:
" @Tevnoba: Which versions of Molecule Man and Beyonder can the Living Tribunal defeat? "
Both of the two retcons of them:
 
1st Retcon Beyonder and Owen were parts of the same cosmic cube - Kosmos.
2nd Retcon Beyonder is a mutant Inhuman and Owen . .well . . we have to wait and see how powerful he actually is as this is the current versions of the characters.
#19 Posted by cracks (6781 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tevnoba: I see. But it is the original versions of Molecule Man and Beyoner that Living Tribunal can not defeat, correct?
#20 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually this might sound crazy but there is nothing really that says LT couldn't beat pre-retcon MM. Yes he couldn't beat Beyonder and he asked MM to do it but that just means he couldn't beat Beyonder.
 
I'm not sure how MM could effect LT.

#21 Posted by cracks (6781 posts) - - Show Bio
@Baldy: Hmm.... Interesting.
#22 Posted by geraldthesloth (33313 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tevnoba said:
" LT with ease. "
#23 Posted by Son Of Storm (11283 posts) - - Show Bio



 Phoenix PREPARE FOR JUDGMENT!!!!!!!
#24 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@geraldthesloth said:
" @Tevnoba said:
" LT with ease. "
"
Moderator
#25 Posted by cracks (6781 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son Of Storm: LOL. I thought that you were going to say, " This thread should be locked!"     LOL.
#26 Posted by randumo24 (4654 posts) - - Show Bio

LT, but not easily.
#27 Edited by drkcloud (328 posts) - - Show Bio
@randumo24 said:

" @drkcloud said:

"LT is probably a match to PR beyonder and molecule man. both were omniversal and omnipotent beings, LT being second to TOAA  he can easily defeat beyonder and molecule man post secret wars since LT is MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger then cosmic cubes "
no he's not. He can beat the post version of beyonder, but he wouldn't have any chance against pre beyonder. "
i wouldn't say that he wouldn't have a CHANCE against pre beyonder, he could match PR-MM , who nearly matches PR-beyonder,at least brieftly so following 1-2-3 logic LT could nearly match PR-Beyonder
 
Beyonder might be nearly as strong as TOAA but i wouldn't put off LT that easily
#28 Posted by gobstakid777 (1815 posts) - - Show Bio
@randumo24 said:
" LT, but not easily. "
How the hell not?
#29 Posted by Tevnoba (3494 posts) - - Show Bio
@drkcloud said:
" @randumo24 said:

" @drkcloud said:

"LT is probably a match to PR beyonder and molecule man. both were omniversal and omnipotent beings, LT being second to TOAA  he can easily defeat beyonder and molecule man post secret wars since LT is MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger then cosmic cubes "
no he's not. He can beat the post version of beyonder, but he wouldn't have any chance against pre beyonder. "
i wouldn't say that he wouldn't have a CHANCE against pre beyonder, he could match PR-MM , who nearly matches PR-beyonder,at least brieftly so following 1-2-3 logic LT could nearly match PR-Beyonder  Beyonder might be nearly as strong as TOAA but i wouldn't put off LT that easily "
Actually I would.  The scale is something like:
 
TOAA => PR Beyonder > PR MM >>>>>>>>>>>>LT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Rest of the Marvel Multiverse.
#30 Posted by cracks (6781 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tevnoba: Where does Jaspers fit in that comparison diagram?
#31 Posted by sevennames27 (1583 posts) - - Show Bio

 
#32 Posted by JThree47693 (2538 posts) - - Show Bio

The Living Tribunal easily takes this
#33 Posted by Tevnoba (3494 posts) - - Show Bio

Tough to say, if I had to expand it some - maybe:
 Maybe 3 or 4 more > til MJJ

#34 Posted by Ziro (1352 posts) - - Show Bio

Living Tribunal.
#35 Posted by why so serious (1388 posts) - - Show Bio

LT.
#36 Posted by Erik (32252 posts) - - Show Bio

We know next to nothing about WPotC to be able to make a fair battle. 

#37 Posted by capall (8278 posts) - - Show Bio

it's quite obvious who would win here
#38 Edited by lord_oraculous016 (9282 posts) - - Show Bio


it is true that WPOTC doesn't have much showings in regards with her abilities to stand up to LT, but based on the facts that she is the "Embodiement of ther very passion of Creation" and her feat of holding a universe and healing it out of compassion says otherwise that she has the chops.. if some would think that healing a universe is far too low in the power scale feat department, then i beg to disaggree.. she could easily let it die, and manipulate it more so.. holding a universe is so far her only feat, so you can't claim it to be her highest..  
 
from what i know, the LT and WPOTC are the only two Marvel Entities that have shown to act in a Multiversal scale.. simply because of this i deem them equal (correct me if i'm wrong).. LT has the power to pass judgement to every being who he thinks is a threat to the cosmic balance.. the WPOTC possess the power to create and destroy "all that is" as well as serve as the doctor of the Multiverse, healing wounded Universes.. She also has the power to burn away the obsolete which pertain s to those who failed to evolve.. the LT has proven to be more powerful than the IG, while it is never shown if the WPOTC has the same power, but then i think she has.. why? let me break it down to you.. Let's look at each of the IG.. 
 
Mind = the Mind Gem is the collective conciousness of the universe giving its holder the power of all those collective minds.. the PF is the nexus of all psionic enery which does, has and ever will exist in the Multiverse so technically, the Mind Gem won't even work without her.. 
 
Power = the Power Gem gives its holder all the power in the Universe which if i'm not mistaken is derived from the Big Bang which created all that is.. the PF is the Big Bang.. 
 
Soul = the soul gem gives its holder the power to manipulate the all souls in the universe.. it was impressive when Thanos killed half of the population of the Universe just to please Death.. Death holds great respect to the WPOTC, as she is like her in so many ways.. Death embodies Order, Structure and Entropy.. while Phoenix embodies Life, Passion and Chaos.. all those souls were given to Death who controls the afterlife.. the WPOTC has her own afterlife.. known as the White Hot Room.. the White Hot Room is the Heart of Creation,  the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the realm where  the physical universe merges with the domains of spirit and imagination.. if WPOTC lay claims to one's soul, it is beyond Death's jurisdiction.. 
 
Time and Space = the WPOTC is beyond the boundaries of Time and Space.. 
 
Reality = the WPOTC operates outside Creation which is definitely outside any known aspect of Reality.. 
 
it doesn't claim that the WPOTC can depower the IG like LT, but is she under the power of the IG, that i doubt.. 
 
then there are the questions claiming "Where was she when the Mad Titan got hold of the IG? and if she is all powerful, why didn't she do anything?" so i would also want to ask, 'Where was he when the M'krann Crystal t hreatened to destroy "all that is"? and more so, can LT contain the raging powers of the M'krann Crystal, which once destroyed the previous universe when its integrity was tarnished? and why was it the Phoenix who saved all life from damnation back then? 
 
i know some people think its b lasphemous for a mortal to be more powerful than the fundamental forces of the universe.. why would she, an insignificant excuse for a being be given the power dubbed second only to the Creator? i don't know the answer myself.. but one thing is clear, Jean never wanted to possess such power.. all she wanted is to save her friends and the man she loves.. maybe from this act of love she hungered for power, but then it is all because of her love and compassion. Death tells her that of all the cosmic beings she scared the fundamental forces of the universe the most.. she is a human mutant with unlimited potential and represents a legitimate challenge to the fabric of reality.. those like her can grow to replace the fundamental forces of the universe. Death also said that since creation he had never met someone who is so dedicated to life than her..  

so now comes the tricky part, can LT strip the WPOTC her powers if he deems her as treat? well honestly i don't know.. the WPOTC is not just an avatar of the Primal Force, she and the Primal Force of Life is one..  
 
and not to mention back then when the Stranger planned to get hold the power of the Phoenix from Jean Grey to re-create creation.. he plans to destroy all the cosmic entities which serves as the very foundation of the very fabric of reality (Eternity, Death and yes, the Living Tribunal himself included) and make himself lord of all..  
 
so now i conclude that this two beings are the entities of the highest order.. both possess the same class and scale of power.. each with his/her own duty to perform.. 
 
The Living Tribunal, the judge of the multiverse. a being who  remains invariable thru out all and adjudicates as he sees best, disregarding any emotion like a computer following the programs commanded to him..   
 
and 
 
The White Phoenix of the Crown, the guardian and embodiement of the very passion of creation, a living Goddess with all the power of creation with the human compassion to use it properly.. 
 
who is more powerful? i guess only time can tell.. 
 
here are some scans for you guys.. enjoy..  
 
here we see the abstracts fearing the power of the Phoenix.. you can see the fundamental forces of the universe kneeling in front of the Stranger who they fear would gain access to the power of the Phoenix (Death, Infinity, The Living Tribunal, Eternity and Oblivion)..
 

 

here is The White Phoenix of the Crown doing her Phoenix Work.. 
 

 


 

 
#39 Posted by Samurai X (577 posts) - - Show Bio

LT slaughters her

#40 Edited by lord_oraculous016 (9282 posts) - - Show Bio

i remember a quote which goes "Vox populi, vox dei" which translates as "The voice of the people [is] the voice of God".. if the WPOTC is connected to the Primal Force of Life which is derived from the psyches of all living beings in the Multiverse, then her existence, her actions, and the scope of her power are all willed and ordered by "He who is Above All", making her second only to him and below to none.. i know there are no solid facts to my claims but i applied simple logic to the idea.. any person of intelligence would approve of this analogy, but the acceptance of the idea if beyond my conclusions and lies solely to the persons beliefs..  the Phoenix is such a profound being.. so complex and yet so simple.. with it i remember a certain story..  
 
have you ever heard  about a story where 3 blind men were asked to describe a certain object? each one was given a piece of that object  and decides, based on his own information, what the object is..One man said it was a snake, the other a tree and the other a drum.. but then, they were all wrong.. the object was an elephant.. they tried their best and their  guesses are good, which are based on their experiences and the range of their ability to perceive that certai object.. but then they can't see the whole and that apparently worked against them.. 
 
The idea of the Phoenix works the same.. it's a person, it's a power, It's a force, it's something that only Jean can make the most of..  it is not something that anyone can utilize and understand.. they say its the pool of unborn life, the very passion of creation or something which is beyond reality.. 
 
all those ideas could be right, but then they could also be wrong.. the Phoenix is an idea of such vast concept.. but one thing is clear.. the Phoenix is life.. b ut then what makes something alive? can someone define a living being? can one define all living things? life is said to be synonymous to passion and chaos.. all the things the Phoenix embodies.. in Marvel, isn't the universe alive? are all cosmic entities such as Eternity and Infinity alive? they themselves possess c onsciousness.. even the living tribunal possess one as well right? if if yes that makes him alive, yes? so does that mean each of them possess the fragment of the phoenix? yes? but then no..  
 
what is the White Hot Room? ity was decribed as the Heart of Creation, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the realm where the physical universe merges with the domains of spirit and imagination.. so is it a place? or a real perhaps? but then again, it maybe not.. it coud be a  a point of view. what is at hand is what one convey. one perceive it with their imperfect senses, and rather than go mad, one makes it comprehensible..  
 
all adaptation of, and each different version of the White Hot Room are true.. they are the pieces in the story.. the trunk, the leg and the body.. with Jean, she cycles through life and death as she discovers each of it pieces..  
 
one should not worry on how to make all the pieces work together.. it is not the point.. t he point is to examine each aspect, discover it to the extent of your understanding..  allow the Phoenix, the Force and the White Hot Room be metaphors..  allow them be meditations, and let them transcend the limits imposed on them..

#41 Posted by Tevnoba (3494 posts) - - Show Bio
@lord_oraculous016 said:
"

i remember a quote which goes "Vox populi, vox dei" which translates as "The voice of the people [is] the voice of God".. if the WPOTC is connected to the Primal Force of Life which is derived from the psyches of all living beings in the Multiverse, then her existence, her actions, and the scope of her power are all willed and ordered by "He who is Above All", making her second only to him and below to none.. i know there are no solid facts to my claims but i applied simple logic to the idea.. any person of intelligence would approve of this analogy, but the acceptance of the idea if beyond my conclusions and lies solely to the persons beliefs..  the Phoenix is such a profound being.. so complex and yet so simple.. with it i remember a certain story..  
 
have you ever heard  about a story where 3 blind men were asked to describe a certain object? each one was given a piece of that object  and decides, based on his own information, what the object is..One man said it was a snake, the other a tree and the other a drum.. but then, they were all wrong.. the object was an elephant.. they tried their best and their  guesses are good, which are based on their experiences and the range of their ability to perceive that certai object.. but then they can't see the whole and that apparently worked against them.. 
 
The idea of the Phoenix works the same.. it's a person, it's a power, It's a force, it's something that only Jean can make the most of..  it is not something that anyone can utilize and understand.. they say its the pool of unborn life, the very passion of creation or something which is beyond reality.. 
 
all those ideas could be right, but then they could also be wrong.. the Phoenix is an idea of such vast concept.. but one thing is clear.. the Phoenix is life.. b ut then what makes something alive? can someone define a living being? can one define all living things? life is said to be synonymous to passion and chaos.. all the things the Phoenix embodies.. in Marvel, isn't the universe alive? are all cosmic entities such as Eternity and Infinity alive? they themselves possess c onsciousness.. even the living tribunal possess one as well right? if if yes that makes him alive, yes? so does that mean each of them possess the fragment of the phoenix? yes? but then no..  
 
what is the White Hot Room? ity was decribed as the Heart of Creation, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the realm where the physical universe merges with the domains of spirit and imagination.. so is it a place? or a real perhaps? but then again, it maybe not.. it coud be a  a point of view. what is at hand is what one convey. one perceive it with their imperfect senses, and rather than go mad, one makes it comprehensible..  
 
all adaptation of, and each different version of the White Hot Room are true.. they are the pieces in the story.. the trunk, the leg and the body.. with Jean, she cycles through life and death as she discovers each of it pieces..  
 
one should not worry on how to make all the pieces work together.. it is not the point.. t he point is to examine each aspect, discover it to the extent of your understanding..  allow the Phoenix, the Force and the White Hot Room be metaphors..  allow them be meditations, and let them transcend the limits imposed on them..

"
All very nice and decently orated.  However, LT is not part of the multiverse - he is the balancing factor between all of the cosmic abstracts, the final arbitrator and judge.  LT and the other abstracts are not "alive" in the sense the the Phoenix is the sum of life, so no they are not part of her.  She is bellow LT and always will be.  She is not second to TOAA, at best she is third, but I still would not give her that much credit.
 
There are a number of realms that fit the description of the White Hot Room, those being outside of reality - Atelza's Domain, Death's Domain, Dimension of Manifestations, The Crystal Palace and the Crossroads to name a few.  None of them are part of the Multiverse, but they are all connected to it, just like the White Hot Room.
#42 Posted by Nemesis_ZR1 (31 posts) - - Show Bio

I will stand by Phoenix(Jean Grey) all the way.

Phoenix FTW!!!!!

#43 Posted by Red_Blade (2441 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tevnoba said:
" LT with ease. "
#44 Posted by xan84 (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

LT blinks ..
#45 Posted by Hellos (8914 posts) - - Show Bio

 

Not sure about the blinking, he was going to need to wreck a few universes just to wrestle the IG out of someones hand.  
He can do it though, it would be just a devastating act to the multiverse. :P

#46 Posted by xan84 (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@Hellos said:
"

 

Not sure about the blinking, he was going to need to wreck a few universes just to wrestle the IG out of someones hand.  
He can do it though, it would be just a devastating act to the multiverse. :P

"

He could just BFR her somehow. No need to destroy all life in the universe to take her out ..
#47 Posted by Hellos (8914 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xan said:
"@Hellos said:
"

 

Not sure about the blinking, he was going to need to wreck a few universes just to wrestle the IG out of someones hand.  
He can do it though, it would be just a devastating act to the multiverse. :P

"
He could just BFR her somehow. No need to destroy all life in the universe to take her out .. "

That wasn't an option for the IG so I don't see how it would be now for someone that should be higher than that on the cosmic latter. If he does bust her, so does the future of every living creature go poof.
 
When the thing was heading straight to Earth for Jean LT just said no no no not yet, not destroy it. It's not like morals apply, he should be her superior since he reports to the big man upstairs.  
I would have no doubt of him winning if he needed to, but the cost will be great certianly not a blinking effort. Both should be multiversal pew pewers.
#48 Posted by xan84 (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@Hellos said:
"@Xan said:
"@Hellos said:
"

 

Not sure about the blinking, he was going to need to wreck a few universes just to wrestle the IG out of someones hand.  
He can do it though, it would be just a devastating act to the multiverse. :P

"
He could just BFR her somehow. No need to destroy all life in the universe to take her out .. "
That wasn't an option for the IG so I don't see how it would be now for someone that should be higher than that on the cosmic latter. If he does bust her, so does the future of every living creature go poof. When the thing was heading straight to Earth for Jean LT just said no no no not yet, not destroy it. It's not like morals apply, he should be her superior since he reports to the big man upstairs.  I would have no doubt of him winning if he needed to, but the cost will be great certianly not a blinking effort. Both should be multiversal pew pewers. "

Perhaps it was not a option to just BFR him ? Perhaps the danger to just BFR him was to great etc. I realy don't know but this does not mean he can't do it (but yes we can't say he can when he never showed the ability to do it). 
 
After he destroyes her he could recreate the universe and the phoenix force. 
 
PS i never said the speed of that blink, he could blink realy realy slow for about 100 years :P
#49 Posted by Hellos (8914 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xan said:
"Perhaps it was not a option to just BFR him ? Perhaps the danger to just BFR him was to great etc. I realy don't know but this does not mean he can't do it (but yes we can't say he can when he never showed the ability to do it).  After he destroyes her he could recreate the universe and the phoenix force.  PS i never said the speed of that blink, he could blink realy realy slow for about 100 years :P "

I am not sure if LT can but TOAA should be able to wouldn't be very omnipotent if he couldn't, if the Phoenix force under Jean's control got to wild, I am sure the TOAA would send his right man to take her down.
I am not sure LT can even blink, does he have eye lids? I know he has a few faces but they always seem shinning.
#50 Posted by xan84 (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@Hellos said:
"@Xan said:
"Perhaps it was not a option to just BFR him ? Perhaps the danger to just BFR him was to great etc. I realy don't know but this does not mean he can't do it (but yes we can't say he can when he never showed the ability to do it).  After he destroyes her he could recreate the universe and the phoenix force.  PS i never said the speed of that blink, he could blink realy realy slow for about 100 years :P "
I am not sure if LT can but TOAA should be able to wouldn't be very omnipotent if he couldn't, if the Phoenix force under Jean's control got to wild, I am sure the TOAA would send his right man to take her down.I am not sure LT can even blink, does he have eye lids? I know he has a few faces but they always seem shinning. "

He is near omnipotent, i am sure he could make some if he realy whanted to ... Yes, yes just so he could blink and show us how bad ass he realy is.