I swear this has been done? I'll go with the combined might of the Archanges. I believe either one will be a decent battle on their own, combined, they'll subdue the LT.
I have never seen low end feats or jobbing from the two Archs, but Living Tribunal in spite of his omnipotence has indeed displayed low end feats. I'm going to say the archs win for now.
Against one of them, possibly, but not both. The two eventually overwhelm him.
@Fragneto said:
I have never seen low end feats or jobbing from the two Archs, but Living Tribunal in spite of his omnipotence has indeed displayed low end feats. I'm going to say the archs win for now.
@Assman said:
I swear this has been done? I'll go with the combined might of the Archanges. I believe either one will be a decent battle on their own, combined, they'll subdue the LT.
NO chance in hell. It has been done numerous times. LT wins. I'll just say one thing. Both Michael and Lucifer created universe with effort. LT created the universe out of Silver Surfer (out of living being) with flick of his finger. And when Michael or Lucifer have universe busting feats than we will talk about possibility for them to win.
Lucy and Mike might be 2md and 3rd (or in different order) most powerful beings in Vertigo. But in DC they are not. One example of that is Synnar. He is more powerful than both, and actually Mike and Lucy creating universe was retconned into Synnar creating the first DC universe.
Even in Vertigo Lucy has troubles with Asgardian gods.
Against one of them, possibly, but not both. The two eventually overwhelm him.
@Fragneto said:
I have never seen low end feats or jobbing from the two Archs, but Living Tribunal in spite of his omnipotence has indeed displayed low end feats. I'm going to say the archs win for now.
@Assman said:
I swear this has been done? I'll go with the combined might of the Archanges. I believe either one will be a decent battle on their own, combined, they'll subdue the LT.
NO chance in hell. It has been done numerous times. LT wins. I'll just say one thing. Both Michael and Lucifer created universe with effort. LT created the universe out of Silver Surfer (out of living being) with flick of his finger. And when Michael or Lucifer have universe busting feats than we will talk about possibility for them to win. Lucy and Mike might be 2md and 3rd (or in different order) most powerful beings in Vertigo. But in DC they are not. One example of that is Synnar. He is more powerful than both, and actually Mike and Lucy creating universe was retconned into Synnar creating the first DC universe. Even in Vertigo Lucy has troubles with Asgardian gods.
Honestly, this is a stalemate. LT can't destroy Lucifer. He's shown he can simply reform from reality busting attacks. Michael can keep regenerating. This can be seen in Lucifer #15. He can regenerate even after his energy his expelled. The only reason he didn't come back in "The Wolf Beneath the Tree" is because Elaine acted like a sponge and absorbed all of his power. I don't know if LT could absorb Yahweh's power seeing as though Elaine was only able to do so because she was Michael daughter. And, I don't think the twins van muster enough energy to destroy LT, so I will just leave it at a reasonable stalemate. And, I don't ever recall them having to use effort to create a universe. It's second nature to them(well, Lucifer since he's the one who crafts it) and they never(to my recollection) mentioned being tired after doing it or having trouble doing it. Lucifer created a multiverse without much trouble as well. Also, what asgardian God does Lucifer have trouble with? Are you referring to the Titans that pretty much took control after Yahweh left and essentially became the Presensce at the time? The day the brothers have trouble creating a(n) universe/multiverse, the Flash has trouble running, Superman has trouble flying, and Aquaman has trouble swimming.
@Jeronimo
said:
I say LT!!! Yeah, Mike and Lucy are an epic team but LT has 3(maybe4) faces. Each individual face could deal with MD or LM individually. 3 faces>>>2 characters Plus, Lucy and Mike are limited to using magic. LT is not.
I don't think the amount of faces matters, he's still one being(albeit extremely powerful.) The faces won't just break apart and attack the brothers, they will attack as one entity, the LT. And Lucifer and Michael are not limited to magic, although has shown himself capable of using it.
@thefallenone: when was the Tribunal universe busting? I am not stating that he can not do so but I don't remember him ever doing do. I only bring this up because you question the brothers ability to do so. If the LT has done this before (which I'm pretty sure he can) please give some scans or issue number. If he hasn't your point it moot.
possible I would say. He was actually the Presence first creation & was the one that created DC Multverse for presence...I beleive when hewaged war against Heaven EVERYONE was needed to stop him(spectre/Michael & entire heavenly host)
Also there's no doubt LT wins this, the brothers simple don't have enough to overcome LT...
possible I would say. He was actually the Presence first creation & was the one that created DC Multverse for presence...I beleive when hewaged war against Heaven EVERYONE was needed to stop him(spectre/Michael & entire heavenly host) Also there's no doubt LT wins this, the brothers simple don't have enough to overcome LT...
possible I would say. He was actually the Presence first creation & was the one that created DC Multverse for presence...I beleive when hewaged war against Heaven EVERYONE was needed to stop him(spectre/Michael & entire heavenly host) Also there's no doubt LT wins this, the brothers simple don't have enough to overcome LT...
And the LT can't destroy/overcome them either.
sure he can...he's much above either & would destroy both
possible I would say. He was actually the Presence first creation & was the one that created DC Multverse for presence...I beleive when hewaged war against Heaven EVERYONE was needed to stop him(spectre/Michael & entire heavenly host) Also there's no doubt LT wins this, the brothers simple don't have enough to overcome LT...
And the LT can't destroy/overcome them either.
sure he can...he's much above either & would destroy both
Not really. The brothers and the LT share the same roles(in their respective realities) and neither the brothers nor LT can destroy the other LT would have to be TOAA to destroy them, which he isn't.
Lucifer and Michael both can die. Lucifer had troubles with Fenris. Not to mention Japanese gods (he had to trick them). Also Lucifer and Michael only created the original universe of DC. First DC multiverse was created by failed experiment of Krona.
Lucifer never created the multiverse (that was wirter's error). He only created one realm/universe. But that's when he had Michael's powers.
And for what "?" , you wanted to reminf me to reply to you or somehting else ?
possible I would say. He was actually the Presence first creation & was the one that created DC Multverse for presence...I beleive when hewaged war against Heaven EVERYONE was needed to stop him(spectre/Michael & entire heavenly host) Also there's no doubt LT wins this, the brothers simple don't have enough to overcome LT...
And the LT can't destroy/overcome them either.
sure he can...he's much above either & would destroy both
Not really. The brothers and the LT share the same roles(in their respective realities) and neither the brothers nor LT can destroy the other LT would have to be TOAA to destroy them, which he isn't.
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
I don't where you get that form Lucifer and Michael are right below the Presence, how are they not omniversal?
I could just as easily say LT is only mutiversal whereas Lucifer and Michael are omniversal I have a feeling that you've never read the Lucifer series...mutiverses to Lucifer and Michael are like grains of sand
Lucifer and Michael both can die. Lucifer had troubles with Fenris. Not to mention Japanese gods (he had to trick them). Also Lucifer and Michael only created the original universe of DC. First DC multiverse was created by failed experiment of Krona. Lucifer never created the multiverse (that was wirter's error). He only created one realm/universe. But that's when he had Michael's powers. And for what "?" , you wanted to reminf me to reply to you or somehting else ?
The only time I can remember Lucifer dying was when his own power was used against him(when one of the Gods kept two of Lucifer's feathers, disrupting the flow of his power.) He had to trick the Japanese Gods because he gave up his powers a long time ago. So, at the point in time where he had to trick them, he was powerless yet took down gods. In Vertigo continuity, they (the brothers) created everything, not Krona. Lucifer didn't create THE multiverse in DC mainstream, but in Vertigo he did. And he states to Mazikeen it's a universe. He crafted it from the energy Michael created, but he used his own power to actually craft it. He can't create something from nothing(he can't create a multiverse from one universe, but if he has all the material there, he can do it.) And, I was looking in my inbox because it was glitching and not showing me any replies or messages, and I saw you never answered :)
possible I would say. He was actually the Presence first creation & was the one that created DC Multverse for presence...I beleive when hewaged war against Heaven EVERYONE was needed to stop him(spectre/Michael & entire heavenly host) Also there's no doubt LT wins this, the brothers simple don't have enough to overcome LT...
And the LT can't destroy/overcome them either.
sure he can...he's much above either & would destroy both
Not really. The brothers and the LT share the same roles(in their respective realities) and neither the brothers nor LT can destroy the other LT would have to be TOAA to destroy them, which he isn't.
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
All in all, the concept of a industry specific multiverse is quite contradictory in regards to the ACTUAL definition of it. I can accept limitless universes, but to try and call it an omniverse when Marvel and DC universes are separate doesn't make much sense. Besides, Michael released limitless energy. Lucifer(assuming he used all of the energy available) can also create limitless universes. Lucifer's only limited to the amount he's given. After that, he can do whatever he wants.
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
I don't where you get that form Lucifer and Michael are right below the Presence, how are they not omniversal? I could just as easily say LT is only mutiversal whereas Lucifer and Michael are omniversal I have a feeling that you've never read the Lucifer series...mutiverses to Lucifer and Michael are like grains of sand
You realize Presence is'nt Omniversal also right? No you could'nt, unless you wanna go completely against Continuity & just start makein things up as you go, lol.
You really have no clue here &understand why you think brothers have chance, but they really REALLY don't..
Lucifer and Michael both can die. Lucifer had troubles with Fenris. Not to mention Japanese gods (he had to trick them). Also Lucifer and Michael only created the original universe of DC. First DC multiverse was created by failed experiment of Krona. Lucifer never created the multiverse (that was wirter's error). He only created one realm/universe. But that's when he had Michael's powers. And for what "?" , you wanted to reminf me to reply to you or somehting else ?
The only time I can remember Lucifer dying was when his own power was used against him. He had to trick the Japanese Gods because he gave up his powers a long time ago. So, at the point in time where he had to trick them, he was powerless yet took down gods. In Vertigo continuity, they (the brothers) created everything, not Krona. Lucifer didn't create THE multiverse in DC mainstream, but in Vertigo he did. And he states to Mazikeen it's a universe. He crafted it from the energy Michael created, but he used his own power to actually craft it. He can't create something from nothing(he can't create a multiverse from one universe, but if he has all the material there, he can do it.) And, I was looking in my inbox because it was glitching and not showing me any replies or messages, and I saw you never answered :)
As far as i know Vertigo only has universe which is actually the main DC universe + some elements that aren't canon to main DC continuity. Even if it isn't main DC it's just one universe. Works History of Violence, V for Vendetta, Watchmen and 100 Bullets are totaly independent works to each other and to other Vertigo anf DC works. Those are independent stories which were just published by Vertigo and have never been stated to have any connection to continuity of Constantine, Sandman Swap Thing, Lucifer or DC Multiverse.
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
I don't where you get that form Lucifer and Michael are right below the Presence, how are they not omniversal? I could just as easily say LT is only mutiversal whereas Lucifer and Michael are omniversal I have a feeling that you've never read the Lucifer series...mutiverses to Lucifer and Michael are like grains of sand
You realize Presence is'nt Omniversal also right? No you could'nt, unless you wanna go completely against Continuity & just start makein things up as you go, lol. You really have no clue here &understand why you think brothers have chance, but they really REALLY don't..
Actually, it is. DCU was once full of limitless realities(an omniverse.) But then the Crisis event took place.
Lucifer and Michael both can die. Lucifer had troubles with Fenris. Not to mention Japanese gods (he had to trick them). Also Lucifer and Michael only created the original universe of DC. First DC multiverse was created by failed experiment of Krona. Lucifer never created the multiverse (that was wirter's error). He only created one realm/universe. But that's when he had Michael's powers. And for what "?" , you wanted to reminf me to reply to you or somehting else ?
The only time I can remember Lucifer dying was when his own power was used against him. He had to trick the Japanese Gods because he gave up his powers a long time ago. So, at the point in time where he had to trick them, he was powerless yet took down gods. In Vertigo continuity, they (the brothers) created everything, not Krona. Lucifer didn't create THE multiverse in DC mainstream, but in Vertigo he did. And he states to Mazikeen it's a universe. He crafted it from the energy Michael created, but he used his own power to actually craft it. He can't create something from nothing(he can't create a multiverse from one universe, but if he has all the material there, he can do it.) And, I was looking in my inbox because it was glitching and not showing me any replies or messages, and I saw you never answered :)
As far as i know Vertigo only has universe which is actually the main DC universe + some elements that aren't canon to main DC continuity. Even if it isn't main DC it's just one universe. Works History of Violence, V for Vendetta, Watchmen and 100 Bullets are totaly independent works to each other and to other Vertigo anf DC works. Those are independent stories which were just published by Vertigo and have never been stated to have any connection to continuity of Constantine, Sandman Swap Thing, Lucifer or DC Multiverse.
Alright, let's make this a little easier and say in Lucifer and Michael's reality. Oddly, everytime you reply to me it doesn't show up.
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
I don't where you get that form Lucifer and Michael are right below the Presence, how are they not omniversal? I could just as easily say LT is only mutiversal whereas Lucifer and Michael are omniversal I have a feeling that you've never read the Lucifer series...mutiverses to Lucifer and Michael are like grains of sand
You realize Presence is'nt Omniversal also right? No you could'nt, unless you wanna go completely against Continuity & just start makein things up as you go, lol. You really have no clue here &understand why you think brothers have chance, but they really REALLY don't..
Actually, it is.
This right here shows why your off on this matter... Presence is simple a Supreme Multiversal Being! That's it! & Michael & Lucifer where given Multiversal Power
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
I don't where you get that form Lucifer and Michael are right below the Presence, how are they not omniversal? I could just as easily say LT is only mutiversal whereas Lucifer and Michael are omniversal I have a feeling that you've never read the Lucifer series...mutiverses to Lucifer and Michael are like grains of sand
You realize Presence is'nt Omniversal also right? No you could'nt, unless you wanna go completely against Continuity & just start makein things up as you go, lol. You really have no clue here &understand why you think brothers have chance, but they really REALLY don't..
the Presence isn't omniversal? good luck with that argument...
The Lucifer series doesn't concern only a universe or a multiverse for crying out loud have you guys actually read it? it concerns countless realities, all universes in existence and all universes that ever did or will exist
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
I don't where you get that form Lucifer and Michael are right below the Presence, how are they not omniversal? I could just as easily say LT is only mutiversal whereas Lucifer and Michael are omniversal I have a feeling that you've never read the Lucifer series...mutiverses to Lucifer and Michael are like grains of sand
You realize Presence is'nt Omniversal also right? No you could'nt, unless you wanna go completely against Continuity & just start makein things up as you go, lol. You really have no clue here &understand why you think brothers have chance, but they really REALLY don't..
Actually, it is.
This right here shows why your off on this matter... Presence is simple a Supreme Multiversal Being! That's it! & Michael & Lucifer where given Multiversal Power
Have you ever read Crisis on INFINITE(key word, here) Earths? The Presensce created an "omniverse"(if such a thing can exist) but this was eventually shortened to a multiverse.
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
I don't where you get that form Lucifer and Michael are right below the Presence, how are they not omniversal? I could just as easily say LT is only mutiversal whereas Lucifer and Michael are omniversal I have a feeling that you've never read the Lucifer series...mutiverses to Lucifer and Michael are like grains of sand
You realize Presence is'nt Omniversal also right? No you could'nt, unless you wanna go completely against Continuity & just start makein things up as you go, lol. You really have no clue here &understand why you think brothers have chance, but they really REALLY don't..
the Presence isn't omniversal? good luck with that argument...
The Lucifer series doesn't occur in only one universe for crying out loud have you guys actually read it? it concerns countless realities, all universes in existence and all universes that ever did or will exist
The Presence in Lucifer is truly omniversal
LOL, no luck needed, all have to do is point to Final Crisis.So yea, try again...
Alright, let's make this a little easier and say in Lucifer and Michael's reality. Oddly, everytime you reply to me it doesn't show up.
@OblivionKnight said:
@recordkeeper said:
@m0ntyb0y said:
@recordkeeper said:
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
I don't where you get that form Lucifer and Michael are right below the Presence, how are they not omniversal? I could just as easily say LT is only mutiversal whereas Lucifer and Michael are omniversal I have a feeling that you've never read the Lucifer series...mutiverses to Lucifer and Michael are like grains of sand
You realize Presence is'nt Omniversal also right? No you could'nt, unless you wanna go completely against Continuity & just start makein things up as you go, lol. You really have no clue here &understand why you think brothers have chance, but they really REALLY don't..
Actually, it is. DCU was once full of limitless realities(an omniverse.) But then the Crisis event took place.
Actually DC never had the omniverse. It just had multiverse. Vertigo is part of that multiverse. Not to mention that Lucifer and Michael's reality is actually main DC universe + some additional realms which are part of DC main universe (Asgardian realm, Japanese gods realm).
I have the same problem whne people reply to me. Not with quotes(that's the reason i always quote).
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
I don't where you get that form Lucifer and Michael are right below the Presence, how are they not omniversal? I could just as easily say LT is only mutiversal whereas Lucifer and Michael are omniversal I have a feeling that you've never read the Lucifer series...mutiverses to Lucifer and Michael are like grains of sand
You realize Presence is'nt Omniversal also right? No you could'nt, unless you wanna go completely against Continuity & just start makein things up as you go, lol. You really have no clue here &understand why you think brothers have chance, but they really REALLY don't..
Actually, it is.
This right here shows why your off on this matter... Presence is simple a Supreme Multiversal Being! That's it! & Michael & Lucifer where given Multiversal Power
Have you ever read Crisis on INFINITE(key word, here) Earths? The Presensce created an "omniverse"(if such a thing can exist) but this was eventually shortened to a multiverse.
Yes I have! That again was ONLY ONE MULTIVERSE! Still not dealing w/Omniverse You realize Marvel has stated SEVERAL TIMES also that the main Marvel Muliverse has INFINITE earths/Universes?!
LOL, no luck needed, all have to do is point to Final Crisis.So yea, try again... Lucifer was NEVER a Omniversal Power
translation: "I haven't read Lucifer, therefore I know nothing about the characters in Lucifer" why are you talking about Final Crisis? here's an idea...to understand Lucifer and the Presence in Lucifer, read Lucifer...
@OblivionKnight:
well I suppose a multiverse is a finite number of universes whereas an omniverse is an infinite and all encompassing number of universes
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
I don't where you get that form Lucifer and Michael are right below the Presence, how are they not omniversal? I could just as easily say LT is only mutiversal whereas Lucifer and Michael are omniversal I have a feeling that you've never read the Lucifer series...mutiverses to Lucifer and Michael are like grains of sand
You realize Presence is'nt Omniversal also right? No you could'nt, unless you wanna go completely against Continuity & just start makein things up as you go, lol. You really have no clue here &understand why you think brothers have chance, but they really REALLY don't..
the Presence isn't omniversal? good luck with that argument...
The Lucifer series doesn't occur in only one universe for crying out loud have you guys actually read it? it concerns countless realities, all universes in existence and all universes that ever did or will exist
The Presence in Lucifer is truly omniversal
LOL, no luck needed, all have to do is point to Final Crisis.So yea, try again... Lucifer was NEVER a Omniversal Power
Actually you may be right. The only reason I say so is because, at one point, he, Elaine, and some others fold together Yahweh's Lucifer's and Elaine's creations into one, implying they may have had an end. But,if Michael DID in fact release an infinite supply of energy, Lucifer more than likely constructed it into an omniverse. It can go either way really, but for now it's 100% sure he has multiversal power and it's within his power to actually create an omniverse. Also, Lucifer is from a different reality than the Final Crisis thing. The Presensce, however, should be present in all realities that exist. It's sad we here talk of the Presensce from more than one being but we hear of the Overmonitor from only one(to my recollection of Final Crisis.)
LOL, no luck needed, all have to do is point to Final Crisis.So yea, try again... Lucifer was NEVER a Omniversal Power
translation: "I haven't read Lucifer, therefore I know nothing about the characters in Lucifer" why are you talking about Final Crisis? here's an idea...to understand The Presence in Lucifer, read Lucifer...
@OblivionKnight:
well I suppose a multiverse is a finite number of universes whereas an omniverse is an infinite and all encompassing number of universes
actually by Marvel terms multiverse = infinite number of universes. That's even how first DC multiverse was organised. Only fiction to have omniverse is Marvel. And by their handbook(from 2004) omniverse was stated to be collection of every fiction and fictional universe which exist in the world. This includes DC, Image, Popey, harry Potter ...
All universes that were, that are and that will be are just part of the multiverse. Best example of that is Marvel. Since main Multiverse has such properties. Anyway when has Lucifer visited all realities that are, that were and that woudl be ????
LOL, no luck needed, all have to do is point to Final Crisis.So yea, try again... Lucifer was NEVER a Omniversal Power
translation: "I haven't read Lucifer, therefore I know nothing about the characters in Lucifer" why are you talking about Final Crisis? here's an idea...to understand The Presence in Lucifer, read Lucifer...
@OblivionKnight:
well I suppose a multiverse is a finite number of universes whereas an omniverse is an infinite and all encompassing number of universes
Yep. And the Presensce in Lucifer states that there is a being higher than him: the authors. Given Elaine's powers being Michael's and Lucifer's, the Presensce is truly omnipotent and whatnot(disregarding the authors, who make him so.)
Michael releaseing ALL his energy & Lucifer manipulateing it to create Multiverse NO DOUBT ALSO Proves they are only Mltiversal Powers. This proves without doubt what there TOP level is...
seems like people confuse Michael & Lucifer with there real life counter parts & refuse to except them loseing to anyone, but this is A COMIC BOOK & NOT SAME CHARACTERS, lol..
but nothing explicitly has been stated on the subject
whatever the case, Infinite Crisis really has no bearing on Lucifer, Vertigo's Lucifer is almost as separate from DC as Marvel is
to determine whether Lucifer is omniversal, the best way is to read the dang comic
@recordkeeper said:
Michael releaseing ALL his energy & Lucifer manipulateing it to create Multiverse NO DOUBT ALSO Proves they are only Mltiversal Powers. This proves without doubt what there TOP level is... seems like people confuse Michael & Lucifer with there real life counter parts & refuse to except them loseing to anyone, but this is A COMIC BOOK & NOT SAME CHARACTERS, lol..
my question still stands, have you actually read the comic?
Alright, let's make this a little easier and say in Lucifer and Michael's reality. Oddly, everytime you reply to me it doesn't show up.
@OblivionKnight said:
@recordkeeper said:
@m0ntyb0y said:
@recordkeeper said:
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
I don't where you get that form Lucifer and Michael are right below the Presence, how are they not omniversal? I could just as easily say LT is only mutiversal whereas Lucifer and Michael are omniversal I have a feeling that you've never read the Lucifer series...mutiverses to Lucifer and Michael are like grains of sand
You realize Presence is'nt Omniversal also right? No you could'nt, unless you wanna go completely against Continuity & just start makein things up as you go, lol. You really have no clue here &understand why you think brothers have chance, but they really REALLY don't..
Actually, it is. DCU was once full of limitless realities(an omniverse.) But then the Crisis event took place.
Actually DC never had the omniverse. It just had multiverse. Vertigo is part of that multiverse. Not to mention that Lucifer and Michael's reality is actually main DC universe + some additional realms which are part of DC main universe (Asgardian realm, Japanese gods realm). I have the same problem whne people reply to me. Not with quotes(that's the reason i always quote).
IIRC, Krona created an infinite number of universes which eventually turned into a multiverse. This was before the giant reboot. Lucifer and Michael's reality doesn't seem to really be a part of DC Universe, seeing as the backstories differ greatly between the origins of each reality. However, this COULD imply that Elaine is now the Presensce. @TheFallenOne said:
@m0ntyb0y said:
@recordkeeper said:
LOL, no luck needed, all have to do is point to Final Crisis.So yea, try again... Lucifer was NEVER a Omniversal Power
translation: "I haven't read Lucifer, therefore I know nothing about the characters in Lucifer" why are you talking about Final Crisis? here's an idea...to understand The Presence in Lucifer, read Lucifer...
@OblivionKnight:
well I suppose a multiverse is a finite number of universes whereas an omniverse is an infinite and all encompassing number of universes
actually by Marvel terms multiverse = infinite number of universes. That's even how first DC multiverse was organised. Only fiction to have omniverse is Marvel. And by their handbook(from 2004) omniverse was stated to be collection of every fiction and fictional universe which exist in the world. This includes DC, Image, Popey, harry Potter ... All universes that were, that are and that will be are just part of the multiverse. Best example of that is Marvel. Since main Multiverse has such properties. Anyway when has Lucifer visited all realities that are, that were and that woudl be ????
I don't think he was referring to Lucifer being omnipresent but the Presensce. And it's extremely hard to bring Marvel terms into DC. Because, if Marvel says their totality includes DC, but DC never implies such a thing there's a conflict.They are separate. Marvel says one thing, DC says another(or, doesn't, in this case.)
Michael releaseing ALL his energy & Lucifer manipulateing it to create Multiverse NO DOUBT ALSO Proves they are only Mltiversal Powers. This proves without doubt what there TOP level is... seems like people confuse Michael & Lucifer with there real life counter parts & refuse to except them loseing to anyone, but this is A COMIC BOOK & NOT SAME CHARACTERS, lol..
Honestly, if he has an infinite amount of energy with him, Lucifer can create an infinite amount of universes. This leads me to believe Michael may not have released ALL of his energy, but just some. And, despite ANY of this, LT can't take down the brothers and the brothers can't take him down. It's a stalemate.
Alright, let's make this a little easier and say in Lucifer and Michael's reality. Oddly, everytime you reply to me it doesn't show up.
@OblivionKnight said:
@recordkeeper said:
@m0ntyb0y said:
@recordkeeper said:
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
I don't where you get that form Lucifer and Michael are right below the Presence, how are they not omniversal? I could just as easily say LT is only mutiversal whereas Lucifer and Michael are omniversal I have a feeling that you've never read the Lucifer series...mutiverses to Lucifer and Michael are like grains of sand
You realize Presence is'nt Omniversal also right? No you could'nt, unless you wanna go completely against Continuity & just start makein things up as you go, lol. You really have no clue here &understand why you think brothers have chance, but they really REALLY don't..
Actually, it is. DCU was once full of limitless realities(an omniverse.) But then the Crisis event took place.
Actually DC never had the omniverse. It just had multiverse. Vertigo is part of that multiverse. Not to mention that Lucifer and Michael's reality is actually main DC universe + some additional realms which are part of DC main universe (Asgardian realm, Japanese gods realm). I have the same problem whne people reply to me. Not with quotes(that's the reason i always quote).
IIRC, Krona created an infinite number of universes which eventually turned into a multiverse. This was before the giant reboot. Lucifer and Michael's reality doesn't seem to really be a part of DC Universe, seeing as the backstories differ greatly between the origins of each reality. However, this COULD imply that Elaine is now the Presensce. @TheFallenOne said:
@m0ntyb0y said:
@recordkeeper said:
LOL, no luck needed, all have to do is point to Final Crisis.So yea, try again... Lucifer was NEVER a Omniversal Power
translation: "I haven't read Lucifer, therefore I know nothing about the characters in Lucifer" why are you talking about Final Crisis? here's an idea...to understand The Presence in Lucifer, read Lucifer...
@OblivionKnight:
well I suppose a multiverse is a finite number of universes whereas an omniverse is an infinite and all encompassing number of universes
actually by Marvel terms multiverse = infinite number of universes. That's even how first DC multiverse was organised. Only fiction to have omniverse is Marvel. And by their handbook(from 2004) omniverse was stated to be collection of every fiction and fictional universe which exist in the world. This includes DC, Image, Popey, harry Potter ... All universes that were, that are and that will be are just part of the multiverse. Best example of that is Marvel. Since main Multiverse has such properties. Anyway when has Lucifer visited all realities that are, that were and that woudl be ????
I don't think he was referring to Lucifer being omnipresent but the Presensce. And it's extremely hard to bring Marvel terms into DC. Because, if Marvel says their totality includes DC, but DC never implies such a thing there's a conflict.They are separate. Marvel says one thing, DC says another(or, doesn't, in this case.)
Don't know to what you refer as giant reboot. Krona's failed experiment resulting in creation of first DC multiverse it's officiall. Read History of DC Multiverse if you don't belive me (there were scans of that in Superman respect thread on KMC but unfortunatelly all links are now dead). Only giant reboot happened so far is that Synnar created first DC universe and not Lucifer and Michael.
Alright, let's make this a little easier and say in Lucifer and Michael's reality. Oddly, everytime you reply to me it doesn't show up.
@OblivionKnight said:
@recordkeeper said:
@m0ntyb0y said:
@recordkeeper said:
No, they don't share the same roles AT ALL actual. LT is a OMNIVERSAL POWER, which neither the brothers are, there only Multiversal. So yea, like said, they die 10/10 pertty much withou doubt.
I don't where you get that form Lucifer and Michael are right below the Presence, how are they not omniversal? I could just as easily say LT is only mutiversal whereas Lucifer and Michael are omniversal I have a feeling that you've never read the Lucifer series...mutiverses to Lucifer and Michael are like grains of sand
You realize Presence is'nt Omniversal also right? No you could'nt, unless you wanna go completely against Continuity & just start makein things up as you go, lol. You really have no clue here &understand why you think brothers have chance, but they really REALLY don't..
Actually, it is. DCU was once full of limitless realities(an omniverse.) But then the Crisis event took place.
Actually DC never had the omniverse. It just had multiverse. Vertigo is part of that multiverse. Not to mention that Lucifer and Michael's reality is actually main DC universe + some additional realms which are part of DC main universe (Asgardian realm, Japanese gods realm). I have the same problem whne people reply to me. Not with quotes(that's the reason i always quote).
IIRC, Krona created an infinite number of universes which eventually turned into a multiverse. This was before the giant reboot. Lucifer and Michael's reality doesn't seem to really be a part of DC Universe, seeing as the backstories differ greatly between the origins of each reality. However, this COULD imply that Elaine is now the Presensce. @TheFallenOne said:
@m0ntyb0y said:
@recordkeeper said:
LOL, no luck needed, all have to do is point to Final Crisis.So yea, try again... Lucifer was NEVER a Omniversal Power
translation: "I haven't read Lucifer, therefore I know nothing about the characters in Lucifer" why are you talking about Final Crisis? here's an idea...to understand The Presence in Lucifer, read Lucifer...
@OblivionKnight:
well I suppose a multiverse is a finite number of universes whereas an omniverse is an infinite and all encompassing number of universes
actually by Marvel terms multiverse = infinite number of universes. That's even how first DC multiverse was organised. Only fiction to have omniverse is Marvel. And by their handbook(from 2004) omniverse was stated to be collection of every fiction and fictional universe which exist in the world. This includes DC, Image, Popey, harry Potter ... All universes that were, that are and that will be are just part of the multiverse. Best example of that is Marvel. Since main Multiverse has such properties. Anyway when has Lucifer visited all realities that are, that were and that woudl be ????
I don't think he was referring to Lucifer being omnipresent but the Presensce. And it's extremely hard to bring Marvel terms into DC. Because, if Marvel says their totality includes DC, but DC never implies such a thing there's a conflict.They are separate. Marvel says one thing, DC says another(or, doesn't, in this case.)
Don't know to what you refer as giant reboot. Krona's failed experiment resulting in creation of first DC multiverse it's officiall. Read History of DC Multiverse if you don't belive me (there were scans of that in Superman respect thread on KMC but unfortunatelly all links are now dead). Only giant reboot happened so far is that Synnar created first DC universe and not Lucifer and Michael.
Was referring to Crisis on Infinite Earths. And yeah, I know, but the multiverse was infinite. And Michael and Lucifer never had anything to do with the creation of DC Universe, but the creation of their reality(which is separate from mainstream.) And, I've never heard of this Synnar guy.
Synnar is very first creation of the Presence! He later created the Multiverse for the Presence...
Synnar created only universe. Even in scans you posted it confirms that he created the universe. First Multiverse was created by Krona's failed experiment. Second by Alex Luthor. Third was created when previous was reverted to universe, but that universe had immense energy so it made 51 replica of itself.
Synnar is very first creation of the Presence! He later created the Multiverse for the Presence...
Synnar created only universe. Even in scans you posted it confirms that he created the universe. First Multiverse was created by Krona's failed experiment. Second by Alex Luthor. Third was created when previous was reverted to universe, but that universe had immense energy so it made 51 replica of itself.
Is he a vertigo character or is he in DC main continuity?
@OblivionKnight: DC. But both Lucifer and Michael also belong to DC, we can't exlude that.
They belong to DC but Lucifer and Michael's reality is separate seeing as though creating the universe was their job first.
Fact is that they actually were responsible for creating the main DC universe. And this is suppose to be retconned now with Synnar (original Demiurge) doing that job. Anyway this Vertigo/ DC connection is totaly weird. About outcome of the fight.
Both brothers sometimes are stated as immortal and other times can die (Michael died and Lucy absorbed his power). Anyway it's debatable if they can become subjects of Death of the Endless or not really (since Lucy stated that death has no claim on him). Let's just say they are immortal. Still i give this match to LT since he has better feats than they have. And can overpower them. If we all agree that theya re immortal than he can't actually kill them since they can't become subjects of Death (from the Endless). And since that's Grim Reaper of their reality in order for them to be killed they must become subjects of Death from their reality.
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