Beyonder by definition was the embodiement of everything excluding their reality (616), so in that case the one who is the embodiement of every universe should have the upperhand powerwise, in which case it's the LT.
Math:
Beyonder = All realities - 616 (lets call this "B")
Beyonder by definition was the embodiement of everything excluding their reality (616), so in that case the one who is the embodiement of every universe should have the upperhand powerwise, in which case it's the LT.
It's quite the opposite, the beyonder was everything outside marvel multiverse, he was his own realm (which is a megaversed sized since the marvel multiverse was a droplet of water compared to it) and everything in which it exists, so overall he was the sumation of something much much much more than a single multiverse.
@justleader: I'd have to go back and read that line i'm thinkng of right now back then the whole alternate realites in marvel wasn't all that much sported i believe it wasn't even divided into 616 or something else.
@girugamesh: Quite true, from what i gathered LT seemed unsure whether he could beat Adam Warlock with the Infinity Gauntlet,, so decided not to engage him, Beyonder is beyond their power.
@girugamesh: Quite true, from what i gathered LT seemed unsure whether he could beat Adam Warlock with the Infinity Gauntlet,, so decided not to engage him, Beyonder is beyond their power.
Let's not get carried away, LT>>Adam or Thanos with the IG.
All the same yes, pre-retcon Beyonder is far too much.
@girugamesh: Quite true, from what i gathered LT seemed unsure whether he could beat Adam Warlock with the Infinity Gauntlet,, so decided not to engage him, Beyonder is beyond their power.
Let's not get carried away, LT>>Adam or Thanos with the IG.
All the same yes, pre-retcon Beyonder is far too much.
What do you mean get carried away? Read Warlock and the Infinity Watch and find out for yourself, LT said if him and Adam fought it would destroy everything and no one would win hence why he didnt think it was wise to fight him and Adam with IG >> Thanos with IG because Thanos just toys around Adam would not.
@girugamesh: Quite true, from what i gathered LT seemed unsure whether he could beat Adam Warlock with the Infinity Gauntlet,, so decided not to engage him, Beyonder is beyond their power.
Let's not get carried away, LT>>Adam or Thanos with the IG.
All the same yes, pre-retcon Beyonder is far too much.
What do you mean get carried away? Read Warlock and the Infinity Watch and find out for yourself, LT said if him and Adam fought it would destroy everything and no one would win hence why he didnt think it was wise to fight him and Adam with IG >> Thanos with IG because Thanos just toys around Adam would not.
"His judgement is obviously keeping the gems from working together."
The LT's power evidently dwarfs that of the gems, even together. As for "destroying everything", the LT stated that he simply would rather not destroy the dimension/plane of reality they were in to take it by force; there was no question that he wouldn't be able to do it though.
@girugamesh: Quite true, from what i gathered LT seemed unsure whether he could beat Adam Warlock with the Infinity Gauntlet,, so decided not to engage him, Beyonder is beyond their power.
Let's not get carried away, LT>>Adam or Thanos with the IG.
All the same yes, pre-retcon Beyonder is far too much.
What do you mean get carried away? Read Warlock and the Infinity Watch and find out for yourself, LT said if him and Adam fought it would destroy everything and no one would win hence why he didnt think it was wise to fight him and Adam with IG >> Thanos with IG because Thanos just toys around Adam would not.
"His judgement is obviously keeping the gems from working together."
The LT's power evidently dwarfs that of the gems, even together. As for "destroying everything", the LT stated that he simply would rather not destroy the dimension/plane of reality they were in to take it by force; there was no question that he wouldn't be able to do it though.
That is very misleading, why would it bother LT if he destroys everything if he supposedly has the power to put everything back, Adam explicitly asks him a rhetorical question to which LT just remains silent over not that there is no question whether he could really defeat him, i know the IG has been retconned now but back then it was the bomb.
@girugamesh: Quite true, from what i gathered LT seemed unsure whether he could beat Adam Warlock with the Infinity Gauntlet,, so decided not to engage him, Beyonder is beyond their power.
Let's not get carried away, LT>>Adam or Thanos with the IG.
All the same yes, pre-retcon Beyonder is far too much.
What do you mean get carried away? Read Warlock and the Infinity Watch and find out for yourself, LT said if him and Adam fought it would destroy everything and no one would win hence why he didnt think it was wise to fight him and Adam with IG >> Thanos with IG because Thanos just toys around Adam would not.
"His judgement is obviously keeping the gems from working together."
The LT's power evidently dwarfs that of the gems, even together. As for "destroying everything", the LT stated that he simply would rather not destroy the dimension/plane of reality they were in to take it by force; there was no question that he wouldn't be able to do it though.
That is very misleading, why would it bother LT if he destroys everything if he supposedly has the power to put everything back, Adam explicitly asks him a rhetorical question to which LT just remains silent over not that there is no question whether he could really defeat him, i know the IG has been retconned now but back then it was the bomb.
Because he's the supreme judge, he doesn't flippantly just blow up universes if there is no reason. And as I have shown before, the LT's power exceeds that of the gems.
funny how as soon as they begin their light show the abstracts start to breakdance,with The Watcher spining on the ground and Galactus showing his moves,nice battle we got here.
On the thread Beyonder was really strange to me,but I think LT can take,as if I remember the concept of TOAA and how LT works for him came after Beyonder so I would think that if TOAA backs LT like he always does,LT can win.
I've read every damned comic with LT and Beyonder in it dozens of times and I have no clue why people assume that LT is any less powerful than Beyonder. I always....i mean this...ALWAYS took each character being the right and left hand of TOAA. Brothers, absolute equals in every respect.
LT was the logical and level headed son and balance to most things. Beyonder was the rash, impulsive chaos that mirrored Living Tribunal. Do people assume The Living Tribunal was weaker than Beyonder due to Thanos absorbing him along with all of Marvel? He used the Heart of the Universe to do that, an object that clearly was a window into TOAA. It might have actually been part of him. TOAA > HOTU > LT = Beyonder > Infinity Gauntlet and similar objects. This is just my opinion.
I've read every damned comic with LT and Beyonder in it dozens of times and I have no clue why people assume that LT is any less powerful than Beyonder. I always....i mean this...ALWAYS took each character being the right and left hand of TOAA. Brothers, absolute equals in every respect.
LT was the logical and level headed son and balance to most things. Beyonder was the rash, impulsive chaos that mirrored Living Tribunal. Do people assume The Living Tribunal was weaker than Beyonder due to Thanos absorbing him along with all of Marvel? He used the Heart of the Universe to do that, an object that clearly was a window into TOAA. It might have actually been part of him. TOAA > HOTU > LT = Beyonder > Infinity Gauntlet and similar objects. This is just my opinion.
I've read every damned comic with LT and Beyonder in it dozens of times and I have no clue why people assume that LT is any less powerful than Beyonder. I always....i mean this...ALWAYS took each character being the right and left hand of TOAA. Brothers, absolute equals in every respect.
LT was the logical and level headed son and balance to most things. Beyonder was the rash, impulsive chaos that mirrored Living Tribunal. Do people assume The Living Tribunal was weaker than Beyonder due to Thanos absorbing him along with all of Marvel? He used the Heart of the Universe to do that, an object that clearly was a window into TOAA. It might have actually been part of him. TOAA > HOTU > LT = Beyonder > Infinity Gauntlet and similar objects. This is just my opinion.
Its a very intelligent way of looking at things, that's why. My only retorts is that LT has three faces to represent different aspects of his judgement, and where does the fulcrum fit in to all of this?
It was pretty clear to me that the Fulcrum was TOAA, a lot like Morgan Freeman when he played God in those two movies. Fulcrum is TOAAs physical manifestation and is, at least to me, clearly TOAA itself. I didn't mean any offense on my retort comment, I merely said it because anyone who supports either side has absolutely no basis for what they are saying and are only playing the favorites game. LT is the undisputed 2nd in command to TOAA, and Beyonder is the unofficial version of him with a bad attitude who really is a sad being that cannot see right from wrong. I assure you that LT is the older brother who experienced Beyonder wrecking a few billion universes and ended up playing the Maid card. Always secretly cleaning up his mess. No way LT would let Beyonder do that and get away with it, clearly they are siblings and LT cannot pass judgement on his brother. So, he lets him do what he wants and ends up fixing anything he breaks quietly when Beyonder isn't looking.
" beyonder??? i thought the living tribunal was the second after one above all. "
in currently ranks you would be right... but the Classic Beyonder was actually equal to The One Above All...
No one in marvel = TOAA. he can just use an eraser to make beyonder as if never existed. he can show in next comics that all that was a person's dream.
who can prove me that beyonder is equal or above TOAA
Beyonder equal or not to TOAA, that's not the right question, because there is no clue to make the comparison. but you can say that Beyonder was TOAA before creation or with more precise words, he was God before genesis, as the writer and ex Head of Marvel HQ said. Beyonder was TOAA before TOAA was established. moreover, according to Stan Lee PR Beyonder was TOAA of his own actuality, the purpose of his original existence was to explain the existence of the other comic companies and their own universal laws and structure with their own supreme beings.
so we can say that both PR Beyonder and TOAA are facets of the same supreme being ruling over Marvel Universe or that Beyonder is a supreme being of other reality (realities) than Marvel wich makes him equal to TOAA
If this is fight to death then LT wins because I never saw LT being damaged.
LT was beaten by Thanos when Thanos had the HOTU. but that was the power of the TOAA so that is understandable.
@LordOfAllHumans said:
LT wins, because Beyonder no matter how powerful he is/was, was kinda stupid. A stupid God is not really God.
LT was stupid or naive to the ways of man. he didn't understand our emotions etc. that does not mean he was stupid in how to use his power or protect himself.
@Driger: I agree that LT can also do all the things posted in your scan. I do know that LT went to Molecule Man, so Molecule Man could fight the Beyonder. It insinuated that LT knew he couldn't beat Beyonder. Hopefully someone will post the scan because I don't have it.
If this is fight to death then LT wins because I never saw LT being damaged.
LT was beaten by Thanos when Thanos had the HOTU. but that was the power of the TOAA so that is understandable.
@LordOfAllHumans said:
LT wins, because Beyonder no matter how powerful he is/was, was kinda stupid. A stupid God is not really God.
LT was stupid or naive to the ways of man. he didn't understand our emotions etc. that does not mean he was stupid in how to use his power or protect himself.
@Driger: I agree that LT can also do all the things posted in your scan. I do know that LT went to Molecule Man, so Molecule Man could fight the Beyonder. It insinuated that LT knew he couldn't beat Beyonder. Hopefully someone will post the scan because I don't have it.
Lt is like a king. he can order mm to fight beyonder. that does not mean he himself can't do that.
god send michal to fight lucifer. does that mean god himself can't defeat lucifer ?
hotu didn't damage Lt. it just absorbed him.
and who knows may be I said MAY BE all those characters themselves get absorbed in hotu(by their own wish) to respect the power of TOAA. may be hotu isin't really that much powerful.
Beyonder just think of banquet and Living Tribunal becomes banquet, then Beyonder invites all the ones that voted for him in this thread to have a delicious feast
@Driger: who knows may be I said MAY BE all those characters themselves get absorbed in hotu(by their own wish) to respect the power of TOAA
When Thanos was absorbing everyone, thanos says that " LT and Eternity RESISTED the longest due to their stubbornness. Google "Thanos vs LT" and you will see the scan. So Thanos absorbed them against their will.
may be hotu isin't really that much powerful.
LT is a omni level being. meaning there is only one of him in existence. The HOTU was powerful to absorb him, recreate him and the entire Universe. so it is plenty powerful
god send michal to fight lucifer. does that mean god himself can't defeat lucifer
That is a good thought but the comparison is off. God NEVER fights his own battles. He always sends someone else. LT is not like that. LT will fight his own battle. LT has fought Dr. Strange, Thanos a few times and Protege. It is out of character for LT to ask someone else for help. LT asking for help doesn't prove LT couldn't beat him, but people usually ask for help when they need it.
there is big difference between : ask help and give order.
the God of DC (Presence) never ask help, he just gives orders, he gave order to michal to fight lucifer, because he's his superior. he didn't ask his help. Presence never asked help. and never did Living Tribunal except in very rare occasions (like asking Silver Surfer's help to interfere in an other universe that LT doesn't control, or hoping that Molecule Man will stand by Abstracts side to convince Beyonder to stop)
@the_mighty_Beyonder: Michal works for the Presence. so he can give michal orders. and even though Presence is Superior to superman, Presence would have to ask superman for help. If they don't work for you, then you have to ask no matter how powerful you are.
@the_mighty_Beyonder: Michal works for the Presence. so he can give michal orders. and even though Presence is Superior to superman, Presence would have to ask superman for help. If they don't work for you, then you have to ask no matter how powerful you are.
When Thanos was absorbing everyone, thanos says that " LT and Eternity RESISTED the longest due to their stubbornness. Google "Thanos vs LT" and you will see the scan. So Thanos absorbed them against their will.
I can provide the scan :)
This is further backed by Thanos's bio (Thanos Source book)
This is also again backed by Living Tribunal's own bio (Official Hanbook of Marvel universe 2009), and guess what it says Thanos destroyed LT along with everything else.
Here is the full page of the bio, if you are interested :)
It was retconned. I recall LT telling someone (she hulk?) that every appearance he ever had was an M-body save one or two appearances involving Quasar and Kubik. This was fairly recent, so it throws the events involving THOTU out of limbo.
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