#1 Posted by Paulie21 (5 posts) - - Show Bio

I would have to say they are equally matched in martial arts. They both have power blast ability. The both have a an unbreakable will. They both have entered and won the most savage martial arts tournaments. So I chalk it up the the villain they had to defeat. M. Bison and Shang Sung. I would take Bison in that duel so I would take Ryu in a match against Liu Kang. Thoughts?

#2 Posted by myrmidonhero (61 posts) - - Show Bio

While Bison may have been the baddie boss for SFA and SF2, Akuma is Ryu's permanent challenge/demon to overcome. So really, if it came down to the "villain", you would have to ask "Guy who gains moves/powers by first having to defeat his opponent and then stealing their soul for the technique" or "Guy who trains non-stop for the perfect killing art and has been shown to punch mountains apart or sink islands"? If you went by fighting skill, I would liken Liu Kang more to Fei Long, both guys are fast, but compared to Ryu, neither of them hit as hard and Ryu is shown to be a bit more technical than Liu. In terms of Blast power, Ryu also has Liu beat, he could use about 5 or 6 different Hadoken types while Liu could only choose whether or not to fire high, low or jump and in mid air. Ryu's Shoryuken would also serve as a nasty counter to Liu's flying kick or his bicycle kick. Those are my two cents anyway. I give the fight to Ryu. My avatar aside, while I did like the SF series more than the MK series, Liu was still one of my favorite fighting game characters and I feel he got dealt a crap hand in the MK storyline.

#3 Edited by Paulie21 (5 posts) - - Show Bio

Come to think of it Ryu has his own version of Liu's bicycle kick. The spinning kick he does. The shoryuken is a big swing that Liu would not have an answer for. After reading your post I would give it to Ryu almost in a boat race. And I agree, Liu was the central character in the original game and I had to step aside to the gimmick type characters of Scorpion, Subzero, and Raiden. Super powers reigned over fighting skills in the latter versions of the games. That is one reason I have always liked the SF games better.

#4 Edited by pea55 (289 posts) - - Show Bio

@paulie21 @myrmidonhero Good fight!! In MK Liu Kang is my favorite character, and is one of my favorite fighting game characters of all, along with any other Bruce Lee incarnation. While on the other hand, Ryu is not my fav character in street fighter although, I do like him alot, as well as respect him a lot. I wanna give my unbiased opinion here, and not choose favorites. You guys do have some good points though, especially the one about M. Bison being superior to shang tsung. Then there's Shao Kahn, who is also superior to shang tsung, and Liu has also defeated him as well, but you have to take into account that they fought in mortal kombat, and I'm not sure if a mortal shao khan is superior to M. Bison either. This is a good match!! Hard for me to decide!!

#5 Posted by OverLordArhas (7553 posts) - - Show Bio

Can he turn into Evil Ryu?

#6 Posted by Erick_Williams (754 posts) - - Show Bio

Liu Kang should normal Ryu in a decent fight 7/10
If its Evil Ryu, Ryu wins 6/10

#7 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

Liu beats Ryu Easy.

I'm sorry, but if we are basing our assesments soley on the villians, then it's Shao kahn vs Akuma, not Shang and Bison. When looking at the 2 villians specifically, we have one character with great power and strength that can split a mountain, and another with eons of experience and ability to strip a planet of all life and stand up to the Gods. In the end though, the only fact that matters is Ryu can't beat Akuma yet, and Liu has beaten Shao Kahn.

Skill wise Liu is beyond Ryu for the simple fact that Ryu is still considered a "pup" lore wise, and is on a comparable skill level with Sagat, Ken, or any other SF fighter. Don't get me wrong, Ryu, Sagat, and the rest of them are skilled, but they are not as skilled as Liu Kang is. Liu is leagues a head of most of the fighters in MK as his skill in combat is on a Raiden level, and if the scales were balanced and Liu and Raiden fought, the out come could go either way. Ryu's skill level (proven by lore) isn't on that level, but (proven by lore) his potenetial might be.

In the end, Ryu might have the potential to compete or beat Liu Kang, but he is lacking in more ways than one. Ryu would level up in their fight and score some good hits, but if/when Liu got serious he'd go through him.

#8 Posted by myrmidonhero (61 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus: Might wanna keep up on Ryu's lore a little better. He isn't a "pup" by any stretch of the word and hasn't been considered that since the Alpha series. If you want to base things on lore, know too that Ryu has logged in over 10,000 fights according to Capcom staff. Liu has no where near that experience as he only fights in the MK tournaments. As for the villains, for all of Shao Kahn's experience, he has never shown the kind of strength Akuma has. One Shun-Goku-Satsu on Kahn and it's game over as the move is literally described as sending your soul to hell to be tortured and beaten for the culmination of your sins and Kahn's got a lot of those. Plus Kahn can't do diddly to a planet unless he wins an MK tournament 9 or 10 times consecutively. Akuma is not held by any such rule. "Normal Akuma" is just the real deal holding back. He's always "Shin Akuma". Akuma is just plain faster and stronger than Kahn is. There are tons of places to get various bits of lore on the SF crew both canon and non-canon. There isn't nearly as much for the MK guys outside of their game series. Aside from fatalities and game mechanics, I've yet to see anything in any MK character's personal lore that would impress me. I liked the series well enough, but if we're using "lore" there is a lot more on the SF side than there is on the MK side.

#9 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

Ask a Japanese and he'll say Ryu wins... Whether he's saying Ryukang or Ryu is anybody's guess... Nyahahahahaha!

#10 Edited by myrmidonhero (61 posts) - - Show Bio
#11 Posted by Grandmastersexyhd (305 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going Ryu in a tough fight.

#12 Posted by OverLordArhas (7553 posts) - - Show Bio

Game wise SF is more versatile. I do not like MK's movements at all.

The 1st MK game puts real person in the game the sluggish movement then were forgivable, the succeeding title stray from this and it is still MEH.

#13 Posted by randomcharachter (323 posts) - - Show Bio

Ryu just hold his own against Asura

#14 Edited by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas said:

Can he turn into Evil Ryu?

Current Ryu has mastered the power of nothingness and is stronger then Evil Ryu so why people keep bringing this up I'll never know. Ryu is now bullet proof, possesses incredible speed, pretty much perfect energy control, and can burn evil beings (even evil robots!!!) with just a touch.

#15 Edited by Grandmastersexyhd (305 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas:UMK3 and Trilogy had a faster pace flow of fighting then Street Fighter at the time if we're not including Capcom crossover games. Combos were fast, and you could also run if you played those two it's hard to even get a break from combat even when you're blocking Lol. Street Fighter has always been more of a technical approach than MK. No flashy combos but like 2-5 hit combos maybe into Super/Ultra where as MK you could combo like Crazy in UMK3, MK:T MK:4 and MK9

#16 Posted by randomcharachter (323 posts) - - Show Bio
#17 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

@myrmidonhero said:

@onilordasmodeus: Might wanna keep up on Ryu's lore a little better. He isn't a "pup" by any stretch of the word and hasn't been considered that since the Alpha series. If you want to base things on lore, know too that Ryu has logged in over 10,000 fights according to Capcom staff. Liu has no where near that experience as he only fights in the MK tournaments. As for the villains, for all of Shao Kahn's experience, he has never shown the kind of strength Akuma has. One Shun-Goku-Satsu on Kahn and it's game over as the move is literally described as sending your soul to hell to be tortured and beaten for the culmination of your sins and Kahn's got a lot of those. Plus Kahn can't do diddly to a planet unless he wins an MK tournament 9 or 10 times consecutively. Akuma is not held by any such rule. "Normal Akuma" is just the real deal holding back. He's always "Shin Akuma". Akuma is just plain faster and stronger than Kahn is. There are tons of places to get various bits of lore on the SF crew both canon and non-canon. There isn't nearly as much for the MK guys outside of their game series. Aside from fatalities and game mechanics, I've yet to see anything in any MK character's personal lore that would impress me. I liked the series well enough, but if we're using "lore" there is a lot more on the SF side than there is on the MK side.

A couple of things, but first the off topic stuff:

1) Shao Kahn didn't win the MK2 tourney before he took over Earth in MK3, and he didn't win in MK9 when he did it there either. Kahn having to win MK tourments is a rule he abides by willingly, and really, the only reason he did so for so long was because he thought he had to. When Kahn realized he could just take what he wanted, he did, and took the Earth as his property, but then he had to face the EGs power directly.

Also, Kahn holds back in fights due to the EGs rules (Mortal Kombat), much like Akuma hold back for his reasons, but when Kahn let loose (like in MK9) it took the EGs to stop him, and frankly Akuma has nothing to show or prove that he is on that level. At most, through feats, we can prove that Akuma is on a Shang Tsung level of attack power (large area of affect attacks) if not a little more; Kahn is an inter-planetary/demensional threat.

2) About the RD, Kahn could block an RD easy, even Shang Tsung could, and do it much easier than Gouken did, or Gen did for that matter, since his abilities revolve around soul manipulation. As you pointed out, the RD exposes its victims soul to hell (a single soul mind), but Kahn/Tsung is in possession of billions/thousand of souls respectively, and wouldn't think twice about sacrificing one...not that they'd have to anyway. Nobody in SF is ready for a soul drain, let alone the other magics that he MKU has.

Now, back on topic:

3) In the SFU, Ryu has been refered to as a pup as recent as SF4, and was said to be far from "ready" in SF3 which takes place after SF4 canonically. You might want to think that Ryu has shed the monical of "pup" since he gets so much attention as the SF poster boy, but in the realm of the real fighters in the SF series, Ryu is a pup.

3) Ryu has 10,000 fights under his belt? Really!! Against who?? Nobody of note. I really don't even believe this 10,000 fight statement anyway...but I'll just leave that alone. Regardless of any "off panel" fights though, according to actual, official lore, Ryu has beaten Sagat (who officially let his guard down after he "won" the fight), toppled Bison once (in a group effort in SFA3), ...uh... and that's it, except for beating Ken a couple times through out the series. Who else has Ryu beaten? What else has he done? Ryu spends more time fighting himself than beating other people, a feat Liu over came before MK1, when he was officially stated as being a master of the spirit.

Liu is a proven, straight up, and unquestionable, martial arts master in all facets of his mind, body, and soul, and Ryu is frankly not. At best, it can only be said that Ryu is really, really good, but that is the extent of his skill.

5) Lastly, in terms of shere amount of content, the canon lore for SF is actually less than MK.

SF animes, comics, movies, and everything else, aren't canon so they don't apply in a battle like this one, only the games do, but, if you want to count them, then we can. Just keep in mind though, that if that is the case then we can then pull from MKs extended universe too; its movies, the legacy series, the cartoons, the comics, and everything else too. Bottomline is though, while there is a ton of stuff to pull from on either side, and you may be less impressed by the MK stuff and more impressed with the SF stuff, debates like these can't be and aren't won by opinions alone, or people's singular impressions. Debates are one by facts and whatever else can be proven.

It is a fact that Ryu hasn't achieved much in his story since not much has happened in the SFU overall. Ryu is a good fighters who has gone from orphan, to trained fighter, to then go on to have beaten Sagat (his claim to fame; SF1), who then fought well enough to make Bison retreat (SFA3), and has gone on to have beaten Ken (his training partner) a few times since.

Conversely, Liu Kang has gone from orphan, to trained Shaolin fighter, to White Lotus member (group of Earth's best fighters), to white lotus leader, who then became the MK champ (MK1 and 2; titled the best mortal fighter on earth), to Earth's greatest fighter ever (MK3), to transcendent spiritual master in MKD. Kang is, and his accomplishments prove that he is, the best and most skilled fighter in the MKU, having the expeience and ability of a fighter 10,000 years older than he is. Ryu, isn't on that level.

Like I said originally, Ryu might have the potential to beat Liu in the future, but as of right now, he is lacking in more ways than one.

#18 Posted by Grandmastersexyhd (305 posts) - - Show Bio

@randomcharachter: No they're not i'm not sure how they can be ether. From basic Punch/Kick moves to special moves Hadoukens/Shoryukens to Ultra's are not non-cannon. An Ultra is just an enhanced version of their regular moves. Hence Dan praises his Saikyo-Ryu style in all of the games he is in and in Alpha 2 is where he opened up his Dojo, are you telling me that the moves he uses in the game are non-cannon now? Ryu would be using what he learned from Gouken against Liu Kang in an actual fight. Houdoken Learned from Gouken, Shoryuken..learned from Gouken..tatsumaki Kick..Learned from Gouken all cannon how are in game moves not gameplay? What would we be basing the match off of then because thats all Fighting Game characters have to go off of is In game moves which in Street Fighter Alpha 3 havily transfer to Cannon endings

#19 Posted by Grandmastersexyhd (305 posts) - - Show Bio

@randomcharachter: Actually after re-reading your respone to me, I was just responding to that guy telling him MK has had games flow more fluently than a few Street Fighter games because he said he didn't like how MK1 was slow and even today. I was just letting him know UMK3, MK:T and MK:4 are faster pace MK games than all of the other ones.

#20 Posted by myrmidonhero (61 posts) - - Show Bio

@onilordasmodeus: If Kahn/Tsung are in possession of so many soul in their body that only compounds the effect of the Raging Demon. Since when has Shang Tsung shown feats on Par with Akuma again? Even if we just use in game storylines/feats, again, Akuma has punch a mountain apart with a single strike right in his own ending. I'll agree that it took some serious effort to stop Kahn once he just started taking whatever he wanted, but Akuma is definitely up to the task. In either case it has nothing to do with Ryu vs Liu Kang.

If we go by in-game showings, Liu just has no proper defense against Ryu's arsenal of moves. He'd be completely incapable of defending himself against something like a Denjin Hadoken which couldn't be blocked by anyone and fries every fiber of your being. Half his major arsenal could be countered by the Dragon Punch alone, the other half the Hadoken.

If we go to extended canons, Ryu has survived a raging demon punch through the chest and finished the fight, can lift large boulders over his head (that is actually in game canon storyline), can use hadokens that are like maximum sized Cyclops powered optic blasts, there are all kinds of crazy things to go by.

As for the "Pup" thing, the only people that even still consider him that are Gouken, Akuma and Oro. Gouken and Akuma because he still has more power and skill to attain and Oro because of the skill/power thing and that Oro is over 100 years old.

If we still stick with in-game storylines, who did Liu Kang actually fight? He didn't fight everyone. We know he beat Shang Tsung twice (and was horribly robbed in Deadly Alliance, I was really mad at that). He was also originally recruited because he was the best fighter from the Shaolin Temple he lived/studied at. Not because he was the best fighter in the world. He was considered the best fighter in the world because he beat Tsung and Kahn. That doesn't necessarily make him the best fighter on the planet.

And as @rozalia said, by the end of the SF 4 series, Ryu mastered the "Power of Nothingness/Emptiness" which grants him incredible spiritual power, and clarity enough to easily surpass the Satsui-no-Hadou.

In either case it's a good fight, if they were in the same universe I could easily say they'd be great friends (so long as neither of them got murdered in a cheap way lol). I say Ryu wins and you say Liu wins. Thank goodness we're both entitled to personal opinions ^^.

#21 Posted by randomcharachter (323 posts) - - Show Bio

#22 Edited by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

3) In the SFU, Ryu has been refered to as a pup as recent as SF4, and was said to be far from "ready" in SF3 which takes place after SF4 canonically. You might want to think that Ryu has shed the monical of "pup" since he gets so much attention as the SF poster boy, but in the realm of the real fighters in the SF series, Ryu is a pup.

Ryu puts himself down by saying he always needs more training but that doesn't make him a weakling. In SS4 he mastered the power of nothingness (what his master used to match a serious Akuma) and defeated Seth with ease.

2) About the RD, Kahn could block an RD easy, even Shang Tsung could, and do it much easier than Gouken did, or Gen did for that matter, since his abilities revolve around soul manipulation. As you pointed out, the RD exposes its victims soul to hell (a single soul mind), but Kahn/Tsung is in possession of billions/thousand of souls respectively, and wouldn't think twice about sacrificing one...not that they'd have to anyway. Nobody in SF is ready for a soul drain, let alone the other magics that he MKU has.

Pretty sure that would only make the RD stronger but its your second point that is interesting because both Gouken, Gen and hell even M.Bison have shown the ability to empty their soul.

Liu is a proven, straight up, and unquestionable, martial arts master in all facets of his mind, body, and soul, and Ryu is frankly not. At best, it can only be said that Ryu is really, really good, but that is the extent of his skill.

Liu does some extremely stupid things due to his anger (lol taking on Raiden). Ryu has mastered the power of nothingness which relies on the user being completely clean of evil.

#23 Posted by SSJLozza (1528 posts) - - Show Bio

Ryu stomps! He's supposed to have the potential to surpass Akuma- who could solo MK (Elder Gods aside).

#24 Posted by JCD_IN_CONTROL (6 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a tough one but, I'm going will Ryu Sama

#25 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

#

@myrmidonhero:

I'm glad we can keep it civil and agree to disagree...but a few more things:

1) The RD has never been stated to attack/affect multiple beings or souls in a single strike. If Shang or Kahn were confronted by an RD, and some how couldn't block it like others have been able to, manipulating a portion of their power to match/take the brunt of the hit should suffice.

2) Shang's biggest area of affect "attack" was in MK1/2 when he basically was tearing his island apart in an attempt to kill Earth's fighters. MK's big power showings are shown differently than SF's big showings. Where in SF a fighter would break soming like a large stone or mountain, in MK they would tear a whole in the fabric of space, or incinerate a person from the inside out. While Shang has never punched a mountian and destroyed it, Akuma has never became vapor, posessed a person, and made them explode from the inside.

3) What is not being taken into account here regarding Ryu and Liu's move set, and the potency of their attacks and the speed difference between them. Yeah Ryu is fast, but Liu can literaly teleport (instant movement) and Ryu can't match that. Yeah Ryu is strong as he lifted a boulder in SF3 (which is not canon), but Liu striking power is ridiculous by comparison as he's puched through people, and can pucture titanium (and various other materials) with a single blow. Yeah Ryu's various hadoken's are seemingly strong, but a single "charged" fire ball from Liu can literally blow a person to pieces. Keep in mind too that Liu has also been know to not only sense chi, but to syphon it and use it as his own (MKD).

4) The pup thing. The reason it matter is because the fighters that matter are the one who regard him as such (Gouken, Akuma, Oro). In MK, Liu is respected by the top dawgs (Raiden, Fujin, Shang, Kahn, etc) as a master and treated as such; plus as the story continued Liu remained indefeated in single combat where Ryu is been beaten multiple times.

5) Who did Liu actually fight?

  • Liu was the only Earth fighter to make it to the last round in MK1, so he defeated everyone (all the bad guys) including Goro and Shang.
  • In MK2 it was much the same as it was only he who had advanced to the last round and "defeated" Kahn; in MK9 it played out differently.
  • MK3 and 4 were different because they weren't tournament, but Liu defeated all of Kahn's/Shinnok's minions that he fought. In MK3 was most like Eramc, Motaro, Shang and Kahn (everyone else was adressed in other endings), and in MK4 it would have most likely have been Goro again, and then Shinnok with the aid of Raiden.

6) Liu was "recruited" because he was the best of the Shaolin. He defeated all the Shaolin fighters including Kung Lao to earn the right to represent them in the MK tourney. The MK tourney itself brought the best of the best from around the world together to fight. Unlike SFs tourneys where anyone can enter and prove their worth, the MK tourneys were by invite only, by people/beings govern and search the globe for the best and most gifted fighters of that generation. Also remember that the MK tourney is only held once a generation, once every 50 years give or take, so when it comes around, the people who are taking part are fighters who have been training their whole lives just to take part it, as was the case Liu.

Liu was basically breed to fight specifically for the purpose of MK, a living weapon you could say, and he defeated all who stood before him just as he was trained to do. The winner of the tournament is/was officially named the best fighter of that generation, and when Liu won in MK2-3, he officially became the first and only person to have been able to beat Kahn in single combat in over 10,000, and was regarded as Earth's greatest and most skilled fighter/hero ever.

7) Lastly, Ryu didn't learn the power of nothingness at the end of SF4, Gouken sealed the dark hadou in him (apparently) with the power of nothingness which cured him or something like that. The details surround those event are still a little fuzzy, and all that is known is that in SF3 Ryu seemingly wasn't afflicted by the DH any longer. Ryu has a long way to go before he can be regarded as an equal to Gouken, AKuma, or Oro...or even Gen for that matter, and Bison (1v1), and Gill, and Urien (he might be a stretch).

Bottomline is, Ryu has the potential, but as far as skill goes (backed by actual showings) he is either at the low end of the high tier ranks in SF, or the high end of the mid tier ranks.

#26 Posted by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

7) Lastly, Ryu didn't learn the power of nothingness at the end of SF4, Gouken sealed the dark hadou in him (apparently) with the power of nothingness which cured him or something like that. The details surround those event are still a little fuzzy, and all that is known is that in SF3 Ryu seemingly wasn't afflicted by the DH any longer. Ryu has a long way to go before he can be regarded as an equal to Gouken, AKuma, or Oro...or even Gen for that matter, and Bison (1v1), and Gill, and Urien (he might be a stretch).

Wrong, you seem to have the problem of constantly forgetting SS4 exists. Ryu in that when getting curb stomped by Seth mastered the power of nothingness, no selled Seth's punch, burned Seth with his aura before proceeding to finish Seth off in a single Metsu Hadoken (his canon most powerful Hadoken thrown).

#27 Edited by onilordasmodeus (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia said:

7) Lastly, Ryu didn't learn the power of nothingness at the end of SF4, Gouken sealed the dark hadou in him (apparently) with the power of nothingness which cured him or something like that. The details surround those event are still a little fuzzy, and all that is known is that in SF3 Ryu seemingly wasn't afflicted by the DH any longer. Ryu has a long way to go before he can be regarded as an equal to Gouken, AKuma, or Oro...or even Gen for that matter, and Bison (1v1), and Gill, and Urien (he might be a stretch).

Wrong, you seem to have the problem of constantly forgetting SS4 exists. Ryu in that when getting curb stomped by Seth mastered the power of nothingness, no selled Seth's punch, burned Seth with his aura before proceeding to finish Seth off in a single Metsu Hadoken (his canon most powerful Hadoken thrown).

Sorry, but no, you're wrong. You are trying to take the SF4 anime as canon and using that as a basis of what happened in the SF4 story. That is incorrect, as all of the animes are non canon...all of them.

The best we can say that happened during, and at the end of, the SF4 story arc is that Ryu at some point encountered Sagat, Sakura, and Ken, and had a match with them, to which we don't know the out comes. Further more, at some point (maybe) the DH awakened in Ryu and called to Akuma, to which Gouken responded by sealing it with in him. Like MK, SF has a ton of side story stuff that shows this and that, but it's only the in game stuff that can be counted as canon material.

Anyway, even if we were to use that showing, the best you can say is that Ryu, after being pushed to the limit, is able to bring out great power with in him, just how he was able to do in the SFA: Generations anime. He can't control that power at will, and in a fight against a heavy hitter like Liu he'd be dead very quickly (if this fight is to the death). Unlike Ryu, Liu is in complete control of his chi and can use his Dragon form, Rage mode (MKSM), and all his other abilites to their fullest at will.

#28 Posted by saiyan_earthling (5378 posts) - - Show Bio

Ryu beats Liu Kang, but not easily.

#29 Posted by iamthewolf88 (346 posts) - - Show Bio

Ryu ftw.