Librarian (Luther Strode) vs Kraven

In character

Winner by KO, Incapacitation or Death

Fight takes place at an unpopulated city block at night

Random encounter

Regular equipment and abilities

Who'd win? For what reasons?

Kraven.

He's faster, stronger, better equipped, more skilled and cooler.

@comicstooge: what's so cool about a man wearing leopard print pants and has laser breasts ?

Faster and stronger you say? Better equipped and more skilled, sure (coolness I'll say stalemate and no more), but what has he done to say he's stronger than this:

Or faster than this:

And not to mention Librarians move reading which further bolsters his reaction speed.

BUMP

Kraven.

BUMP

Librarian has Kraven in physicals, but Kraven has much more skill. If it wasn't for the healing factor I'd give Kraven a huge majority, but I'd say this is pretty close to 5/10 for both.

Kraven also has a healing factor and he is stronger, more durable and better equipped. The Librarian has him in speed and move reading though.

Kraven should get the majority.

@shenkuei: How is he stronger and more durable?

He shrugs off hits from Spider-man, before he ever got his healing factor. He even survived a beating from hulk and remained conscious IIRC. At the moment, he is supposedly immortal.

Kraven is at least a 2-tonner according to handbooks. Classic Kraven was said to have the strength of a gorilla and thought of himself as physically stronger than Spiderman. Kraven has also killed a Rhino with his bare hands IIRC. Or some comparable large animal. According to Justin Jordan Strode isn't even strong enough to life up a car and the Librarian is weaker than him IMO. The way that they make people explode with their punches has more to do with their "meat vision" than brute strength according to the author.

Kraven should win

@shenkuei:

Kraven is at least a 2-tonner according to handbooks. Classic Kraven was said to have the strength of a gorilla and thought of himself as physically stronger than Spiderman. Kraven has also killed a Rhino with his bare hands IIRC. Or some comparable large animal. According to Justin Jordan Strode isn't even strong enough to life up a car and the Librarian is weaker than him IMO. The way that they make people explode with their punches has more to do with their "meat vision" than brute strength according to the author.

Actual feats carry more weight then writer comments, and I don't think anyone takes anything Justin Jordan said seriously.

The Librarian has over 25 pieces of Shrapnel in his body during his fight with Luther Strode, and it never even phases him. Even if his durability is lower, the damage done to his body means next to nothing. He has his head twisted completely around breaking his neck and it doesn't damage him.

The feats shown in the art, show Librarian using speed, strength, and healing at levels that Kraven has never replicated.

I'm not saying Librarian wins, because I think Kraven has almost as close of a reaction time, and equal speed in short quick movements. His skill is also much higher then the Librarians which gives him his biggest edge.

I'd put them at equal durability to be honest. The amount of crap Librarian's body has gone through without even being phased is insane.

He got ragdolled by Hulk and thrown away.. Hulk could oneshot him. Not really a reliable showing.

Librarian is far more than a 2 tonner. At least 5. He's casually battered through an armored Police van and ripped the doors off their hinges, and collapsed a warehouse as collateral damage from his fight with Strode.

Kraven has a lot of hyperbole statements surrounding wild animals. He's been said to have the strength of a rhino and the speed of a jungle cat. I don't think those are intended to be actual measurements.

He punched a Rhino in the head and killed it with one blow, off-panel. Eh.. Captain America strength at best.

Kraven isn't either.

No.. the way they make people explode with their punches is to do with physical strength.

And nobody takes his statements seriously. If you want to go that route how about I pull up the statement where Justin Jordan said something like "Luther is a combination of Karnak, Spider-Man and Sabertooth"?

Seriously. Nobody takes his rough estimations and lack of knowledge on pretty basic physics seriously.

I take them seriously and quite a few others do. His on-panel strength and durability feats don't trump what Kraven has done, as I have outlined in my last post. Kraven has tanked much worse than some shrapnel in recent showings, he is literally immortal. He seems to heal from anything. Damage to his body doesn't affect him any more than it does the Librarian.

This is true. Current kraven can't die. Anything librarian dishes out kraven will take.

Kraven keeps up with Spiderman.. He'd be awfully evasive. I'd give it to Kraven barely

@i_like_swords: Librarian is far more than a 2 tonner. At least 5. He's casually battered through an armored Police van and ripped the doors off their hinges, and collapsed a warehouse as collateral damage from his fight with Strode.

None of that proves Librarian is "at least" a 5 tonner.

Kraven has a lot of hyperbole statements surrounding wild animals. He's been said to have the strength of a rhino and the speed of a jungle cat. I don't think those are intended to be actual measurements.

I think they are actually. His speed is listed at 60 mph in the handbooks which is close to a Cheetah's max speed and given the above strength feats comparing him to a gorilla is entirely apt. The Rhino thing sounds like hyperbole though. I guess you could take any of these statements either way.

He punched a Rhino in the head and killed it with one blow, off-panel. Eh.. Captain America strength at best.

Let's not nonchalantly dismiss feats for no reason. The Librarian hasn't punched out any Rhinos that I am aware of and neither has Captain America, unless you mean The Rhino which was massive PIS.

Kraven isn't either.

Most cars don't weigh over 2 tons so actually, he is strong enough to lift a car.

No.. the way they make people explode with their punches is to do with physical strength.

That's a statement from JJ himself. Since he's the one who wrote the story, he should know best. There's no on-panel evidence to contradict him on this point.

And nobody takes his statements seriously.

Several people on the thread about this were taking it seriously and so were all the people saying Strode's been downgraded, and all the people making threads comparing the "new" Strode to Batman, Shang-chi etc. Those that weren't trolling of course.

If you want to go that route how about I pull up the statement where Justin Jordan said something like "Luther is a combination of Karnak, Spider-Man and Sabertooth"?

A fan said that, in response to JJ listing Strode's abilities of being able to see weaknesses (Karnak) and read one move ahead (Spiderman). Sabertooth got thrown in as a comparison to his healing factor and viciousness I guess. It wasn't meant to be taken as a literal comparison the way some people (who were very angry at JJ at the time and were trying to discredit him) were trying to make it seem.

@shenkuei:

None of that proves Librarian is "at least" a 5 tonner.

I'm honestly sh*t with weight measurements so I'll just concede, but I do think Librarian could be stronger.

I think they are actually. His speed is listed at 60 mph in the handbooks which is close to a Cheetah's max speed and given the above strength feats comparing him to a gorilla is entirely apt. The Rhino thing sounds like hyperbole though. I guess you could take any of these statements either way.

Well I take them as hyperbole. I'd be willing to assert that Librarian is about as fast, if not faster, than Kraven in travel speed, seeing as Luther before his powers even developed to Librarian's level was able to sprint across an entire city in minutes.

Let's not nonchalantly dismiss feats for no reason. The Librarian hasn't punched out any Rhinos that I am aware of and neither has Captain America, unless you mean The Rhino which was massive PIS.

No.. but given the fact he's punched through reinforced steel, I'd say he's perfectly capable of punching through a rhino.

Most cars don't weigh over 2 tons so actually, he is strong enough to lift a car.

Some cars. Not every single car. I don't think it even really matters anyway. Kraven is a 2 tonner, so we'll leave it at that.

That's a statement from JJ himself. Since he's the one who wrote the story, he should know best. There's no on-panel evidence to contradict him on this point.

So why don't you logically explain to me how having "meat vision" alone allows you to turn someones head into a red mist with a punch? I don't even remember him saying anything about meat vision allowing you to punch someones head off but feel free to post it. It's illogical just like all of his statements - he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Seriously, stop lowballing. I'm not debating this statement BS with anyone ever again.

Several people on the thread about this were taking it seriously and so were all the people saying Strode's been downgraded, and all the people making threads comparing the "new" Strode to Batman, Shang-chi etc. Those that weren't trolling of course.

I don't care in the slightest about how many unnamed and irrelevant people took what seriously. What I'm telling you is that Justin Jordan's statements do not match the feats on-panel. I'm taking the on-panel feats over Justin Jordan's rough, unqualified estimations which he himself deemed as "only a rule of thumb".

A fan said that, in response to JJ listing Strode's abilities of being able to see weaknesses (Karnak) and read one move ahead (Spiderman). Sabertooth got thrown in as a comparison to his healing factor and viciousness I guess. It wasn't meant to be taken as a literal comparison the way some people (who were very angry at JJ at the time and were trying to discredit him) were trying to make it seem.

No.

The fan said something like "So Luther is Karnak + Spider-Man + Sabertooth"? to which JJ replied "that sounds about right"

So yeah. If we're going by your logic, then Karnak, Spider-Man and Sabertooth combined are only capable of twice what an olympic athlete is capable of, in Justin Jordan's eyes. Yeah... reaaal credible.

Seriously, the only discrediting going on right now is of you in regards to the Strodeverse.

So why don't you logically explain to me how having "meat vision" alone allows you to turn someones head into a red mist with a punch? I don't even remember him saying anything about meat vision allowing you to punch someones head off but feel free to post it. It's illogical just like all of his statements - he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Seriously, stop lowballing. I'm not debating this statement BS with anyone ever again.

It's comic book logic. Same way Karnak is able to hurt people with superhuman durability, or how Karate Kid can destroy glaciers etc. I'm lowballing? How? I'm literally just repeating what the author said.

I don't care in the slightest about how many unnamed and irrelevant people took what seriously. What I'm telling you is that Justin Jordan's statements do not match the feats on-panel. I'm taking the on-panel feats over Justin Jordan's rough, unqualified estimations which he himself deemed as "only a rule of thumb".

And you are entirely entitled to that opinion. I'm telling you that saying "nobody" takes it seriously is wrong. I take it seriously, for one, although I agree it doesn't trump on-panel showings.

No.

The fan said something like "So Luther is Karnak + Spider-Man + Sabertooth"? to which JJ replied "that sounds about right"

Yes. Just like I said, a fan said that within the context of Justin Jordan listing Strode's abilities. Justin Jordan laughed at him and then decided to humor his comparison which neither of them intended as a literal statement of Strode being equal to all those characters combined. It's quite clear from the context and the joking nature of the exchange. You and indie are the only people I have ever seen try to pass that statement off in this way. Indie only said so because he was trying to prove that JJ was - and this is a direct quote - an "idiot". Indie later even admitted he wasn't in his normal state of mind at the time. Regardless of if you think JJ is an idiot or not he couldn't possibly be stupid enough to think:

Karnak, Spider-Man and Sabertooth combined are only capable of twice what an olympic athlete is capable of, in Justin Jordan's eyes.

It's completely obvious that's not what he meant when all of these statements literally came within a few seconds of each other. You are seriously trying to tell me you think the guy who writes Luther Strode is that stupid? To contradict himself to such an extreme extent within seconds of saying something completely different? Even if you believe so it's abundantly clear to me, from context alone, that Justin Jordan wasn't trying to say that at all and he was merely humoring a fan.

You don't have to agree with his statements. Hell, I disagree myself with them to an extent and I say the on-panel feats trump what he said anyway in some cases but let's be logical here. The gap between what JJ said and the on-panel showings comes from the stylization of the art, something multiple people, like super_soldier_xii, pointed out long before those statements even came out, not from Justin Jordan being absurdly stupid and clueless as to what he himself had written.

Seriously, the only discrediting going on right now is of you in regards to the Strodeverse.

Again, all I'm doing is repeating what the author said and giving objective facts here. I'm not lowballing this series. I love Strode and have read every book in the series. I've defended it multiple times before, including in the wake of the JJ tweets where I was one of the one's pointing out that they needed to be taken with a grain of salt.

Baseless accusations aside I more or less agree with most of the rest of what you've said. The Librarian could be stronger, at least in striking power. He is probably faster than Kraven. He could probably punch through a Rhino too. I'm still giving a slight edge to Kraven for having slightly better feats overall, and his array of weapons.

@shenkuei: The fact you nitpicked what you wanted to include in your reply and are comparing me to Cadence shows how laughable your argument is. Also, I'm not the only one who doesnt take the statements seriously. Off the top of my head @shawnbaby doesn't either and neither do a few other well known users.

Agree to disagree.

I nitpicked? How? I addressed literally almost everything you said. And then I added that I agreed with most of the rest of what you said.

Baseless accusations aside I more or less agree with most of the rest of what you've said.

That's a blanket statement. Literally the opposite of nitpicking.

Please, show me how I nitpicked and why my "argument" is so laughable.

EDIT: Oh, and I never said you were the only one who didn't take those tweets seriously, so don't put those words in my mouth.

I'm still waiting for @i_like_swords to show me how I nitpicked and show why my arguments are so laughable. In the meantime let me try to predict what you might want to say.

The fact you nitpicked what you wanted to include in your reply and are comparing me to Cadence shows how laughable your argument is.

I'm going to assume that when you say I "nitpicked" that you were referring to the fact that I only disagreed with part of what you said, and agreed with the rest? That's not nitpicking, that's logic. It wouldn't make any sense for me to deny everything you said when some of the points you made are actually correct. When somebody says something that I agree with, I'm not going to argue that for no reason. That's completely illogical. Unlike some people I actually acknowledge when my opponents get things correct. That doesn't mean I can't disagree with their other points.

And next you are probably going to say that the points that I did agree with are enough to prove the Librarian wins. Nope. As multiple other people have pointed out even if the Librarian has an advantage in every stat (which he doesn't), he could still lose based on skill and gear alone. The points of yours that I acknowledge don't hurt my argument at all. All I acknowledged was that the Librarian has comparable striking power or possibly slightly better. But Kraven has weapons, negating that advantage. And I acknowledged that the Librarian was faster in my very first post. The last few posts have changed nothing about my argument. Kraven still holds the edge feat-wise in almost every other category.

Also, I'm not the only one who doesnt take the statements seriously.

Now let me guess what you were trying to say here. You think I was accusing you and cadence of being the only ones that don't buy into the JJ twitter statements. You're wrong again. I never said that. I said you two were the only ones trying to use that one particular statement to discredit him. That one particular statement involving Karnak that no one else on this site, or even Justin Jordan himself, takes seriously. The statement that I thoroughly proved was simply a non-serious way of JJ humoring a fan who was making a specific comparison between Strode and a few other characters in the context of a specific few abilities of Strode's. In fact, the last time someone tried to do this they got smacked down by @k4tzm4n IIRC.

Does that address everything? If not, please reply. I predict that this won't happen because you've recognized by now that you aren't going to win this debate. That's why you made some vague statements and then just tried to dismiss me as "nitpicking" and "laughable" rather than make a real counter. Everything I've said in this thread was me being as objective and truthful as possible and I'm confident in everything I've said here. If you can't prove how I was nitpicking and making laughable arguments I'm going to go ahead and declare myself the winner here. Thanks for debating though.

Jesus Christ.. someone doesn't know what "Agree to disagree" means.

And since when do you "win" a debate apart from when you're in a CAV? I thought we debated points to come to a verdict, not to be better than each other.

As I tried to make clear before - I'm out.

..

For the third time.

@i_like_swords: I'm not trying to say I'm better than anyone, I was just defending myself from your accusations. It's unreasonable say I'm nitpicking, call my arguments laughable, then just expect me to ignore it. If you just wanted to end the discussion, saying all that was completely unnecessary.

Kraven.

First of all, I apologize for getting that wrong. I don't even remember reading that. But you never acknowledged that you agreed with me on the winner, or on any of my points, during our debate so I had no reason to think that you agreed.