LHTT R2: GhostRavage vs. TNBB

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TheNewBlueBeetle007

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Welcome, welcome, welcome to the low high tier tournament. And if you are wondering doesnt that make it middle class then you are not thinking high enough...just dont think that high.

Everyone knows the rules and when the bell rings the fight begins. If you dont know the rules then it is simple, each team has to have a tech person, a brawler, and a wildcard. Our first matchup of Round 2 is:

@thenewbluebeetle007

Blue Beetle, Donna Troy, and Firestorm

PERK: I DC You: If your characters are all from DC, they will have perfect teamwork and basic knowledge on the enemy.

@ghostravage

Bruce Banner, Indestructible Hulk, Savior Cable

PERK: Marvelous: If all of your characters are from Marvel, your will lose ALL their morals and self-restraint

Remember, be ruthless in a nice way, and if you need the rules just hit the link here

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TheNewBlueBeetle007

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Round 1

Character Introductions

You know the drill. If you are knowledgable on my characters then there's no reason to read these, but if not, hopefully these short bios will provide a bit of insight on their capabilities.

I am using a Composite Pre Flashpoint / Post Flashpoint version of each of my characters.

Blue Beetle

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Bio

El Paso teenager Jaime Reyes stumbled upon an odd piece of machinery in a random lot.

Little did he know that this piece of tech would turn out to be alien and graft into his spine, turning him into the superhero Blue Beetle! With help from his friends, family, and former superhero Peacemaker, he has faced the Spectre, Eclipso, and Brother Eye, and stopped a whole alien invasion by the Reach.

Another interesting thing to note is that Jaime's sense of right and wrong was so strong that it gave Khaji-Da the Blue Scarab sentience. Scarab was originally an infiltrator for the Reach (aliens that want to take over the Earth), but later it defied its own programming and, with Jaime's help, defeated the Reach.

Here is his official bio, from 52 Issue 32:

Powers and Abilities

The Scarab is a piece of tech that can turn into nearly any weapon. It grants Jaime great versatility with respectable physical statistics.

  • Invisibility
  • Energy Blasts
  • Enhanced Statistics
  • Neural scramblers
  • Flight
  • Draining
  • About a dozen other superpowers that I don't feel like typing at the moment

Donna Troy

Donna as Wonder Woman II
Donna as Wonder Woman II

Biography

Donna Troy, alias Wonder Girl was created to be a playmate for the young Wonder Woman by the sorceress Magala, who used a magical mirror to create a duplicate of Diana, though with her own independent personality. She was abducted by Dark Angel (who mistook her for the real Diana) who cursed her to experience a cycle of countless tragic lives, given the name Donna Troy as a cruel joke to her origins. But it would not be until the intervention of Wonder Woman, Hippolyta, and the Flash years later that she would learn this.

Donna had two sets of parents, each of whom gave her up to orphanages. Eventually there was a fire, and the goddess Rhea saved her. Donna developed superpowers, and became one of the founding members of the Teen Titans, even suggesting their name. With the Teen Titans, she faced numerous powerful threats such as Team Titans and Indigo.

After dying at the hands of a Superman robot rigged by Indigo, she was brought back by the Titans of Myth so that she could be their goddess. She later became a member of the New Justice League, along with Batman (Grayson), Jade, Jesse Quick, Starman, and Congorilla, becoming a fan favorite in that role.

Powers, Gear, and Abilities

Powers and Abilities:

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Speed
  • Superhuman Durability
  • Accelerated Healing
  • Flight

Gear:

  • Lasso of Persuasion: With this powerful magical item, Donna can make anyone do what she tells them, provided her willpower exceeds theirs.
  • Amazon Armor (not using it here)
  • Bracelets of Submission: Indestructible cuffs that are worn by all Amazonian women.

Abilities:

  • Donna is an excellent H2H Combatant, good enough to hold her own against Wonder Woman.

Firestorm

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Bio // Character History

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Football player Ronnie Raymond and nuclear physicist Martin Stein were fused as a result of an accident in Stein's lab, thus creating the entity known as Firestorm. An extraordinarily powerful being, Firestorm could manipulate non-organic matter, fly at astounding speeds, and spew flames from his body. Frequent banter between Stein and Raymond was a hallmark of their adventures. Firestorm was a member of the Justice League of America.

Later, Ronnie ordered the United States and Russia to lay down their nuclear weapons to prevent mass destruction. As expected, neither country was happy about it, and even the Justice League came to try and stop Firestorm. The Russians also sent their own superhero, Pozhar, to confront Firestorm, and when they clashed, Pozhar (who went by the civilian name Mikhail Arkhadin) was fused into the Matrix. He was later expelled from it and became a Russian version of Firestorm.

In Identity Crisis, Ronnie died a rather non-glamorous, abrupt death at the hands of Shadow Thief. We soon learned that the Firestorm entity could not be killed in the traditional sense, and it attached itself to Jason Rusch, a brilliant high school student. Jason was a much more versatile Firestorm than Raymond/Stein, demonstrating a myriad of new abilities including temperature control and size shifting. Rusch fused with his girlfriend and, after helping the League defeat the Legion of Doom, became a member, before eventually quitting.

Post-Flashpoint, Firestorm was made up of Rusch and Raymond, while Stein was more or less out of the picture. They were individual Firestorms (as seen above) but could combine to create Fury, a walking nuclear reactor. After the termination of the government's Firestorm program (which was responsible for Firestorm's creation), they gained the ability to fuse into a single Firestorm, without the instability of Fury. Firestorm has clashed with the Teen Titans, Despero, and the Crime Syndicate, and has become one of the more powerful members of the League, although he is still nothing compared to his Pre-52 counterpart.

The Nuclear Man has been a member of the Justice League, and one of their most powerful members. He's fought the highest order of team-busters including Despero, Darkseid, and Anti-Monitor, in some cases even defeating them.

Powers and Abilities

The Firestorm Matrix has the energy of a big bang itself, and primarily it is used to restructure matter. However, everything is made up of matter, so with the right tweaks, a host of other powers become readily accessible to Firestorm as well.

The Firestorm I'm using is Composite, so he'll have all the powers of every Firestorm from the events following COIE to the present day.

  • Transmutation
  • Size Shifting
  • Flight
  • Intangibility
  • Temperature Control
  • Enhanced Physiology
  • Minor telekinesis
  • Energy manipulation
  • Teleportation and Wormhole Manipulation

Initial Considerations

I seriously feel as though my team has this match in the bag. Blue Beetle and Firestorm are arguably the two most versatile characters in this tournament, and Donna Troy is only a hair below Wonder Woman in physicals (Wonder Woman was the limit), with her Lasso of Persuasion being even more useful than Diana's famous Lasso of Truth.

Now, before I go over to your team, I'd like to point out the two perks that my team possesses:

  1. Perfect Teamwork
  2. Basic Knowledge

Considering that my entire team has met at some point or another, and Donna and Firestorm have actually fought alongside each other, the perfect teamwork perk isn't that important. However it never hurts to have perfect synergy and an unspoken plan of attack.

However, basic knowledge really is. As the moderator of the tournament, here is what I set basic knowledge to, in this scenario. The team will know:

  • That Cable is a telepath and a telekinetic, as well as a master strategist.
  • That Hulk is a very durable, very strong character that is hard to put down, but lacks versatility.
  • That Banner is a tech specialist.
  • We'll also know which one is which.

Now, going over to your team, Banner is overly reliant on technology and has no intrinsic powers of his own, and he could frankly be defeated by any member of my team within an instant (which I'll get to later). The Hulk is durable and will be a bit more difficult to put down, but we have numerous strategies that would deal with him.

The only thing that could potentially give my team pause is Cable's telepathy and telekinesis. However, even that can be brought down with the proper resistance.

The three matchups that I will choose, as the team who has basic knowledge, are Firestorm vs. Hulk, Blue Beetle vs. Banner, and Donna Troy vs. Cable.

Opening Strategy

Donna vs. Cable // Blitz + Lasso

Donna's opening strategy against the Omega Level mutant will be to speed-blitz him.

I've read a few Cable debates, both yours and those of other notable Viners, and I was rather unimpressed with Cable's combat speed.

Donna Troy, meanwhile, is a duplicate of Wonder Woman (putting it in the simplest terms possible considering how convoluted her history is). This grants her immense combat speed, readily apparent in many instances throughout her career.

For one example we can look at Countdown to Final Crisis #17...

Here, Donna faces an ally-turned-enemy, named Bob the Monitor. Bob had been journeying with Donna, Kyle Rayner, and Jason Todd to find Ray Palmer, but unknown to Donna and the others, he actually planned to kill Palmer once found. This obviously provoked a reaction from both Ray's friends and the three venturing heroes, instigating a fight.

The instance is particularly compelling because Bob was actually able to react to (and vaporize) a version of the Flash; however, when faced with a blitz from Donna, he was wholly unable to react.

I believe that this shows immense speed on Donna's part; more than enough to say she can blitz Cable, but we can also look atTitans for further proof...

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As you can see here, Donna actually manages to catch up to a speeding Jesse Quick, member of the Flash family with access to the Speed Force.

And while Jesse does not have the feats of Wally or Bart, she is still very fast on her own, as we can see in Justice League of America #50, where she races evenly with Supergirl.

So all in all, Donna's speed is too much for Cable to handle, and she could easily blitz him.

But she isn't merely going to punch him (although that would probably work too). She knows how big of a threat Cable is, and won't waste any time incapacitating him. That's why she'll go straight for the Lasso of Persuasion.

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As we see in this scan from Justice League #44, Donna Troy's Lasso of Persuasion can affect the most powerful beings, including Etrigan the Demon (who, by the way, made a fool out of Superman). As far as I've seen, nobody has been able to resist it and I see no reason for why Cable should be able to.

So, overall, a blitz and then incapacitation with the Lasso will lead to Cable's downfall.

Firestorm vs. Hulk // Blasts + BFR

Hulk is a brawler, plain and simple. He has immense strength and durability, but Firestorm is a horrid matchup for him.

While our basic knowledge encompasses the fact that Hulk is a very powerful brick, I don't think it would be fair to say that Firestorm would go for an automatic incapacitation straight away. My guess is that he'd try to blast Hulk first using his signature fusion blasts and, to be honest, I think that these could potentially incapacitate Hulk at base with a few blasts.

The weakest version of Firestorm (New-52) is able to destroy a city, according to extremely powerful energy manipulators.

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Pre-52 FS is actually much more powerful. His fusion blasts have taken down the most powerful of beings, beings perhaps even more durable than Hulk.

In Firestorm #35, he was able to one-shot Kalibak, a New God, with a single powerful blast. Kalibak is a being with roughly Superman level durability, so it's an extremely impressive feat, especially given that in the very same issue he took down Orion without even breaking a sweat.

I would like to see some energy durability feats from Hulk before delving further into this topic.

Should Hulk manage to tank multiple blasts from Firestorm (which I sincerely believe he cannot), he can be put down in many other ways.

For one, Firestorm could simply opt to BFR him if he grows tired of Hulk...

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As we see here in Firestorm #35, he was able to easily send a few Parademons someplace else. I see no reason on why he could not do this for Hulk, especially since it is in character.

Then we also have the fact that Firestorm could use intangibility to prevent himself from ever being hit, as shown multiple times throughout the character's history, including this instance....

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Overall, Firestorm can defeat Hulk without too much trouble. He can't be hit because of intangibility, and has the BFR as well as the blast power to KO Hulk.

Blue Beetle vs. Bruce Banner // Nerve Strikes + Hacking

Blue Beetle is going to beat Banner rather easily.

Having no inherent superpowers on his own, Banner is a sitting duck for his technology getting hacked by a technopath, or simply getting one-shotted by a faster character.

Blue Beetle satisfies all of that criteria.

Considering that we know that Banner is tech-oriented, Beetle's opening move would be to hack him all of his technology and shut it down, just like he did against the Reach mothership in Blue Beetle #25.

If the scarab was able to hack an extremely advanced piece of alien technology, specifically an entire freaking mother-ship, he will certainly be able to take over Banner's tech and shut it down.

I will need to see some extremely impressive technopathy resistance feats for Banner's technology if you want to preclude getting hacked.

A way that Jaime can finish the job is to simply defeat Banner with one extremely potent neural blast.

Considering that the blast knocked out two superhumans (Plasmus and Silverback) in one hit, they will surely be able to incapacitate Banner, a mere human.

In conclusion, Banner's technology is useless due to Beetle's technopathy, and he can be efficaciously defeated with one potent neural blast.

Summary

  • My team is faster by a long shot.
  • Donna can easily incapacitate Cable with her Lasso of Persuasion.
  • Firestorm can blast Hulk to incapacitation, or simply BFR him if he proves too troublesome.
  • Blue Beetle can hack Banner's technology, and one-shot him with his neural scramblers.

Good luck, @ghostravage... let's have some fun with this, yeah?

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thedailybagel

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#3 thedailybagel  Moderator

Ooooh, looking good. I can see GR is going to have a few bones to pick with that post though :P

Tag for votes please guys.

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TheNewBlueBeetle007

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Ooooh, looking good. I can see GR is going to have a few bones to pick with that post though :P

Tag for votes please guys.

Well of course he will, otherwise there wouldn't be much of a debate now would there? :)

Will do.

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GhostRavage

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#5  Edited By GhostRavage

@thenewbluebeetle007: Alright mate, let's start this already!

Dr. Robert Bruce Banner aka. "The Technician"

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Robert Bruce Banner as you may already know is biographically stated to be the 4th smartest person in Marvel Earth and considered for me as THE smartest and most cunning of all the eggheads of the Marvel Universe thanks to Greg Pak's run on him and was temporarily serving as S.H.I.E.L.D's main scientific up to Indestructible Hulk issues. His main expertise is in the creation and application of both Gamma Energy and Old Power which includes the use of literally the most powerful type of radiation and tectonic movement respectively. As stated previously, Banner will play as the technician while using the infamous BannerTech in this match and his gear consists in:

  • Banner-Tech Armor
  • Gamma Shields
  • Old Power Shields
  • Multi-Purpose Stun Gun
  • Mirror Jacket
  • Gamma Domes
  • Gamma Solidifier
  • Hacking System
  • Time-Space Portal Satchel
  • Several other paraphernalia and weapons

For further information, here's Bruce Banner updated handbook entry from 2010:

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Hulk aka. "The Brawler"

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By far one of the most famous characters in fiction and honestly he doesn't need that big of an introduction given i'm pretty certain everyone will have at the very least the basic knowledge about him and his powerset. Anyways, Hulk will play as my Brawler considering his power set allows him to take an horrendous amount of damage only to become stronger if not put down and his feats go from city level up to planetary scale which i'm pretty sure will suffice in giving me a couple of wins in this tourney at the very least. Either way, as part of his power set we'll be using:

  • Super Strength
  • Super Durability
  • Super Reactions
  • Powerful Healing Factor
  • Rage Empowerment
  • BannerTech suit

Fro further information, here's Hulk's updated handbook entry from 2011:

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Cable aka. "The Wild Card"

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Nathan, also known as Cable is a time traveler mutant war hero with vast telekinetic and telepathic abilities coupled with the fact he's been forged by war which makes him an exceptional strategist with no quarrels of killing. His abilities range from being able to fight the Hulk while using telekinesis to actually override DNA and alter molecules to a very high degree whereas his telepathic abilities go from being totally impervious to Xavier and Jean Grey's probing abilities to actually overcome Hulk's legendary TP resistance while weakened but we're going to get into that later on. Within the gear and power set he'll be using here we have:

  • High end Telekinesis
  • High end Telepathy
  • High end Firearms
  • Matter Manipulation
  • Size Alteration
  • Deadpool's Healing Factor (Savior Cable had this)
  • Teleportation

For some further basic information about Cable's powerset and history, here is his his entry in Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: X-Men from 2005...

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With my characters introduced, let me go straight forward and showcase my strategy in this match while at the same time countering some of your points in yours given they won't even take place in this match for several reasons. It worths to note that my team is completely morals-off and without any self-restrain at all, thanks to the MARVELOUS perk.

Counters

Donna Troy vs. Cable

So all in all, Donna's speed is too much for Cable to handle, and she could easily blitz him.

But she isn't merely going to punch him (although that would probably work too). She knows how big of a threat Cable is, and won't waste any time incapacitating him. That's why she'll go straight for the Lasso of Persuasion.

So, overall, a blitz and then incapacitation with the Lasso will lead to Cable's downfall.

I was fairly certain that Donna was fast but i fail to see how does that mean she will blitz Cable. The fact you're claiming you were unimpressed with Cable's reactionary speed is beyond me considering he's capable of reacting to the highest speed allowed in this tourney by Wonder Woman's physical limitations, which is lightspeed. You already know this feat which happened in Cable & Deadpool #5 and considering it is blatantly intended to put Cable as fast as light with his reactions means he can hang with the fastest of characters here...

He's fast enough to react to someone who was stated twice to move as fast as the speed of light and in this instance he was moving even faster considering he arrived earlier than Cable's calculations and still Nathan was fast enough to react, block him with telekinesis and direct him into clashing with a building. Moreover, i think you're seriously underestimating Cable's combat speed considering he was still able to react to a speeding Silver Surfer who was fighting fast enough they were circumnavigating the entire globe almost instantly while de-atomizing everything around them... Hell, they even went from Providence to Sidney, Australia at insane speeds during Cable & Deadpool #10, but what's really impressive about the instance is the fact Cable could literally one shot Donna if she attempts to blitz him or engage in close combat with him considering he also managed to one shot Silver Surfer's indestructible board...

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Anyways, my main point here is, same as my previous match, blitzing Cable is a horrible strategy considering he has the fastest reflexes allowed in this tourney and coupled with the fact he's completely morals off and without any self-restrain means Cable can also apply very distinctive strategies with his telekinesis, like pressure in very soft areas of the body putting his foes in real pain which borders in torture, like he proved during Cable #90 when he was one shoting everyone in his path by putting pressure in the ear drums with his telekinesis and given the fact he has managed to overpower Hulk's charge with his telekinesis whilst being weakened means he has the means to put Donna on her knees while begging for death with this tactic...

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Concluding here, Cable is WAY and i mean WAY too deadly for Donna to simply overpower him, she doesn't have any counter for Cable's very unique telekinesis application and she doesn't have enough speed to blitz him like you're implying, hell, Donna going against the most versatile character in my team is not a good strategy at all, basically, you just sent your brawler to an assured death in the hands of a morals off Cable. Tsk Tsk... Moving on...

Blue Beetle vs. Dr. Bruce Banner

Blue Beetle is going to beat Banner rather easily.

Having no inherent superpowers on his own, Banner is a sitting duck for his technology getting hacked by a technopath, or simply getting one-shotted by a faster character.

Blue Beetle satisfies all of that criteria.

Considering that we know that Banner is tech-oriented, Beetle's opening move would be to hack him all of his technology and shut it down, just like he did against the Reach mothership in Blue Beetle #25.

This is an interesting approach considering it will involve the interception of Cable with his telekinesis as well if Blue Beetle decides to go for Banner, because he already knows Banner and knows he's the squishiest of my team. First of all, he will be restrained by Cable with his telekinesis giving Banner time to set up his almighty Gamma Dome neutralizing Blue Beetle's Beetle functions at the very least temporarily considering he managed to neutralize Prime Doom's technology during Incredible Hulks #606 when he disabled all his electronics incredibly fast.

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This becomes even more impressive when the fact Dr. Doom's technology is resistant enough to all kinds of harmful or invasive tactics to the point of being completely impervious to a wakandian EMP which neutralized all his Doom Bots as well as his automated defense system in Latveria during Black Panther #19...

Moreover, the fact Blue Beetle needed to trick the aliens into introducing a code in order to hack their central computer means Blue Beetle didn't actually hacked the system as easy as you claimed, is nothing like Banner's own tech which hacks simply by area of effect and goes from humiliating people like Tony Stark who actually hacked a Kree Mothership to also hack into Doom's systems too. Your scans are from Blue Beetle #25 and the Scarab managed to hack into the Mothership's systems because he was literally inside the ship, inert and seemingly dead while hacking into the central computer... He won't have the time nor the situational factors that revolved around that feat to perform the same here. Sorry. Now, could you show me feats for the Scarab being completely impervious to hacking or unaffected by something as Banner's Tech?

So basically, Banner Tech electronic displacement doesn't even work as an EMP but as an invasive hacking system that not even Dr. Doom can counter and considering he has managed to even humiliate Tony Stark with his hacking proficiency as proven during A+X #7 already speaks for itself considering Tony Stark has been able to hack into Kree Motherships without being enhanced by external forces nor Extremis Virus, which at the same time makes Banner's feat even more impressive considering Tony was actually infected with the Extremis Virus which allows him to process information in pico-seconds yet that didn't help him at all...

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All in all, Bruce Banner has the means to counter Blue Beetle's assault as far as feats go.

Firestorm vs Hulk

This one is a bit tricky, considering Hulk is horrendously resistant towards anything, i need you to confirm me what kind of energy projection feat you would like base Firestorm's beams off, i mean, Hulk has taken all types of beams with no harm whatsoever, going from beams of kinetic energy capable of shattering planets, blasts capable of turning an entire hemisphere to ashes and beams of sonic energy that could power up an entire continent, so let's arrive into the feats and start with the simple, common and standard ones. Between Incredible Hulk #6 and Incredible Hulk #7 Hulk literally took a island-sized nuke to the face and wasn't even bothered by it...

I'm using this feat because it involves several types of energy, concussive force, heat-based damage, radiation and overall destructive capabilities. Considering the only quantifiable feat we have is him recreating a force that could destroy a city, i'll use Hulk being completely unbothered by a nuke which decimated an entire island right right in face. I don't think Hulk would be easily put down as you're implying and the fact he can become stronger every second the fight starts and the fact he's completely lacking morals in this situation would just complicate things for you and he will totally use the deadliest of forces in his power set to put the harm on anyone who opposes him. As per your BFR tactic, i see no reason why Banner couldn't locate him and either him or Cable teleport him back to the battleground, either Cable or Banner can locate him both telepathically or with Banner-Tech, the latter showcased in Incredible Hulks #617 when he target-locked Jennifer Walters and teleport directly to her.

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Overall, your team's strategy seems a bit weak considering you're pretty much tunnel vision your team's capabilities in 1v1 scenarios without exploiting the true potential of a team battle, which is exploiting the best of each one either in 2v1 matches or simply crowd control while dealing with a 3v1 scenario which is essentially what my team is going to do here, same as my previous match in this tourney.

My Team's Strategy

Cable's Offensive

Considering Cable is one if not the strongest telepath in this tourney, let's apply what has been said into this match. Cable is going to play the Wild Card here as well as granting quite supportive abilities to his team, first of all Cable is going to mind-link to Bruce Banner and Hulk (his resistance has been breached by Cable and Indestructible Hulk mindset does not have that much resistance either) with himself so they have better communication and chemistry while battling in the field, as he prove in Cable #41 when he connected with Bishop so efficiently...

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After he connects himself with them, his strategical prowess would be exploitable to the max considering the huge arsenal he has to level the field in this match, things teleportation, invisibility and flat out durability will be included in the multiple chess pieces he has in this match, speaking of, he was stated in Cable #92 to have quite decent amount of knowledge on how to analyze several scenarios battles just like what chess represents...

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Considering all of them are min-linked, the thought process, planning and exchange of approaches is going to be significantly faster than normal given it will be done at the speed of thought, hence the ability. That said, with my team already mind-linked they will share strategies with incredible speed while approaching on the offensive.

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Given the fact both Blue Beetle and Donna Troy lack feats to suggest they can withstand a telepathic assault done by Cable, he's going to blatantly affect them to the point of doing exactly what he wants, even trying to fight Firestorm himself an using the same Donna's Lasso of Persuasion against him, just like he proved during Cable #25 when he managed to make Stryfe's guard do exactly what Cable wanted.

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With this said, i'm positive Blue Beetle has resistance to telepathic assaults up to certain degree but he hasn't encountered someone as powerful as Cable in that area. After most of the scenario is secured, Cable could easily opt to incapacitate Donna via telekinesis by erasing everything she knows about combat and turning her into a 3 year old child mentally wise, like he did during Cable #93...

This was forwardly explained as telekinetic assault in by Cable during Cable #94. He said that he, as a telekinetic, he know how to block the blood flow of certain vessels making the brain lose memories and years in an instant, Donna has no way to counter this and it's completely in-character for Cable to do it in this scenario considering he has no morals at all to restrain him, the best thing about everything is haven't even touched the best tactics to apply here.

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Banner's Offensive

Moving on, in the mean time Banner will be setting up the Gamma Dome which is going to take him no more than 1 second to activate which will neutralize any possible tech that isn't labeled as Banner-Tech and will form a gamma field around the battleground that will either disintegrate or greatly harm anyone which isn't a Gamma based creature, which Banner and Hulk both are and Cable is more than capable of teleporting wherever he likes, so if by any chance either of your characters is punched to the gamma wall, they'll be highly affected by it, increasing my chances of simply beating you through raw offensive.

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After he pulls up the Gamma Dome, he's going to watch from the bleachers and act if any technological assistance is needed, which brings us to Hulk's role in this match. Take everything he can for his team and shrugged it off like the badass he is.

Hulk's Offensive

Lacking morals and being completely and not holding back at all, the fact Firestorm goes for him probably is the best for my team considering Hulk can take what Firestorm can shoot at him. Considering Firestorm can be harmed physically as proven in Fury of Firestorm #64, i see no reason outside intangibility to imply he won't be put down by Hulk that way. In fact, my team is actually prepared to counter intangibility given the fact Banner's multi-task taser gun is equipped with an option that allows him to forcibly solidify people in intangible state, allowing Hulk to smash the hell out of him hard enough to be greatly phased or simply KO'd by a superior character with punches capable of literally shaking the Earth effortlessly as proven during Incredible Hulk #3...

Anyways, i'm almost sure Firestorm won't start intangible but even if he does, Banner will act right away against it, as proven in Incredible Hulks #608 when he froze Red Ghost which is an intangible being and forcibly solidified him making him unable to move while being completely damageable by physical damage, this will be even more likely considering Firestorm won't be expecting such a weapon to begin with as it does not belongs to basic knowledge at all.

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After Firestorm is in this state, there's nothing stopping him from Hulk's grounding punch. Anyways, i think it's enough for an opener, it took me a while to write this so enjoy the read mate. Looking forward to your reply, this might be one of the most entertaining debates i will have in this site. Kudos.

To summarize

  • Banner has countermeasures for Blue Beetle's assault whereas Blue Beetle is lacking ways to deal with Banner's own assault.
  • Donna isn't fast enough and her way to deal with Cable would prove futile, actually turning into the worst tactic your team can opt for considering she can be easily disabled by Cable's huge versatility gap and similar reactionary speed. However, you can't react for something you can't either see, hear, smell nor feel before it's too late. Likewise, Cable's assault is near unstoppable and is going to be forwardly supported by Banner's technology over Blue Beetle's Scarab, which means both approaches are back up plans for each.
  • Hulk is durable enough to tank everything your team will dish and he's the #1 tank in this entire tourney and i'm willing to argue insightfully this point and Firestorm, which essentially is immune to telepathy to go for the sole guy who could efficiently withstand his assault seems a bit unpractical to me, too bad you can't change your strategy after knowing this. On the other hand Hulk is incredibly attuned to deal with anyone's physical durability here by raw strength, backed up with his teammates powers and assaults.

Ball's on your side mate, good luck!

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tag

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@ghostravage: interesting. Nice response, but nothing I can't counter! :)

at latest I will have a post up by Monday.

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tag 4 votes...

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@ghostravage: Sorry for taking so long, I've been extremely busy as you can probably tell by my activity.

I have finished my response, and after revising it once or twice I will post it.

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Round 2

@ghostravage: here we go. Sorry for taking so long, but between a new job and family my schedule is packed

Counters

Donna Troy vs. Cable

So all in all, Donna's speed is too much for Cable to handle, and she could easily blitz him.

But she isn't merely going to punch him (although that would probably work too). She knows how big of a threat Cable is, and won't waste any time incapacitating him. That's why she'll go straight for the Lasso of Persuasion.

So, overall, a blitz and then incapacitation with the Lasso will lead to Cable's downfall.

I was fairly certain that Donna was fast but i fail to see how does that mean she will blitz Cable. The fact you're claiming you were unimpressed with Cable's reactionary speed is beyond me considering he's capable of reacting to the highest speed allowed in this tourney by Wonder Woman's physical limitations, which is lightspeed.

When was it ever stated that Wonder Woman's physicals were limited to lightspeed? That notion is completely misconstrued and wrong. Wonder Woman has fought blood-lusted Kryptonians, tagged Cheetah, and hit the Black Flash. She's far faster than light, and even double the speed of light.

You already know this feat which happened in Cable & Deadpool #5 and considering it is blatantly intended to put Cable as fast as light with his reactions means he can hang with the fastest of characters here...

He's fast enough to react to someone who was stated twice to move as fast as the speed of light and in this instance he was moving even faster considering he arrived earlier than Cable's calculations and still Nathan was fast enough to react, block him with telekinesis and direct him into clashing with a building.

There are a few key facts that you're missing here.

First off, the opponent that he had been fighting that opponent for longer than the three pages you posted. In the fight, the same opponent actually did manage to blitz him, even after Cable was able to look in his direction.

In addition, Cable was only able to react to the blitz after he injured the opponent with debris in the page prior to the one you posted.

In this scenario, the opponent started from space to Cable's location, giving him far more time than he will have here. As we can see in the very same issue, Cable can't react to opponents over shorter distances given the smaller amount of time that it takes them to reach him.

The distance between us is far less than a mere mile, as BoschePG and I set it to a Dragon Ball Z arena. Using a speed feat from space is far different from the battle at hand.

In addition, if Cable cannot react then he is out of the match for good. Donna can make him do anything she wants with the Lasso of Persuasion, and that includes telepathy, which both of your other characters are very susceptible to.

So, to summarize, Cable didn't actually react to the opponent and was previously blitzed, and Donna is still faster than that opponent anyway.

Moreover, i think you're seriously underestimating Cable's combat speed considering he was still able to react to a speeding Silver Surfer who was fighting fast enough they were circumnavigating the entire globe almost instantly while de-atomizing everything around them... Hell, they even went from Providence to Sidney, Australia at insane speeds during Cable & Deadpool #10,

A quick google search shows us that the distance from Rhode Island to Australia is a mere ten thousand miles. If we set an "instant" to a single second (honestly it should be more given that the two were conversing), then it is still 1/18 of the speed of light, which means that it isn't impressive at all in this debate given that Donna has blitzed and caught up to opponents whose reaction times far exceed the speed of light and double the speed of light.

but what's really impressive about the instance is the fact Cable could literally one shot Donna if she attempts to blitz him or engage in close combat with him considering he also managed to one shot Silver Surfer's indestructible board...

Frankly, I don't see what's stopping Donna from evading the attack with her speed...

Anyways, my main point here is, same as my previous match, blitzing Cable is a horrible strategy considering he has the fastest reflexes allowed in this tourney

I don't understand how you think Cable has the fastest reflexes allowed in this tourney. He is below Wonder Woman by a significant margin, and below Donna as well considering that she caught up to Jesse Quick and was proven to be faster than an alternate reality Flash, the former being easily double the speed of light and the latter carrying the mantle of the Flash in his world....

and coupled with the fact he's completely morals off and without any self-restrain means Cable can also apply very distinctive strategies with his telekinesis, like pressure in very soft areas of the body putting his foes in real pain which borders in torture, like he proved duringCable #90 when he was one shoting everyone in his path by putting pressure in the ear drums with his telekinesis and given the fact he has managed to overpower Hulk's charge with his telekinesis whilst being weakened means he has the means to put Donna on her knees while begging for death with this tactic...

Frankly this doesn't even matter because Cable does not have reflexes double the speed of light like you're insinuating although Donna has blitzed individuals with that level of speed before; furthermore, Cable has no counter at all to Donna's magical Lasso of Persuasion.

Concluding here, Cable is WAY and i mean WAY too deadly for Donna to simply overpower him, she doesn't have any counter for Cable's very unique telekinesis application and she doesn't have enough speed to blitz him like you're implying, hell, Donna going against the most versatile character in my team is not a good strategy at all, basically, you just sent your brawler to an assured death in the hands of a morals off Cable. Tsk Tsk... Moving on...

While versatility can be useful, it doesn't matter if a character cannot is to slow to preclude a blitz and one-shot, which Donna is completely capable of.

If two characters can one-shot one another, the faster one wins. Donna is the faster one.

Blue Beetle vs. Dr. Bruce Banner

Blue Beetle is going to beat Banner rather easily.

Having no inherent superpowers on his own, Banner is a sitting duck for his technology getting hacked by a technopath, or simply getting one-shotted by a faster character.

Blue Beetle satisfies all of that criteria.

Considering that we know that Banner is tech-oriented, Beetle's opening move would be to hack him all of his technology and shut it down, just like he did against the Reach mothership in Blue Beetle #25.

This is an interesting approach considering it will involve the interception of Cable with his telekinesis as well if Blue Beetle decides to go for Banner, because he already knows Banner and knows he's the squishiest of my team. First of all, he will be restrained by Cable with his telekinesis giving Banner time to set up his almighty Gamma Dome neutralizing Blue Beetle's Beetle functions at the very least temporarily considering he managed to neutralize Prime Doom's technology during Incredible Hulks #606 when he disabled all his electronics incredibly fast.

This becomes even more impressive when the fact Dr. Doom's technology is resistant enough to all kinds of harmful or invasive tactics to the point of being completely impervious to a wakandian EMP which neutralized all his Doom Bots as well as his automated defense system in Latveria during Black Panther #19...

So essentially, you're telling me that Cable, who you haven't even proved can react to Donna Troy, is going to somehow fend off Donna at the same time that he restrains Blue Beetle? That's not working out at all.

Not only does Cable not have the reaction times to take down Donna, but he also doesn't know anything about any member of my team. Jaime isn't an idiot; he's not going to scream "HEY CABLE I'M HACKING YOUR TEAMMATE PLEASE DON'T INTERVENE," he's just going to do it. Considering that hacking doesn't actually require any movement it's perfectly feasible that Cable doesn't intervene by lack of perception, not only because he does not possess the speed but also because he does not know what is going on.

In addition, Blue Beetle could simply hack all of Banner's tech before Banner sets up the Gamma dome, or even one-shot Banner with the neural blasts if the hacking doesn't work.

Moreover, the fact Blue Beetle needed to trick the aliens into introducing a code in order to hack their central computer means Blue Beetle didn't actually hacked the system as easy as you claimed, is nothing like Banner's own tech which hacks simply by area of effect and goes from humiliating people like Tony Stark who actually hacked a Kree Mothership to also hack into Doom's systems too. Your scans are from Blue Beetle #25 and the Scarab managed to hack into the Mothership's systems because he was literally inside the ship, inert and seemingly dead while hacking into the central computer... He won't have the time nor the situational factors that revolved around that feat to perform the same here. Sorry.

Sorry, do you mean this code?

No Caption Provided

I don't see how entering random numbers has any impact on the Reach systems.

In addition, I can't fathom how being on the interior of the ship, nearly dead, would have any impact, positive or negative, on the scarab's hacking capabilities. We are fairly close to one another in this match; the conditions are similar enough.

Also, as a somewhat unrelated note, I'm not entirely sure why you told me what the issue number was given that I had already stated that it was Blue Beetle #25 in my own post.

Now, could you show me feats for the Scarab being completely impervious to hacking or unaffected by something as Banner's Tech?

So basically, Banner Tech electronic displacement doesn't even work as an EMP but as an invasive hacking system that not even Dr. Doom can counter and considering he has managed to even humiliate Tony Stark with his hacking proficiency as proven during A+X #7already speaks for itself considering Tony Stark has been able to hack into Kree Motherships without being enhanced by external forces nor Extremis Virus, which at the same time makes Banner's feat even more impressive considering Tony was actually infected with the Extremis Virus which allows him to process information in pico-seconds yet that didn't help him at all...

All in all, Bruce Banner has the means to counter Blue Beetle's assault as far as feats go.

I find it interesting how you failed to even mention the neural blasts in your response; it's an integral part of my strategy and you didn't talk about it even once.

I've mentioned repeatedly that if the initial assault didn't work, Jaime could just as easily opt to use his blasts on Banner, which would surely incapacitate him as they already incapacitated two metahumans who have far above peak human durability (and frankly Banner probably isn't even peak human)...

I believe I've shown that the "circumstances" you mentioned had little to no effect on Jaime's hacking abilities, and that Banner could easily get hacked before he sets up the Gamma Dome.

Your hacking doesn't matter in the slightest because Blue Beetle can disable all of your tech before Banner presses a button, or fry his nervous system engendering incapacitation.

Firestorm vs Hulk

This one is a bit tricky, considering Hulk is horrendously resistant towards anything, i need you to confirm me what kind of energy projection feat you would like base Firestorm's beams off, i mean, Hulk has taken all types of beams with no harm whatsoever, going from beams of kinetic energy capable of shattering planets, blasts capable of turning an entire hemisphere to ashes and beams of sonic energy that could power up an entire continent, so let's arrive into the feats and start with the simple, common and standard ones. BetweenIncredible Hulk #6 and Incredible Hulk #7 Hulk literally took a island-sized nuke to the face and wasn't even bothered by it...

I'm using this feat because it involves several types of energy, concussive force, heat-based damage, radiation and overall destructive capabilities. Considering the only quantifiable feat we have is him recreating a force that could destroy a city, i'll use Hulk being completely unbothered by a nuke which decimated an entire island right right in face. I don't think Hulk would be easily put down as you're implying and the fact he can become stronger every second the fight starts and the fact he's completely lacking morals in this situation would just complicate things for you and he will totally use the deadliest of forces in his power set to put the harm on anyone who opposes him.

I suppose that one-shotting an amped version of Kalibak isn't quantifiable then, when Kalibak is a New God near Superman level in durability....

In any case, there are plenty more feats to draw from to showcase Firestorm's extraordinary blasting power, most notably from Firestorm #17 when he one-shotted Black Adam, one of the most durable beings in the DC universe....

It's worth noting that Jason Rusch actually got a charge from Martin Stein during this encounter; however, not only was he previously drained by one of Lex Luthor's machines, but Martin Stein is actually included in a composite Firestorm, so he could easily replicate a blast of this power against Hulk.

Considering that Black Adam has effortlessly laughed off blasts from Dr. Fate and heat vision from an angry Power Girl, each many times more powerful than a simple nuclear bomb, Firestorm could still defeat Hulk with blasts, going by feats.

As per your BFR tactic, i see no reason why Banner couldn't locate him and either him or Cable teleport him back to the battleground, either Cable or Banner can locate him both telepathically or with Banner-Tech, the latter showcased in Incredible Hulks #617 when he target-locked Jennifer Walters and teleport directly to her.

You need to clarify where Walters was in that scan and the distance that your team's teleportation covers. Firestorm can send Hulk light years away using Zeta Radiation or send him to another dimension, the Firestorm Matrix, so I'm going to need more feats.

Overall, your team's strategy seems a bit weak considering you're pretty much tunnel vision your team's capabilities in 1v1 scenarios without exploiting the true potential of a team battle, which is exploiting the best of each one either in 2v1 matches or simply crowd control while dealing with a 3v1 scenario which is essentially what my team is going to do here, same as my previous match in this tourney.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. In a "team battle", your team is over-reliant on interference from a teammate. In this battle, you've essentially hinged your entire strategy on Cable's relatively weak reaction times; if Cable doesn't interfere then Banner gets one-shotted or hacked and Hulk subsequently gets BFR'd rather easily; meanwhile, Donna and Firestorm could frankly solo this using a method I will elaborate on later...

Countering Opponent's Strategy

> Cable's Offensive

Considering Cable is one if not the strongest telepath in this tourney, let's apply what has been said into this match. Cable is going to play the Wild Card here as well as granting quite supportive abilities to his team, first of all Cable is going to mind-link to Bruce Banner and Hulk (his resistance has been breached by Cable and Indestructible Hulk mindset does not have that much resistance either) with himself so they have better communication and chemistry while battling in the field, as he prove in Cable #41 when he connected with Bishop so efficiently...

No Caption Provided

After he connects himself with them, his strategical prowess would be exploitable to the max considering the huge arsenal he has to level the field in this match, things teleportation, invisibility and flat out durability will be included in the multiple chess pieces he has in this match, speaking of, he was stated in Cable #92 to have quite decent amount of knowledge on how to analyze several scenarios battles just like what chess represents...

No Caption Provided

Considering all of them are min-linked, the thought process, planning and exchange of approaches is going to be significantly faster than normal given it will be done at the speed of thought, hence the ability. That said, with my team already mind-linked they will share strategies with incredible speed while approaching on the offensive.

====================================================================================================================================

Given the fact both Blue Beetle and Donna Troy lack feats to suggest they can withstand a telepathic assault done by Cable, he's going to blatantly affect them to the point of doing exactly what he wants, even trying to fight Firestorm himself an using the same Donna's Lasso of Persuasion against him, just like he proved during Cable #25 when he managed to make Stryfe's guard do exactly what Cable wanted.

No Caption Provided

With this said, i'm positive Blue Beetle has resistance to telepathic assaults up to certain degree but he hasn't encountered someone as powerful as Cable in that area. After most of the scenario is secured, Cable could easily opt to incapacitate Donna via telekinesis by erasing everything she knows about combat and turning her into a 3 year old child mentally wise, like he did during Cable #93...

This was forwardly explained as telekinetic assault in by Cable during Cable #94. He said that he, as a telekinetic, he know how to block the blood flow of certain vessels making the brain lose memories and years in an instant, Donna has no way to counter this and it's completely in-character for Cable to do it in this scenario considering he has no morals at all to restrain him, the best thing about everything is haven't even touched the best tactics to apply here.

No Caption Provided

So, to summarize, you're going to first mind-link your team, then telepathically assault Donna and Jaime, and finally turn this into a five on one against Firestorm or kill Donna using telekinesis.

Let's go over why that won't work. Aside from the fact that Cable is going to be blitzed, my team has counters to your entire strategy.

First of all, Donna does have a degree of telepathy resistance. In Justice League #49. Here, not only does she break free of a telepath's hold, but she actually manages to bend the telepath's very mind to her will and turn the telepath's mind to a primitive state, effectively having him "mind-rape" himself with her sheer willpower.

While it may not be feasible that she actually take control of Cable's mind, she is going to be able to resist the assault. The telepath pictured here is known as Bogeyman, and he managed to put Jade under his illusion until Donna turned his mind to putty. This is important because Jade is empowered by the Starheart, a mystical power that grants high-end telepathy resistance; its users have resisted Brainwave and other powerful telepaths.

All in all, Donna's willpower grants her immense TP resistance and I don't see Cable mind-raping her anytime soon.

Blue Beetle's case is much of the same. In Blue Beetle #2 a telepath named Probe tried to invade his mind, but the Scarab fried her mind.

While Probe isn't as impressive as Bogeyman or Cable, it's still an impressive feat in that it completely knocked her out, meaning that Cable isn't getting through anytime soon.

But in all honesty none of this matters because Donna, who is on the same level of speed as low level Speed Force users, can blitz Cable and defeat him with the Lasso.

> Banner's Offensive

Moving on, in the mean time Banner will be setting up the Gamma Dome which is going to take him no more than 1 second to activate which will neutralize any possible tech that isn't labeled as Banner-Tech and will form a gamma field around the battleground that will either disintegrate or greatly harm anyone which isn't a Gamma based creature, which Banner and Hulk both are and Cable is more than capable of teleporting wherever he likes, so if by any chance either of your characters is punched to the gamma wall, they'll be highly affected by it, increasing my chances of simply beating you through raw offensive.

No Caption Provided

After he pulls up the Gamma Dome, he's going to watch from the bleachers and act if any technological assistance is needed, which brings us to Hulk's role in this match. Take everything he can for his team and shrugged it off like the badass he is.

You picked the wrong team to use Gamma against. Firestorm can literally just transmute any Gamma Radiation away, as he has done so before.

Here, Firestorm turned all the Gamma Radiation in the area into light. I don't see how he couldn't do the same here. He could also transmute all of Banner's tech.

> Hulk's Offensive

Lacking morals and being completely and not holding back at all, the fact Firestorm goes for him probably is the best for my team considering Hulk can take what Firestorm can shoot at him. Considering Firestorm can be harmed physically as proven in Fury of Firestorm #64, i see no reason outside intangibility to imply he won't be put down by Hulk that way.

You're using a book from nearly 30 years ago as your proof for Firestorm being harmed by physical attacks? You can do better mate. But I do agree that Firestorm can be harmed physically, so let's move on.

In fact, my team is actually prepared to counter intangibility given the fact Banner's multi-task taser gun is equipped with an option that allows him to forcibly solidify people in intangible state, allowing Hulk to smash the hell out of him hard enough to be greatly phased or simply KO'd by a superior character with punches capable of literally shaking the Earth effortlessly as proven during Incredible Hulk #3...

Anyways, i'm almost sure Firestorm won't start intangible but even if he does, Banner will act right away against it, as proven inIncredible Hulks #608 when he froze Red Ghost which is an intangible being and forcibly solidified him making him unable to move while being completely damageable by physical damage, this will be even more likely considering Firestorm won't be expecting such a weapon to begin with as it does not belongs to basic knowledge at all.

No Caption Provided

After Firestorm is in this state, there's nothing stopping him from Hulk's grounding punch. Anyways, i think it's enough for an opener, it took me a while to write this so enjoy the read mate.

Your contention intrinsically relies upon Banner tagging Firestorm with his gun. Firestorm isn't simply going to stand there like a moron, he's going to dodge the beam especially when considering that his minor precognition could potentially alert him to the attack.

Regardless, all iterations of Firestorm are massively hypersonic and I'm going to need feats to suggest that Banner could actually tag him.

Soloing

Donna Troy can solo this.

I believe that I've validated a blitz against Cable. Considering that she can make Cable do whatever she wants, she could easily tell Cable to telepathically and telekinetically assault his teammates, and given that you yourself have said that neither Banner nor Hulk has the capacity to deal with an attack of this magnitude your team will be taken down rather efficaciously.

Firestorm can solo this as well.

He can destroy Cable's mind with a blast:

No Caption Provided

Then transmute all of Banner's technology, as Banner has no resistance to matter manipulation as far as I know, and finally BFR Hulk for a win.

Summary

  • You hinged your strategy on Cable actually being able to react to a blitz and helping your teammates out. Your team's inherent interdependence means that if Cable goes down, the rest do as well.
  • Donna can blitz Cable.
  • Firestorm can transmute all of Banner's technology.
  • Blue Beetle can one-shot Banner, or hack him.

Looking forward to a reply mate.

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@thenewbluebeetle007: T4V!

And btw, what happened to me and Darkraidens match? I don't think a winner was decided?

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#14  Edited By GhostRavage

@thenewbluebeetle007: It's ok mate, i was really looking forward to your reply! Anyways, let's keep this up as soon as possible.

Counters for Donna

When was it ever stated that Wonder Woman's physicals were limited to lightspeed? That notion is completely misconstrued and wrong. Wonder Woman has fought blood-lusted Kryptonians, tagged Cheetah, and hit the Black Flash. She's far faster than light, and even double the speed of light.

Wonder Woman's highest speed feat is entering the Speed Force with Jesse Quick by trying to get a hold at her and by Jay Garrick's own admission in order to tab into the speed force like that you need to go as fast as light, but that does not put her above the speed of light, much less twice the speed of light movement-wise. Fighting Kryptonians is not a light speed feat, not only because there's a ton of on-panel information that needed to be pointed out in order to validate the feat, most likely the fact they were actually moving at light speed which in any case even Superman has failed to move at such speeds on Earth due to friction, fighting Cheetah applies on the same case-scenario, why would you imply Cheetah was fighting faster than light, for all we know she could have been fighting at Mach 800 or less as no real speed indicator was mentioned in the instance, same goes to Black Flash (please do not confuse my skepticism towards your argument by skepticism towards Black Flash's potential). Either way, i can agree with Wonder Woman reacting faster than light but i do not agree with Wonder Woman being faster than light, much less twice the speed of light in combat movement and bullrushes. That said, how about you show evidence of Donna Troy's supposed potential as the real Wonder Woman considering all her feats are nothing but a pale shadow of Wonder Woman's and catching up with Jesse Quick without any real speed indicator falls short in your argument. Sorry.

There are a few key facts that you're missing here.

First off, the opponent that he had been fighting that opponent for longer than the three pages you posted. In the fight, the same opponent actually did manage to blitz him, even after Cable was able to look in his direction.

In addition, Cable was only able to react to the blitz after he injured the opponent with debris in the page prior to the one you posted.

Not entirely true at all mate. The scan you're talking about is Cable restraining him with piles of steel and metal debris to trap him to then teleport him away. He wasn't harmed, Cable just did that in order to gain some time and gather information from the blue Cultist. Moreover, Cable still perceived him when he freed himself from the trap and manage to control him at the speed of light into clashing with the building, on top of that he was already aware he was traveling faster than previously calculated and arrived earlier, he even had his shield up just as soon as Lightmaster broke free. As per the supposed blitz with an aware Cable, it didn't happen like that. Cable was speaking with him and he was affected by Deadpool's persona due to sharing some kind of perpetual space during the issue and he himself claims so when he gets hit 3 times by Lightmaster.

No Caption Provided

Basically, at this point of battle Cable wasn't even trying to fight back and was just babbling Deadpool style without taking any countermeasures against Lightmaster, something like this won't happen in this scenario because Cable is completely morals off and with no self-restrain at all and the fact he managed to control himself precisely after this point and took everything else seriously. It worths to note that during this fight, a quite huge amount of his concentration was used to keep the entirety of Providence floating in the air via telekinesis and still was fast enough to react to an speeding Lightmaster.

In this scenario, the opponent started from space to Cable's location, giving him far more time than he will have here. As we can see in the very same issue, Cable can't react to opponents over shorter distances given the smaller amount of time that it takes them to reach him.

The distance between us is far less than a mere mile, as BoschePG and I set it to a Dragon Ball Z arena. Using a speed feat from space is far different from the battle at hand.

Again, this is not accurate as Cable already had his shields up before Lightmaster arrived on Earth and knew he broke free and had them up already rather instantly. Moreover, he still managed to control him at lightspeed into crashing with the building, is not something that hard to get, if he managed to control someone at that speed, that means he can react at such speeds. Even though there's dialogue there, Lightmaster was blatantly shown as a ray of light with afterimages while moving precisely to imply he was moving at such speeds. There's no reason to believe Cable won't react to her. Not to mention that in order to actually figure out Lightmaster was arriving earlier he needs to be able to track his path, which in any case he did solely by reactions considering he's unable to affect Lightmaster telepathically because all his brain patterns are pure light. There isn't any way to counter this feat.

In addition, if Cable cannot react then he is out of the match for good. Donna can make him do anything she wants with the Lasso of Persuasion, and that includes telepathy, which both of your other characters are very susceptible to.

So, to summarize, Cable didn't actually react to the opponent and was previously blitzed, and Donna is still faster than that opponent anyway.

He can react and i'm positive she won't be able to overcome Cable's will, his will is strong enough to go against literally everybody including his father and a bunch of friends. His will is strong enough to even fight Silver Surfer and make him compare him to Galactus. Good luck with that Lasso, as it is obviously a not 100% successful strategy, even less so against Cable's Will... She's going to be one shot'd if she comes near him, she's going to be mind controlled and used a enemy to her teammates or she's going to be teleported outside the Gamma Dome making her unable to come inside again.

Donna isn't faster and you lack evidence to support this point. Basically, you're going off a rumor she's anywhere near Wonder Woman, let alone as fast while at the same time attempting to debunk Cable's feat with an insufficient argument.

A quick google search shows us that the distance from Rhode Island to Australia is a mere ten thousand miles. If we set an "instant" to a single second (honestly it should be more given that the two were conversing), then it is still 1/18 of thespeed of light, which means that it isn't impressive at all in this debate given that Donna has blitzed and caught up to opponents whose reaction times far exceed the speed of light and double the speed of light.

The problem is Cable was impeding Silver Surfer from taking him out of Providence because the city would have fall, basically, he was pushing Silver Surfer back when they were grabbing each other, that's the reason why they didn't arrive earlier and they still arrived to Australia. Regardless, you're basing your argument off the fallacy you think speedsters are always moving at the speed of light and there's no real objective indicator that Jesse Quick was moving that fast nor any other character you've mentioned so far to be honest and apologies for my harshness but don't give me that crappy argument of dialogues in between fights considering the same can be said about the sole speed feat you've used for Donna... She was calling Jesse and managed to pronounce her name before she left the corner of that building, so it wasn't light speed and your own approach is enough to deal with it.

Frankly, I don't see what's stopping Donna from evading the attack with her speed...

Telekinetic hold and telepathic assault, you need to open your eyes mate. Donna is fighting a far smarter and deadlier opponent than her.

I don't understand how you think Cable has the fastest reflexes allowed in this tourney. He is below Wonder Woman by a significant margin, and below Donna as well considering that she caught up to Jesse Quick and was proven to be faster than an alternate reality Flash, the former being easily double the speed of light and the latter carrying the mantle of the Flash in his world....

I was under the impression the top was lightspeed because around that level are the highest reactionary speed feats of Wonder Woman, but if it's beyond that point, sure, why not. Regardless, i think you're overblowing Jesse's instance as well as Black Flash's, show me any objectiveness in those feats that irrefutably prove they were moving either at or twice the speed of light. As far as i can tell, you haven't shown anything to suggest she moves that fast and your feats are easily questionable.

Frankly this doesn't even matter because Cable does not have reflexes double the speed of light like you're insinuating although Donna has blitzed individuals with that level of speed before; furthermore, Cable has no counter at all to Donna's magical Lasso of Persuasion.

Ok, more speed arguments. I'm going to go ahead and refer you to the previous paragraphs. Anyways, Donna's Lasso of persuasion is bound to her Iron Will, but the fact Cable's Will was compared to Galactus himself i think says enough about his will, he won't be easily Persuaded and even when she used it on Etrigan he resisted it for enough time to give Cable the chance to TP her into a carrot. Likewise, you have no real counter for the massive telepathic assault Cable is going to attempt in this match. Again, good luck there.

While versatility can be useful, it doesn't matter if a character cannot is to slow to preclude a blitz and one-shot, which Donna is completely capable of.

If two characters can one-shot one another, the faster one wins. Donna is the faster one.

Versatility and enough speed seals the deal. Enough for speed i would say.

Counters for Blue Beetle

So essentially, you're telling me that Cable, who you haven't even proved can react to Donna Troy, is going to somehow fend off Donna at the same time that he restrains Blue Beetle? That's not working out at all.

Yes, with the exception that it is Donna whose supposed speed is unfounded here. I don't understand how it wouldn't work, Cable has done exactly the same almost effortlessly during Cable Annual from 1999 where he fought 4 foes while invading their minds, while putting them in a telekinetic hold, while making them do what he wants, while reflecting projectiles faster than a heartbeat and directing them into desired foes, let alone disassembling their armors and performing an invasive yet probing telepathic assault at the same time...

He's known to be able to multitask like this so i see no reason why he wouldn't do it to actually protect someone he knows can't take punishment and he's completely morals off and without self-restrain, he's still by far, the best strategist in this match and he surely won't decrease his chances of winning by letting his teammates fall easily, he's going to protect them and put the real hurt on the enemy as quick and efficiently as possible. Moving on...

Not only does Cable not have the reaction times to take down Donna, but he also doesn't know anything about any member of my team. Jaime isn't an idiot; he's not going to scream "HEY CABLE I'M HACKING YOUR TEAMMATE PLEASE DON'T INTERVENE," he's just going to do it. Considering that hacking doesn't actually require any movement it's perfectly feasible that Cable doesn't intervene by lack of perception, not only because he does not possess the speed but also because he does not know what is going on.

The reaction time has been addressed extensively, i think your entire strategy revolves too much on Donna supposedly blitzing Cable when in reality she's lacking real speed feats to suggest she can actually perform that strategy, she's slow by Cable's standards in my humble opinion and of course, based on your argument as well. He also doesn't need to know who your members are, he only have 2 missions here regardless of the foe, he needs to protect his teammates and he needs to beat the opponents, so any countermeasures he takes is going to accomplish both tasks. The fact that by your own feats the Scarab needs to be unplugged from Jamie and literally connected to the machine or technology that it is going to hack means his hacking capabilities are rather useless, hell, let me go ahead and crop exactly the panels where this fact is exploited between Blue Beetle #24 and Blue Beetle #25...

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Basically, the only reason the scarab performed such thing was because it was blatantly plugged into the Mothership's main computer which allowed it to hack into all the defense systems and all that jada jada, hardly a feat like BannerTech which hacks by Area of Effect and hacks people who is actually protected against it rather instantly. Hardly a counter for Banner's tech. So he's still going to be telekinetically restrained and perhaps even stripped from the Scarab the same way he did to The Marauders.

I don't see how entering random numbers has any impact on the Reach systems.

In addition, I can't fathom how being on the interior of the ship, nearly dead, would have any impact, positive or negative, on the scarab's hacking capabilities. We are fairly close to one another in this match; the conditions are similar enough.

Also, as a somewhat unrelated note, I'm not entirely sure why you told me what the issue number was given that I had already stated that it was Blue Beetle #25 in my own post.

The numbers were just a diversion to make people focus on Jamie while the Scarab hacked into the mothership's systems as it is explicitly stated in the scans. No no no... It is I who can't fathom how you could unintentionally overlook or purposely neglect the fact the scarab was directly hooked into the central computer and didn't hacked the same way BannerTech does, which is the way you're implying is going to happen. Proximity only strengthen my chances of hacking you. As per the issue number, i mentioned it because i actually searched for the issues and found out they were for his seventh volume, and the scans you posted are from Blue Beetle #24, not 25 which just shows the after effects of the hacking procedure. Apologies if it was seen differently.

I find it interesting how you failed to even mention the neural blasts in your response; it's an integral part of my strategy and you didn't talk about it even once.

I've mentioned repeatedly that if the initial assault didn't work, Jaime could just as easily opt to use his blasts on Banner, which would surely incapacitate him as they already incapacitated two metahumans who have far above peak human durability (and frankly Banner probably isn't even peak human)...

I believe I've shown that the "circumstances" you mentioned had little to no effect on Jaime's hacking abilities, and that Banner could easily get hacked before he sets up the Gamma Dome.

Your hacking doesn't matter in the slightest because Blue Beetle can disable all of your tech before Banner presses a button, or fry his nervous system engendering incapacitation.

I didn't mentioned the neural disruptor because i don't see it happening at all. You won't even have the chance to shoot such thing and Blue Beetle would either be mind controlled or disassembled as per your hacking abilities, hopefully it doesn't turn as the speed argument but you overlooked plenty of contextual information which makes it nearly useless for fighting purposes and puts Jaime on a very bad situation without the Scarab, ergo, Blue Beetle is going down incredibly fast with no protection towards Banner's hacking and no protection towards a telepathic assault, at least not one sufficient for Cable.

Counters for Firestorm

I suppose that one-shotting an amped version of Kalibak isn't quantifiable then, when Kalibak is a New God near Superman level in durability....

In any case, there are plenty more feats to draw from to showcase Firestorm's extraordinary blasting power, most notably from Firestorm #17 when he one-shotted Black Adam, one of the most durable beings in the DC universe....

Hulk is more durable than Superman so i don't take that statement as something that overpowered. Either way to address your feat, i don't think that feat is enough to claim Hulk would be defeated, not only the burst affected people who is below Black Adam's durability the same way, but the fact Adam's durability isn't that high either considering he easily had his face melted during World War III story arc by Martian Manhunter, he was also easily harmed by Hourman during Black Reign story arc and was also easily harmed by a holding back Superman. Even though he's certainly durable, i don't think Firestorm releasing his powers that way is going to suffice Hulk being knocked out, not only because he's more durable, but because he has an insane regeneration factor that kicks in rather instantly, something Adam certainly doesn't have. Either way, let's show some feats for Hulk's durability... Considering you're opting to go as far as one shoting people to suffice your claim, let me go straight ahead for planetary durability feats, and even though i don't see Wonder Woman having such durability, it's rather convenient to have a significantly lower level of durability while having firepower capable of one shoting Superman level characters by your own admission. Anyways, during Incredible Hulks #616 Hulk literally went through a beam capable of shattering a planet the size of Mars with a simple bloody nose when fighting an enraged Hiro-Kala...

To give you a better look at the force of this beams, during Incredible Hulks #617 this is how they looked from Earth and it was stated by Skaar, who has the Old Strong power which enables him to speak to planets, claimed Hiro Kala was shattering the planet and this time Hiro-Kala wasn't even that mad. I think i need to state that i don't know the exact power level of such blast, but if we're talking about planetary scaled attacks, i need to respond back with feats applicable as counters, in case i'm not allowed to use them, i enforce the rule which claims you can't use that force either given we're not allowed to use attacks beyond continent-level for Wildcard characters. Your choice.

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Anyways, to lower the energy durability a bit, let me go ahead and cite Original Sin: Iron Man vs Hulk #1 where Iron Man uses a Hulkbuster with sonic repulsors capable of powering up an entire continent on his face and he's nothing more than barely bothered by it and proceeds to almost one shot the armor nigh-effortlessly...

Before you claim this feat was done under Doc Green incarnation, the fact Indestructible Hulk is WAY more durable and stronger than Doc Green means the feat is actually applicable, the same way all feats possible would be applicable for Hulk's strongest incarnation, anyways, I believe this is enough for now, i don't see Hulk going down at all in this match and he's certainly durabile enough to take attacks from your whole team combined according to the tourney's stipulations. Moving on...

Considering that Black Adam has effortlessly laughed off blasts from Dr. Fate and heat vision from an angry Power Girl, each many times more powerful than a simple nuclear bomb, Firestorm could still defeat Hulk with blasts, going by feats.

Black Adam is a chump in my humble opinion and i had this argument several times in the vine, even made a CaV against Hall of Famer Frozen and we kinda agreed Hulk is more durable than Adam, he also was unable to prove Black Adam could harm Hulk significantly, likewise, i don't think Firestorm would harm Hulk as you're claiming given he has the feats to counter the maximum energy projection potential allowed for Wildcards.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. In a "team battle", your team is over-reliant on interference from a teammate. In this battle, you've essentially hinged your entire strategy on Cable's relatively weak reaction times; if Cable doesn't interfere then Banner gets one-shotted or hacked and Hulk subsequently gets BFR'd rather easily; meanwhile, Donna and Firestorm could frankly solo this using a method I will elaborate on later...

Sure, as always, you're free to disagree, it doesn't make your disagreement any factual to say the least. My team is not over-reliant, every single one of them plays a role. Banner takes all the technological paraphernalia out from your team's potential, Cable holds your team in place to protect his teammates while playing on the strong offensive too considering "Offense is the best Defense" which a basic strategic principle, all of this while Hulk does what he does best, smash and tank attacks, serve as diversion and give my team time to act accordingly. Funnily enough, your entire team's strategy actually revolves on Donna attempting to do a failure-to-be blitz on Cable and all of Donna's and half of Blue Beetle's part on your rebuttal mentions this blitz. So may i ask, who's over reliant on a single character again? To address the part of Banner getting one shot'd this is not entirely true, mainly because of 2 reasons...

  1. Blue Beetle won't be able to hack Banner's Tech while having no defense whatsoever against the same tactic.
  2. Banner's shields have taken an incredible amount of punishment to the point of shrugging off the same beams Hulk which were shattering a planet during Incredible Hulk #615, but to keep it as low as possible, the shields have actually shrugged off punches from the same Hulk who shook the entire Earth with 5.8 earthquakes during Incredible Hulk #6 and took punches without any trouble at all from Juggernaut during Incredible Hulk #601 which were generating 8.0 Earthquakes easily, just showing the latter, ask for the other scans if you want...
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The same shields can repel molecules to the point of protecting from energy based attacks as proven in the aforementioned Incredible Hulks #615 and also shown used by Amadeus Cho while tanking a satellite attack which was destined to KO World Breaker Hulk at the Manhattan War in World War Hulk #5 during Incredible Hulks #617 backstory without any struggling nor secondary effect whatsoever, the best part of this is that he did it with about 30% of the shields up.

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===========================================================================================================================

Proceeding with the Strategy

So, to summarize, you're going to first mind-link your team, then telepathically assault Donna and Jaime, and finally turn this into a five on one against Firestorm or kill Donna using telekinesis.

Let's go over why that won't work. Aside from the fact that Cable is going to be blitzed, my team has counters to your entire strategy.

First of all, Donna does have a degree of telepathy resistance. In Justice League #49. Here, not only does she break free of a telepath's hold, but she actually manages to bend the telepath's very mind to her will and turn the telepath's mind to a primitive state, effectively having him "mind-rape" himself with her sheer willpower.

Your summary is a way to put it. Anyways, to counter your strategy, first of all, the only reason she managed to take advantage of the situation was because she KNEW she was connected with Jade and Jessie because the telepath was mind linked to all of them, moreover, the telepath in question isn't anywhere near Cable, whose proficiency goes from being completely impervious to the combined probing attacks of Xavier and Jean Grey to the point of make Emma Frost while amped with Cerebro struggle to keep him out even though he had the entire Earth ionized with his telepathic wavelengths. Furthermore, did you miss the fact she was actually affected by telepathy rather easily? Considering Cable's telepathy is MUCH more offensive than the telepath you showed, means she won't have such chances here. Either way, she doesn't have anything on Cable regarding Will, the guy has by far one of the strongest wills of Marvel.

While it may not be feasible that she actually take control of Cable's mind, she is going to be able to resist the assault. The telepath pictured here is known as Bogeyman, and he managed to put Jade under his illusion until Donna turned his mind to putty. This is important because Jade is empowered by the Starheart, a mystical power that grants high-end telepathy resistance; its users have resisted Brainwave and other powerful telepaths.

All in all, Donna's willpower grants her immense TP resistance and I don't see Cable mind-raping her anytime soon.

Blue Beetle's case is much of the same. In Blue Beetle #2 a telepath named Probe tried to invade his mind, but the Scarab fried her mind.

She's not going to resist anything and Bogeyman is nothing compared with Cable whose telepathic abilities are strong enough to actually overcome Hulk's legendary telepathic resistance and this was shown on panel when he attempted to wake Banner up during the Onslaught Saga in Cable #34... It worths to note that he was highly weakened during the instance as all telepaths were weakened by Onslaught during this time...

The best part about this is that he didn't only took hits from Hulk, actually restrained him via telekinesis and overpowered his telepathic resistance while being weakened, but the fact he also did it once again while also overpowering Onslaught's control over him with Storm's help during Incredible Hulk #444. Anyways i think this is enough to prove his superiority but for the sake of the debate i think i need to note that even though Jade is powered by the Starheart, that doesn't make her immune nor resistance to telepathy to the point of being used as a benchmark, Alan Scott was literally the Starheart and he's by far one of the most susceptible individuals to such tactic. Donna's will power has nothing on Cable.

Probe doesn't have a single feat to suggest she's as good as Cable, whose telepathy goes to the point of actually being impervious to the changes of the Astral Plane whereas a bunch of other very powerful telepaths were crying in suffering around the planet during Cable #31 when he fought an out of control Nate Grey and stood his ground...

I believe this feat is enough to suggest Cable isn't getting his mind fried because Blue Beetle did to a probably unexperienced and certainly underneath Cable's telepathic capabilities, i'm nearly positive you won't find a way to actually fry Cable's mind or affect it the way you're suggesting. Again, good luck with that... Honestly, i don't know why you claimed you weren't impressed by Cable, this kind of feats are usually mentioned among my debates and it is ridiculously impressive by telepath standards. In any case, the Scarab would be shut down by BannerTech Gamma Dome.

While Probe isn't as impressive as Bogeyman or Cable, it's still an impressive feat in that it completely knocked her out, meaning that Cable isn't getting through anytime soon.

But in all honesty none of this matters because Donna, who is on the same level of speed as low level Speed Force users, can blitz Cable and defeat him with the Lasso.

What? That doesn't make sense and the deductive background of such statement is rather nonsensical. If Probe isn't as impressive as Cable, what makes you think Cable can actually overcome the scarab? It is a very incongruent approach to say the least mate. As per Donna blitzing, i've already addressed this point too much and i by now, i think you realized just HOW MUCH you are relying on Donna blitzing.

You picked the wrong team to use Gamma against. Firestorm can literally just transmute any Gamma Radiation away, as he has done so before.

I thought Firestorm was going to be fighting and dealing with Hulk... How you came to the conclusion he's just going to ignore Hulk and opt to transmute Banner's Dome if that wasn't even in your initial plans even by having knowledge on me. Seems a bit convenient to change strategies like that. Either way, there's nothing stopping Banner from... um... Turning the Dome Off, it's not like Banner wouldn't know he might be able to do so considering his scanner should give him plenty of information about Firestorm as shown in Incredible Hulk #601 where he uses his FlySpy to analyze both physical and emotional status of some kid whose name is irrelevant, and that was including even chemical composition and status as well as vital statistics, the best thing about this is that it isn't the sole time such amount of info was gained by Banner external scan, but i'll get into it later in this debate...

No Caption Provided

So, i see no reason why Banner's scans wouldn't tell him "Yo, stay away from this mofo, this guy is a freaking nuclear reactor with atomic composition in perpetual flux and energy altering aura" and deduce he shouldn't let this guy to come near his technology nor his gamma energy dome. I have another countermeasure but i'll wait for your response here. Quite short response towards Firestorm's part though, you didn't address durability, you didn't address the anti-intangibility stun gun, you didn't address most of Firestorm's parts actually.

You're using a book from nearly 30 years ago as your proof for Firestorm being harmed by physical attacks? You can do better mate. But I do agree that Firestorm can be harmed physically, so let's move on.

Just wanted to star from there to provide variety, i could very easily use your same instance with Kalibak and claim he was breaking his back prior to being one shot'd by Firestorm. Just sayin'

Your contention intrinsically relies upon Banner tagging Firestorm with his gun. Firestorm isn't simply going to stand there like a moron, he's going to dodge the beam especially when considering that his minor precognition could potentially alert him to the attack.

Regardless, all iterations of Firestorm are massively hypersonic and I'm going to need feats to suggest that Banner could actually tag him.

Nobody said he was simply going to stand there, he'll be too busy trying to figure out why Hulk doesn't go down or most likely he'll be under pressure because his teammates are just neutralized while he's the last one standing and most likely Donna will be even fighting against him. I don't think he'll be expecting someone to cancel his intangibility, even more so considering in your own scan he opted to stand there and let gunfire pass through him just to look godlike, he won't be expecting Banner to shoot him with anti-intangibility technology to begin with. As per you precognition, i think you need to expand here mate, your scan says too little, lacks context and it is seemingly stating the precognition isn't reliable at all given the fact it consists of several wormholes around subatomic panoramas.

Even though Firestorm could be that fast, i don't see him dodging it anyways, but if you insist in your next post about this, i'll show my next countermeasure.

Donna Troy can solo this.

I believe that I've validated a blitz against Cable. Considering that she can make Cable do whatever she wants, she could easily tell Cable to telepathically and telekinetically assault his teammates, and given that you yourself have said that neither Banner nor Hulk has the capacity to deal with an attack of this magnitude your team will be taken down rather efficaciously.

Speed once again and now you're stretching things to the point of claiming Donna Troy Solos? Preposterous approach mate, she's unable to deal with this kind of pressure let alone her speed being currently very questionable and as far as your feats go, you're just overblowing Jesse Quick's and Black Flash's instance by claiming both were moving at the speed of light or faster, let alone claiming she's just every little bit as good as Wonder Woman, which is false and Wonder Woman experts like Erik and Ancient_0f_Days agree on this. Regardless, she won't control Cable, his will is too strong.

Firestorm can solo this as well.

He can destroy Cable's mind with a blast:

He can't, he didn't destroy the mind of that character, he transmuted his implants and neutralized him, something like that won't be applicable of Cable considering his virus, even though it's technological, it's still organic and by the tourney's rules and Firestorm's own power set, he can't do that. I think your scan is very self-explanatory mate. Moreover, did you ignored the fact Cable was fighting Silver Surfer while de-atomizing everything around them? His telekinesis provides high end shields against pretty much everything.

Then transmute all of Banner's technology, as Banner has no resistance to matter manipulation as far as I know, and finally BFR Hulk for a win.

According to your initial strategy, which was debunked and you're taking another way out of this which by the battle logical procedures surely wouldn't take place as your claiming, he won't perform like that and i think it worths to note that the scan you used of Firestorm BFRing those Parademons if i recall correctly was done when he was amped by the Mother Box. Do you have any other feat regarding this ability?

To summarize:

  • Donna doesn't have the speed to blitz like you're suggesting, which will be your downfall because everything depends on dealing with Cable as far as your offensive strategy goes.
  • Blue Beetle has no counter for telepathy, no counter for hacking and he sure as hell is not hacking anyone considering nobody will let the scarab hook himself anywhere.
  • Firestorm would be dealing with Hulk and most likely would be fighting Donna herself with her Lasso of Persuasion which Cable will be aware of with his probing abilities.
  • Is really hard for Firestorm to deduce the Dome comes from a device, let alone that thing being responsible of Blue Beetle's downfall and it would be hidden at any given place of the battleground, likewise, Banner won't let Firestorm get near the Dome's edge before turning the device off.
  • Hulk is too durable to be significantly harmed by Firestorm and would certainly keep him occupied.
  • My strategy stands: Telepathy, Telekinesis, Hacking, Anti-Intangibility, Piece of cake.
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#16  Edited By mickey-mouse
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Looks great so far guys! Tag please

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@ghostravage: I will get to this.... done with internship, but unfortunately I'm on vacation.....

next week for sure

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#20 HigorM  Moderator

T4V!

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T4v

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@gammah: Easy mate, it's a tourney and Hulk can't solo this. It's also unfinished so wait and then vote for who you think debated better and whose team you see winning here objectively.

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#25  Edited By mickey-mouse

How long do these rounds in this tourney last....seems like there is no time limit.

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@gammah said:

@ghostravage: it was kind of a joke bro

Kinda figure that out by now :P

@lukehero said:

How long do these rounds in this tourney last....seems like there is no time limit.

Not sure, but he mentioned that given the fact he's also the main host, he has the perks to lengthen some matches at will.

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#27  Edited By mickey-mouse
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@ghostravage: I'm back at home for the first time in a month, and I can finally put all my time into this. Response up ASAP

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@ghostravage:

Round Three

Donna Troy vs. Cable

When was it ever stated that Wonder Woman's physicals were limited to lightspeed? That notion is completely misconstrued and wrong. Wonder Woman has fought blood-lusted Kryptonians, tagged Cheetah, and hit the Black Flash. She's far faster than light, and even double the speed of light.

Wonder Woman's highest speed feat is entering the Speed Force with Jesse Quick by trying to get a hold at her and by Jay Garrick's own admission in order to tab into the speed force like that you need to go as fast as light, but that does not put her above the speed of light, much less twice the speed of light movement-wise. Fighting Kryptonians is not a light speed feat, not only because there's a ton of on-panel information that needed to be pointed out in order to validate the feat, most likely the fact they were actually moving at light speed which in any case even Superman has failed to move at such speeds on Earth due to friction, fighting Cheetah applies on the same case-scenario, why would you imply Cheetah was fighting faster than light, for all we know she could have been fighting at Mach 800 or less as no real speed indicator was mentioned in the instance, same goes to Black Flash (please do not confuse my skepticism towards your argument by skepticism towards Black Flash's potential). Either way, i can agree with Wonder Woman reacting faster than light but i do not agree with Wonder Woman being faster than light, much less twice the speed of light in combat movement and bullrushes.

  1. You need to further elaborate on your point about friction. Doesn't friction only occur on the ground, meaning that people can fly without worrying about friction? Wonder Woman has consistently kept up with Power Girl and been on the same tier as Superman.
  2. Cheetah despises Wonder Woman and wants her dead. Thus, she was likely going all out, which is much more than the speed of light, especially when we consider that Cheetah at her best has been faster than Superman.
  3. Black Flash is many times faster than light and even the upper tier Flashes have found outrunning him exceedingly difficult.

Regardless of what you think, Wonder Woman unfailingly keeps up with supraluminal beings and tags beings who make Cable look sluggish.

That said, how about you show evidence of Donna Troy's supposed potential as the real Wonder Woman considering all her feats are nothing but a pale shadow of Wonder Woman's and catching up with Jesse Quick without any real speed indicator falls short in your argument. Sorry.

I don't need a "speed indicator" in the context you're thinking of. You're essentially asking me to show a statement that says "X opponent was moving at Y speed," but if I can simply show that Donna has blitzed opponents who have reaction speed equal to or greater than Cable, then I win the argument regardless of whether there was any indicator of what speed Donna was moving at.

There are a few key facts that you're missing here.

First off, the opponent that he had been fighting that opponent for longer than the three pages you posted. In the fight, the same opponent actually did manage to blitz him, even after Cable was able to look in his direction.

In addition, Cable was only able to react to the blitz after he injured the opponent with debris in the page prior to the one you posted.

Not entirely true at all mate. The scan you're talking about is Cable restraining him with piles of steel and metal debris to trap him to then teleport him away. He wasn't harmed, Cable just did that in order to gain some time and gather information from the blue Cultist.

So you're telling me that getting hit with a few tons of metal didn't harm Lightmaster? Lightmaster isn't durable enough at all for that to be true.

Moreover, Cable still perceived him when he freed himself from the trap and manage to control him at the speed of light into clashing with the building, on top of that he was already aware he was traveling faster than previously calculated and arrived earlier, he even had his shield up just as soon as Lightmaster broke free. As per the supposed blitz with an aware Cable, it didn't happen like that. Cable was speaking with him and he was affected by Deadpool's persona due to sharing some kind of perpetual space during the issue and he himself claims so when he gets hit 3 times by Lightmaster. Basically, at this point of battle Cable wasn't even trying to fight back and was just babbling Deadpool style without taking any countermeasures against Lightmaster, something like this won't happen in this scenario because Cable is completely morals off and with no self-restrain at all and the fact he managed to control himself precisely after this point and took everything else seriously. It worths to note that during this fight, a quite huge amount of his concentration was used to keep the entirety of Providence floating in the air via telekinesis and still was fast enough to react to an speeding Lightmaster.

So, what you're trying to say is that Cable just floated there and let Lansky repeatedly into him, even though he was visibly hurt by every strike? Cable's no masochist, he wouldn't simply allow himself to be hit. If he could have reacted, he would have in order to preclude getting hurt.

In this scenario, the opponent started from space to Cable's location, giving him far more time than he will have here. As we can see in the very same issue, Cable can't react to opponents over shorter distances given the smaller amount of time that it takes them to reach him.

The distance between us is far less than a mere mile, as BoschePG and I set it to a Dragon Ball Z arena. Using a speed feat fromspace is far different from the battle at hand.

Again, this is not accurate as Cable already had his shields up before Lightmaster arrived on Earth and knew he broke free and had them up already rather instantly.

How do we know that Cable didn't put his shields up while Lightmaster was still getting out of the debris? There's really no way to definitively prove that he put the shields up after Lansky had started his blitz.

Moreover, he still managed to control him at lightspeed into crashing with the building, is not something that hard to get, if he managed to control someone at that speed, that means he can react at such speeds. Even though there's dialogue there, Lightmaster was blatantly shown as a ray of light with afterimages while moving precisely to imply he was moving at such speeds.

To the contrary, in the panels preceding Cable's telekinetic control of Lansky, he was actually shown to be completely still.

No Caption Provided

Observe that in the first panel, Lightmaster is surrounded by a yellow aura. I agree with you that Lansky was moving at lightspeed during that panel, but that's insignificant because Cable already had his shields up.

The second thing you referred to was his telekinetic control of Lightmaster, which occurs on the very next page. If you look at Lightmaster on the third to last panel on this page, he does not have the yellow aura,signifying that Lightmaster was not moving at lightspeeds when Cable TK-controlled him.

This is really the only significant speed feat that Cable has, and it's not even valid. Donna, on the other hand, has multitudinous speed feats to draw from that would put her above this even if it were well founded. I'll get to those in a bit.

There's no reason to believe Cable won't react to her. Not to mention that in order to actually figure out Lightmaster was arriving earlier he needs to be able to track his path, which in any case he did solely by reactions considering he's unable to affect Lightmaster telepathically because all his brain patterns are pure light. There isn't any way to counter this feat.

In the instances of Cable "reacting" to Lightmaster,

  1. Cable already had his shields up, and might have put them up before Lansky had even broken out of the debris or
  2. Lightmaster wasn't moving.

Cable does not have lightspeed reaction times.

In addition, if Cable cannot react then he is out of the match for good. Donna can make him do anything she wants with the Lasso of Persuasion, and that includes telepathy, which both of your other characters are very susceptible to.

So, to summarize, Cable didn't actually react to the opponent and was previously blitzed, and Donna is still faster than that opponent anyway.

He can react and i'm positive she won't be able to overcome Cable's will, his will is strong enough to go against literally everybody including his father and a bunch of friends. His will is strong enough to even fight Silver Surfer and make him compare him to Galactus. Good luck with that Lasso, as it is obviously a not 100% successful strategy, even less so against Cable's Will... She's going to be one shot'd if she comes near him, she's going to be mind controlled and used a enemy to her teammates or she's going to be teleported outside the Gamma Dome making her unable to come inside again.

Cable's will is strong enough to fight the Silver Surfer and Galactus? Cool, Donna has the will to fight against mother freaking Eclipso and Starheart Alan Scott.

You need to be less equivocal about your Galactus statement. Are you trying to say that Cable has willpower equivalent to Galactus? If so, I'll need feats for Galactus's willpower. Will is one of the few characteristics that beings with extremely high levels of power do not automatically possess, so I'll need some feats to back that up.

Donna isn't faster and you lack evidence to support this point. Basically, you're going off a rumor she's anywhere near Wonder Woman, let alone as fast while at the same time attempting to debunk Cable's feat with an insufficient argument.

No, I'm going off of the fact that I've read all of Donna's Post-Crisis appearances and most of Cable's. But more speed feats shouldn't hurt, so let's shut down that misconceived notion that Cable can hang with Donna when it comes to speed.

More Speed Feats

First, let's discuss New 52 Donna, who is vastly inferior to her Pre-52 counterpart.

Wonder Woman Vol. 4 Annual

Rest of the fight: Page 4 | Page 5 | Page 6 | Page 7 | Page 8

In one of my favorite New 52 fights, Donna manages to keep up with GoW Wonder Woman rather easily throughout 8 pages, and Wonder Woman cannot defeat her physically and thus has to resort to using the Lasso of Truth to subdue her.

Although there was no direct indication of speed, Wonder Woman was fighting to liberate her sisters from Donna's noxious propaganda and influence, so it's safe to say she wasn't playing around, although she was trying to also teach Donna that her ways were wrong.

Nonetheless, Donna did score some quality hits on Wonder Woman, and that's a massive feat by itself. To put it into perspective, here are a few of Wonder Woman's feats in the New 52...

  1. Blitzes Supergirl.
  2. In this instance, Wonder Woman is simultaneously taking on Green Lantern and Superman - and winning.
  3. Deflects Darkseid's Omega Beams, which even Flash and Superman had trouble with.

This same lady that easily reacted to a Green Lantern, blitzed a Kryptonian, and reacted to the Omega Beams? Donna foughtevenly with her until she used her Lasso. Oh, and when Donna fought WW, she was the God of War, while in these instances, she wasn't.

That's right, Donna scored hits on an amped version of a girl that reacted to Green Lanterns and blitzed a Kryptonian. Those are beings that are many times faster than light, but Donna did better against Diana than any of them as far as speed goes.

Oh, but that's not enough, either. Let's look at Pre 52 Donna's speed feats.

Titans #3

In this story arc, the Titans were battling the Seven Deadly Sins, sons of Trigon. One of the Sins was "Lust," a man with the power to make anyone fall so deeply in love with him that they would fight their closest friends for his love. Wally West and Donna fell under Lust's influence, and fought each other.

Under this influence, Wally should have easily knocked Donna out with his punches. He was trying to defeat her. However, Donna managed to take all of his punches, and even evade him for a moment. I'm not saying that she's fast as or faster than Wally, but I believe that if she managed to evade him then she should be more than fast enough to blitz Cable.

Titans #10

This is probably Donna's best speed feat.

Here, she manages to blitz a Green Lantern, John Stewart while he was possessed by Jericho.

This is a huge feat, and one that makes Cable's Lightmaster feat look sluggish.

John Stewart is one of the greatest Green Lanterns the Corps has ever had. He's exceeded the Ring's maximum willpower, and he's shown to easily be able to keep up with the upper tier Justice Leaguers.

And yet, Donna is clearly able to bull-rush him and get off an attack before he can create shields. Considering that all he has to do to get up the shields is think, it shows that she was able to blitz him faster than he could think.

I don't think that you're going to argue that Cable can out-react an upper echelon Green Lantern, because he cannot.

Now, one may believe that Jericho possessing Stewart may mean that Jericho was using his own willpower and not Stewart's leading to a decrease in speed. However, Jericho was perfectly able to make shields and rocket constructs, as we can see in the scans I posted above.

This displays that Jericho was accessing a willpower reserve powerful enough to create shields, and as someone who's read nearly all of Jericho's appearances, this simply cannot be his own.

To prove this point, allow me to bring up to other instances when non-Lanterns tried to use rings.

As we can see here, Batman and Green Arrow (who each have admirable willpower of their own), are wholly unable to use the rings well, and it pains each one greatly to make mere arrow and bat constructs. This is because a Green Lantern must conquer his fear in order to use the ring, and Bruce and Ollie couldn't forget the death of parents and fear of losing Dinah, respectively.

Jericho during the arc that I referenced had the willpower of a wet paper rag, and was frankly a scared little boy. He couldn't even take control of his own mind, and was terrified of his father.

Titans #12

So essentially, what we've established is the following:

  1. Using a Green Lantern Ring requires willpower and the ability to overcome fear.
  2. Jericho does not have good willpower and is scared to death of his father Deathstroke.
  3. However, Jericho was still able to easily create shields and missiles with the ring.

I believe that this shows that he was accessing someone else's willpower, this being Stewart's. Given that Stewart has speed feats that far exceed those of Cable, the fact that Donna blitzed him means before he could think means that she can blitz Cable and Lasso him in a similar manner.

A quick google search shows us that the distance from Rhode Island to Australia is a mere ten thousand miles. If we set an "instant" to a single second (honestly it should be more given that the two were conversing), then it is still 1/18 of thespeed of light, which means that it isn't impressive at all in this debate given that Donna has blitzed and caught up to opponents whose reaction times far exceed the speed of light and double the speed of light.

The problem is Cable was impeding Silver Surfer from taking him out of Providence because the city would have fall, basically, he was pushing Silver Surfer back when they were grabbing each other, that's the reason why they didn't arrive earlier and they still arrived to Australia.

I agree with you on this; however, I wasn't trying to say that this is Cable's maximum speed but that the feat merely isn't impressive in the debate pertaining to speed, and that point still stands.

Regardless, you're basing your argument off the fallacy you think speedsters are always moving at the speed of light and there's no real objective indicator that Jesse Quick was moving that fast nor any other character you've mentioned so far to be honest and apologies for my harshness but don't give me that crappy argument of dialogues in between fights considering the same can be said about the sole speed feat you've used for Donna... She was calling Jesse and managed to pronounce her name before she left the corner of that building, so it wasn't light speed and your own approach is enough to deal with it.

Donna has still blitzed a Green Lantern as well as a Superboy clone, each of whom should be above Cable's top speed which is at this point lightspeed.

In that case we wouldn't need any indication of how fast G.L. or Donna was moving because Stewart has explicitly shown FTL reaction times and Donna was blatantly able to surpass that.

I don't understand how you think Cable has the fastest reflexes allowed in this tourney. He is below Wonder Woman by a significant margin, and below Donna as well considering that she caught up to Jesse Quick and was proven to be faster than an alternate reality Flash, the former being easily double the speed of light and the latter carrying the mantle of the Flash in his world....

I was under the impression the top was lightspeed because around that level are the highest reactionary speed feats of Wonder Woman, but if it's beyond that point, sure, why not. Regardless, i think you're overblowing Jesse's instance as well as Black Flash's, show me any objectiveness in those feats that irrefutably prove they were moving either at or twice the speed of light. As far as i can tell, you haven't shown anything to suggest she moves that fast and your feats are easily questionable.

You keep talking about "objective speed". If Donna was able to blitz someone who has FTL reaction speeds, then that's the speed she moves at, especially when given that she's evaded other beings of a similar caliber and has shown to be comparable to speed force users such as that alternate Flash and Jesse Quick.

Also, just because you think Diana's top speed is lightspeed doesn't make it factual. She has kept up with opponents who are FTL and blood-lusted, so she is faster than light herself.

Cable's top reaction speed is lightspeed (and honestly even that's questionable given that Lightmaster wasn't moving when Cable TK-controlled him). Donna exceeds that.

Frankly this doesn't even matter because Cable does not have reflexes double the speed of light like you're insinuating although Donna has blitzed individuals with that level of speed before; furthermore, Cable has no counter at all to Donna's magical Lasso of Persuasion.

Ok, more speed arguments. I'm going to go ahead and refer you to the previous paragraphs. Anyways, Donna's Lasso of persuasion is bound to her Iron Will, but the fact Cable's Will was compared to Galactus himself i think says enough about his will, he won't be easily Persuaded and even when she used it on Etrigan he resisted it for enough time to give Cable the chance to TP her into a carrot. Likewise, you have no real counter for the massive telepathic assault Cable is going to attempt in this match. Again, good luck there.

You need to elaborate on the Galactus statement. Did someone simply say that he had willpower comparable to Galactus, or was there a way that they actually measured it?

Donna's willpower has:

  1. Enabled her to use a weapon that relies on willpower and her bending others to her will.
  2. Allowed her to use sheer willpower to force a telepath to do what she wants - and resist TP through pure willpower.
  3. Keep fighting Eclipso even when there was little to no hope left.

Your vague statements don't hold a candle to her.

Blue Beetle vs. Bruce Banner

So essentially, you're telling me that Cable, who you haven't even proved can react to Donna Troy, is going to somehow fend off Donna at the same time that he restrains Blue Beetle? That's not working out at all.

Yes, with the exception that it is Donna whose supposed speed is unfounded here. I don't understand how it wouldn't work, Cable has done exactly the same almost effortlessly during Cable Annual from 1999 where he fought 4 foes while invading their minds, while putting them in a telekinetic hold, while making them do what he wants, while reflecting projectiles faster than a heartbeat and directing them into desired foes, let alone disassembling their armors and performing an invasive yet probing telepathic assault at the same time...

He's known to be able to multitask like this so i see no reason why he wouldn't do it to actually protect someone he knows can't take punishment and he's completely morals off and without self-restrain, he's still by far, the best strategist in this match and he surely won't decrease his chances of winning by letting his teammates fall easily, he's going to protect them and put the real hurt on the enemy as quick and efficiently as possible. Moving on...

You still haven't proved that Cable has the speed to react to Donna, and frankly, Donna could resist his telepathy with her will just as she did to Bogeyman. He still gets blitzed. But let's ignore Donna and Cable for a moment and focus on Jaime and Banner.

Not only does Cable not have the reaction times to take down Donna, but he also doesn't know anything about any member of my team. Jaime isn't an idiot; he's not going to scream "HEY CABLE I'M HACKING YOUR TEAMMATE PLEASE DON'T INTERVENE," he's just going to do it. Considering that hacking doesn't actually require any movement it's perfectly feasible that Cable doesn't intervene by lack of perception, not only because he does not possess the speed but also because he does not know what is going on.

The reaction time has been addressed extensively, i think your entire strategy revolves too much on Donna supposedly blitzing Cable when in reality she's lacking real speed feats to suggest she can actually perform that strategy, she's slow by Cable's standards in my humble opinion and of course, based on your argument as well. He also doesn't need to know who your members are, he only have 2 missions here regardless of the foe, he needs to protect his teammates and he needs to beat the opponents, so any countermeasures he takes is going to accomplish both tasks.

Quite the contrary; I also said that Firestorm could potentially take a few rounds of this by himself, without any support from Donna.

The fact that by your own feats the Scarab needs to be unplugged from Jamie and literally connected to the machine or technology that it is going to hack means his hacking capabilities are rather useless, hell, let me go ahead and crop exactly the panels where this fact is exploited between Blue Beetle #24 and Blue Beetle #25...

Basically, the only reason the scarab performed such thing was because it was blatantly plugged into the Mothership's main computer which allowed it to hack into all the defense systems and all that jada jada, hardly a feat like BannerTech which hacks by Area of Effect and hacks people who is actually protected against it rather instantly. Hardly a counter for Banner's tech. So he's still going to be telekinetically restrained and perhaps even stripped from the Scarab the same way he did to The Marauders.

Here's the problem with that statement: Banner is far too slow to defend himself. Blue Beetle can both hack his tech and, if that doesn't work, fry his nerves incapacitating him. If Cable can't react to Donna, then Banner's KO'd. If Cable can react to Donna, then Banner gets all his technology transmuted by Firestorm. There's really no scenario in which Banner is a factor at all.

I don't see how entering random numbers has any impact on the Reach systems.

In addition, I can't fathom how being on the interior of the ship, nearly dead, would have any impact, positive or negative, on the scarab's hacking capabilities. We are fairly close to one another in this match; the conditions are similar enough.

Also, as a somewhat unrelated note, I'm not entirely sure why you told me what the issue number was given that I had already stated that it was Blue Beetle #25 in my own post.

The numbers were just a diversion to make people focus on Jamie while the Scarab hacked into the mothership's systems as it is explicitly stated in the scans. No no no... It is I who can't fathom how you could unintentionally overlook or purposely neglect the fact the scarab was directly hooked into the central computer and didn't hacked the same way BannerTech does, which is the way you're implying is going to happen. Proximity only strengthen my chances of hacking you. As per the issue number, i mentioned it because i actually searched for the issues and found out they were for his seventh volume, and the scans you posted are from Blue Beetle #24, not 25 which just shows the after effects of the hacking procedure. Apologies if it was seen differently.

Still, there wasn't anything to suggest that that had any effect on hacking the mothership. The scarab has hacked other things in the past without being plugged in, such as other scarabs in Blue Beetle #13...

Issue 13
Issue 13

The instance is especially compelling when considering that each scarab is a technopath on its own. So, Beetle was able to out-hack multiple technopaths. I believe this not only shows that the scarab being plugged in had little to no effect on the hacking abilities, but it's also another feat that shows Beetle's superiority in this department.

But honestly, none of this even matters that much because Banner would never get the chance to do such a thing. Both Beetle's blasts and, more importantly, Firestorm's transmutation, are instantaneous and could disable Banner from the match entirely.

I find it interesting how you failed to even mention the neural blasts in your response; it's an integral part of my strategy and you didn't talk about it even once.

I've mentioned repeatedly that if the initial assault didn't work, Jaime could just as easily opt to use his blasts on Banner, which would surely incapacitate him as they already incapacitated two metahumans who have far above peak human durability (and frankly Banner probably isn't even peak human)...

I believe I've shown that the "circumstances" you mentioned had little to no effect on Jaime's hacking abilities, and that Banner could easily get hackedbefore he sets up the Gamma Dome.

Your hacking doesn't matter in the slightest because Blue Beetle can disable all of your tech before Banner presses a button, or fry his nervous system engendering incapacitation.

I didn't mentioned the neural disruptor because i don't see it happening at all. You won't even have the chance to shoot such thing and Blue Beetle would either be mind controlled or disassembled as per your hacking abilities, hopefully it doesn't turn as the speed argument but you overlooked plenty of contextual information which makes it nearly useless for fighting purposes and puts Jaime on a very bad situation without the Scarab, ergo, Blue Beetle is going down incredibly fast with no protection towards Banner's hacking and no protection towards a telepathic assault, at least not one sufficient for Cable.

Not at all. Banner is going to be the one who goes down incredibly fast, because each of my team members can one-shot him, and once again you've hinged your entire strategy on Cable's questionable lightspeed reaction feat being enough to combat Donna's faster-than-light feats against John Stewart, alternate reality Flashes etc.

Firestorm vs. Hulk

I suppose that one-shotting an amped version of Kalibak isn't quantifiable then, when Kalibak is a New God near Superman level in durability....

In any case, there are plenty more feats to draw from to showcase Firestorm's extraordinary blasting power, most notably from Firestorm #17 when he one-shotted Black Adam, one of the most durable beings in the DC universe....

Hulk is more durable than Superman so i don't take that statement as something that overpowered. Either way to address your feat, i don't think that feat is enough to claim Hulk would be defeated, not only the burst affected people who is below Black Adam's durability the same way, but the fact Adam's durability isn't that high either considering he easily had his face melted during World War III story arc by Martian Manhunter, he was also easily harmed by Hourman during Black Reign story arc and was also easily harmed by a holding back Superman. Even though he's certainly durable, i don't think Firestorm releasing his powers that way is going to suffice Hulk being knocked out, not only because he's more durable, but because he has an insane regeneration factor that kicks in rather instantly, something Adam certainly doesn't have. Either way, let's show some feats for Hulk's durability... Considering you're opting to go as far as one shoting people to suffice your claim, let me go straight ahead for planetary durability feats, and even though i don't see Wonder Woman having such durability, it's rather convenient to have a significantly lower level of durability while having firepower capable of one shoting Superman level characters by your own admission. Anyways, during Incredible Hulks #616Hulk literally went through a beam capable of shattering a planet the size of Mars with a simple bloody nose when fighting an enraged Hiro-Kala... To give you a better look at the force of this beams, during Incredible Hulks #617 this is how they looked from Earth and it was stated by Skaar, who has the Old Strong power which enables him to speak to planets, claimed Hiro Kala was shattering the planet and this time Hiro-Kala wasn't even that mad. I think i need to state that i don't know the exact power level of such blast, but if we're talking about planetary scaled attacks, i need to respond back with feats applicable as counters, in case i'm not allowed to use them, i enforce the rule which claims you can't use that force either given we're not allowed to use attacks beyond continent-level for Wildcard characters. Your choice. Anyways, to lower the energy durability a bit, let me go ahead and cite Original Sin: Iron Man vs Hulk #1 where Iron Man uses a Hulkbuster with sonic repulsors capable of powering up an entire continent on his face and he's nothing more than barely bothered by it and proceeds to almost one shot the armor nigh-effortlessly... Before you claim this feat was done under Doc Green incarnation, the fact Indestructible Hulk is WAY more durable and stronger than Doc Green means the feat is actually applicable, the same way all feats possible would be applicable for Hulk's strongest incarnation, anyways, I believe this is enough for now, i don't see Hulk going down at all in this match and he's certainly durabile enough to take attacks from your whole team combined according to the tourney's stipulations. Moving on...

Oh, I see what you're doing. You essentially put me in a position where I'm either over the rules or unable to bring down Hulk. I might remind you that your brawler was not allowed to survive a few minutes with a bloodlusted Superman, which, from Hulk's feats and regeneration, he certainly can do... regardless, let's ignore that rule-violation for the sake of a good debate and move on to other methods of victory.

Considering that Black Adam has effortlessly laughed off blasts from Dr. Fate and heat vision from an angry Power Girl, each many times more powerful than a simple nuclear bomb, Firestorm could still defeat Hulk with blasts, going by feats.

Black Adam is a chump in my humble opinion and i had this argument several times in the vine, even made a CaV against Hall of Famer Frozen and we kinda agreed Hulk is more durable than Adam, he also was unable to prove Black Adam could harm Hulk significantly, likewise, i don't think Firestorm would harm Hulk as you're claiming given he has the feats to counter the maximum energy projection potential allowed for Wildcards.

Come on now, you really believe that Hulk is just going to walk through all of Firestorm's attacks? Even if Hulk is more durable than Black Adam, it's not by much especially given that Black Adam has tanked hits fromvirtually the entire JSA. In addition, Firestorm defeated Teth in a single blast; if he hits Hulk with multipleblasts like this, Hulk should go down.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. In a "team battle", your team is over-reliant on interference from a teammate. In this battle, you've essentially hinged your entire strategy on Cable's relatively weak reaction times; if Cable doesn't interfere then Banner gets one-shotted or hacked and Hulk subsequently gets BFR'd rather easily; meanwhile, Donna and Firestorm could frankly solo this using a method I will elaborate on later...

Sure, as always, you're free to disagree, it doesn't make your disagreement any factual to say the least. My team is not over-reliant, every single one of them plays a role. Banner takes all the technological paraphernalia out from your team's potential, Cable holds your team in place to protect his teammates while playing on the strong offensive too considering "Offense is the best Defense" which a basic strategic principle, all of this while Hulk does what he does best, smash and tank attacks, serve as diversion and give my team time to act accordingly. Funnily enough, your entire team's strategy actually revolves on Donna attempting to do a failure-to-be blitz on Cable and all of Donna's and half of Blue Beetle's part on your rebuttal mentions this blitz. So may i ask, who's over reliant on a single character again?

You are.

I said that Firestorm could solo without Donna's help.

You, on the other hand, cannot counter Jaime's neural blasts or Firestorm's BFR without Cable.

To address the part of Banner getting one shot'd this is not entirely true, mainly because of 2 reasons...

  1. Blue Beetle won't be able to hack Banner's Tech while having no defense whatsoever against the same tactic.
  2. Banner's shields have taken an incredible amount of punishment to the point of shrugging off the same beams Hulk which were shattering a planet during Incredible Hulk #615, but to keep it as low as possible, the shields have actually shrugged off punches from the same Hulk who shook the entire Earth with 5.8 earthquakes during Incredible Hulk #6 and took punches without any trouble at all from Juggernaut duringIncredible Hulk #601 which were generating 8.0 Earthquakes easily, just showing the latter, ask for the other scans if you want...

The same shields can repel molecules to the point of protecting from energy based attacks as proven in the aforementioned Incredible Hulks #615and also shown used by Amadeus Cho while tanking a satellite attack which was destined to KO World Breaker Hulk at the Manhattan War in World War Hulk #5 during Incredible Hulks #617 backstory without any struggling nor secondary effect whatsoever, the best part of this is that he did it with about 30% of the shields up.

Banner's shields are irrelevant as he will never have the time to get them up. Blue Beetle is a character who moves far faster than human thought; he could incapacitate Banner before Banner even knows what happened, even if hacking doesn't work.

Countering Your Strategy

So, to summarize, you're going to first mind-link your team, then telepathically assault Donna and Jaime, and finally turn this into a five on one against Firestorm or kill Donna using telekinesis.

Let's go over why that won't work. Aside from the fact that Cable is going to be blitzed, my team has counters to your entire strategy.

First of all, Donna does have a degree of telepathy resistance. In Justice League #49. Here, not only does she break free of a telepath's hold, but she actually manages to bend the telepath's very mind to her will and turn the telepath's mind to a primitive state, effectively having him "mind-rape" himself with her sheer willpower.

Your summary is a way to put it. Anyways, to counter your strategy, first of all, the only reason she managed to take advantage of the situation was because she KNEW she was connected with Jade and Jessie because the telepath was mind linked to all of them, moreover, the telepath in question isn't anywhere near Cable, whose proficiency goes from being completely impervious to the combined probing attacks of Xavier and Jean Grey to the point of make Emma Frost while amped with Cerebro struggle to keep him out even though he had the entire Earth ionized with his telepathic wavelengths. Furthermore, did you miss the fact she was actually affected by telepathy rather easily? Considering Cable's telepathy is MUCH more offensive than the telepath you showed, means she won't have such chances here. Either way, she doesn't have anything on Cable regarding Will, the guy has by far one of the strongest wills of Marvel.

What willpower feats have you shown that put Cable above Donna?

Donna uses a weapon that relies on willpower, and has used nothing but will to force telepaths to mind-rape themselves. She's never given up on a battle and has kept fighting no matter how much physical or emotional pain she is in. In Blackest Night she resisted the transformation into a Black Lantern longer than anyone else did.

You need to show me some willpower feats.

While it may not be feasible that she actually take control of Cable's mind, she is going to be able to resist the assault. The telepath pictured here is known as Bogeyman, and he managed to put Jade under his illusion until Donna turned his mind to putty. This is important because Jade is empowered by the Starheart, a mystical power that grants high-end telepathy resistance; its users have resisted Brainwave and other powerful telepaths.

All in all, Donna's willpower grants her immense TP resistance and I don't see Cable mind-raping her anytime soon.

Blue Beetle's case is much of the same. In Blue Beetle #2 a telepath named Probe tried to invade his mind, but the Scarab fried her mind.

She's not going to resist anything and Bogeyman is nothing compared with Cable whose telepathic abilities are strong enough to actually overcome Hulk's legendary telepathic resistance and this was shown on panel when he attempted to wake Banner up during the Onslaught Saga in Cable #34... It worths to note that he was highly weakened during the instance as all telepaths were weakened by Onslaught during this time...

The best part about this is that he didn't only took hits from Hulk, actually restrained him via telekinesis and overpowered his telepathic resistance while being weakened, but the fact he also did it once again while also overpowering Onslaught's control over him with Storm's help duringIncredible Hulk #444.

Apologies, but only showing this one instance is not sufficient to say that Cable can telepathically overpower Donna in the slightest. Different incarnations of Hulk have vastly different degrees of telepathic resistance; show me some feats of this version of Hulk and then we can talk.

Anyways i think this is enough to prove his superiority but for the sake of the debate i think i need to note that even though Jade is powered by the Starheart, that doesn't make her immune nor resistance to telepathy to the point of being used as a benchmark, Alan Scott was literally the Starheart and he's by far one of the most susceptible individuals to such tactic.

Alan Scott has broken free of the influence of extremely powerful telepaths (such as Brainwave) and during his possessed phase the Starheart actually took control of Obsidian and Dr. Fate, two of the most powerful telepaths in the DCU.

While he isn't immune to telepathy, he always breaks free of it after being initially affected and the fact that Donna was more resistant to telepathy than a Starheart user is very impressive.

Probe doesn't have a single feat to suggest she's as good as Cable, whose telepathy goes to the point of actually being impervious to the changes of the Astral Plane whereas a bunch of other very powerful telepaths were crying in suffering around the planet duringCable #31 when he fought an out of control Nate Grey and stood his ground...

I believe this feat is enough to suggest Cable isn't getting his mind fried because Blue Beetle did to a probably unexperienced and certainly underneath Cable's telepathic capabilities, i'm nearly positive you won't find a way to actually fry Cable's mind or affect it the way you're suggesting. Again, good luck with that... Honestly, i don't know why you claimed you weren't impressed by Cable, this kind of feats are usually mentioned among my debates and it is ridiculously impressive by telepath standards. In any case, the Scarab would be shut down by BannerTech Gamma Dome.

While Probe isn't as impressive as Bogeyman or Cable, it's still an impressive feat in that it completely knocked her out, meaning that Cable isn't getting through anytime soon.

But in all honesty none of this matters because Donna, who is on the same level of speed as low level Speed Force users, can blitz Cable and defeat him with the Lasso.

What? That doesn't make sense and the deductive background of such statement is rather nonsensical. If Probe isn't as impressive as Cable, what makes you think Cable can actually overcome the scarab? It is a very incongruent approach to say the least mate.

It's because that Blue Beetle wasn't only able to resist her, but he completely incapacitated her when she tried to look into his mind. The degree to which he resisted her was such that she couldn't even get a glimpse of his thoughts.

Anyways, there is another way that Beetle can resist telepathy.

Blue Beetle #33-34

Essentially what the scarab did in this situation was kill Jaime Reyes, and then revive him later. If Cable were to kill Blue Beetle here (and he likely would considering that he's morals off and blood-lusted), then the Scarab could simply revive him.

As per Donna blitzing, i've already addressed this point too much and i by now, i think you realized just HOW MUCH you are relying on Donna blitzing.

I'm not relying on her in the slightest. I've said multiple times that Firestorm can take your entire team down by himself.

You picked the wrong team to use Gamma against. Firestorm can literally just transmute any Gamma Radiation away, as he has done so before.

I thought Firestorm was going to be fighting and dealing with Hulk... How you came to the conclusion he's just going to ignore Hulk and opt to transmute Banner's Dome if that wasn't even in your initial plans even by having knowledge on me. Seems a bit convenient to change strategies like that. Either way, there's nothing stopping Banner from... um... Turning the Dome Off, it's not like Banner wouldn't know he might be able to do so considering his scanner should give him plenty of information about Firestorm as shown in Incredible Hulk #601 where he uses his FlySpy to analyze both physical and emotional status of some kid whose name is irrelevant, and that was including even chemical composition and status as well as vital statistics, the best thing about this is that it isn't the sole time such amount of info was gained by Banner external scan, but i'll get into it later in this debate...

No Caption Provided

So, i see no reason why Banner's scans wouldn't tell him "Yo, stay away from this mofo, this guy is a freaking nuclear reactor with atomic composition in perpetual flux and energy altering aura" and deduce he shouldn't let this guy to come near his technology nor his gamma energy dome. I have another countermeasure but i'll wait for your response here. Quite short response towards Firestorm's part though, you didn't address durability, you didn't address the anti-intangibility stun gun, you didn't address most of Firestorm's parts actually.

Let me reiterate why Banner isn't going to be a factor in this fight at all.

This is a HIGH TIER battle. Each character here is massively hypersonic, with Donna being faster than the speed of light, Blue Beetle being around the Mach 100 range and Firestorm being somewhere in the middle.

This entire fight is going to happen before Banner even processes what is going on. In the first millisecond, the outcome of Donna's blitz will have been determined. In another millisecond, Firestorm will have either knocked out or BFR'd the Incredible Hulk.

At this point Banner still hasn't even processed a single image and hasn't even had a thought yet. Even if Blue Beetle wasn't present in the fight, he would either have all his tech transmuted or his mind taken over by Cable under Donna's influence.

Banner is a human. He's not even a peak human and is pitifully slow compared to everyone else in this battle. He's not going to get the chance to do anything.

You're using a book from nearly 30 years ago as your proof for Firestorm being harmed by physical attacks? You can do better mate. But I do agree that Firestorm can be harmed physically, so let's move on.

Just wanted to star from there to provide variety, i could very easily use your same instance with Kalibak and claim he was breaking his back prior to being one shot'd by Firestorm. Just sayin'

Yes, well I agreed that Firestorm can be physically harmed, so let's move on.

Your contention intrinsically relies upon Banner tagging Firestorm with his gun. Firestorm isn't simply going to stand there like a moron, he's going to dodge the beam especially when considering that his minor precognition could potentially alert him to the attack.

Regardless, all iterations of Firestorm are massively hypersonic and I'm going to need feats to suggest that Banner could actually tag him.

Nobody said he was simply going to stand there, he'll be too busy trying to figure out why Hulk doesn't go down or most likely he'll be under pressure because his teammates are just neutralized while he's the last one standing and most likely Donna will be even fighting against him.

Donna isn't going to be fighting against him; rather, Cable will be the one fighting against your team with the magical Lasso of Persuasion.

But even if she were fighting against him (she's not), Firestorm wouldn't be fazed at all. Various incarnations of Firestorm have taken on (and sometimes taken down!):

  • A Justice League roster consisting of Superman, Wonder Woman, Hawkman, Zatanna, and Red Tornado
  • An Injustice League roster consisting of Black Adam, Amazo, Parasite, and the Royal Flush Gang
  • A different Injustice League roster consisting of Gorilla Grodd, Dr. Light, Killer Frost, Lex Luthor, Cheetah, Poison Ivy, and Deathstroke
  • Darkseid
  • The Anti-Monitor

Against these individuals and groups, Firestorm has always kept a cool head and thought logically and coherently, never buckling under the pressure. He's a very experienced superhero and I fail to see why he's going to be confused on why Hulk isn't one-shotted or be afraid of the pressure.

My guess is he's going to try to one-shot the less durable ones with a blast (Cable and Banner) and then BFR the Hulk.

But all this is hypothetical and wouldn't happen at all. Donna has enough speed to blitz Cable.

I don't think he'll be expecting someone to cancel his intangibility, even more so considering in your own scan he opted to stand there and let gunfire pass through him just to look godlike, he won't be expecting Banner to shoot him with anti-intangibility technology to begin with.

That battle was against random, nameless fodder. He came in cocky because he knew that it would be easy; with basic knowledge on Banner he's not going to do the same. Rather, he's going to turn all of Banner's technology into butterflies and render it useless.

As per you precognition, i think you need to expand here mate, your scan says too little, lacks context and it is seemingly stating the precognition isn't reliable at all given the fact it consists of several wormholes around subatomic panoramas.

Sure. This is a rather tricky topic, but I'll do my best to explain it.

The Firestorm Matrix is one of the four fundamental forces of the universe, representing what humans conceive as Fire in comparison to the other four forces of Earth, Air, and Water as explained in Brightest Day and in Firestorm Vol. 3 Issues 20-30. It occupies its very own dimension that is spread out across space and time, and anyone that truly harnesses all of the power of the Firestorm Matrix would become a universal level power, as shown when Elemental Firestorm held a universe in his palm. Note that this does NOT mean that the version of Firestorm is a universal power; he's merely harnessing a fraction of this energy.

Because of its vast power and the fact that it's spread out across space and time, there are small breaches - subatomic wormholes - into the future, that certain elements of the Matrix can look into. The only element that has been shown to have this power is Martin Stein, who is included in the Composite Firestorm that I am using.

Even though Firestorm could be that fast, i don't see him dodging it anyways, but if you insist in your next post about this, i'll show my next countermeasure.

Donna Troy can solo this.

I believe that I've validated a blitz against Cable. Considering that she can make Cable do whatever she wants, she could easily tell Cable to telepathically and telekinetically assault his teammates, and given that you yourself have said that neither Banner nor Hulk has the capacity to deal with an attack of this magnitude your team will be taken down rather efficaciously.

Speed once again and now you're stretching things to the point of claiming Donna Troy Solos? Preposterous approach mate, she's unable to deal with this kind of pressure let alone her speed being currently very questionable and as far as your feats go, you're just overblowing Jesse Quick's and Black Flash's instance by claiming both were moving at the speed of light or faster, let alone claiming she's just every little bit as good as Wonder Woman, which is false and Wonder Woman experts like Erik and Ancient_0f_Days agree on this.

Hold on, I never said that she was as good as Wonder Woman. She isn't. But she's still good enough to deal with the likes of Cable.

In addition, I brought up multitudinous new feats in this post, feats that put her above anything Cable's done even if the Lightmaster feat is valid (which it isn't).

Regardless, she won't control Cable, his will is too strong.

You've shown no willpower feats for Cable that trump those of Donna.

Firestorm can solo this as well.

He can destroy Cable's mind with a blast:

He can't, he didn't destroy the mind of that character, he transmuted his implants and neutralized him, something like that won't be applicable of Cable considering his virus, even though it's technological, it's still organic and by the tourney's rules and Firestorm's own power set, he can't do that.

From what I've seen, the TO Virus just turns organic matter into technology. If this is the case then Firestorm can easily just transmute these non-organic parts which would also kill or incapacitate Cable.

I think your scan is very self-explanatory mate. Moreover, did you ignored the fact Cable was fighting Silver Surfer while de-atomizing everything around them? His telekinesis provides high end shields against pretty much everything.

I believe that I've already shown many feats of Firestorm one-shotting New Gods and Black Adam, so I'm going to need more feats for Cable's shields than that instance, because Silver Surfer was obviously holding back as he straight-up demolishes Cable once he gets serious.

And regardless, Firestorm can just transmute the shields away. He's transmuted things such as negative matter, gamma radiation, and light, so I don't see why he couldn't transmute the shields away.

In addition, Firestorm can transmute things even through shields and walls; shields wouldn't do anything to his ability to transmute something that's already inside Cable.

Then transmute all of Banner's technology, as Banner has no resistance to matter manipulation as far as I know, and finally BFR Hulk for a win.

According to your initial strategy, which was debunked and you're taking another way out of this which by the battle logical procedures surely wouldn't take place as your claiming, he won't perform like that and i think it worths to note that the scan you used of Firestorm BFRing those Parademons if i recall correctly was done when he was amped by the Mother Box. Do you have any other feat regarding this ability?

You don't recall correctly. Firestorm has never had possession of a Mother Box that I know of. In that issue he was with Mr. Miracle, who did have a Mother Box, but Firestorm himself didn't have one.

And besides, Firestorm has used Zeta Radiation to send people away and has also sent them to the Firestorm Matrix, multiple times.

So, yes, he does have other feats regarding this ability.

Donna doesn't have the speed to blitz like you're suggesting, which will be your downfall because everything depends on dealing with Cable as far as your offensive strategy goes.

Donna absolutely does have the speed to blitz Cable as I've debunked the Lightmaster instance as well as promoted Donna's own speed feats to a point where that she's undoubtedly above Cable.

Blue Beetle has no counter for telepathy, no counter for hacking and he sure as hell is not hacking anyone considering nobody will let the scarab hook himself anywhere.

Jaime isn't needed in this battle because Bruce Banner is far too slow and frail to be of use to anyone, but he can still one-shot Bruce Banner before Banner even processes what is going on, even if hacking multiple technopaths isn't a good enough feat to say he can hack BannerTech.

Firestorm would be dealing with Hulk and most likely would be fighting Donna herself with her Lasso of Persuasion which Cable will be aware of with his probing abilities.

Donna's willpower is far, far stronger than Cable and has granted her a higher degree of telepathy resistance than Starheart users who themselves have resisted the highest order of telepaths. Cable can't react to a blitz and will be unable to use his telepathy regardless.

Is really hard for Firestorm to deduce the Dome comes from a device, let alone that thing being responsible of Blue Beetle's downfall and it would be hidden at any given place of the battleground, likewise, Banner won't let Firestorm get near the Dome's edge before turning the device off.

Firestorm is going to transmute all of Banner's technology into cake with a thought as soon as he can and there's nothing Banner can do about it.

Hulk is too durable to be significantly harmed by Firestorm and would certainly keep him occupied.

Hulk is also extremely vulnerable to BFR and honestly can be harmed by Firestorm. Come to think of it, your entire team is. What's stopping Firestorm from just sending them all a couple light-years away for a victory?

My strategy stands: Telepathy,

Firestorm's immune, the scarab can kill Jaime so that he has no mind and revive him later, and Donna is nigh-immune.

Telekinesis,

Cable is going to be blitzed, Donna can evade the attack and Firestorm has control over his own molecules anyways.

Hacking,

Banner is far too slow to be of use in this particular battle and Jaime is a better technopath anyways.

Anti-Intangibility,

Firestorm will transmute all of your tech before that can happen.

Piece of cake.

For me, yes.

Summary

Defensive

  1. All my characters have counters to telepathy. Firestorm's immune as you well know, Donna's willpower is too strong for her to be affected, and Jaime can play dead in order to evade the attack.
  2. Banner can't even process how fast any of my characters will be moving. He's a non-factor.
  3. There's no way any of your characters can really put down Firestorm given his intangibility.

Offensive

  1. Donna is fast enough to blitz. Her feats against Wally West, Green Lantern, and GoW Wonder Woman make her faster than Cable, who honestly doesn't even have lightspeed reaction times as I have previously delineated.
  2. If Donna is fast enough to blitz, your entire team goes down due to Cable being on my team and mind-raping your team.
  3. If she isn't, then Firestorm can still solo this match. He can BFR Hulk, turn all of Banner's gadgets into cake and either BFR Cable or just take away the non-organic parts of Cable's body, defeating him.

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I think this will be the first time I see Ghostravage lose a CaV.

Great work by the both of you though. We can tell you guys are putting in a lot of work into this.

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#33 thedailybagel  Moderator
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@thedailybagel: the limit is introductions + 3 posts. GR posts next, then I type my conclusions, then GR does.

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#35 thedailybagel  Moderator
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@thenewbluebeetle007: Very nice response. Sadly, my little dog literally ate my HD cable, so at the moment i have no way to post scans and all my issues are inaccessible right now. As soon as i manage to cut and fix the cable, i'll post my response.

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@thenewbluebeetle007: Very nice response. Sadly, my little dog literally ate my HD cable, so at the moment i have no way to post scans and all my issues are inaccessible right now. As soon as i manage to cut and fix the cable, i'll post my response.

O_O

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@thenewbluebeetle007: Actually, i forgot about this but reading through it just motivated me once again. I'll try to post my rebuttal tonight. Thanks for reminding me about this, surely it was a good match, specially since i can hardly use this team elsewhere.

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@thenewbluebeetle007: Alright mate, let's keep this going and put an end to it. I really enjoyed it and this is by far the most versatile debate i've ever managed to argue at. Either way, since the tournament itself pretty much disappeared, i'm going to pull all my cards here, although staying within the limitations. Best of lucks mate.

Donna Troy vs Cable

You need to further elaborate on your point about friction. Doesn't friction only occur on the ground, meaning that people can fly without worrying about friction? Wonder Woman has consistently kept up with Power Girl and been on the same tier as Superman.

Friction occurs in anything that has a medium, it occurs in essentially anything that isn't the vacuum and it should apply in all scenarios that involve a medium. My argument is that Donna won't be able to move that fast becayse friction won't let her, the friction i'm talking about is the same friction that stops Superman from reaching light speed on Earth and that makes Superman struggle to catch Flash as shown in Superman #709 when a mind controlled Flash was running around being destructive...

No Caption Provided

As you can see, tears are falling down Superman's eyes because of the air presenting resistance to the movement, saliva, his face's cheeks are all pulled back because of it, his hair and all that jada jada is proof enough Superman has a limit and is significantly far from being actual light speed, which he can reach in the vacuum of space, likewise, you can see Flash being completely unbothered by the speed he's moving at and lacking everything Superman showed in the instance, this is rather explainable given the nature of Flash's powers and the connection the flashes have with the Speed Force, which grants them a friction-less aura for them to ignore what other people can't and go at light speed or several times the speed of light at any given moment as shown in JSA #24 when Jay Garrick was stripped off his friction-less aura and for that reason he lit himself in fire and was exhausted.

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Hope this serves to explain why i'm stating Wonder Woman doesn't move at the speed of light, much less twice the speed of light and it shouldn't be an argument for Donna at all.

Cheetah despises Wonder Woman and wants her dead. Thus, she was likely going all out, which is much more than the speed of light, especially when we consider that Cheetah at her best has been faster than Superman.

I can understand that, but that doesn't take out the fact Cheetah likes to play with her "victims" and make them suffer the more she hates them. I don't see any valid indicator to support your stance, much less when character development is being overlooked.

Black Flash is many times faster than light and even the upper tier Flashes have found outrunning him exceedingly difficult.

I think i asked for proof about this, i need to see this myself because Wally needed to outrun time and the actual comic in question to outrun Black Flash and there isn't a single being faster than the Flashes or anyone Flash themed in general like Zoom, specially Donna Troy whose most feats are being attributed through comparisons with Wonder Woman.

Regardless of what you think, Wonder Woman unfailingly keeps up with supraluminal beings and tags beings who make Cable look sluggish.

Too bad Donna Troy is not Wonder Woman and the fact Wonder Woman can react to things faster than light doesn't mean she would overpower someone who has near light speed reflexes himself that easily, even less so how you're implying.

I don't need a "speed indicator" in the context you're thinking of. You're essentially asking me to show a statement that says "X opponent was moving at Y speed," but if I can simply show that Donna has blitzed opponents who have reaction speed equal to or greater than Cable, then I win the argument regardless of whether there was any indicator of what speed Donna was moving at.

You need at the very least an indicator to prove your point, you're just stretching the validity of your argument through assumptions. I'm not asking for a statement per se, it could be an environmental justification that they were moving that fast for example, something to make your point any trustworthy. In fact, feel free to post those feats, it should be interesting to see them.

So you're telling me that getting hit with a few tons of metal didn't harm Lightmaster? Lightmaster isn't durable enough at all for that to be true.

The problem here and what i essentially meant was that he wasn't "hit" to begin with, he was simply trapped within those metal scraps and teleported to the moon. I think it's pretty obvious considering he wasn't even bothered nor presented any discomfort when he was getting trapped by Cable, he was even talking normally and then was teleported.

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Regardless, he's was a being made out of pure light, physical damage wasn't a way to beat him and the only reason he was using the suit was to keep him stable, likewise, his handbook entry fromDeadpool Corps: Rank and Foul pretty much states he's incredibly durable, not to mention he has taken on the likes of She-Hulk and whatnot, simple metal scraps shouldn't be a problem for him.

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So, what you're trying to say is that Cable just floated there and let Lansky repeatedly into him, even though he was visibly hurt by every strike? Cable's no masochist, he wouldn't simply allow himself to be hit. If he could have reacted, he would have in order to preclude getting hurt.

He did react, but he simply talked and was blathering nonsense just like Deadpool does. Cable is not a masochist but Deadpool is. What i'm stating is perfectly clear, Cable wasn't operating like himself the first moments he was dealing with Lightmaster, afterwards he pretty much stomped him.

How do we know that Cable didn't put his shields up while Lightmaster was still getting out of the debris? There's really no way to definitively prove that he put the shields up after Lansky had started his blitz.

We know by looking at the previous scan to Lightmaster arriving, we can see Cable flat out stating Lightmaster is even arriving earlier when he's so close to him that he is completely visible the same way Cable's shields are completely invisible, something the artist of the issue made pretty clear when Cable was using them.

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All in all, yes, theres is proof to support the idea of Cable using his shields when Lightmaster was almost colliding with him and it is so blatantly visible it would be unpractical to argue otherwise.

To the contrary, in the panels preceding Cable's telekinetic control of Lansky, he was actually shown to be completely still.

I'm going to ahead and call this a vague analysis mate, Lansky collided with Cable's shields and then he started shooting light beams through his hands to break them, hell, the fact Lansky was right next to Cable when Cable decided to control him and make him clash with the building is also proof he clashed with Cable first prior to shoot the beams.

Observe that in the first panel, Lightmaster is surrounded by a yellow aura. I agree with you that Lansky was moving at lightspeed during that panel, but that's insignificant because Cable already had his shields up.

It is not insignificant because Lightmaster was already on Earth by the time Cable decided to put his shields up, which makes the feat a light speed reaction feat. The fact Lightmaster was flying at such speed and the next panel shows a pretty big clash between light and Cable's shields means he first tried to bullrush towards him like he previously did twice prior to the scan, then he assaulted Cable with light beams.

The second thing you referred to was his telekinetic control of Lightmaster, which occurs on the very next page. If you look at Lightmaster on the third to last panel on this page, he does not have the yellow aura,signifying that Lightmaster was not moving at lightspeeds when Cable TK-controlled him.

I'm sorry, i'm failing to understand what you're saying here. The panel in which Lightmaster is being telekinetically controlled by Cable is the panel that matters, not the previous one. In fact, in the panel that he's been controlled he was glowing like a light bulb and a path of light was pictured while Lansky was getting controlled... As far as i know that could be considered a light aura and even if you disagree with Lanky being moving at light speed, he was certainly moving incredibly fast given a being made out of pure light that only glows when moving at light speed was glowing at that moment.

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This is really the only significant speed feat that Cable has, and it's not even valid. Donna, on the other hand, has multitudinous speed feats to draw from that would put her above this even if it were well founded. I'll get to those in a bit.

This is one of the few feats that would put Cable on the reactions i'm arguing for here, but this is the only feat necessary considering you're arguing for a highly improbable light speed blitz on Donna's side, which not only lacks proof to be supported but the fact is also highly unlikely to happen before Donna falls through Cable's telepathic assault. Donna might have more feats, but the quality of them put the nowhere near light speed as far as combat goes.

In the instances of Cable "reacting" to Lightmaster,

Cable already had his shields up, and might have put them up before Lansky had even broken out of the debris or

Lightmaster wasn't moving.

Cable does not have lightspeed reaction times.

  • Cable put his shields up when Lightmaster was already on Earth while traveling at the speed of light.
  • Light master clashed with Cable and then beamed him, so he moved even though he then stopped to change tactics.
  • He does.

Cable's will is strong enough to fight the Silver Surfer and Galactus? Cool, Donna has the will to fight against mother freaking Eclipso and Starheart Alan Scott.

You need to be less equivocal about your Galactus statement. Are you trying to say that Cable has willpower equivalent to Galactus? If so, I'll need feats for Galactus's willpower. Will is one of the few characteristics that beings with extremely high levels of power do not automatically possess, so I'll need some feats to back that up.

Starheart Alan Scott? I'll need proof of that because even though he's a being mad eout of the Starheart, Starheart Alan Scott is by far one of the most powerful beings in DC and fail to see how a very watered down Wonder Woman would stand the slightest of chances against him, Either way, Alan isn't known for having a consistent level of will, he suffers from mental disorders that dampen his potential most of the time, he even bleeds because he thinks he needs to bleed when punched and his will keeps waving almost all the time.

I flat out stated Silver Surfer compared Cable to Galactus as far as his passion and will goes, i don't have that many feats that directly address Galactus's will but the fact he managed to keep Odin at bay in a telepathic battle while starving, ultimately affecting Odin's own memories with intrusive thoughts and breaking his will to the point of make him claim "we are all hungry" and beating him afterwards during The Mighty Thor #4 is a proof of will in my book, specially since Odin can wipe minds with simple hand gestures world-wide and effortlessly and even took out his own left eye and hanged himself from a tree and died for his people.

Anyways, i think this feat should be enough, we're talking about an Asgardian Sky-Father known to defy deities way out of his league consistently and known for experimenting the harshest of trials to become who he is. For the sake of the argument i must let you know that Cable not only overpowered Hulk's will and multi-personality disorder but he also overpowered Onslaught's will over Hulk while weakened, which was the combined will of Magneto, Xavier and Franklin Richards altogether duringIncredible Hulk #444.

In one of my favorite New 52 fights, Donna manages to keep up with GoW Wonder Woman rather easily throughout 8 pages, and Wonder Woman cannot defeat her physically and thus has to resort to using the Lasso of Truth to subdue her.

Although there was no direct indication of speed, Wonder Woman was fighting to liberate her sisters from Donna's noxious propaganda and influence, so it's safe to say she wasn't playing around, although she was trying to also teach Donna that her ways were wrong.

Nonetheless, Donna did score some quality hits on Wonder Woman, and that's a massive feat by itself. To put it into perspective, here are a few of Wonder Woman's feats in the New 52...

New-52 Wonder Woman is also a greatly inferior to her Pre-52 predecessor and she has done nothing to put her on the same level as Pre-Flashpoint Wonder Woman. The fight is impressive, but i fail to see how does that make Donna any more impressive than the way you were arguing for her here. Not only i see the feat way below light speed itself, but the fact you showed a different version as well. I can understand where you're coming from, but that fight has nothing against my feat. I've read most of New-52 material of all the Justice League characters, so let's address these feats.

  • Keeps up with Supergirl, don't know why it is a light speed feat considering she also kept up with Flash and he was holding back and not fighting at the speed of light.
  • Wonder Woman wasn't taking on both Superman and Green Lantern, hell, the only reason she punched Green Lantern in the first place was because he had her encased in a construct with him inside and he was simply talking to her and she sucker punched her... Not only she had his hands full with Green Lantern alone, but the fact she kicked Superman once mainly because he was trying to stop her without recurring to violence.
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  • The Omega Beam is fine and dandy, still, i don't think it's a light speed feat, much less considering Wonder Woman could very easily have his bracelets up before Darkseid shot the beams, even more so when she was already aware of how they worked and knew that was his go to tactic. Regardless, in the same issue she failed to react properly to Darkseid's punch which i honestly can't sell as light speed, not even hypersonic if i'm allowed to say so myself.
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This same lady that easily reacted to a Green Lantern, blitzed a Kryptonian, and reacted to the Omega Beams? Donna foughtevenly with her until she used her Lasso. Oh, and when Donna fought WW, she was the God of War, while in these instances, she wasn't.

That's right, Donna scored hits on an amped version of a girl that reacted to Green Lanterns and blitzed a Kryptonian. Those are beings that are many times faster than light, but Donna did better against Diana than any of them as far as speed goes.

She reacted to a Green Lantern, which was moving so fast normal people was still able to see them fighting. She didn't blitz either Green Lantern nor Superman, she sucker punched both of them and the Omega Beams instance is highly questionable and hardly sufficient to prove light speed reactions. I don't know if being the God of War amps her speed, i mean, her speed comes from Hermes to begin with, an entirely different god.

n this story arc, the Titans were battling the Seven Deadly Sins, sons of Trigon. One of the Sins was "Lust," a man with the power to make anyone fall so deeply in love with him that they would fight their closest friends for his love. Wally West and Donna fell under Lust's influence, and fought each other.

Under this influence, Wally should have easily knocked Donna out with his punches. He was trying to defeat her. However, Donna managed to take all of his punches, and even evade him for a moment. I'm not saying that she's fast as or faster than Wally, but I believe that if she managed to evade him then she should be more than fast enough to blitz Cable.

I think we have different interpretations here mate. Even though i can agree with you Wally should dispatch her quite easily under those terms, he didn't fight that fast because he was right next to her and in order to punch beings on Superman's durability or something he needs to speed himself up to a quite decent degree to gain mass. Either way, the main problem lies in Donna "evading" him. She didn't do such thing, she flew away in an attempt of grounding him while diving and she missed. If anything, the only thing that instance does is prove Donna isn't anywhere near as fast as a Flash, which is contradictory to your argument with Jesse Quick, or is it? It actually supports my idea Jesse was not moving that fast.

This is probably Donna's best speed feat.

Here, she manages to blitz a Green Lantern, John Stewart while he was possessed by Jericho.

I'm just going to restrain myself from quoting all of that. I know John Stewart, i know how powerful he is and i'm well aware of his potential, however, i fail to see how this instance helps Donna's case here. John Stewart wasn't paying attention to her to begin with, he was focused on launching green missiles to the city when she tackled him from outside his line of sight. After that he even focuses on the Teen Titans while she tries to restrain him... I don't subscribe to your notion here and i wouldn't consider the instance to be any helpful to your case, much less Donna's best speed feat, because it isn't one in the first place.

I agree with you on this; however, I wasn't trying to say that this is Cable's maximum speed but that the feat merely isn't impressive in the debate pertaining to speed, and that point still stands.

I still think it's impressive even though it's not the fastest he has reacted.

Donna has still blitzed a Green Lantern as well as a Superboy clone, each of whom should be above Cable's top speed which is at this point lightspeed.

In that case we wouldn't need any indication of how fast G.L. or Donna was moving because Stewart has explicitly shown FTL reaction times and Donna was blatantly able to surpass that.

I think you're running out of feats to showcase Donna as a light speedster. Superboy isn't light speed if Superman isn't. John Stewart, while i can agree with you he has high reactions same as Superman, he didn't show the against Donna mainly because he wasn't dealing with her at any moment to the point of being completely oblivious the location she came from to tackle him.

I still need to see these tons of feats that surpass Cable's.

You keep talking about "objective speed". If Donna was able to blitz someone who has FTL reaction speeds, then that's the speed she moves at, especially when given that she's evaded other beings of a similar caliber and has shown to be comparable to speed force users such as that alternate Flash and Jesse Quick.

It's not objective speed, it's objectiveness when addressing a speed feat. You're calling Donna a light speedster because she fought someone, that at some point in his publication, in a completely unrelated instance to the one in question, showed to react at light speed or more. Look, Donna can react that fast, i have no problem with it, but i fail to see how is she moving that fast, people like Superman and other speedsters have failed to move that fast on Earth because of friction, fighting Flashes is a reaction feat, not exactly moving as fast as them and Jesse Quick wasn't moving at light speed mainly because she didn't access the Speed Force, which Diana was about to do when trying to catch up with her.

She didn't evade no one, you grossly misinterpreted the scan as far as i know, i still need to see the Alternate Flash thing, i guess you're referring to Black Flash right?

Also, just because you think Diana's top speed is lightspeed doesn't make it factual. She has kept up with opponents who are FTL and blood-lusted, so she is faster than light herself.

Cable's top reaction speed is lightspeed (and honestly even that's questionable given that Lightmaster wasn't moving when Cable TK-controlled him). Donna exceeds that.

Is not what i think, that's actually the highest speed she has shown on combat on Earth against another foe. She has kept with people that can move FTL while traveling. She might have reactions faster than light and can move her limbs accordingly but she can't move faster than that.

You've failed to showcase Donna moving that fast, according to your arguments "she is" but there's nothing definitive rather than faulty ABC logic and sketchy interpretations if i'm sincere with you, i showed you a solid lightspeed feat and you recurred to compare her with Diana, using different versions of Donna and flat out assumptions on instances that shouldn't be considered lightspeed mate. Cable didn't controlled Lightmaster when he was moving, he made him move that fast considering he turned once again into light when he did, he reacted to Lansky's lightspeed bullrush as well and Lightmaster has been confirmed on panel and in his handbook to be able to fight at those speeds. I don't know what's questionable about it.

You need to elaborate on the Galactus statement. Did someone simply say that he had willpower comparable to Galactus, or was there a way that they actually measured it?

I already did. Silver Surfer compared Cable's passion to Galactus and that such passion turns into hunger, just as Galactus's. There's no way to measure something like Will rather than showcase how powerful it is and Cable overpowered Onslaught and overpowered Hulk, he also was so focused on his target he didn't care to BFR one of his best friends so far in the future he would die, namely Bishop, he has also gone against his best friends more than once just to follow his believes.

Donna's willpower has:

  1. Enabled her to use a weapon that relies on willpower and her bending others to her will.
  2. Allowed her to use sheer willpower to force a telepath to do what she wants - and resist TP through pure willpower.
  3. Keep fighting Eclipso even when there was little to no hope left.

Your vague statements don't hold a candle to her.

  • That's cool, don't know how that makes her superior to Cable.
  • The telepath is nigh-featless and doesn't have the slighest chance to be on Cable's tier. I mean, he is powerful enough to keep away Xavier and Jean Grey together, Emma Frost needed to use Cerebro to keep him away and she was struggling while doing it, he was having a telepathic fight so powerful and absurdly out of control with Nate Grey the Astral Plane was going to be merged with the physical plane and by Blacksmith's own admission was bordering in reality warp, overpowered Hulk twice, overpowered Onslaught while weakened and had the entirety of the Earth ionized with his telepathic waves. Donna has done nothing compared to this to suggest she can keep Cable out of her mind, she would be mind raped and telekinetically dispatched by putting pressure capable of overpowering Hulk himself on a simple blood vessel, turning her into a useless child mind-wise.
  • That's fine, too bad that's something inexplicably similar to what Captain America has done when fighting Galactus, Celestials, leading an intergalactic war against The Builders, against Ex-Nihilo and Abyss when he's the last Avengers standing, Thanos and others and that didn't keep a weakened Cable out of his mind as proven in Cable & X-Force #10 when he telepathically assaulted the entirety of the Uncanny Avengers roster including Thor who happens to have a very similar description to Steve and Donna's will (which admittedly was off-panel).
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It's not cague statements, my feats speak for themselves and i don't need to recur to compare my character to another one to show just how powerful he is, he's flat out beating and dealing with powerful foes by himself. Cable will telepathically assault her and turn her into a carrot, and as you may know, your strongest team member is as strong as the weakest, meaning your team will fall against mine given Blue Beetle has no business here and Donna will be forced to cooperate with me and take a nap accordingly.

Blue Beetle vs Banner

You still haven't proved that Cable has the speed to react to Donna, and frankly, Donna could resist his telepathy with her will just as she did to Bogeyman. He still gets blitzed. But let's ignore Donna and Cable for a moment and focus on Jaime and Banner.

Bogeyman is in an entirely different tier than Cable, you can't possibly compare him to one of Marvel's most powerful telepaths when he's a nobody. I think we've argued about speed extensively, i disagree with your feats, they can be hardly considered lightspeed and i do not subscribe to your ABC logic here. Donna is not Diana and she certainly lacks the feat to imply she will have similar reactions. Banner is the character i would like to talk the most.

Quite the contrary; I also said that Firestorm could potentially take a few rounds of this by himself, without any support from Donna.

You're grossly overrating Firestorm, without his teammates he'll be overpowered quite easily.

Here's the problem with that statement: Banner is far too slow to defend himself. Blue Beetle can both hack his tech and, if that doesn't work, fry his nerves incapacitating him. If Cable can't react to Donna, then Banner's KO'd. If Cable can react to Donna, then Banner gets all his technology transmuted by Firestorm. There's really no scenario in which Banner is a factor at all.

I think you're ignoring what is shown in your citations. Blue Beetle didn't hack anything without literally plugging the Scarab into the space ship main computer. You're arguing for him as if he has some kind of technopathy by proximity, which Banner actually has and it takes literally just a second for him to put it to work. Moreover, i was planning to showcase this part of Banner's gear in the next round given i wanted to have some cards under my sleeve but as i previously told you, there's no point in that. Banner starts invisible in this match considering he'll be wearing his "mirror" coat that reflects light and makes him essentially invisible as proven in Indestructible Hulk #17 when he passed in front of an entire army of S.H.I.E.L.D agents unnoticed.

While i know Blue Beetle has scanners that can detect camouflaged beings, it takes time for said scanners to adjust to Jaime's human vision, therefore, granting Banner enough time to shut the scarab down as originally planned. That said, i'm fairly skeptical about his scanners detecting Banner, the fact mirrors tend to trick sensors because it reflects the same waves they release to detect things makes me think Jaime won't be able to find him. Furthermore, i think you're starting to overuse Firestorm, initially you stated he'll be dealing with Hulk, why would he go for Banner now? The way you're picturing Firestorm multitasking, changing targets and changing decisions just because without any repercussion on the battlefield is very unlikely, like, not possible at all to be honest. Firestorm shouldn't be able to notice Banner off the bat either and while i can agree with Firestorm's ability to transmute Banner's gear, i don't agree with your strategy being able to accomplish that.

Still, there wasn't anything to suggest that that had any effect on hacking the mothership. The scarab has hacked other things in the past without being plugged in, such as other scarabs in Blue Beetle #13...

The instance is especially compelling when considering that each scarab is a technopath on its own. So, Beetle was able to out-hack multiple technopaths. I believe this not only shows that the scarab being plugged in had little to no effect on the hacking abilities, but it's also another feat that shows Beetle's superiority in this department.

But honestly, none of this even matters that much because Banner would never get the chance to do such a thing. Both Beetle's blasts and, more importantly, Firestorm's transmutation, are instantaneous and could disable Banner from the match entirely.

Jaime nor the Scarab hacked anything in that issue, specially since it is blatantly stated that Jaime is just overriding his own scarab programming with his "choices". That's all that happened there, there was no hacking involved, just Jaime taking over the Scarab and overpowering his most basic programming, which is completely understandable considering Jaime is fused with the Scarab to begin with. I think you're trying to argue something you won't be able to prove. The Scarab has its ways to hack, but they work in a completely different way than how you're trying to sell them here. My argument stands, the scarab is shut down via a powerful virus not even people with pico-second information processing, master hackers (including aliens) and people capable of challenging cosmic entities and be completely immune to wakandian EMPs can resist.

Your go to strategy is fan fiction, it's way too unlikely to happen.

Not at all. Banner is going to be the one who goes down incredibly fast, because each of my team members can one-shot him, and once again you've hinged your entire strategy on Cable's questionable lightspeed reaction feat being enough to combat Donna's faster-than-light feats against John Stewart, alternate reality Flashes etc.

So now you're saying either of your characters is going for Banner for no particular reason? I thought Firestorm was going for Hulk, Donna for Cable and Blue Beetle for Banner. Donna can't see Banner to begin with, Firestorm would be too busy trying to harm someone he can't really put down and Cable would manhandle Donna into a carrot... Blue Beetle on the other hand would be nullified completely through Banner's hacking with a Dome the size of Manhattan that affects all Non-BannerTech electronics... Jaime is useless here, should have had Firestorm go for Cable given how versatile he is, Donna for Banner given she uses nothing but physicals and Jaime for Hulk given he can keep his distance and survive while your other teammates handle mine...HOWEVER, that strategy is not yours to call and the fact you already decided how your team would play here, means there's no turning back and i'm strongly against "changing" strategy without proper justification through character development in the middle of the fight.

Firestorm vs Hulk

Come on now, you really believe that Hulk is just going to walk through all of Firestorm's attacks? Even if Hulk is more durable than Black Adam, it's not by much especially given that Black Adam has tanked hits fromvirtually the entire JSA. In addition, Firestorm defeated Teth in a single blast; if he hits Hulk withmultipleblasts like this, Hulk should go down.

I really do believe Hulk is too durable for Firestorm to bring him down. Black Adam has been harmed by Mr. T, Hourman, a simple heat vision from Martian Manhunter and even Wildcat, if you're going to use Black Reign story arc, i think you'll need to mention a bunch of street levelers and Hourman harming him easily. Black Adam lacks Hulk's healing factor (which works instantly) and his powerset is perfectly attuned to work with time.

You are.

I said that Firestorm could solo without Donna's help.

You, on the other hand, cannot counter Jaime's neural blasts or Firestorm's BFR without Cable.

Ok... I think i've debated for every single one of my characters playing a big role here, using their gear to the fullest and handling their adversaries how they would in-character. I don't think i've been that reliant on Cable given 1 of your teammates is already completely immune to 2 of his most powerful and basic forms of attack. The fact you have that feeling is because it is you who are focusing everything on Donna blitzing Cable, if you tried a different strategy it wouldn't seem that way... Just sayin'

How exactly is Firestorm soloing? By performing in a way he sure as hell wouldn't be able to? By being intangible all the time, blasting everyone with Black Adam ordinance beams, transmuting inorganic matter and blitzing at the same time? Don't you think that's actually incredibly far fetched? C'mon now.

Jaime won't be able to use it and you never proved Firestorm can BFR people and the instance you chose to showcase this ability was done when he was using a Mother Box, hence the reason why it sounded like "BOOM" everytime he opened the portal.

Banner's shields are irrelevant as he will never have the time to get them up. Blue Beetle is a character who moves far faster than human thought; he could incapacitate Banner before Banner even knows what happened, even if hacking doesn't work.

He doesn't need to get them up because they are always up...

Your attempt of Counter

What willpower feats have you shown that put Cable above Donna?

Donna uses a weapon that relies on willpower, and has used nothing but will to force telepaths to mind-rape themselves. She's never given up on a battle and has kept fighting no matter how much physical or emotional pain she is in. In Blackest Night she resisted the transformation into a Black Lantern longer than anyone else did.

You need to show me some willpower feats.

I've mentioned them above. Donna using a physical weapon driven by Will power means nothing when telepathy itself is completely sustained by it as well. When fighting another telepath is about telepathic prowess and flat out will to either overpower or keep one away from your mind... Essentially, telepathy is a weapon driven with will just as much as a magic Lasso. She didn't forced "telepaths", she tricked a nobody into doing it, the funniest thing here is that by showcasing her supposed "light speed combat speed" you also shown how weak her will can turn out to be, given Lust still controlled her and made her fight Flash without any problems whatsoever. I understand he might be powerful but so is Cable.

I already did, serve yourself.

Apologies, but only showing this one instance is not sufficient to say that Cable can telepathically overpower Donna in the slightest. Different incarnations of Hulk have vastly different degrees of telepathic resistance; show me some feats of this version of Hulk and then we can talk.

I don't know what's wrong with the instance, Cable overpowered Hulk and Onslaught turning him into Grey Hulk, he overpowered him again as Grey Hulk and overpowered him a third time as Savage Hulk bringing him back to Professor Hulk. There's no reason to disbelieve what i'm showing you or be any skeptical about it, i already showed you Cable overpowering Savage Hulk and Onslaught's will together and that Hulk has resisted telepathy from Xavier, Cosmic Cube beings and Xemnu who can affect people across galaxies. Either way, for the sake of the debate he also overpowered Grey Hulk with a simple telepathic bolt through the head, forcing Savage Hulk to come out again (then comes the instance previously cited in this post of him overpowering Savage Hulk as well)

Likewise, he maintained both Xavier and Jean Grey outside his mind and both of them noted how they couldn't get inside his mind and he wasn't even trying when he did it back in Cable #29, i thought this feat would be enough to seal the deal here but i just noticed i didn't quite showed you just how powerful cable was.

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Moving on... During Cable & Deadpool #8 Emma Frost was shielding the X-Men from Cable's telepathic waves that were surrounding the entire planet and in order to do that she needed a boost from Cerebro, something that amps the telepathic abilities of anyone who uses it thousandfold and she was still struggling to keep him away from the X-Men's minds.

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So what do we have here so far? We have:

  • Cable overpowering Hulk in 3 different incarnations.
  • Cable overpowering Onslaught.
  • Cable overpowering Xavier and Jean Grey combined.
  • Cable making Emma Frost struggle to keep him away when he wasn't even focusing on her.
  • Cable overpowering the entirety of the Uncanny Avengers including Captain America, Rogue and Thor (the latter being resistant to Hope Summers)
  • Cable having a telepathic fight with someone compared to the Dark Phoenix, namely Nate Grey and was so intense they were about to warp reality because of it.

I think there's WAY too much prove that Donna is falling against Cable, her telepathic resistance feats are pitiful in comparison to what Cable has done weakened and without trying as well, her will is all fine and dandy but she has no business fighting someone like Cable, specially since her only feat is overpowering a Bogeyman, which isn't on Cable's tier to begin with. The fun thing is there's even more to show.

Alan Scott has broken free of the influence of extremely powerful telepaths (such as Brainwave) and during his possessed phase the Starheart actually took control of Obsidian and Dr. Fate, two of the most powerful telepaths in the DCU.

While he isn't immune to telepathy, he always breaks free of it after being initially affected and the fact that Donna was more resistant to telepathy than a Starheart user is very impressive.

Do you see where the problem lies here? This is like saying She Hulk can resist omega level telepaths because her cousin does, they share the same powerset so why wouldn't it apply? It doesn't apply because they are not the same character and the same should be said about the feats you're naming. You're mentioning Ala Scott's feats to attribute them to a Starheart user which is exponentially below Alan himself, in order to attribute Donna a feat. The ABC logic is unbearable here, i'm sorry, i can't agree with anything of this. Is the feat impressive? Sure, i can give you that but flat out usable against someone like Nathan? Hell no.

It's because that Blue Beetle wasn't only able to resist her, but he completely incapacitated her when she tried to look into his mind. The degree to which he resisted her was such that she couldn't even get a glimpse of his thoughts.

Anyways, there is another way that Beetle can resist telepathy.

I'm having a feeling you're overlooking what i'm showing you. Cable was about to warp reality against someone that only by sharing thoughts he starts having a nose bleed and extreme pain in the brain as shown in Cable #46 since Nathan and Nate are genetically the same person, they share a strong feedback that puts them in agony to the point of affecting them physically as well, but the fact this guy maintained a prolonged fight with Nate and that didn't fried his brains, but the contrary, even after that he managed to repair Nathan's mind and restore his powers and it was confirmed on panel there was no one who could accomplish such thing, only Cable. If there's anything goin around that feat is that the telepath who assaulted Jamie wasn't skilled nor powerful enough... Poor's man telepathy IMO.

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The other tactic is useless, he kills himself, Banner's deactivates the Scarab and Jamie dies once and for all. Bad move there.

I'm not relying on her in the slightest. I've said multiple times that Firestorm can take your entire team down by himself.

Yet your whole strategy revolves on her success. Look it's irrelevant whether you think you're relying on her or not, the fact she can't blitz Cable to begin with makes her dead weight for your time.

Let me reiterate why Banner isn't going to be a factor in this fight at all.

This is a HIGH TIER battle. Each character here is massively hypersonic, with Donna being faster than the speed of light, Blue Beetle being around the Mach 100 range and Firestorm being somewhere in the middle.

This entire fight is going to happen before Banner even processes what is going on. In the first millisecond, the outcome of Donna's blitz will have been determined. In another millisecond, Firestorm will have either knocked out or BFR'd the Incredible Hulk.

At this point Banner still hasn't even processed a single image and hasn't even had a thought yet. Even if Blue Beetle wasn't present in the fight, he would either have all his tech transmuted or his mind taken over by Cable under Donna's influence.

Banner is a human. He's not even a peak human and is pitifully slow compared to everyone else in this battle. He's not going to get the chance to do anything.

I don't understand... What has Banner being human to do with the fact he can handle high tiers? That's an incredibly weak, flawed and lazy way to determine whether a character can deal with others or not. Banner is invisible in this fight, has the only counter for intangibility, has shields strong enough to withstand assaults from Juggernaut with minimum damage, as well as tank several hits from a Hulk that was shaking the Earth with 5.6 Earthquakes, as well as tanking hits across the US from an enraged Red She Hulk and ultimately being able to tank a full hit from a guy whose beams were capable of shattering a planet the size of Mars.

You've conclusively failed to prove Donna is faster than light, you've failed to prove Blue Beetle would survive being hacked by Banner, a Banner he won't be able to see to begin with and you've failed to show any reasonable way why Firestorm would completely neglect the first strategy you proposed and go for Banner or any other character, hell, the fact you've been arguing for Donna's speed just sped up the entire match. 2/3 of your team will be completely nullified in the very first seconds of the fight, there's no way in hell Firestorm is doing anything that fast when dealing with 3 characters at the same time, i mean, i wouldn't think he would tunnel vision an entire fight because you decided to consider Banner into the threat he really is. Moreover, from where are you getting this time frames? You have shown NOTHING to support this mate!

You're overrating speed way too much, specially about a character that is seriously lacking in that department according to your arguments, either way, i don't understand what being a human here makes any difference, Banner can tank, Banner can deal with each one of your characters in very unique ways and has counter measures to be a useful characters, nothing like what you've shown about Donna and Blue Beetle to be honest.

Donna isn't going to be fighting against him; rather, Cable will be the one fighting against your team with the magical Lasso of Persuasion.

But even if she were fighting against him (she's not), Firestorm wouldn't be fazed at all. Various incarnations of Firestorm have taken on (and sometimes taken down!):

  • A Justice League roster consisting of Superman, Wonder Woman, Hawkman, Zatanna, and Red Tornado
  • An Injustice League roster consisting of Black Adam, Amazo, Parasite, and the Royal Flush Gang
  • A different Injustice League roster consisting of Gorilla Grodd, Dr. Light, Killer Frost, Lex Luthor, Cheetah, Poison Ivy, and Deathstroke
  • Darkseid
  • The Anti-Monitor

Against these individuals and groups, Firestorm has always kept a cool head and thought logically and coherently, never buckling under the pressure. He's a very experienced superhero and I fail to see why he's going to be confused on why Hulk isn't one-shotted or be afraid of the pressure.

My guess is he's going to try to one-shot the less durable ones with a blast (Cable and Banner) and then BFR the Hulk.

But all this is hypothetical and wouldn't happen at all. Donna has enough speed to blitz Cable.

I think we've come to a strong disagreement on Donna so i'll just leave her out for this part. Either way, i need prove for ALL of this because i fail to see why Firestorm would beat a team consisting in a very powerful roster, specially since Zatanna is there, who is an extremely hax character. The same goes to the Injustice Roster, are you aware Amazo is there? Is there any context that should be noted because i'm finding rather absurd Firestorm can take on someone who stomped the entirety of the Justice League and needed Flash to play extremely smart to beat him, plus, his powers aren't restricted to anything considering he even copied the Worlologs powers IIRC, so what's stopping him from copying Firestorm as well?

I can see him beating the other roster and maybe Darkseid given how consistently Superman is enough to give him trouble or flat out beat him (unless you're talking about an avatar) but the Anti-Monitor? I need proof of this too, issue citation and everything.

You guessed wrong when you pitted him against Hulk and you were very conclusive about it, but the time he figures out he needs to take on other people it would be too late.

That battle was against random, nameless fodder. He came in cocky because he knew that it would be easy; with basic knowledge on Banner he's not going to do the same. Rather, he's going to turn all of Banner's technology into butterflies and render it useless.

Basic knowledge wouldn't let him know Banner has such amount of useful technology plus, Banner is invisible, can teleport right next to him and shoot him without him without him even noticing he was there. You're now claiming Firestorm will start transmuting everything here and there which is unlikely because my strategy is nothing but mostly a reaction to what you planned and seems unfair and rather impossible for you to change an initial strategy without me doing the same.

Sure. This is a rather tricky topic, but I'll do my best to explain it.

The Firestorm Matrix is one of the four fundamental forces of the universe, representing what humans conceive as Fire in comparison to the other four forces of Earth, Air, and Water as explained in Brightest Day and in Firestorm Vol. 3 Issues 20-30. It occupies its very own dimension that is spread out across space and time, and anyone that truly harnesses all of the power of the Firestorm Matrix would become a universal level power, as shown when Elemental Firestorm held a universe in his palm. Note that this does NOT mean that the version of Firestorm is a universal power; he's merely harnessing a fraction of this energy.

Because of its vast power and the fact that it's spread out across space and time, there are small breaches - subatomic wormholes - into the future, that certain elements of the Matrix can look into. The only element that has been shown to have this power is Martin Stein, who is included in the Composite Firestorm that I am using.

Can you show me him using it in combat? Because as far as my research goes, he can only see into the future while dreaming and he can't pin point a time frame he would like to see, making it useless for combat.

Hold on, I never said that she was as good as Wonder Woman. She isn't. But she's still good enough to deal with the likes of Cable.

In addition, I brought up multitudinous new feats in this post, feats that put her above anything Cable's done even if the Lightmaster feat is valid (which it isn't).

You're consistently and routinely comparing here to Wonder Woman and using Wonder Woman's feats to support Donna's, as far as i can tell you really think she's on Wonder Woman's tier, when she isn't... At all. I saw your feats and i can't figure out the reason why you believe ANY of those feats is superior to light speed, or even light speed itself. They are unquantifiable, the had context, most of them were flat out misinterpreted and the use of ABC logic was fallacious.

You've shown no willpower feats for Cable that trump those of Donna.

I already did, the problem is you never asked for them.

From what I've seen, the TO Virus just turns organic matter into technology. If this is the case then Firestorm can easily just transmute these non-organic parts which would also kill or incapacitate Cable.

It turns it into technology, but doesn't change it to inorganic, it's still organic and has fully functioning cells and all that jada jada. Regardless, Cable almost cure himself through the same method you're going to attempt here and that only made him exponentially more powerful and by more powerful i mean almost Dark Phoenix powerful. Even though i don't think you can transmute him, if you're successful it's going to be bad news for you, given Cable without the Techno Virus is as powerful as Shaman Nate, which is equal to the Dark Phoenix, which is horrendously above anyone in this match by all means as stated inCable #29...

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I wouldn't think is a wise choice to do so.

I believe that I've already shown many feats of Firestorm one-shotting New Gods and Black Adam, so I'm going to need more feats for Cable's shields than that instance, because Silver Surfer was obviously holding back as he straight-up demolishes Cable once he gets serious.

And regardless, Firestorm can just transmute the shields away. He's transmuted things such as negative matter, gamma radiation, and light, so I don't see why he couldn't transmute the shields away.

In addition, Firestorm can transmute things even through shields and walls; shields wouldn't do anything to his ability to transmute something that's already inside Cable.

Well... Cable doesn't have feats to put his shields above Black Adam's durability nor on Hulk's durability, but while weakened he was still able to tank Hulk punches on 2 different incarnations while he was increasingly angry. Moreover, Cable was also holding back against Silever Surfer and he was fighting him while he was sustaining the entirety of Providence and a huge flying ship in the air while he was fighting against Silver Surfer in Sydney. Basically he was using a quite decent chunk of his telekinesis on holding the virus down, holding a city and a flying ship across the world, he didn't even attempted to mind-rape Silver Surfer even though he already was inside his mind, if there was someone holding back there, it was Cable. Regardless, i have already shown you how Cable can redirect energy blasts as shown in Cable Annual from 1999 when he deflected an energy projectile in a fraction of a heartbeat.

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Can you show me Firestorm transmuting telekinetic shields? Because the examples you gave me all have something that clearly is applicable for Firestorm's abilities. Gamma Radiation is radiation and he has done it on panel, Negative Matter has matter, no reason for him not be able to do it, light belongs to the spectrum, same as Gamma Radiation, but telekinesis hardly falls under that category, hell, i wouldn't consider those things transmutable at all considering telekinesis isn't even energy but the ability to manipulate and control the environment with different degrees of application. You can't transmute what isn't actually there to begin with.

You don't recall correctly. Firestorm has never had possession of a Mother Box that I know of. In that issue he was with Mr. Miracle, who did have a Mother Box, but Firestorm himself didn't have one.

And besides, Firestorm has used Zeta Radiation to send people away and has also sent them to the Firestorm Matrix, multiple times.

So, yes, he does have other feats regarding this ability.

Actually, you're wrong, Firestorm did have a Mother Box in that occasion and he actually asked Mister Miracle to hand him one of the mother boxes in his possession to deal with the parademon assault back in Firestorm: The Nuclear Man #35, here is the relevant part of the scan...

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Moreover, you have to at least give me the citation of the Zeta Radiation because i fail to see how he's actually BFR people there, moreover, it's not something he can actually control given it is strongly implied it was side-effect of something he did and i'm starting to think it happened under specific stipulations.

Donna absolutely does have the speed to blitz Cable as I've debunked the Lightmaster instance as well as promoted Donna's own speed feats to a point where that she's undoubtedly above Cable.

She does not, you haven't debunked anything, not even proved she was lightspeed. She goes down with a thought... Literally.

Jaime isn't needed in this battle because Bruce Banner is far too slow and frail to be of use to anyone, but he can still one-shot Bruce Banner before Banner even processes what is going on, even if hacking multiple technopaths isn't a good enough feat to say he can hack BannerTech.

Jaime isn't needed and he's also useless, the fact Banner is a human with human reflexes means squat when he has a bunch of paraphernalia to rely on, gadgets that would turn Jaime into nothing but dead meat for your team and i'm growing tired of this "one shot" claim you keep mentioning. Bruce Banner's shields have taken MUCH more punishment than what Blue Beetle has ever been able to deliver, specially since it can take a direct hit from a guy whose beams were shattering a planet the size of Mars in half back in Incredible Hulks #616 when his shields were at 2% and even after taking the beam they went down to 0.23%, so it didn't even damaged him that much.

Coupled with Banner Tech withstanding assaults from Juggernaut with minor shield damage, assaults from Hulk, assaults from Red She Hulk and Stark's satellites destined to KO World Breaker Hulk means he should be able to withstand Blue Beetle's beam. That said, i think you're grossly overestimating Blue Beetle while underestimating Banner. He doesn't need to be a confirmed High-Tier, the fact he can keep up with people that are actually high-tiers or solid powerhouses on their own right is enough to be completely relevant in this fight. Just before you claim Banner can't block a neural disrupting beam, he can, considering he has blocked cosmic beams, kinetic energy, explosions, blunt force, lasers and whatnot, so electricity shouldn't be an issue.

Donna's willpower is far, far stronger than Cable and has granted her a higher degree of telepathy resistance than Starheart users who themselves have resisted the highest order of telepaths. Cable can't react to a blitz and will be unable to use his telepathy regardless.

Very confident and completely unsupported statement when by your own admission you haven't seen Cable's will power and asked for proof. Regardless, her will is questionable given she easily fell for Bogeyman and figured out how to deal with the assault after quite a long time and she also fell for Lust, with Cable she will be mentally subjugated and dispatched with telekinesis and she has absolutely no counter for it, i mean, Cable can assault beings that shrug off telepathic assaults of planet enslavers and cosmic cube beings... Donna is a child's play. Cable will react to the blitz, she can't move that fast and you've failed to debunk Cable's feat, much less prove she will restrain Cable before he busts her brains out through her ears with telekinesis.

Firestorm is going to transmute all of Banner's technology into cake with a thought as soon as he can and there's nothing Banner can do about it.

Banner will be invisible, Firestorm wasn't going for Banner to begin with and changing targets because reasons isn't a logical possibility within the character development of your team. You chose your strategy and you need to defend it, not adapt it to every counter i'll bring. As i said before, the way my characters are playing here are mostly driven by your own actions, given you were the one playing on the reckless offensive and divided the match in 1v1 scenarios, at least on your side.

Hulk is also extremely vulnerable to BFR and honestly can be harmed by Firestorm. Come to think of it, your entire team is. What's stopping Firestorm from just sending them all a couple light-years away for a victory?

Hulk can be harmed by Firestorm but he sure as hell isn't going down with the force you've shown, even less so when his healing factor prevents it. That said, i think you're stretching your capabilities... First you divided your team in 1v1 matches, then you claimed Firestorm would deal with Banner first, then you claimed Firestorm would BFR all of them... I mean, don't you think those scenarios are quite unlikely to happen, even more so when they do not share a decent justification as to why they are going to happen besides my team posing a threat you didn't expect at first?

Firestorm's immune, the scarab can kill Jaime so that he has no mind and revive him later, and Donna is nigh-immune.

I know Firestorm is immune, never tried to assault him, Donna on the other hand lacks feats to suggest she can stand up to Cable's telepathy when the most powerful telepaths of Marvel either struggle or are flat out unable to overpower Cable. The scarab killing Jaime is an absurdly unpractical countermeasure, you'll waste time and the scarab will be nullified through Banner-Tech instantly, Jaime is as useless as a square tire.

Cable is going to be blitzed, Donna can evade the attack and Firestorm has control over his own molecules anyways.

I disagree and anyone who sees the feats will also disagree. Donna can't evade what she can't see and Firestorm will be dealt in other ways.

Banner is far too slow to be of use in this particular battle and Jaime is a better technopath anyways.

Yeah... There's nothing right about this statement.

Firestorm will transmute all of your tech before that can happen.

Not really. You've failed to prove WHY Firestorm is changing his first target, HOW he will be focused on banner if your team has no communication whatsoever and the fact they are all rushing without any previous conversation will dampen the chances of Firestorm even operating as you're suggesting. I'm also partially skeptical about Firestorm being able to see invisible beings, care to show me an instance, because the only one i recall is highly questionable and most likely he just figured out the people was invisible, not that he could see invisible people... If he can't Banner would be unphased and he'll be the sabotage commando in this entire battle, dealing with both Firestorm and Blue Beetle.

Summary

Defensive

  1. All my characters have counters to telepathy. Firestorm's immune as you well know, Donna's willpower is too strong for her to be affected, and Jaime can play dead in order to evade the attack.
  2. Banner can't even process how fast any of my characters will be moving. He's a non-factor.
  3. There's no way any of your characters can really put down Firestorm given his intangibility.

Offensive

  1. Donna is fast enough to blitz. Her feats against Wally West, Green Lantern, and GoW Wonder Woman make her faster than Cable, who honestly doesn't even have lightspeed reaction times as I have previously delineated.
  2. If Donna is fast enough to blitz, your entire team goes down due to Cable being on my team and mind-raping your team.
  3. If she isn't, then Firestorm can still solo this match. He can BFR Hulk, turn all of Banner's gadgets into cake and either BFR Cable or just take away the non-organic parts of Cable's body, defeating him.

Your Defense's Counter

Two of your characters are susceptible to telepathy, two of your characters can deal with telepathy but can be taken out through other means, Donna's will is nothing compared to what Cable has dealt. Banner doesn't need to process that fast, it takes him no time to set a dome the size of Manhattan when people can't even see him, plus, he doesn't need to evade attacks because his shields are horrendously powerful, which you keep neglecting and underrating and as i mentioned previously, Banner can pull him out of intangibility.

Your Offense's Counter

You've failed to prove Donna is as fast as you're claiming and this argument has been extensively addressed in this match, you've focused your entire strategy on Donna blitzing Cable when in reality she can't, she can't even tackle him without literally bleeding his brain out of her ears. Likewise, your strategy was full of bad choices and the consistent attempts of changing your strategy without proper justification isn't going to cut it here. Firestorm isn't soloing, he'll be overwhelmed through massive amounts of technology, a being that is too durable to put down and someone who can literally deflect his "BFR beams" and any other beams back at him with telekinesis (i'm still waiting for explanation about your scans). The last part is rather funny, Cable is going to warp reality if you take out the Virus and contrary to Nate Grey, his body and mental dexterity is actually prepared to harness a power equal to the Phoenix Force, good luck with that.

Proceeding with my Strategy

Donna

Given the fact you've failed to prove Donna is fast enough to blitz Cable in the very unlikely way you're suggesting, Cable brings her down with a simple telepathic bolt to the brain and telekinesis on her ears or blood vein pressure, 2 strategies he has used on-panel, with incredible ease and bloodlusted, as he's here.

Blue Beetle

Blue Beetle is the weakest player on your team and the fact he relies on a completely technological artifact to do pretty much everything he does, on top of that being a immature teenager which relies on the Scarab's logical thinking to deal with most of his foes, means Banner will take advantage of that and perform his part of the strategy flawlessly. He will start invisible which means Firestorm shouldn't be able to notice him that fast (that of course if he actually sees invisible beings), Donna won't be able to see him and Blue Beetle won't have time to notice him, he's going to activate his Gamma Dome in the very first seconds of the fight and neutralize Blue Beetle completely.

Firestorm

This is the hardest part and honestly, he's a very powerful foe and very hard to deal with, however, the combination of my team is enough to bring him down. As previously stated, once Donna and Blue Beetle are down, which will be rather fast given the speed at which each of the tactics take place and manifest themselves, Firestorm will be by his own and considering he'll be fighting Hulk at this time, that leaves Banner plenty of time to jump on the fight the right time. The sole and only reason Firestorm isn't beaten easily is because of his intangibility, which Banner can counter with his anti-intangibility stun gun which at the same time can launch and neural-stunner to incapacitate Firestorm the moment he comes tangible, as shown during Hulk #21 and it was strong and efficient enough to completely paralyze Loeb's Red Hulk.

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At the same time, Hulk will be punching him and smashing him... This is a situation Firestorm can't survive and he'll be knocked out and greatly damaged in no time. I think the strategy is pretty solid and the fact you're extrapolating over Firestorm's abilities to justify actions means you don't really have a concrete counter to justify Firestorm getting away of this.

Best of luck mate, you're going to need it.

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TheNewBlueBeetle007

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@ghostravage: I think I have time to make a final post to this now that school's over. Would you be alright with me doing that, and then opening votes?

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gimmie a tag when you go to voting.

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@ghostravage: I think I have time to make a final post to this now that school's over. Would you be alright with me doing that, and then opening votes?

my bad, you'd still have one more post after that if you want.

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Round 4: This is the End

Alright mate, let's keep this going and put an end to it. I really enjoyed it and this is by far the most versatile debate i've ever managed to argue at. Either way, since the tournament itself pretty much disappeared, i'm going to pull all my cards here, although staying within the limitations. Best of lucks mate.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said; this was incredibly versatile and fun; best of luck in voting.

This will be a gigantic post. Really huge. Here's a table of contents for convenience.

Table of Contents:

  1. Final Rebuttals
  2. Win Conditions
  3. Firestorm's Trump Card
  4. Summary of Arguments // Feat Shown
  5. Recap of Strategy
  6. Overall Summary
  7. Thank You

1. Final Rebuttals

Donna Troy vs Cable

Friction occurs in anything that has a medium, it occurs in essentially anything that isn't the vacuum and it should apply in all scenarios that involve a medium. My argument is that Donna won't be able to move that fast becayse friction won't let her, the friction i'm talking about is the same friction that stops Superman from reaching light speed on Earth and that makes Superman struggle to catch Flash as shown in Superman #709 when a mind controlled Flash was running around being destructive...

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As you can see, tears are falling down Superman's eyes because of the air presenting resistance to the movement, saliva, his face's cheeks are all pulled back because of it, his hair and all that jada jada is proof enough Superman has a limit and is significantly far from being actual light speed, which he can reach in the vacuum of space, likewise, you can see Flash being completely unbothered by the speed he's moving at and lacking everything Superman showed in the instance, this is rather explainable given the nature of Flash's powers and the connection the flashes have with the Speed Force, which grants them a friction-less aura for them to ignore what other people can't and go at light speed or several times the speed of light at any given moment as shown in JSA #24 when Jay Garrick was stripped off his friction-less aura and for that reason he lit himself in fire and was exhausted.

Oh, that's interesting. There are a ton of problems with this, though.

First, there's nothing in the first scan saying that it was friction that was hurting Superman. It very well could have been the fact that Flash is much faster than him and the sweat is going across his face. Flash is obviously a being MFTL, and while Superman is too, it makes sense that Superman would get tired as he was exerting himself too much to catch up to someone he physically could not. Everyone sweats when they do physical activity, and while Superman obviously has superhuman stamina, pushing himself that hard would naturally result in sweat.

If friction was really hurting Superman as much as you say it was, then why is Superman so close to Flash? It doesn't make sense that such a thing would occur, especially when there's no textual evidence that it did.

The second issue with this contention is that there's a clear difference between friction in air and friction on the ground. Any physicist (or any person with common sense, really) will tell you that it's much easier for objects to travel through the air than on the ground, meaning that the Jay Garrick feat doesn't really apply here.

Third, I have a matter manipulator on my side. Firestorm could easily manipulate the air particles to allow Donna to blitz if such a thing is necessary. This is feasible (and not a change in plan as you would likely accuse me of) because Firestorm has a Nobel laureate physicist inside his head and perfect teamwork with Donna thanks to the perk. It makes sense that he'd know what Donna would do and try to aid her in that. Considering that he's able to transmute multiple objects at once, he will be able to do this as well as aid Blue Beetle and attack the Hulk.

But fourth and most importantly, Donna has the durability necessarily to resist being caught on fire or whatever. I mean, she tanked Monarch's quantum blast:

Countdown #13

A blast that even hurt Superman Prime. Friction doesn't matter here.

Cheetah despises Wonder Woman and wants her dead. Thus, she was likely going all out, which is much more than the speed of light, especially when we consider that Cheetah at her best has been faster than Superman.

I can understand that, but that doesn't take out the fact Cheetah likes to play with her "victims" and make them suffer the more she hates them. I don't see any valid indicator to support your stance, much less when character development is being overlooked.

Cheetah does like to play with her victims, but it's ridiculous to think that she'd hold back on Wonder Woman unless she clearly knew she had the advantage. Sadistic as she may be, she certainly isn't stupid, and there's just no scenario where Cheetah holds back on someone who has beaten her before and someone who she hates.

Black Flash is many times faster than light and even the upper tier Flashes have found outrunning him exceedingly difficult.

I think i asked for proof about this, i need to see this myself because Wally needed to outrun time and the actual comic in question to outrun Black Flash and there isn't a single being faster than the Flashes or anyone Flash themed in general like Zoom, specially Donna Troy whose most feats are being attributed through comparisons with Wonder Woman.

Honestly? I don't even know where this point was going for either of us. Black Flash afaik doesn't exist in the New 52, and that's the WW that Donna fought against.

Regardless of what you think, Wonder Woman unfailingly keeps up with supraluminal beings and tags beings who make Cable look sluggish.

Too bad Donna Troy is not Wonder Woman and the fact Wonder Woman can react to things faster than light doesn't mean she would overpower someone who has near light speed reflexes himself that easily, even less so how you're implying.

Except Donna kept up with an amped Wonder Woman, for multiple pages too.

I don't need a "speed indicator" in the context you're thinking of. You're essentially asking me to show a statement that says "X opponent was moving at Y speed," but if I can simply show that Donna has blitzed opponents who have reaction speed equal to or greater than Cable, then I win the argument regardless of whether there was any indicator of what speed Donna was moving at.

You need at the very least an indicator to prove your point, you're just stretching the validity of your argument through assumptions. I'm not asking for a statement per se, it could be an environmental justification that they were moving that fast for example, something to make your point any trustworthy. In fact, feel free to post those feats, it should be interesting to see them.

I wouldn't say I really need an indicator.

Let's say Flash is ready for an attack, and some random character X still manages to blitz him. Would we necessarily need a text box that explicitly states that X is MFTL? No, we just use logic and find that because Flash has MFTL reaction times, and X was able to bypass those reaction times, X is MFTL. Easy.

Donna blitzed morals off, not holding back John Stewart. John Stewart is many times faster than light in reaction times. Because Donna was able to bypass that, she's definitely fast enough to blitz Cable.

So you're telling me that getting hit with a few tons of metal didn't harm Lightmaster? Lightmaster isn't durable enough at all for that to be true.

The problem here and what i essentially meant was that he wasn't "hit" to begin with, he was simply trapped within those metal scraps and teleported to the moon. I think it's pretty obvious considering he wasn't even bothered nor presented any discomfort when he was getting trapped by Cable, he was even talking normally and then was teleported.

Regardless, he's was a being made out of pure light, physical damage wasn't a way to beat him and the only reason he was using the suit was to keep him stable, likewise, his handbook entry fromDeadpool Corps: Rank and Foul pretty much states he's incredibly durable, not to mention he has taken on the likes of She-Hulk and whatnot, simple metal scraps shouldn't be a problem for him.

This argument is just flat-out wrong.

These are the two pages after the one where Cable wraps Lansky up. Let's look at the facts.

  • Fact:Lightmaster was stated to have been able to arrive from the moon back to where Cable was in 1.3 seconds. I checked Google, and it told me the same.
  • Fact:It took Lightmaster much longer than that, as the priest with the blue skin is able to have an entire conversation with Cable. Even if you say the words that Cable and the priest said as fast as possible, it would still take more than 1.3 seconds.

This part isn't an argument. It's literally just stating what happened.

It's infeasible for the two to have a conversation in 1.3 seconds. Lightmaster was held up by the debris, and frankly, there's nothing you can do to refute that.

Thus, it's more likely than not that Cable put his shield up while Lansky was still being affected by the debris, meaning that he doesn't have FTL reaction times or anywhere close.

So, what you're trying to say is that Cable just floated there and let Lansky repeatedly into him, even though he was visibly hurt by every strike? Cable's no masochist, he wouldn't simply allow himself to be hit. If he could have reacted, he would have in order to preclude getting hurt.

He did react, but he simply talked and was blathering nonsense just like Deadpool does. Cable is not a masochist but Deadpool is. What i'm stating is perfectly clear, Cable wasn't operating like himself the first moments he was dealing with Lightmaster, afterwards he pretty much stomped him.

Why not?You keep making these claims, without any warrants as to why they're actually true. Why would Cable ever allow himself to get over and over, especially when you say that it's so easy for him to defeat Lightmaster? He could have easily had a talk with Lightmaster, except used his TK to hold him in place instead of just getting smacked.

Cable doesn't have lightspeed reaction feats, and you've hinged this entire point on one example (that could be an outlier), and it's an extremely questionable one at that.

Cable was ready for Lansky with his shields.

How do we know that Cable didn't put his shields up while Lightmaster was still getting out of the debris? There's really no way to definitively prove that he put the shields up after Lansky had started his blitz.

We know by looking at the previous scan to Lightmaster arriving, we can see Cable flat out stating Lightmaster is even arriving earlier when he's so close to him that he is completely visible the same way Cable's shields are completely invisible, something the artist of the issue made pretty clear when Cable was using them.

No Caption Provided

All in all, yes, theres is proof to support the idea of Cable using his shields when Lightmaster was almost colliding with him and it is so blatantly visible it would be unpractical to argue otherwise.

No, it isn't anywhere close to blatantly visible or unpractical for me to argue otherwise.

More facts:

  • Fact:Lightmaster had previously blitzed Cable (who even saw him coming), and Cable was unable to react. (here)
  • Fact:Cable's shields are invisible, and there's no way of determining for certain whether or not he had them up before or after Lightmaster attacked.

That Lightmaster was previously able to blitz Cable with literally no reaction shows, immutably, that Cable can't react to him.

To the contrary, in the panels preceding Cable's telekinetic control of Lansky, he was actually shown to be completely still.

I'm going to ahead and call this a vague analysis mate,

Call it whatever you want, the fact remains that Lightmaster wasn't moving.

Lansky collided with Cable's shields and then he started shooting light beams through his hands to break them, hell, the fact Lansky was right next to Cable when Cable decided to control him and make him clash with the building is also proof he clashed with Cable first prior to shoot the beams.

Nothing you said in this passage actually disagreed with what I said.

But for clarification, allow me to observe the panels:

No Caption Provided

This right here is Lansky blitzing Cable, right before he collides into the shields. We both agree that at this point, he's moving at his normal top speeds, as the yellow aura around him signifies that at this time, he is made of light.

No Caption Provided

Here, Lansky isn't moving. This is the panel immediately preceding Cable's TK-ragdolling, and the fact that there was no yellow aura blatantly displays that Lightmaster wasn't moving and certainly not at the speed of light.

Observe that in the first panel, Lightmaster is surrounded by a yellow aura. I agree with you that Lansky was moving at lightspeed during that panel, but that's insignificant because Cable already had his shields up.

It is not insignificant because Lightmaster was already on Earth by the time Cable decided to put his shields up, which makes the feat a light speed reaction feat.

There is literally no proof of this anywhere. Cable's shields are invisible. Give me an indication, a motion that Cable made after Lansky landed to show that the shields were made after, give me the writer's comments, give me a text box that explicitly states that Cable's shields went up after the attack, and I'll concede the point.

Problem is, none of that exists.

The fact Lightmaster was flying at such speed and the next panel shows a pretty big clash between light and Cable's shields means he first tried to bullrush towards him like he previously did twice prior to the scan, then he assaulted Cable with light beams.

The second thing you referred to was his telekinetic control of Lightmaster, which occurs on the very next page. If you look at Lightmaster on the third to last panel on this page, he does not have the yellow aura,signifying that Lightmaster was not moving at lightspeeds when Cable TK-controlled him.

I'm sorry, i'm failing to understand what you're saying here. The panel in which Lightmaster is being telekinetically controlled by Cable is the panel that matters, not the previous one. In fact, in the panel that he's been controlled he was glowing like a light bulb and a path of light was pictured while Lansky was getting controlled... As far as i know that could be considered a light aura and even if you disagree with Lanky being moving at light speed, he was certainly moving incredibly fast given a being made out of pure light that only glows when moving at light speed was glowing at that moment.

No, I'd say the previous one matters a great deal. Lightmaster is a beam of light, correct? So let's say that beam of light is frozen in place and unmoving, just using all of its energy in trying to break through Cable's shields. Then, it doesn't matter if Cable's controlling that beam of light, because it isn't moving!Of course the yellow streaks would exist after Cable started ragdolling him, because it's the movement of light and the movement of light emits a glow, but that doesn't at all defeat my point considering that when Cable started to ragdoll Lansky, the latter was not moving.

At this point I've done a panel-by-panel analysis on what happened mate, there's no point for you in arguing this further.

This is really the only significant speed feat that Cable has, and it's not even valid. Donna, on the other hand, has multitudinous speed feats to draw from that would put her above this even if it were well founded. I'll get to those in a bit.

This is one of the few feats that would put Cable on the reactions i'm arguing for here, but this is the only feat necessary considering you're arguing for a highly improbable light speed blitz on Donna's side, which not only lacks proof to be supported but the fact is also highly unlikely to happen before Donna falls through Cable's telepathic assault. Donna might have more feats, but the quality of them put the nowhere near light speed as far as combat goes.

The quality of Cable's feats leave much to be desired; meanwhile, Donna has consistently displayed an ability to keep up with Green Lanterns, Wonder Woman, and Superwoman; all FTL beings.

In the instances of Cable "reacting" to Lightmaster,

Cable already had his shields up, and might have put them up before Lansky had even broken out of the debris or

Lightmaster wasn't moving.

Cable does not have lightspeed reaction times.

  • Cable put his shields up when Lightmaster was already on Earth while traveling at the speed of light.
  • Light master clashed with Cable and then beamed him, so he moved even though he then stopped to change tactics.
  • He does.
  • There's no proof of that, my friend.
  • Yes, exactly! Lightmaster stopped,and thenCable started TK-controlling him! That's not tagging a being that's MFTL, that is tagging a being that isn't moving. The material that the being is made up of is irrelevant if he's not moving.
  • I've done breakdowns of all the pages of, following, and after the event. He does not.

Cable's will is strong enough to fight the Silver Surfer and Galactus? Cool, Donna has the will to fight against mother freaking Eclipso and Starheart Alan Scott.

You need to be less equivocal about your Galactus statement. Are you trying to say that Cable has willpower equivalent to Galactus? If so, I'll need feats for Galactus's willpower. Will is one of the few characteristics that beings with extremely high levels of power do not automatically possess, so I'll need some feats to back that up.

Starheart Alan Scott? I'll need proof of that because even though he's a being mad eout of the Starheart, Starheart Alan Scott is by far one of the most powerful beings in DC and fail to see how a very watered down Wonder Woman would stand the slightest of chances against him, Either way, Alan isn't known for having a consistent level of will, he suffers from mental disorders that dampen his potential most of the time, he even bleeds because he thinks he needs to bleed when punched and his will keeps waving almost all the time.

I flat out stated Silver Surfer compared Cable to Galactus as far as his passion and will goes, i don't have that many feats that directly address Galactus's will but the fact he managed to keep Odin at bay in a telepathic battle while starving, ultimately affecting Odin's own memories with intrusive thoughts and breaking his will to the point of make him claim "we are all hungry" and beating him afterwards duringThe Mighty Thor #4 is a proof of will in my book, specially since Odin can wipe minds with simple hand gestures world-wide and effortlessly and even took out his own left eye and hanged himself from a tree and died for his people.

I'm sorry, but Galactus beating Odin is not willpower, it's telepathy. Galactus is a telepath, Odin is a telepath, Galactus is a more powerful telepath, Galactus defeated Odin. That's all there is to it and unless you specifically show me statements addressing his willand not his telepathy, something from the text boxes that explicitly say willpower, then there's no way Cable is beating Donna in willpower.

Anyways, i think this feat should be enough, we're talking about an Asgardian Sky-Father known to defy deities way out of his league consistently and known for experimenting the harshest of trials to become who he is. For the sake of the argument i must let you know that Cable not only overpowered Hulk's will and multi-personality disorder but he also overpowered Onslaught's will over Hulk while weakened, which was the combined will of Magneto, Xavier and Franklin Richards altogether duringIncredible Hulk #444.

Mate, none of these are feats of willpower. They're just statements of how powerful Cable's TP is. I don't see the word "Will" in any of those scans.

Although there was no direct indication of speed, Wonder Woman was fighting to liberate her sisters from Donna's noxious propaganda and influence, so it's safe to say she wasn't playing around, although she was trying to also teach Donna that her ways were wrong.

Nonetheless, Donna did score some quality hits on Wonder Woman, and that's a massive feat by itself. To put it into perspective, here are a few of Wonder Woman's feats in the New 52...

New-52 Wonder Woman is also a greatly inferior to her Pre-52 predecessor and she has done nothing to put her on the same level as Pre-Flashpoint Wonder Woman. The fight is impressive, but i fail to see how does that make Donna any more impressive than the way you were arguing for her here. Not only i see the feat way below light speed itself, but the fact you showed a different version as well. I can understand where you're coming from, but that fight has nothing against my feat. I've read most of New-52 material of all the Justice League characters, so let's address these feats.

  • Keeps up with Supergirl, don't know why it is a light speed feat considering she also kept up with Flash and he was holding back and not fighting at the speed of light.
  • Wonder Woman wasn't taking on both Superman and Green Lantern, hell, the only reason she punched Green Lantern in the first place was because he had her encased in a construct with him inside and he was simply talking to her and she sucker punched her... Not only she had his hands full with Green Lantern alone, but the fact she kicked Superman once mainly because he was trying to stop her without recurring to violence.
  • The Omega Beam is fine and dandy, still, i don't think it's a light speed feat, much less considering Wonder Woman could very easily have his bracelets up before Darkseid shot the beams, even more so when she was already aware of how they worked and knew that was his go to tactic. Regardless, in the same issue she failed to react properly to Darkseid's punch which i honestly can't sell as light speed, not even hypersonic if i'm allowed to say so myself.
  1. It's lightspeed because Supergirl is lightspeed and she kept up with Supergirl.
  2. That doesn't really matter. GL had sufficient time to react to the punch (his eyes were on her the whole time and he knew she might attack), so the fact that she was able to blitz him speaks volumes.
  3. Pre 52 Darkseid is canon to N52 Darkseid, and that version managed to tag FTL beings on Apokolips or other planets all the time (for example, Superman). Saying the OB isn't FTL is ridiculous. Furthermore, there's no indication that WW had her bracelets up, and warriors (especially those as intrepid as Diana) don't enter a fight with their bracelets up. Darkseid has punched beings that are FTL, so....

This same lady that easily reacted to a Green Lantern, blitzed a Kryptonian, and reacted to the Omega Beams? Donna foughtevenly with her until she used her Lasso. Oh, and when Donna fought WW, she was the God of War, while in these instances, she wasn't.

That's right, Donna scored hits on an amped version of a girl that reacted to Green Lanterns and blitzed a Kryptonian. Those are beings that are many times faster than light, but Donna did better against Diana than any of them as far as speed goes.

She reacted to a Green Lantern, which was moving so fast normal people was still able to see them fighting. She didn't blitz either Green Lantern nor Superman, she sucker punched both of them

They were in conflict and were both expecting it. I've gone over this, and if Hal's literally looking at WW as she's clearly in the mood to throw a punch and STILL couldn't react, it's definitely a blitz scenario.

and the Omega Beams instance is highly questionable and hardly sufficient to prove light speed reactions. I don't know if being the God of War amps her speed, i mean, her speed comes from Hermes to begin with, an entirely different god.

Ares as God of War was faster than any regular mortal, and it's well known that God of War amps her physically.

n this story arc, the Titans were battling the Seven Deadly Sins, sons of Trigon. One of the Sins was "Lust," a man with the power to make anyone fall so deeply in love with him that they would fight their closest friends for his love. Wally West and Donna fell under Lust's influence, and fought each other.

I think we have different interpretations here mate. Even though i can agree with you Wally should dispatch her quite easily under those terms, he didn't fight that fast because he was right next to her and in order to punch beings on Superman's durability or something he needs to speed himself up to a quite decent degree to gain mass.

You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here mate, Wally processes things in an attosecond, he's millions of times faster than light and if Donna was indeed less than the speed of light as you claim then it's totally silly that she'd be able to get out his way for even a moment. It doesn't matter that he was speeding up for a punch, Wally's had feats where FTL beings look like they're at a standstill compared to he is, and if she was that slow then he certainly had time to charge up for a punch.

Either way, the main problem lies in Donna "evading" him. She didn't do such thing, she flew away in an attempt of grounding him while diving and she missed. If anything, the only thing that instance does is prove Donna isn't anywhere near as fast as a Flash, which is contradictory to your argument with Jesse Quick, or is it? It actually supports my idea Jesse was not moving that fast.

I mean,

  1. Even if she flew away, that's still momentarily escaping his onslaught and still a valid feat
  2. Jesse's nowhere near as fast as Wally, so....

This is probably Donna's best speed feat.

Here, she manages to blitz a Green Lantern, John Stewart while he was possessed by Jericho.

I'm just going to restrain myself from quoting all of that. I know John Stewart, i know how powerful he is and i'm well aware of his potential, however, i fail to see how this instance helps Donna's case here. John Stewart wasn't paying attention to her to begin with, he was focused on launching green missiles to the city when she tackled him from outside his line of sight. After that he even focuses on the Teen Titans while she tries to restrain him... I don't subscribe to your notion here and i wouldn't consider the instance to be any helpful to your case, much less Donna's best speed feat, because it isn't one in the first place.

Reread the scan brother; he'd already fired the missiles at the town. That said, Donna flew at an angle where John's peripheral vision surely should have been able to pick her up and react, but that obviously wasn't the case. I mean, she flew at his upper chest from his front, anybody fast enough should be able to react to that.

I agree with you on this; however, I wasn't trying to say that this is Cable's maximum speed but that the feat merely isn't impressive in the debate pertaining to speed, and that point still stands.

I still think it's impressive even though it's not the fastest he has reacted.

1/18 the speed of light is not impressive here.

Donna has still blitzed a Green Lantern as well as a Superboy clone, each of whom should be above Cable's top speed which is at this point lightspeed.

In that case we wouldn't need any indication of how fast G.L. or Donna was moving because Stewart has explicitly shown FTL reaction times and Donna was blatantly able to surpass that.

I think you're running out of feats to showcase Donna as a light speedster. Superboy isn't light speed if Superman isn't.

Superman is far above lightspeed, dude. Any Superman expert (aside from you, apparently) will testify to that.

John Stewart, while i can agree with you he has high reactions same as Superman, he didn't show the against Donna mainly because he wasn't dealing with her at any moment to the point of being completely oblivious the location she came from to tackle him.

Let's put it this way, if someone came at your upper chest well within your peripheral vision, you should be able to react in time unless you simply aren't slow enough; furthermore, given that he was trying to get away he easily could have just flown away from in the next page if he was that much faster but given that she occupied him for a while he clearly isn't.

I still need to see these tons of feats that surpass Cable's.

You've seen them.

You keep talking about "objective speed". If Donna was able to blitz someone who has FTL reaction speeds, then that's the speed she moves at, especially when given that she's evaded other beings of a similar caliber and has shown to be comparable to speed force users such as that alternate Flash and Jesse Quick.

It's not objective speed, it's objectiveness when addressing a speed feat. You're calling Donna a light speedster because she fought someone, that at some point in his publication, in a completely unrelated instance to the one in question, showed to react at light speed or more. Look, Donna can react that fast, i have no problem with it, but i fail to see how is she moving that fast, people like Superman and other speedsters have failed to move that fast on Earth because of friction, fighting Flashes is a reaction feat, not exactly moving as fast as them and Jesse Quick wasn't moving at light speed mainly because she didn't access the Speed Force, which Diana was about to do when trying to catch up with her.

Superman failed to catch up with Flash, that isn't equivalent to him being unable to move FTL. Besides mate, the speed that you've shown for Cable is dubious at best and even if valid (which it's not) it's clearly an outlier as you've shown no other instances of him moving remotely that fast.

She didn't evade no one, you grossly misinterpreted the scan as far as i know, i still need to see the Alternate Flash thing, i guess you're referring to Black Flash right?

No, I went back and looked at the scan, and she blitzed a being who had recently reacted to the Flash:

Yet another instance showing Donna's vast speed. That's, what, four instances I've shown?

  • Evading Wally West
  • Keeping up with Wonder Woman
  • Blitzing John Stewart
  • Blitzing the Superboy clone

Meanwhile, the only feat you've shown at all in this range is the very questionable Lightmaster feat.

Also, just because you think Diana's top speed is lightspeed doesn't make it factual. She has kept up with opponents who are FTL and blood-lusted, so she is faster than light herself.

Cable's top reaction speed is lightspeed (and honestly even that's questionable given that Lightmaster wasn't moving when Cable TK-controlled him). Donna exceeds that.

Is not what i think, that's actually the highest speed she has shown on combat on Earth against another foe. She has kept with people that can move FTL while traveling. She might have reactions faster than light and can move her limbs accordingly but she can't move faster than that.

So she can move her limbs FTL but isn't actually FTL? How does that make any sense?

But here's another way for her to outspeed Cable:

Reaction is jerk motions, correct? Very quick movements of the limbs?

Well, Donna could easily just use that jerk movement to quickly wrap her lasso around Cable. She doesn't have to fly around him or anything, just use the lasso's range to ensnare Cable very quickly before he has time to react.

You need to elaborate on the Galactus statement. Did someone simply say that he had willpower comparable to Galactus, or was there a way that they actually measured it?

I already did. Silver Surfer compared Cable's passion to Galactus and that such passion turns into hunger, just as Galactus's. There's no way to measure something like Will rather than showcase how powerful it is and Cable overpowered Onslaught and overpowered Hulk, he also was so focused on his target he didn't care to BFR one of his best friends so far in the future he would die, namely Bishop, he has also gone against his best friends more than once just to follow his believes.

Donna's willpower has:

  1. Enabled her to use a weapon that relies on willpower and her bending others to her will.
  2. Allowed her to use sheer willpower to force a telepath to do what she wants - and resist TP through pure willpower.
  3. Keep fighting Eclipso even when there was little to no hope left.

That's cool, don't know how that makes her superior to Cable.

Because with that Lasso she has ensnared beings like Etrigan, who have also fought some of the most powerful magical beings that exist in the DC Universe. She bends others to her will on a daily basis, beings who themselves have willpower to fight skyfathers or insanely powerful people; this puts her willpower above Cable's.

The telepath is nigh-featless and doesn't have the slighest chance to be on Cable's tier. I mean, he is powerful enough to keep away Xavier and Jean Grey together, Emma Frost needed to use Cerebro to keep him away and she was struggling while doing it, he was having a telepathic fight so powerful and absurdly out of control with Nate Grey the Astral Plane was going to be merged with the physical plane and by Blacksmith's own admission was bordering in reality warp, overpowered Hulk twice, overpowered Onslaught while weakened and had the entirety of the Earth ionized with his telepathic waves. Donna has done nothing compared to this to suggest she can keep Cable out of her mind, she would be mind raped and telekinetically dispatched by putting pressure capable of overpowering Hulk himself on a simple blood vessel, turning her into a useless child mind-wise.

The feat wasn't about her TP resistance; it was about her willpower. The fact remains that the telepath was a capable one that TP'd Jade who has Starheart powers that grant her resistance, and yet Donna was able to have enough willpower to resist him.

You made a claim that Cable would have enough willpower to resist Donna's magic (not telepathic) Lasso of Persuasion. I asked for willpower feats, and you gave me one statement. Donna wins the willpower department.

That's fine, too bad that's something inexplicably similar to what Captain America has done when fighting Galactus, Celestials, leading an intergalactic war against The Builders, against Ex-Nihilo and Abyss when he's the last Avengers standing, Thanos and others and that didn't keep a weakened Cable out of his mind as proven in Cable & X-Force #10 when he telepathically assaulted the entirety of the Uncanny Avengers roster including Thor who happens to have a very similar description to Steve and Donna's will (which admittedly was off-panel).

Mate, the point wasn't about TP resistance at all. It was about Cable resisting the Lasso.

Blue Beetle vs Banner

Quite the contrary; I also said that Firestorm could potentially take a few rounds of this by himself, without any support from Donna.

You're grossly overrating Firestorm, without his teammates he'll be overpowered quite easily.

Nope. More on that later.

Here's the problem with that statement: Banner is far too slow to defend himself. Blue Beetle can both hack his tech and, if that doesn't work, fry his nerves incapacitating him. If Cable can't react to Donna, then Banner's KO'd. If Cable can react to Donna, then Banner gets all his technology transmuted by Firestorm. There's really no scenario in which Banner is a factor at all.

I think you're ignoring what is shown in your citations. Blue Beetle didn't hack anything without literally plugging the Scarab into the space ship main computer. You're arguing for him as if he has some kind of technopathy by proximity, which Banner actually has and it takes literally just a second for him to put it to work. Moreover, i was planning to showcase this part of Banner's gear in the next round given i wanted to have some cards under my sleeve but as i previously told you, there's no point in that. Banner starts invisible in this match considering he'll be wearing his "mirror" coat that reflects light and makes him essentially invisible as proven in Indestructible Hulk #17 when he passed in front of an entire army of S.H.I.E.L.D agents unnoticed.

Mate, you're not starting invisible. Banner at base is a regular human being with no shields or invisibility up, and you don't have any prep time to start invisible.

Just because he canturn invisible doesn't mean that's the default and it surely doesn't mean that you're able to just say that it will happen when Jaime's clearly fast enough to KO Banner before he can process what happened.

While i know Blue Beetle has scanners that can detect camouflaged beings, it takes time for said scanners to adjust to Jaime's human vision, therefore, granting Banner enough time to shut the scarab down as originally planned. That said, i'm fairly skeptical about his scanners detecting Banner, the fact mirrors tend to trick sensors because it reflects the same waves they release to detect things makes me think Jaime won't be able to find him. Furthermore, i think you're starting to overuse Firestorm, initially you stated he'll be dealing with Hulk, why would he go for Banner now?

Firestorm can deal with both of them at once. If Jaime's having issues, Firestorm will help. Perfect teamwork, remember?

The way you're picturing Firestorm multitasking, changing targets and changing decisions just because without any repercussion on the battlefield is very unlikely, like, not possible at all to be honest. Firestorm shouldn't be able to notice Banner off the bat either and while i can agree with Firestorm's ability to transmute Banner's gear, i don't agree with your strategy being able to accomplish that.

It will literally take an instant for FS to transmute Banner's gear. In the meantime, he could go intangible to stop Hulk from hitting him.

Still, there wasn't anything to suggest that that had any effect on hacking the mothership. The scarab has hacked other things in the past without being plugged in, such as other scarabs in Blue Beetle #13...

The instance is especially compelling when considering that each scarab is a technopath on its own. So, Beetle was able to out-hack multiple technopaths. I believe this not only shows that the scarab being plugged in had little to no effect on the hacking abilities, but it's also another feat that shows Beetle's superiority in this department.

But honestly, none of this even matters that much because Banner would never get the chance to do such a thing. Both Beetle's blasts and, more importantly, Firestorm's transmutation, are instantaneous and could disable Banner from the match entirely.

Jaime nor the Scarab hacked anything in that issue, specially since it is blatantly stated that Jaime is just overriding his own scarab programming with his "choices". That's all that happened there, there was no hacking involved, just Jaime taking over the Scarab and overpowering his most basic programming, which is completely understandable considering Jaime is fused with the Scarab to begin with.

Jaime did override his own scarab's programming with his own choices, but he definitively hacked theotherscarabs and ensured that they let go of their hosts.

I think you're trying to argue something you won't be able to prove. The Scarab has its ways to hack, but they work in a completely different way than how you're trying to sell them here. My argument stands, the scarab is shut down via a powerful virus not even people with pico-second information processing, master hackers (including aliens) and people capable of challenging cosmic entities and be completely immune to wakandian EMPs can resist.

Your go to strategy is fan fiction, it's way too unlikely to happen.

Lol, isn't the entire battle fanfiction, mate?

It's going to happen.

Not at all. Banner is going to be the one who goes down incredibly fast, because each of my team members can one-shot him, and once again you've hinged your entire strategy on Cable's questionable lightspeed reaction feat being enough to combat Donna's faster-than-light feats against John Stewart, alternate reality Flashes etc.

So now you're saying either of your characters is going for Banner for no particular reason? I thought Firestorm was going for Hulk, Donna for Cable and Blue Beetle for Banner. Donna can't see Banner to begin with, Firestorm would be too busy trying to harm someone he can't really put down and Cable would manhandle Donna into a carrot... Blue Beetle on the other hand would be nullified completely through Banner's hacking with a Dome the size of Manhattan that affects all Non-BannerTech electronics... Jaime is useless here, should have had Firestorm go for Cable given how versatile he is, Donna for Banner given she uses nothing but physicals and Jaime for Hulk given he can keep his distance and survive while your other teammates handle mine...HOWEVER, that strategy is not yours to call and the fact you already decided how your team would play here, means there's no turning back and i'm strongly against "changing" strategy without proper justification through character development in the middle of the fight.

Don't worry, I'm not radically restructuring my strategy- just making small modifications that are legal because as I gain knowledge about your characters, my characters, due to the basic knowledge perk, do as well and will act a bit differently.

Firestorm vs Hulk

Come on now, you really believe that Hulk is just going to walk through all of Firestorm's attacks? Even if Hulk is more durable than Black Adam, it's not by much especially given that Black Adam has tanked hits from virtually the entire JSA. In addition, Firestorm defeated Teth in a single blast; if he hits Hulk withmultipleblasts like this, Hulk should go down.

I really do believe Hulk is too durable for Firestorm to bring him down. Black Adam has been harmed by Mr. T, Hourman, a simple heat vision from Martian Manhunter and even Wildcat, if you're going to use Black Reign story arc, i think you'll need to mention a bunch of street levelers and Hourman harming him easily. Black Adam lacks Hulk's healing factor (which works instantly) and his powerset is perfectly attuned to work with time.

Hourman and Street levelers did not harm Black Adam anywhere close to the extent that Firestorm did- a blatant one-shot knockout. Black Adam wasn't even knocked out at all against those characters.

You are.

I said that Firestorm could solo without Donna's help.

You, on the other hand, cannot counter Jaime's neural blasts or Firestorm's BFR without Cable.

Ok... I think i've debated for every single one of my characters playing a big role here, using their gear to the fullest and handling their adversaries how they would in-character. I don't think i've been that reliant on Cable given 1 of your teammates is already completely immune to 2 of his most powerful and basic forms of attack. The fact you have that feeling is because it is you who are focusing everything on Donna blitzing Cable, if you tried a different strategy it wouldn't seem that way... Just sayin'

I mean, not really. I said Firestorm could solo even if Donna can't blitz.

How exactly is Firestorm soloing? By performing in a way he sure as hell wouldn't be able to? By being intangible all the time, blasting everyone with Black Adam ordinance beams, transmuting inorganic matter and blitzing at the same time? Don't you think that's actually incredibly far fetched? C'mon now.

He's not blitzing. But he absolutely can hit everyone at the same time, especially because nobody can touch him.

I will elaborate on FS's role later.

Jaime won't be able to use it and you never proved Firestorm can BFR people and the instance you chose to showcase this ability was done when he was using a Mother Box, hence the reason why it sounded like "BOOM" everytime he opened the portal.

The Mother Box part is fair, I misread that scan.

However, there are two more ways FS can BFR Hulk. We've established with the Mother Box scan that it is in character for him to do so when he gets tired of the opponent, so:

Ignore the first two scans (copy pasted from one of my other threads), but the third and fourth are showing Firestorm's use of Zeta Radiation, aka the tech used in Zeta beams that can send Hulk light years away with no hope of returning.

The second method of BFR is BFR to the Firestorm Matrix.

No Caption Provided

In the Matrix, Firestorm is literally unstoppable- nobody can contend with him as it's his own dimension and he has total control.

Here, he traps a man in the Matrix and mind rapes him. That's a taste of what he can do to Hulk if BFR happens.

This instance also confirms that it is in character for FS to do so, because he did it here.

Banner's shields are irrelevant as he will never have the time to get them up. Blue Beetle is a character who moves far faster than human thought; he could incapacitate Banner before Banner even knows what happened, even if hacking doesn't work.

He doesn't need to get them up because they are always up...

What?? I'll need to see evidence of this.

Your attempt of Counter

Sassy, I like it!

What willpower feats have you shown that put Cable above Donna?

Donna uses a weapon that relies on willpower, and has used nothing but will to force telepaths to mind-rape themselves. She's never given up on a battle and has kept fighting no matter how much physical or emotional pain she is in. In Blackest Night she resisted the transformation into a Black Lantern longer than anyone else did.

You need to show me some willpower feats.

I've mentioned them above. Donna using a physical weapon driven by Will power means nothing when telepathy itself is completely sustained by it as well. When fighting another telepath is about telepathic prowess and flat out will to either overpower or keep one away from your mind... Essentially, telepathy is a weapon driven with will just as much as a magic Lasso. She didn't forced "telepaths", she tricked a nobody into doing it, the funniest thing here is that by showcasing her supposed "light speed combat speed" you also shown how weak her will can turn out to be, given Lust still controlled her and made her fight Flash without any problems whatsoever. I understand he might be powerful but so is Cable.

What??? Since when has TP everbeen about willpower? There are some telepaths who are simply more powerful than others, just like Hulk is stronger than Bane. For instance, Despero is more powerful than Martian Manhunter telepathically, not because he has greater will but because he's just weaker (J'onn has fought for the entire league and still lost even when Despero was on random quid pro quo missions; MMH had more at stake but still lost).

I'll need to see some solid on-panel statements saying that the only thing to telepathy is willpower, because I just can't believe that to be true.

Blah blah Cable is a really good telepath and Donna can't resist him blah blah

Sorry for not quoting that whole block of text, but I'll concede this point. Cable can telepathically defeat Donna if he gets the time.

Problem is, he won't.

It's because that Blue Beetle wasn't only able to resist her, but he completely incapacitated her when she tried to look into his mind. The degree to which he resisted her was such that she couldn't even get a glimpse of his thoughts.

Anyways, there is another way that Beetle can resist telepathy.

The other tactic is useless, he kills himself, Banner's deactivates the Scarab and Jamie dies once and for all. Bad move there.

Banner can't just deactivate the Scarab. The Scarab can hack his tech, or flat out resist technopathy, or just blitz him by itself. The scarab is an independent entity that can function by itself.

I'm not relying on her in the slightest. I've said multiple times that Firestorm can take your entire team down by himself.

Yet your whole strategy revolves on her success. Look it's irrelevant whether you think you're relying on her or not, the fact she can't blitz Cable to begin with makes her dead weight for your time.

The strategy does not rely on her success.

"Firestorm can solo, thus I don't need Donna" is pretty easy to understand brother.

Let me reiterate why Banner isn't going to be a factor in this fight at all.

This is a HIGH TIER battle. Each character here is massively hypersonic, with Donna being faster than the speed of light, Blue Beetle being around the Mach 100 range and Firestorm being somewhere in the middle.

This entire fight is going to happen before Banner even processes what is going on. In the first millisecond, the outcome of Donna's blitz will have been determined. In another millisecond, Firestorm will have either knocked out or BFR'd the Incredible Hulk.

At this point Banner still hasn't even processed a single image and hasn't even had a thought yet. Even if Blue Beetle wasn't present in the fight, he would either have all his tech transmuted or his mind taken over by Cable under Donna's influence.

Banner is a human. He's not even a peak human and is pitifully slow compared to everyone else in this battle. He's not going to get the chance to do anything.

I don't understand... What has Banner being human to do with the fact he can handle high tiers? That's an incredibly weak, flawed and lazy way to determine whether a character can deal with others or not. Banner is invisible in this fight, has the only counter for intangibility, has shields strong enough to withstand assaults from Juggernaut with minimum damage, as well as tank several hits from a Hulk that was shaking the Earth with 5.6 Earthquakes, as well as tanking hits across the US from an enraged Red She Hulk and ultimately being able to tank a full hit from a guy whose beams were capable of shattering a planet the size of Mars.

??? You're not attacking my logic at all, just saying it doesn't exist.

Just to make sure you read it:

This is a HIGH TIER battle. Each character here is massively hypersonic, with Donna being faster than the speed of light, Blue Beetle being around the Mach 100 range and Firestorm being somewhere in the middle.

This entire fight is going to happen before Banner even processes what is going on. In the first millisecond, the outcome of Donna's blitz will have been determined. In another millisecond, Firestorm will have either knocked out or BFR'd the Incredible Hulk.

At this point Banner still hasn't even processed a single image and hasn't even had a thought yet. Even if Blue Beetle wasn't present in the fight, he would either have all his tech transmuted or his mind taken over by Cable under Donna's influence.

Banner is a human. He's not even a peak human and is pitifully slow compared to everyone else in this battle. He's not going to get the chance to do anything.

That's what I said.

You really need to have proof that in any random encounter Banner is going to be invisible and with his shields up.

Even then, he's still a non-factor because in a quarter second, we'll know the outcome of Cable vs. Donna (I may have won already there) and in another half-second, Firestorm will have transmuted all of Banner's tech as he can see invisible beings.

No matter how you spin it, Banner's a non-factor. Everyone else is just too fast for him.

Blah blah useless filler blah you failed and I win blah useless filler blah

Yeah, I don't care about this passage. I'm only engaging with the actual arguments.

Donna isn't going to be fighting against him; rather, Cable will be the one fighting against your team with the magical Lasso of Persuasion.

But even if she were fighting against him (she's not), Firestorm wouldn't be fazed at all. Various incarnations of Firestorm have taken on (and sometimes taken down!):

  • A Justice League roster consisting of Superman, Wonder Woman, Hawkman, Zatanna, and Red Tornado
  • An Injustice League roster consisting of Black Adam, Amazo, Parasite, and the Royal Flush Gang
  • A different Injustice League roster consisting of Gorilla Grodd, Dr. Light, Killer Frost, Lex Luthor, Cheetah, Poison Ivy, and Deathstroke
  • Darkseid
  • The Anti-Monitor

Against these individuals and groups, Firestorm has always kept a cool head and thought logically and coherently, never buckling under the pressure. He's a very experienced superhero and I fail to see why he's going to be confused on why Hulk isn't one-shotted or be afraid of the pressure.

My guess is he's going to try to one-shot the less durable ones with a blast (Cable and Banner) and then BFR the Hulk.

But all this is hypothetical and wouldn't happen at all. Donna has enough speed to blitz Cable.

I think we've come to a strong disagreement on Donna so i'll just leave her out for this part. Either way, i need prove for ALL of this because i fail to see why Firestorm would beat a team consisting in a very powerful roster, specially since Zatanna is there, who is an extremely hax character. The same goes to the Injustice Roster, are you aware Amazo is there? Is there any context that should be noted because i'm finding rather absurd Firestorm can take on someone who stomped the entirety of the Justice League and needed Flash to play extremely smart to beat him, plus, his powers aren't restricted to anything considering he even copied the Worlologs powers IIRC, so what's stopping him from copying Firestorm as well?

I can see him beating the other roster and maybe Darkseid given how consistently Superman is enough to give him trouble or flat out beat him (unless you're talking about an avatar) but the Anti-Monitor? I need proof of this too, issue citation and everything.

You're ignoring the purpose of that list. It wasn't to show the individuals that FS had beaten in the past (don't you think I would've mentioned it if he had beaten the Anti-Monitor?), as I specified that he had taken onthese characters and had only taken down a few.

You said that FS would be fazed by going against your team + BB + Donna; I said that not only would that not happen, but even if it did, FS would not be fazed and would continue functioning at high efficiency.

You guessed wrong when you pitted him against Hulk and you were very conclusive about it, but the time he figures out he needs to take on other people it would be too late.

That battle was against random, nameless fodder. He came in cocky because he knew that it would be easy; with basic knowledge on Banner he's not going to do the same. Rather, he's going to turn all of Banner's technology into butterflies and render it useless.

Basic knowledge wouldn't let him know Banner has such amount of useful technology plus, Banner is invisible, can teleport right next to him and shoot him without him without him even noticing he was there. You're now claiming Firestorm will start transmuting everything here and there which is unlikely because my strategy is nothing but mostly a reaction to what you planned and seems unfair and rather impossible for you to change an initial strategy without me doing the same.

Sure. This is a rather tricky topic, but I'll do my best to explain it.

The Firestorm Matrix is one of the four fundamental forces of the universe, representing what humans conceive as Fire in comparison to the other four forces of Earth, Air, and Water as explained in Brightest Day and in Firestorm Vol. 3 Issues 20-30. It occupies its very own dimension that is spread out across space and time, and anyone that truly harnesses all of the power of the Firestorm Matrix would become a universal level power, as shown when Elemental Firestorm held a universe in his palm. Note that this does NOT mean that the version of Firestorm is a universal power; he's merely harnessing a fraction of this energy.

Because of its vast power and the fact that it's spread out across space and time, there are small breaches - subatomic wormholes - into the future, that certain elements of the Matrix can look into. The only element that has been shown to have this power is Martin Stein, who is included in the Composite Firestorm that I am using.

Can you show me him using it in combat? Because as far as my research goes, he can only see into the future while dreaming and he can't pin point a time frame he would like to see, making it useless for combat.

I mean, that entire instance wasn't when he was dreaming but right after the Professor had shown precognition when they were Firestorm (he was referencing how FS had "brief flashes of foresight" in combat and how they had precog during the actual issue).

He can't pinpoint a timeframe, but he can see the immediate future.

You've shown no willpower feats for Cable that trump those of Donna.

I already did, the problem is you never asked for them.

Willpower is not telepathy.

From what I've seen, the TO Virus just turns organic matter into technology. If this is the case then Firestorm can easily just transmute these non-organic parts which would also kill or incapacitate Cable.

It turns it into technology, but doesn't change it to inorganic, it's still organic and has fully functioning cells and all that jada jada. Regardless, Cable almost cure himself through the same method you're going to attempt here and that only made him exponentially more powerful and by more powerful i mean almost Dark Phoenix powerful. Even though i don't think you can transmute him, if you're successful it's going to be bad news for you, given Cable without the Techno Virus is as powerful as Shaman Nate, which is equal to the Dark Phoenix, which is horrendously above anyone in this match by all means as stated inCable #29...

I wouldn't think is a wise choice to do so.

Oh, all right. If the TO Virus is still organic then FS can't transmute it.

I believe that I've already shown many feats of Firestorm one-shotting New Gods and Black Adam, so I'm going to need more feats for Cable's shields than that instance, because Silver Surfer was obviously holding back as he straight-up demolishes Cable once he gets serious.

And regardless, Firestorm can just transmute the shields away. He's transmuted things such as negative matter, gamma radiation, and light, so I don't see why he couldn't transmute the shields away.

In addition, Firestorm can transmute things even through shields and walls; shields wouldn't do anything to his ability to transmute something that's already inside Cable.

Well... Cable doesn't have feats to put his shields above Black Adam's durability nor on Hulk's durability, but while weakened he was still able to tank Hulk punches on 2 different incarnations while he was increasingly angry.

There wasn't really an indication on panel on how hard Hulk was hitting Cable in those instances. The reason that you uniquely need an indication for Hulk is that his anger is entirely based on power level- if he's not too mad, even street levelers have survived his punches, while at his angriest Hulk's a planet buster.

If there's no indication of how hard Hulk was punching, there's no way for me to engage with the argument as we don't know what Cable actually took.

Moreover, Cable was also holding back against Silever Surfer and he was fighting him while he was sustaining the entirety of Providence and a huge flying ship in the air while he was fighting against Silver Surfer in Sydney. Basically he was using a quite decent chunk of his telekinesis on holding the virus down, holding a city and a flying ship across the world, he didn't even attempted to mind-rape Silver Surfer even though he already was inside his mind, if there was someone holding back there, it was Cable. Regardless, i have already shown you how Cable can redirect energy blasts as shown in Cable Annual from 1999 when he deflected an energy projectile in a fraction of a heartbeat.

Blatant no-limits fallacy here. Just because he can redirect fodder blasts doesn't mean he can direct FS's extremely fast, powerful blasts, which are completely on another level. Really mate, FS is a being that's taken on a variety of high tier opponents and whose versatility is almost unmatched in the DC Universe, and you're comparing him to some random emissary fodder? That isn't going to fly here especially considering that Firestorm has been able to defeat beings of the highest caliber.

Can you show me Firestorm transmuting telekinetic shields? Because the examples you gave me all have something that clearly is applicable for Firestorm's abilities. Gamma Radiation is radiation and he has done it on panel, Negative Matter has matter, no reason for him not be able to do it, light belongs to the spectrum, same as Gamma Radiation, but telekinesis hardly falls under that category, hell, i wouldn't consider those things transmutable at all considering telekinesis isn't even energy but the ability to manipulate and control the environment with different degrees of application. You can't transmute what isn't actually there to begin with.

I mean, negative matter doesn't have matter; that's why it's called negative matter. Scientists can't comprehend exactly what it is and Firestorm has consistently been able to transmute things that should not be transmutable like Negative Matter and radiation.

Regardless, you've already conceded that Cable's shields are nowhere near strong enough to tank FS's blasts, so there's no use in arguing any further.

You don't recall correctly. Firestorm has never had possession of a Mother Box that I know of. In that issue he was with Mr. Miracle, who did have a Mother Box, but Firestorm himself didn't have one.

And besides, Firestorm has used Zeta Radiation to send people away and has also sent them to the Firestorm Matrix, multiple times.

So, yes, he does have other feats regarding this ability.

Actually, you're wrong, Firestorm did have a Mother Box in that occasion and he actually asked Mister Miracle to hand him one of the mother boxes in his possession to deal with the parademon assault back in Firestorm: The Nuclear Man #35, here is the relevant part of the scan...

Moreover, you have to at least give me the citation of the Zeta Radiation because i fail to see how he's actually BFR people there, moreover, it's not something he can actually control given it is strongly implied it was side-effect of something he did and i'm starting to think it happened under specific stipulations.

The scan I quoted above said that he was able to blast them with Zeta radiation to send them somewhere else. Furthermore I showed two different scans above from different instances that both unequivocally displayed Firestorm using zeta radiation.

It wasn't implied anywhere that it was a side effect of what he did and literally all FS did was bathe them in the zeta radiation to send them away. The reason they were skeptical is because they weren't expecting Firestorm's blast and were taken aback when it happened.

Jaime isn't needed in this battle because Bruce Banner is far too slow and frail to be of use to anyone, but he can still one-shot Bruce Banner before Banner even processes what is going on, even if hacking multiple technopaths isn't a good enough feat to say he can hack BannerTech.

Jaime isn't needed and he's also useless, the fact Banner is a human with human reflexes means squat when he has a bunch of paraphernalia to rely on, gadgets that would turn Jaime into nothing but dead meat for your team and i'm growing tired of this "one shot" claim you keep mentioning. Bruce Banner's shields have taken MUCH more punishment than what Blue Beetle has ever been able to deliver, specially since it can take a direct hit from a guy whose beams were shattering a planet the size of Mars in half back in Incredible Hulks #616 when his shields were at 2% and even after taking the beam they went down to 0.23%, so it didn't even damaged him that much.

Coupled with Banner Tech withstanding assaults from Juggernaut with minor shield damage, assaults from Hulk, assaults from Red She Hulk and Stark's satellites destined to KO World Breaker Hulk means he should be able to withstand Blue Beetle's beam. That said, i think you're grossly overestimating Blue Beetle while underestimating Banner. He doesn't need to be a confirmed High-Tier, the fact he can keep up with people that are actually high-tiers or solid powerhouses on their own right is enough to be completely relevant in this fight. Just before you claim Banner can't block a neural disrupting beam, he can, considering he has blocked cosmic beams, kinetic energy, explosions, blunt force, lasers and whatnot, so electricity shouldn't be an issue.

The problem with all this is that with all of those instances Banner had a brief period of time to prepare for the fight and activate his shields, while he does not have that luxury here. The fact remains that Banner by default does not have his shields activated and is thus unable to defeat Blue Beetle simply because Jaime's fast enough to take him down with efficacy.

Donna's willpower is far, far stronger than Cable and has granted her a higher degree of telepathy resistance than Starheart users who themselves have resisted the highest order of telepaths. Cable can't react to a blitz and will be unable to use his telepathy regardless.

Very confident and completely unsupported statement when by your own admission you haven't seen Cable's will power and asked for proof. Regardless, her will is questionable given she easily fell for Bogeyman and figured out how to deal with the assault after quite a long time and she also fell for Lust, with Cable she will be mentally subjugated and dispatched with telekinesis and she has absolutely no counter for it, i mean, Cable can assault beings that shrug off telepathic assaults of planet enslavers and cosmic cube beings... Donna is a child's play. Cable will react to the blitz, she can't move that fast and you've failed to debunk Cable's feat, much less prove she will restrain Cable before he busts her brains out through her ears with telekinesis.

Okay,

  1. She didn'tfall for Bogeyman... that's the whole point of the scan. Originally, she was caught off-guard and he was able to create an illusion but once she realized she was inside of an illusion she easily broke free...
  2. Lust is one of the sons of Trigon and stated to be an almost Dark Raven-level empath; not only is it insignificant that she succumbed to him but it's also silly that this is a feat of willpower because all Lust did was convert the emotions inside of her to Lust, that includes taking away her willpower through empathy. You can't resist empathy of that level with just willpower.
  3. Meanwhile all you've shown for Cable is his telepathy feats, totally unrelated to willpower and you've made highly questionable statements about all of telepathy being based around willpower. That's completely silly mate and I think you know this as well; willful beings have been defeated by less willful telepaths all the time.

Firestorm is going to transmute all of Banner's technology into cake with a thought as soon as he can and there's nothing Banner can do about it.

Banner will be invisible,

Firestorm can see invisible beings.

Firestorm wasn't going for Banner to begin with and changing targets because reasons isn't a logical possibility within the character development of your team.

Multitasking exists. Furthermore, considering how slow Banner moves compared to everyone else, Firestorm could easily take out Cable and Hulk and then take down Banner before he's even processed a single frame in his head; that's how fast we're moving. Your mistake for putting someone that slow in a high tier battle.

You chose your strategy and you need to defend it, not adapt it to every counter i'll bring.

All right,

  1. That's entirely unfair not only given that I've only slightly tweaked my strategy from post to post but also and more importantly because you're posting second in the matchup, this distinctly gives you an unfair advantage if we play by your rules because it means you can adapt and I can't...
  2. Precognition and basic knowledge mean that we'll know about your characters and adapt accordingly
  3. FS's fast enough to take them all down quickly.

As i said before, the way my characters are playing here are mostly driven by your own actions, given you were the one playing on the reckless offensive and divided the match in 1v1 scenarios, at least on your side.

1v1 is the cleanest way to debate, but there are also spillover effects that affect other 1v1s; for example, if Donna wins the Cable matchup then the other matchups don't matter because her Lasso can force Cable to TK-kill everyone else.

Hulk is also extremely vulnerable to BFR and honestly can be harmed by Firestorm. Come to think of it, your entire team is. What's stopping Firestorm from just sending them all a couple light-years away for a victory?

Hulk can be harmed by Firestorm but he sure as hell isn't going down with the force you've shown, even less so when his healing factor prevents it. That said, i think you're stretching your capabilities... First you divided your team in 1v1 matches,

I mean, Hulk at basehasn't shown the same durability Black Adam has, he hasn't shrugged off Dr. Fate and Power Girl level blasts like they're nothing at base, and only did so when he got exceptionally angry, and here he doesn't start off that mad unless you prove it, which you haven't.

then you claimed Firestorm would deal with Banner first,

Neversaid that. I said that given how quickly the Firestorm v. Hulk and Cable v. Donna matchups will be decided, FS can take on Banner after those two because Banner's so slow.

then you claimed Firestorm would BFR all of them...

All of them? I never said he could BFR all of them, not even once.

I mean, don't you think those scenarios are quite unlikely to happen, even more so when they do not share a decent justification as to why they are going to happen besides my team posing a threat you didn't expect at first?

"Don't you agree with me an admit that your team loses?" is what you're really asking...

No, I don't agree with you.

Firestorm's immune, the scarab can kill Jaime so that he has no mind and revive him later, and Donna is nigh-immune.

I know Firestorm is immune, never tried to assault him, Donna on the other hand lacks feats to suggest she can stand up to Cable's telepathy when the most powerful telepaths of Marvel either struggle or are flat out unable to overpower Cable. The scarab killing Jaime is an absurdly unpractical countermeasure, you'll waste time and the scarab will be nullified through Banner-Tech instantly, Jaime is as useless as a square tire.

The scarab killing Jaime takes no time at all; you're just saying it's unpractical (without reason) because it's a perfectly fine way to counter Cable's TP.

The scarab's technopathy has taken control of multiple othertechnopaths, something Bannertech hasneverdone and frankly it's absurd to say that Banner-tech will "instantly" take down the Scarab...

Firestorm will transmute all of your tech before that can happen.

Not really. You've failed to prove WHY Firestorm is changing his first target,

He's not...

HOW he will be focused on banner if your team has no communication whatsoever

Because he has eyes? And because he can see if Beetle goes down (which wouldn't happen) and regardless the others on the team are so fast that Banner won't have time to even process what happened before we know who really won?

and the fact they are all rushing without any previous conversation will dampen the chances of Firestorm even operating as you're suggesting.

Perfect teamwork :)

I'm also partially skeptical about Firestorm being able to see invisible beings, care to show me an instance, because the only one i recall is highly questionable and most likely he just figured out the people was invisible, not that he could see invisible people...

Oh, come on now. You can't just jettison every feat I give you in the debate by saying "it's coincidence," and then turn around and justify all of your important feats with no justification and flat out call my rebuttals absurd even when they use logic similar to yours.

There was no indication that Firestorm just randomly figured out where the guy was; he flew to the man's exact position and grabbed him.

He can see invisible beings.

If he can't Banner would be unphased and he'll be the sabotage commando in this entire battle, dealing with both Firestorm and Blue Beetle.

Banner is a non-factor here no matter how you spin it.

Summary

Defensive

  1. All my characters have counters to telepathy. Firestorm's immune as you well know, Donna's willpower is too strong for her to be affected, and Jaime can play dead in order to evade the attack.
  2. Banner can't even process how fast any of my characters will be moving. He's a non-factor.
  3. There's no way any of your characters can really put down Firestorm given his intangibility.

Offensive

  1. Donna is fast enough to blitz. Her feats against Wally West, Green Lantern, and GoW Wonder Woman make her faster than Cable, who honestly doesn't even have lightspeed reaction times as I have previously delineated.
  2. If Donna is fast enough to blitz, your entire team goes down due to Cable being on my team and mind-raping your team.
  3. If she isn't, then Firestorm can still solo this match. He can BFR Hulk, turn all of Banner's gadgets into cake and either BFR Cable or just take away the non-organic parts of Cable's body, defeating him.

Your Defense's Counter

Two of your characters are susceptible to telepathy, two of your characters can deal with telepathy but can be taken out through other means, Donna's will is nothing compared to what Cable has dealt.

Jaime dies if he gets affected by TP and the scarab operates independently; Donna Troy is susceptible but that doesn't even matter.

Banner doesn't need to process that fast, it takes him no time to set a dome the size of Manhattan when people can't even see him, plus, he doesn't need to evade attacks because his shields are horrendously powerful, which you keep neglecting and underrating and as i mentioned previously, Banner can pull him out of intangibility.

Banner is a (not peak) human and even if it takes one second to set up the dome that is still far too slow given that all the characters besides him are massively hypersonic and have broken mach speeds on numerous occations; they can attack in a fraction of a second.

Your Offense's Counter

You've failed to prove Donna is as fast as you're claiming and this argument has been extensively addressed in this match, you've focused your entire strategy on Donna blitzing Cable when in reality she can't, she can't even tackle him without literally bleeding his brain out of her ears.

Will cover this later.

The last part is rather funny, Cable is going to warp reality if you take out the Virus and contrary to Nate Grey, his body and mental dexterity is actually prepared to harness a power equal to the Phoenix Force, good luck with that.

Well, it's a good thing the TO Virus is organic and FS can't transmute it then!

Proceeding with my Strategy

Donna

Given the fact you've failed to prove Donna is fast enough to blitz Cable in the very unlikely way you're suggesting, Cable brings her down with a simple telepathic bolt to the brain and telekinesis on her ears or blood vein pressure, 2 strategies he has used on-panel, with incredible ease and bloodlusted, as he's here.

Not going to happen- Donna's fast enough.

Blue Beetle

Blue Beetle is the weakest player on your team and the fact he relies on a completely technological artifact to do pretty much everything he does, on top of that being a immature teenager which relies on the Scarab's logical thinking to deal with most of his foes, means Banner will take advantage of that and perform his part of the strategy flawlessly.

Banner also relies entirely upon technology, and Blue Beetle has grown to be incredibly mature and able to keep a cool head under pressure after he grew into the Blue Beetle mantle; furthermore the scarab is perfectly logical and it's the one taking control here.

He will start invisible which means Firestorm shouldn't be able to notice him that fast (that of course if he actually sees invisible beings),

He does.

And besides, in Blue Beetle #5 Jaime was able to sense the invisible Phantom Stranger there so even if Banner starts invisible he's still going to be taken down in a heartbeat unless you provide definitive proof that his shields will remain up.

Donna won't be able to see him and Blue Beetle won't have time to notice him, he's going to activate his Gamma Dome in the very first seconds of the fight and neutralize Blue Beetle completely.

First seconds? That's cute. All of my characters are capable of fighting in less than a second and are massively hypersonic in combat speed. Few seconds is way too slow when you're in a high tier match.

Firestorm

This is the hardest part and honestly, he's a very powerful foe and very hard to deal with, however, the combination of my team is enough to bring him down.

On an off-note (unrelated to the battle), I really like the respect you've shown Firestorm. I think he's very underrated and it's good to see someone recognize his power.

As previously stated, once Donna and Blue Beetle are down, which will be rather fast given the speed at which each of the tactics take place and manifest themselves, Firestorm will be by his own and considering he'll be fighting Hulk at this time, that leaves Banner plenty of time to jump on the fight the right time.

Not really. I'd say that Firestorm could blast Hulk a couple times and, if Hulk remains conscious, just BFR him, all in the span of less than a second. We know how dangerous your team is, and we're going to come out of the gates swinging, not giving you a second to regain your footing and right after FS defeats Hulk he'll move on to Banner / Cable, transmuting Banner's tech and either frying the circuitry of Cable's brains with a blast, or BFRing him, or plain concussively blasting him into oblivion.

The sole and only reason Firestorm isn't beaten easily is because of his intangibility, which Banner can counter with his anti-intangibility stun gun which at the same time can launch and neural-stunner to incapacitate Firestorm the moment he comes tangible, as shown during Hulk #21 and it was strong and efficient enough to completely paralyze Loeb's Red Hulk.

Frankly there's no reason that Beetle and FS can take Banner down. Jaime's a very powerful technopath and was able to free many other hosts of their own technopathic scarabs, a feat that Banner has never replicated; meaning he can hack Banner-tech.

FS waves his hand and Banner's tech turns into cake.

At the same time, Hulk will be punching him and smashing him...

Hulk will be light years away thanks to zeta radiation, or perhaps just plain knocked out.

This is a situation Firestorm can't survive and he'll be knocked out and greatly damaged in no time. I think the strategy is pretty solid and the fact you're extrapolating over Firestorm's abilities to justify actions means you don't really have a concrete counter to justify Firestorm getting away of this.

I'm not going to excessively diatribe that your strategy is bad like you did for me, but I don't think it's a very plausible way to beat this team at all.

2. Win Conditions

The way I see it, there are two ways for me to win:

  1. Donna Troy blitzes Cable
  2. Firestorm solos

Here's why I win if either of these are true.

Donna Troy blitzing Cable

If Donna blitzes Cable and gets her Lasso of Persuasion around Cable, then not only is Cable taken out of the match, but he would also be turned against Banner and Hulk, because the Lasso allows Donna to control him.

Insofar as the much turns into a 4v2 with my team boasting both Cable and Firestorm, there's just no scenario in which Hulk and Banner are victorious- Cable's telepathy has already been shown to be able to incapacitate both Banner and Hulk, his TK can hold them in place or flat-out KO them, and Firestorm can BFR or freeze Hulk (more on that later) while transmuting all of Banner's tech.

Firestorm solos

Well, I'd say that it's pretty obvious why this would allow me to win the match.

Firestorm has taken on entire teams of high tier beings and sometimes even defeated them thanks to his versatility and ability to multitask, and as a result, wouldn't be fazed by taking on Cable, Hulk, and Banner alone. He'd continue to operate with perfect efficacy, and if I prove that FS has the capability to take the three down, then he will certainly be able to in spite of GR's claims of him being unfocused.

3. Firestorm's Trump Card: Absolute Zero

Jason makes absolute zero on the sun
Jason makes absolute zero on the sun

If Firestorm is having trouble BFR'ing or blasting your team, he would freeze them.

One of Firestorm's most powerful abilities is temperature manipulation; specifically, the ability to create a field of absolute zero.

Absolute zero means that there is 0 particle movement, at all. It is impossible for anyone or anything to move while under these temperatures.

That means that he just has to be in range - a few yards away - for us to get the win automatically.

And knowing how versatile your team is, and especially if he's going against a 3-on-1 that just took down Blue Beetle and Donna Troy, two extremely powerful characters? He's not going to hold this back.

This takes down your entire team. Hulk can't move here, and I know that you're going to bring up thisand this, but he was able to survive the former due to his suit and was in and out relatively quickly, and the latter only says that he can survive absolute zero, not move inside it.

Furthermore, bios are an incredibly inconsistent and horrible representation of characters' fighting abilities- they put Steve Rogers as a 6 in fighting skills, 2 points above the clearly superior or at least on the same level Black Panther, who was a 4.

Thus, absolute zero is a valid measure of incapacitation for Hulk.

Absolute zero takes down Cable, too, given that it would freeze his neurons and prevent him from thinking or doing anything.

Overall... you can't win this. Firestorm is too powerful and versatile for you.

4. Summary of Arguments // Feats Shown

A basic outline on this section:

  1. Donna Troy's Speed
  2. Cable's Speed
  3. Willpower
  4. Blue Beetle vs. Banner: Technopathy
  5. Banner's Speed
  6. Firestorm's Blasts
  7. Firestorm's freezing
  8. Firestorm's BFR
  9. Firestorm's intangibility

Yes, I know that it's long, but this debate was all over the place and I tried to make this portion as concise as possible.

Honestly though, if voters are convinced that I've won one of the arguments listed here, then there's no reason for them to read it. Otherwise, though, please do.

Argument 1: Donna Troy's Speed

Feats Shown:

  • Kept up with God of War Wonder Woman, an amped version of Diana, for multiple pages (Wonder Woman Volume 4 Annual, shown in Post 30)
  • Briefly evaded Wally West (Titans v2 #3, shown in Post 30)
  • Blitzed Green Lantern (Titans v2 #10, shown in Post 30)
  • Blitzed a Monitor, a being that was casually able to react to a Flash (Countdown #17, shown in this post)
  • Caught up to Jessie Quick (Titans v1, shown in Post 2)

That's four different volumes where Donna was shown to have the speed necessary to take down Cable, even if his Lightmaster feat is valid (it's not). Different writers all agree that Donna is indeed that fast.

GR's responses (my replies are in bold)

  • Wonder Woman isn't that fast (she reacted to the Omega Beams, and the response about how she already had her bracelets up doesn't make much sense considering that it was literally shown that she didn't and warriors don't enter fights holding up their shields)
  • She didn't evade Wally West (This was kind of just an assertion and not really backed up by fact; Wally was indeed bloodlusted and morals off considering that a powerful empath had taken him over, and the fact that Donna even made it out of there alive speaks volumes to her speed)
  • Jesse Quick wasn't moving that fast (Flashes move extraordinarily fast)
  • The Monitor feat has gone completely ignored to for this entire debate, it alone is sufficient to prove Donna's speed
  • Green Lantern wasn't paying attention to her (given the circumstances, Jericho, who was possessing GL at the time, was only trying to escape, and he knew how fast Superman and the like were so he was definitely going at full speed to escape)

But regardless, let's look at the angle with which Donna blitzed GL....

No Caption Provided

And now let's look at the human field of vision:

No Caption Provided

Donna clearly came at GL at an angle that he should have been able to see. However, she was able to blitz him before he could even think, as he couldn't think to put up his shield....

John Stewart is MFTL and he was possessed by a crazy murderer who was going as fast as he could to escape, and yet Donna could still blitz him before thought.

John Stewart's many times faster than Cable and Ghostravage has conceded as much. Donna can bltiz Cable.

Argument 2: Cable's Speed

Feats shown:

  • Cable fighting with Silver Surfer real fast
  • Cable "reacting" to Lightmaster

My counters:

  • I calculated this to be 1/18th the speed of light, which isn't impressive at all in this debate; Donna's irrefutably much faster than that.
  • This was a huge point in the debate. I did a panel-by-panel analysis, and showed that:
    1. Lightmaster was clearly slowed by the debris, as Cable had a conversation with a priest before Lightmaster attacked when Lightmaster was stated to have been able to get from the moon back to Earth in less time than it took to have the conversation. Thus, Cable had his shields up before Lightmaster's attack, making it irrelevant.
    2. I did a panel-by-panel analysis of what happened, and showed my argument to be true while GR just negates them by disagreeing, not providing any evidence or warrant to match that level of precision.
    3. When Cable TK-ragdolled Lightmaster, Lightmaster wasn't moving, so it's not notable because it doesn't show the ability to react to the speed of light at all- the blur around Lansky is only there to signify that he is in fact being ragdolled.

It would really be unfair to include more of Cable's speed feats in the final post, because I wouldn't have the chance to refute them.

Argument 3: Willpower

This was the argument that Cable would be able to resist the magical Lasso of Persuasion because his willpower trumps Donna's.

Feats shown for Cable / against Donna:

  • a bunch of TP feats
  • a comparison in willpower between Cable and Galactus

Feat shown against Donna (response in bold)

  • Lust was able to control her | Lust is an empath, not a telepath and her power was not only stated to be close to Dark Raven levels who is planetary level threat, but empathy is literally based off of augmenting certain emotions and suppressing others; all Lust did was make sure that Donna's lust was more significant than her willpower here, and it's wholly impossible to resist an empath with just willpower

Feats shown for Donna:

  • uses a weapon that entirely relies on her willpower trumping her enemies, akin to a Green Lantern Ring in terms of how it works
  • having the willpower to fight bloody through scenarios where it seemed hopeless (against Starheart Alan Scott, Eclipso, etc.)
  • resisted telepathy through sheer willpower - her willpower was so strong that it fried the telepaths mind when he tried to control her, and she was able to hijack his mind and force him through sheer willpower to take him to someone else's mind.

Those are incrediblewillpower feats, and unmatched by Cable in any way, shape, or form.

Telepathy is not about willpower and never has been; otherwise Martian Manhunter (who has high willpower) would be beating Despero (who does not have high willpower).

Finally, just Silver Surfer saying that Cable's willpower is on the level of Galactus (which honestly isn't anything significant given that Galan himself has zero willpower feats), is a statement and should be taken with a grain of salt given how exaggerative characters tend to be in making statements.

Argument 4: Blue Beetle vs. Banner: Technopathy

I've displayed Blue Beetle hacking multiple other technopaths (scarabs), and the contention that it was just "choices" or PIS isn't really going to fly considering that Jaime had literally no access to those other scarabs; they weren't connected or plugged in to his normal scarabs. Banner's never shown the ability to contend with multiple other technopaths and certainly not a sophisticated piece of alien technology like the Scarab.

Argument 5: Banner's Speed

Honestly? Argument 4 doesn't even matter.

Like I've been saying, both Firestorm and Donna have processing time that is and approaching (or in Donna's case, exceeding) the speed of light; as a result, Firestorm will take care of Hulk and if necessary Cable rather expeditiously, before Banner gets a chance to do anything.

In other words, GR says that Banner's dome and all that jazz will be activated within a second; he's not going to get a second. He's also shown absolutely no proof that Banner always has his shields and invisibility up 100% of the time in a random encounter, meaning that Firestorm's instant transmutation of his tech after he's taken down Cable and Hulk is totally feasible.

Furthermore, Firestorm can see invisible beings and saying that he just happened to find the exact spot where that invisible being was out of coincidence and luck is downright inane.

Banner's a non-factor here, and he's certainly not going to get the chance to make Firestorm tangible again given that Firestorm can and will take down his technology with a wave of his hand.

Argument 6: Firestorm's Blasts

Given that Ghostravage entirely conceded that Cable's shields and Cable would go down as he doesn't have durability anywhere close to Black Adam, who Firestorm one-shotted, I don't feel the need to debate this further.

Furthermore, the Vine seemed to agree that Hulk had greater durability than Black Adam in the frozen vs ghostravage CaV, so I won't argue that Firestorm can KO Hulk with blasts any further, although I certainly believe that he can...

Argument 7: Firestorm's freezing

See above.

The only time Hulk ever resisted absolute zero was when he had a suit that gave him additional thermal energy, and his bio said that he could take absolute zero temperatures but didn't say that he would be able to move in them as that would require near Flash level speed to do.

Banner doesn't need to be frozen, he'll be transmuted.

Cable has also shown 0 resistance to absolute zero temperatures.

Argument 8: Firestorm's BFR

Pretty straightforward. I showed 2 ways of Firestorm BFR'ing people.

  1. using Zeta Beams to send them light-years away
  2. taking them into the Matrix

Both happened multiple times (2 instances shown in this debate), so it's safe to say that BFR is in character and would happen if Firestorm gets tired of Cable and Hulk.

GR's counters (my replies in bold)

  • BannerTech can get them back | Not really, considering that FS can transmute all of Banner's tech in a millisecond. Second, there's no proof that Banner's tech can reach light-years away or in another dimension.
  • He can't actually do it | I'll give you that the MotherBox instance had context, but Firestorm unequivocally hasbeen able to BFR people into the Matrix and through zeta beams in the past
  • Reflecting BFR beams with TK | Firestorm can just turn the air around Cable into zeta radiation like he did in the first scan I showed, meaning that there's no beam to deflect. Furthermore, even if the beams get deflected, Firestorm can just use the zeta on himself to get back to the battlefield.

Argument 9: Firestorm's Intangibility

There hasn't been a single way of making Firestorm tangible. Aside from the BannerTech, which is totally infeasible due to the fact that BannerTech can be transmuted with a wave of the hand, the closest was this:

How exactly is Firestorm soloing? By performing in a way he sure as hell wouldn't be able to? By being intangible all the time, blasting everyone with Black Adam ordinance beams, transmuting inorganic matter and blitzing at the same time? Don't you think that's actually incredibly far fetched? C'mon now.

Basically, this is saying that Firestorm won't be able to remain intangible all the time. However, there's no reason why he couldn't and especially given that he did against the Rannian Space Armada inFirestorm v3 while simultaneously blasting them, he will definitely be able to here.

Treating Firestorm like an amateur that is afraid and unwilling to showcase his full diversity against a team of 3 people (one who is pitifully slow and two more who can't touch him) is a real misrepresentation of his character, given that he's taken extremely dangerous situations in the past and kept a cool head.

5. Recap of Strategy

Donna

Blitz Cable. That's it.

Blue Beetle

Hack Banner, then use neural blasters to take him down once that's done with.

Firestorm

This is what he'll do, in chronological order.

  1. Go intangible
  2. Blast Hulk and Cable
  3. BFR Hulk and Cable
  4. Absolute zero field if those two don't work (which they really should)
  5. Transmute BannerTech (a millisecond still has not passed as of steps 1-4 and Banner hasn't processed anything because he's pitifully slow)

Honestly, there's still no way to take Firestorm down when he's intangible- the only way that's been offered thus far (and it's too late to propose a new way, as this is a final post and it would be unfair to me if you added a new argument that I wouldn't be able to rebut) has been through Banner's technology, and that itself is slow and easily transmuted.

6. Overall Summary

Defense

  • There's been zero proof in this debate that Banner always has his shields and invisibility up, and both Beetle and FS can see invisibility / take out his tech anyway
  • Cable's TP doesn't work for Beetle or Firestorm as the scarab can kill Jaime if he gets mindraped and the latter's just immune
  • Hulk's brute strength doesn't do him much good here because of Firestorm's versatility

Offense

  • Jaime hacking
    • He's taken down technopaths and can move faster than Banner can think
  • Firestorm soloing
    • There's literally no way that team GhostRavage can put this dude down
    • Banner gets transmuted and blasted before his puny human mind processes anything
    • As long as one of FS's 3 attacks (Blasting, BFR, absolute zero) can take out Hulk and Cable, he solos
  • Donna's blitz
    • Donna has been shown by multiple writers to be incredibly fast
    • She blitzed a Green Lantern while Cable's best speed feat is 1/18th the speed of light
    • I did a panel-by-panel breakdown of the Lightmaster feat and debunked it
    • The claim about friction doesn't really apply here because she has the durability to catch on fire and still go max speed

7. Thank You

@ghostravage: Whew... took us a year to complete, but what an epic debate... the most challenging one I've had yet; mad respect to ya mate. Thanks for this amazing experience and the opportunity to rep 3 of my 4 favorite characters (Black Canary is the 4th) in one debate.

I'll definitely use this in my next campaign for the Hall of Fame.

Tag me when you're done so I can open this up for votes!