Leia Organa Solo vs Ulic-Qel Droma

VS

Rules:

-Morals on, determined to win.

-Start 10 feet apart.

-Fight takes place on Dantooine.

-Win by death or KO.

Who wins and why?

@shootingnova@jkbart@i_like_swords@dccomicsrule2011@wollfmyth209@burnface@darthmanhunter@penderor@juiceboks@jacthripper

Ulic.

Leia could frankly stomp Ulic with the Force, but since morals are on - she won't opt to do it. Organa is sporting the speed advantage by a noticeable margin, but Ulic is the superior duelist.

Meh. Probably, Droma.

Leia isn't stomping anything with the Force.

Her Force powers are on Kyp Durron's level (you know, that guy that moved a Black Hole before his prime), so yes, she can.

Which isn't supported by showings, lel.

Ehh. Kyp is quite arrogant, so I doubt he would undersell himself just to hype up Leia, or vise-versa. Regardless, holding a ship drive together as it entered an atmosphere is a great feats considering the amount of pressure that surrounded the ship via friction, and plethora of other forces acting against it, before her prime, no less.

I could calculate how, much force would have been at work on the ship using our Earth own atmosphere, but I'm not the one to turn this into a battle of arithmetic.

Also gonna go with Droma.

I think Ulic no-selling Ommin's sorcery on a nexus, canonically being far more powerful than Aleema Keto who could make illusions that look like they could chew up a fleet of capital ships, or Satal Keto who could casually manipulate hundreds of pilots into becoming suicide bombers, being a rival of Exar Kun, and being able to casually absorb laser cannon blasts that were opening up Naga Sadow's capital ship, is enough to suggest that Leia wouldn't stomp him.

^^ I just think you're an Ulic fanboy, tbh.

Nope, I chose to root for the winning team, I'm afraid.

At least Leia, is an actual canon character.

Yeah it was an artificial Black Hole, but Dovin Basal's gravity manipulation is enough to rip Moons out of their orbit and send it crashing towards their parent planet, and make missile and shields go poof, so it's still a pretty high tier feat.

As for Kyp's quote:

Yammosks could detect the Force, and Kyp maintained that Leia was as strong in the Force as he was. Han was not at all eased by the explanation.

Excerpt taken from The New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force

In Vector prime ilthe Vong executors said that a single dovin basal could collapse and destroy an entire planet. I'll have to find a quote for that

@darthant66:

That's not a credible source. It's typical Jedi custom to humble yourself.

Normally sure, but Kyp is not your average Jedi Master. But yeah, I get it. Kyp Durron is not exactly infallible.

I agree with @dccomicsrule2011 morals on for Ulic and morals off for Leia.

Ulic in a standard fight

Ulic's just more skilled. Leia is faster and probably more powerful but it wouldn't matter that much.

No idea why Kyp's quote is so hard to believe, though. Kyp's hardly a typical Jedi master, nor is he known for his humbleness. Given Leia's status as the twin sister of Luke and direct descendant of Anakin, beings with the most Force potential of recorded history, it's not really difficult to accept that she's of similar power to Kyp Durron. Her telekinesis actually appears to be one of her weaker areas in the Force.

Ulic could probably take a slight majority. Though Leia is certainly powerful and could pose a problem with speed perhaps.

Leia is certainly capable of challenging him through speed and power, but the skill difference is over half a tier which is just too much.

I think Leia's speed could have been misinterpreted, quite a lot.

Her running ten miles in a few seconds feat seems off. It relies on the notion that the ship was being swallowed up at a similar rate as the other fleet was swallowed, right? Well there's two things. One, Palpatine had lost control of the storm, so there's no way of knowing how different the speeds are between a controlled and uncontrolled storm. Two, when her and Luke and flying away in a shuttle, quite a distance away, they're looking back on the remnants of the ship still being destroyed. Not sure what the math is, but for them to run to the hanger, start up a shuttle, and then fly a fair distance away, I would assume that they had more than "a few seconds to spare".

As for her deflecting three or five thousand blaster bolts in the space of a couple of seconds... for one that speed is just unheard of, and I think there's a reason for it; it was written from Han Solo, a non-enhanced being's, perspective. Hence why he was baffled enough by the display of light to think there could be three or five thousand bolts in motion.

So yeah.. after getting those feats out of the picture Leia's speed is looking above average, but not much more than that.

All I see is just some Salt towards the NJO at how lightning fast they are :p

@laflux: Ulic with no connection to the Force is faster than Nomi Sunrider to the point he can fight someone she see's only as a blur; with the Force, he would be substantially faster. NJO ain't touching this.

Because Nomi's perception speed is so great.

:P

Good enough to deflect blaster bolts on a DS nexus.

@i_like_swords: Perception speed. Not precog.

@night4345: You think Jedi can't perceive blaster bolts despite being able to place their blade in their travel paths and even redirect them at specific targets? You can't do that without being able to perceive them, bruh.

@i_like_swords: Yeah, they can. It's called Precognition.

@night4345: Right... but precognition doesn't help you perceive the projectile you're trying to put a relatively thin sword in front of.

@i_like_swords: No, it tells you where the bolt is going to go so you can move your lightsaber to meet it.

@night4345: It gives a glimpse of the future, letting them know a blaster bolt is coming before it does. In some cases they will line their blade up just before the bolt leaves the barrel. In other cases though? Sometimes their enhanced speed is what allows them to perceive and react to blaster bolts. Such as on a crowded battlefield. Hence why Jedi are renowned for their "reflexes".

Surely in your reading you've come across a Force user perceiving blaster bolts?.....

@night4345: And then there's no proof that Nomi's precognition is why she can deflect blaster bolts on your end.

It's a pretty common ability. Palpatine remarked that Maul's reflexes as an infant were superhuman purely because of his Force sensitivity.

@night4345:

We're to just assume it's her speeding up her perceptions when nothing in the art or text says she does?

Using your logic we shouldn't assume anything until one of us provides proof; given that I can't be arsed, I'm not sure if that will end up happening.

Reflexes not perception. Two different things.

Indeed, but a reflex is kind of useless if it isn't triggered by something.. like a blaster bolt heading your way. They go hand in hand in this case because it's all well and good reacting to a blaster bolt, but you won't actually manage to deflect it if you can't see it.

@i_like_swords: Using your logic we shouldn't assume anything until one of us provides proof; given that I can't be arsed, I'm not sure if that will end up happening.

You mean all that proof that Force users rely on their precognition to fight hence why they had such a hard time fighting the Vong. That they let the force guide them because eyes can deceive you. But where's the proof, right?

Indeed, but a reflex is kind of useless if it isn't triggered by something.. like a blaster bolt heading your way. They go hand in hand in this case because it's all well and good reacting to a blaster bolt, but you won't actually manage to deflect it if you can't see it.

This is ridiculous. Reacting to something doesn't mean you perceive it (especially at slow motion that Jedi do) even more so when one of your basic powers that untrained children can use is precognition.

@night4345:

You mean all that proof that Force users rely on their precognition to fight hence why they had such a hard time fighting the Vong. That they let the force guide them because eyes can deceive you. But where's the proof, right?

That has absolutely nothing to do with blaster bolt deflection. Provide proof that precognition, alone, is how Jedi deflect blaster bolts. Not their superhuman speed.

This is ridiculous. Reacting to something doesn't mean you perceive it (especially at slow motion that Jedi do) even more so when one of your basic powers that untrained children can use is precognition.

I would class it as a necessity if you want to deflect the projectile. Again, reflexes are useless if the bolt you are deflecting is too fast for you to see (whether that be through the Force or your eyesight). If they couldn't see the bolt they want to deflect, then they would be reacting like frightened children trying to hit something faster than their eyes can track.

Anyway, here's the feat itself. Even going by your method of evaluation which borders on claiming Force Users lack enhanced speed altogether, it's still highly impressive that Sylvar's speed was fast enough to exceed Nomi's precognition and ability to react.

That accompanied by Sylvar's feats of speedblitzing massassi and other various beasts, should be enough to suggest that Ulic dueling her without being connected to the Force is a big deal. I guess you'll vehemently deny that as well though, right? :)

@i_like_swords: That has absolutely nothing to do with blaster bolt deflection. Provide proof that precognition, alone, is how Jedi deflect blaster bolts. Not their superhuman speed.

If proof from the original source material isn't enough for you I give up.

I would class it as a necessity if you want to deflect the projectile. Again, reflexes are useless if the bolt you are deflecting is too fast for you to see (whether that be through the Force or your eyesight). If they couldn't see the bolt they want to deflect, then they would be reacting like frightened children trying to hit something faster than their eyes can track.

I guess someone hasn't been paying attention when even younglings are deflecting lasers while blind.

Anyway, here's the feat itself. Even going by your method of evaluation which borders on claiming Force Users lack enhanced speed altogether, it's still highly impressive that Sylvar's speed was fast enough to exceed Nomi's precognition and ability to react.

Please stop trying to put words in my mouth, it's quite pathetic. Funny how you misrepresented the feat as Sylvar moving as a blur to her eyes when it's before she reacts. I'm not sure the art is based on Nomi's point of view, whether the blur is actually her lightsaber (judging by the color it's her lightsaber) which isn't that impressive, and why her precognition would react to someone not attacking her.

That accompanied by Sylvar's feats of speedblitzing massassi and other various beasts, should be enough to suggest that Ulic dueling her without being connected to the Force is a big deal. I guess you'll vehemently deny that as well though, right? :)

Was she actually moving too fast to be seen by them or is this just her slashing at them? I find the term speed-blitzing over used and just not correctly used. Not sure how speed-blitzing animals is impressive.

Leia should be faster and more powerful. And she's at least comparable in skill. I'll back Leia for now.

@night4345:

If proof from the original source material isn't enough for you I give up.

I guess someone hasn't been paying attention when even younglings are deflecting lasers while blind.

You're right about them not necessarily requiring their eyes to perceive blaster bolts, but Force users do perceive and react to such projectiles through the Force, so it's more or less the same deal. And it isn't precognition alone that allows Jedi to react to blaster bolts - it's also partially due to their own reflexes.

"You are different because you are stronger. You have powers. You know things in advance. You look at the closed door to your room, and you know it is about to open. You have fast reflexes. Others only dream of anticipating moments as you do, or being able to move so fast. In this way you and I are alike, Maul, except that my powers are much greater."

-The Wrath of Darth Maul

Please stop trying to put words in my mouth, it's quite pathetic. Funny how you misrepresented the feat as Sylvar moving as a blur to her eyes when it's before she reacts. I'm not sure the art is based on Nomi's point of view, whether the blur is actually her lightsaber (judging by the color it's her lightsaber) which isn't that impressive, and why her precognition would react to someone not attacking her.

The only thing pathetic is your attempt at debating, lmfao. Go back to making threads.

I didn't misrepresent the feat, genius. Sylvar was clearly portrayed as a blur to Nomi, hence why she killed the droid before Nomi could react.

Precognition isn't exclusively limited to someone attacking you - it's a glimpse into the future. Regardless, the point is, moving faster than a superhumanly fast being can react, is an impressive feat. I didn't realize this was difficult for you to grasp at first but hopefully you understand that and the actual mechanics of the Force a little better now.

Was she actually moving too fast to be seen by them or is this just her slashing at them? I find the term speed-blitzing over used and just not correctly used. Not sure how speed-blitzing animals is impressive.

My definition of speedblitzing is killing before one can react and defend themselves, which is exactly what Sylvar did to the massassi (warriors enhanced by the dark side; superhumans).

How are you suggesting she actually wins? If she's faster it's by a meaningless amount, she's more powerful but lacks both the disparity and the morals required to make that matter, and she's solidly below Ulic as a fighter.

This thread is, most pleasantly, seething with rage.

@i_like_swords: You're right about them not necessarily requiring their eyes to perceive blaster bolts, but Force users do perceive and react to such projectiles through the Force, so it's more or less the same deal. And it isn't precognition alone that allows Jedi to react to blaster bolts - it's also partially due to their own reflexes.

"You are different because you are stronger. You have powers. You know things in advance. You look at the closed door to your room, and you know it is about to open. You have fast reflexes. Others only dream of anticipating moments as you do, or being able to move so fast. In this way you and I are alike, Maul, except that my powers are much greater."

-The Wrath of Darth Maul

Nothing in that has anything to do with sight and everything to do with Precognition.

I didn't misrepresent the feat, genius. Sylvar was clearly portrayed as a blur to Nomi, hence why she killed the droid before Nomi could react.

It's actually just her lightsaber swing and all swings look like that in the comic. It's an art style choice to make them more dynamic.

Precognition isn't exclusively limited to someone attacking you - it's a glimpse into the future.Regardless, the point is, moving faster than a superhumanly fast being can react, is an impressive feat. I didn't realize this was difficult for you to grasp at first but hopefully you understand that and the actual mechanics of the Force a little better now.

Which Nomi was obviously not getting unless Jedi get flashes of the future from their allies swinging their lightsabers without danger towards themselves all the time.

@night4345: Nothing in that has anything to do with sight and everything to do with Precognition.

Can you read?

"You are different because you are stronger. You have powers. You know things in advance. You look at the closed door to your room, and you know it is about to open. You have fast reflexes. Others only dream of anticipating moments as you do, or being able to move so fast. In this way you and I are alike, Maul, except that my powers are much greater."

Superhuman speed plays as much a part as precognition in life as a Force user.

It's actually just her lightsaber swing and all swings look like that in the comic. It's an art style choice to make them more dynamic.

The art is actually kind of irrelevant given the part apart about Nomi not being able to react, but by all means, get hung up over the tiniest of details.

Which Nomi was obviously not getting unless Jedi get flashes of the future from their allies swinging their lightsabers without danger towards themselves all the time.

So you're now claiming that Nomi's precognition wasn't a factor in Sylvar moving faster than she can react?

I guess we're back to reflexes now.

@i_like_swords:

I think Leia's speed could have been misinterpreted, quite a lot.

Here we go....

Her running ten miles in a few seconds feat seems off. It relies on the notion that the ship was being swallowed up at a similar rate as the other fleet was swallowed, right?Well there's two things. One, Palpatine had lost control of the storm, so there's no way of knowing how different the speeds are between a controlled and uncontrolled storm.

Which is an appeal to ignorance. Who to say the speed of a Force Storm actually matters of Palpatine has control or what not? It sure didn't seem that way in Darth Rivan case - and he lost complete control of it. The burden of proof in on you since you are the one that made the claim, honestly. The Storm obviously was packing the same amount of power it always packed, seeing as how it casually tore through a ship that can race through space at lightspeed without Hyperspace, so what basis do you have to sit here and state that it was slower?

Reaching at it's finest to be honest.

Two, when her and Luke and flying away in a shuttle, quite a distance away, they're looking back on the remnants of the ship still being destroyed. Not sure what the math is, but for them to run to the hanger, start up a shuttle, and then fly a fair distance away, I would assume that they had more than "a few seconds to spare".

Even if they ran running 5 miles in a minute (which I doubt) is still vastly above the average Force Sensitive. Relin ran about 100 meters in a tick of a Crona and he's a pretty powerful Force sensitive.

As for her deflecting three or five thousand blaster bolts in the space of a couple of seconds... for one that speed is just unheard of,

Not really. People like Luke and Palpatine throw blows at relativistic speed/near relativistic speeds and the likes of Yoda, Caedus, Plagueis, etc, etc are capable of nearly matching these speeds in combat - and the ability to react to countless amounts of these blows. Hell, Luke and Abeloth was perceiving sh!t in nanoseconds, and that dwarfs blocking three to five thousands blaster bolts in a second.

and I think there's a reason for it; it was written from Han Solo, a non-enhanced being's, perspective.

Didn't seem like it to me....

Hence why he was baffled enough by the display of light to think there could be three or five thousand bolts in motion.

Where was it stated it was in Han's perspective? The quote made note that the exchange seemed to happen in slow-motion - Han sure as hell isn't perceiving a thing in that type of speed.

So yeah.. after getting those feats out of the picture Leia's speed is looking above average, but not much more than that.

Perceiving hypersonic projectile in slow-motion is far above the average Force sensitive....and that's what Solo did, sans the two feats in question.

@i_like_swords: Can you even read? Reaction through Precognition (which is what Palpatine was talking about) has nothing to do with perception. Moving fast has nothing to do with Maul's perceptions. Maybe Maul does have enhanced perceptions but there's no proof Nomi did or even if she did it was active at that time.

The art is actually kind of irrelevant given the part apart about Nomi not being able to react, but by all means, get hung up over the tiniest of details.

You were the one going on about how she was a blur to Nomi.

So you're now claiming that Nomi's precognition wasn't a factor in Sylvar moving faster than she can react?

Unless we're saying Force users have a passive glimpse into the future about everything, yes.

I guess we're back to reflexes now.

Sure.

@dccomicsrule2011:

Here we go....

...

Which is an appeal to ignorance. Who to say the speed of a Force Storm actually matters of Palpatine has control or what not?

I'd imagine there is something of a difference between Palpatine guiding the storm, and the storm taking it's own course, but I'm not feeling overly zealous about proving it one way or the other.

The burden of proof in on you since you are the one that made the claim, honestly. The Storm obviously was packing the same amount of power it always packed seeing as how it casually tore through a ship that can race through space at lightspeed without Hyperspace, so what basis do you have to sit here and state that it was slower?

Dude, who shoved something up your ass? Questioning the difference between a controlled and non-controlled Force storm isn't really all that ridiculous a notion. I wasn't questioning it's power, either, just it's speed.

Reaching at it's finest to be honest.

Not really, I've clearly just struck a nerve by even daring to question Leia's 00ber speed.

Even they ran running 5 miles in a minute (which I doubt) is still vastly above the average Force Sensitive. Relin ran about 100 meters in a tick of a Crona and he's a pretty powerful Force sensitive.

What's your basis for coming to that level of speed? I'm just curious is all. From my view of the feat I think 10 miles in a few seconds seems to be pushing it but I'll let you or Nova explain it better.

Not really. People like Luke and Palpatine throw blows at relativistic speeds

The two most powerful non-Mortis beings in the mythos. I'm not sure if they do, either.

and the likes of Yoda, Caedus, Plagueis, etc, etc are capable of nearly matching these speeds in combat

I don't think any of them have feats to suggest they could deflect 5000 blaster bolts in two or three seconds.

Hell, Luke and Abeloth was perceiving sh!t in nanoseconds, and that dwarves blocking five thousands blaster bolts in a second.

They have?

Didn't seem like it to me....

Where was it stated it was in Han's perspective? The quote made note that the exchange seemed to happen in slow-motion - Han sure as hell isn't perceiving a thing in that type of speed.

Actually seeing things in "slow motion" for dramatic effect isn't uncommon in novels for non-enhanced beings, recently read Dengar experiencing the world that way.

Anyway, my impression of the text was that it was written from Han's perspective.

As the wall crumpled, Han leapt backward, toward the door, hoping it was automated and would open for him. Leia drew and lit her lightsaber. Iella dived for the hole in the floor.

The exchange took place in what seemed like slow motion. Han's shoulders did not hit the door-he staggered back into the corridor. Leia's blade came up and deflected the first three or five thousand bolts from the droid's right arm.

Someone shot the droid three, four, five times in the chest-Han was surprised to see the blaster in his own hand, firing as fast as his finger could pull the trigger, his brain not figuring into the equation-and then his shoulder blades hit the passageway wall behind him, throwing his aim off.

Aim off. He couldn't hurt this thing by shooting it where a human would be hurt. But at a distance of three meters, he could hit anything he could see, including any symbol on a sabacc card.

He traversed his fire, letting muscle memory and reflex do the work. His blaster shots stitched a line acoss the droid's chest, down its arm, to the blaster embedded in its arm...

To the barrel...

Han's shot entered the barrel aperture and the lower portion of the right arm exploded. The laminanium armor of the forearm mostly contained the detonation. Han saw the composite skin split in places, the rents filling with fire, and felt a tear along his cheek as something grazed him.

The droid wasn't down, though. It raised its other arm...

Relieved of the burden of deflecting blaster shots, Leia stepped in and brought her lightsaber blade down on the arm, just above the elbow, where the armatures were thinnest. Her blow didn't cut through the arm, not immediately, but the force of her blow was enough to knock it sideways, and the arc of electricity emerging from it missed her by centimeters, plowing into the passageway wall above Han's head.

Then the left arm did come off at the elbow.

Han continued firing, spraying bolts at the droid's pho-toreceptors. The droid swung the remains of its right arm at Leia, a potentially deadly attack-it was strong enough to crush her skull, break her back. But she bent at the waist, allowing the blow to sweep harmlessly over her, and straightened, driving her blade up under the droid's ribiike chest armor.

The attack sheared through systems, causing sparks to emerge at both the top and bottom of the ribs, and her blade point entered the skull from below. The droid jittered in place for a moment, raised its arm for a second blow-and collapsed. Rather than have her lightsaber be yanked down by its weight, Leia deactivated the weapon, then reactivated it when the droid was clear.

---

Perceiving hypersonic projectile in slow-motion is far above the average Force sensitive....and that's what Solo did, sans the two feats in question.

I didn't mean the average Force sensitive, I meant the average Force user we use in battles. Someone like Ulic or Darth Maul having average speed, relative to this discussion.