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#1 Edited by lifeofvibe (3492 posts) - - Show Bio

The mutant legion vs the flash family

team roster

eobard thawn powers: drains youth can erase things out of excistes can time travel without the treadmill time manipulation able to freez time at will shapshifting (being able to change his age)

savitar

Wally west

Barry Allen

Bart Allen

jay Garrick

Jesse chambers

Max mercury

Johnny chambers

X's

VS the mutant legion

#2 Posted by lifeofvibe (3492 posts) - - Show Bio

the flash family wins right

#3 Posted by GhostRavage (8972 posts) - - Show Bio

the flash family wins right

LOL wtf man?

#4 Posted by Ratatat (697 posts) - - Show Bio

Legion turns into a reality warper and erases them all

#5 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

Legion stomps.

#6 Edited by Supermanwithatan01 (3730 posts) - - Show Bio

So Legion, a character that's warped the Dark Phoenix's reality and kept the 616 in a small box, vs the Flash family who on the vine are taunted for being overpowered and have 1/2 their powers ignored by trolls...?

Good fight.

Can Legion even be physically harmed? KO'd or Killed?

#7 Posted by lifeofvibe (3492 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: mabey if they think fast anoufe to prodicte the out come and slow him down and punch him out before he does anything that could do it

#8 Edited by Supermanwithatan01 (3730 posts) - - Show Bio

@lifeofvibe: It's very much dependent on whether Legion can be KO'd physically. If so, team Flash wins. If he can't be physically harmed, he's a reality warping, matter manipulating, "think up a power" multiple personality freak. He'd win unless the Flashes hid in the speedforce. Assuming morals do not apply they could probably kill him, KO him or Incapacitate his brain before he "think" of anything, but if they fail then he would as much of a threat as anyone could be.

#9 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

@lifeofvibe: It's very much dependent on whether Legion can be KO'd physically. If so, team Flash wins. If he can't be physically harmed, he's a reality warping, matter manipulating, "think up a power" multiple personality freak. He'd win unless the Flashes hid in the speedforce. Assuming morals do not apply they could probably kill him, KO him or Incapacitate his brain before he "think" of anything, but if they fail then he would as much of a threat as anyone could be.

Legion was frozen solid by a morals off Iceman. It did zero to stop Legion. So I assume he's passed the physical body stage and into more the meta-physical state.

#10 Posted by Diamondlifer1 (128 posts) - - Show Bio

Legion can manipulate, diminish, remove the speed force and then proceed to stomp the flash family with his numerous powers

#11 Posted by zr0c00l (856 posts) - - Show Bio

@diamondlifer1: but how fast can he do this? I dont know much about legion so im wondering does he have enhanced brain speed? Cause if not he cant stop the flashes from getting to him.

#12 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3730 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01 said:

@lifeofvibe: It's very much dependent on whether Legion can be KO'd physically. If so, team Flash wins. If he can't be physically harmed, he's a reality warping, matter manipulating, "think up a power" multiple personality freak. He'd win unless the Flashes hid in the speedforce. Assuming morals do not apply they could probably kill him, KO him or Incapacitate his brain before he "think" of anything, but if they fail then he would as much of a threat as anyone could be.

Legion was frozen solid by a morals off Iceman. It did zero to stop Legion. So I assume he's passed the physical body stage and into more the meta-physical state.

Well Wally could steal kinetic energy from Legions neurons but that's a morals off scenario. In that event, Wally would simply render him literally "thought-less" and leave him there or tear him a part. But thats a morals off battle and I'm not sure what this is. Legion basically surviving something from iceman that would have killed virtually anyone is impressive. Rather than if Legion could handle the Flashes initial onslaught before doing something offensively. I'd about messing with their molecules or warping them from reality, I'm not sure that'd work on Wally since twice before he was shown to be outside of that contention. Even though Geoff Johns ignored that.

#13 Posted by CheeseSticks (2484 posts) - - Show Bio

Legion godstomps

#14 Posted by DarkRaiden (7359 posts) - - Show Bio

Legion stomps. He's been a speedster before, has powers that steal souls, stop and manipulate time, can turn people to salt by a touch, can make clones by touch, adapts defensively to anything, is a reality warper and universal+ level being. He can't really lose.

#15 Posted by New_World_Order (13235 posts) - - Show Bio

Legion.

#16 Posted by dondave (37646 posts) - - Show Bio

Legion ftw

#17 Posted by antiwhipped (205 posts) - - Show Bio

Legion.

#18 Posted by venomoushatred1001 (12334 posts) - - Show Bio
#19 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (17527 posts) - - Show Bio

wally blitz :p

#20 Posted by Saren (25690 posts) - - Show Bio

Legion can and has been KO'd, and pretty much all of his uber powers aren't things he can access in character.

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#21 Posted by Immortal777 (7614 posts) - - Show Bio

If what CB says is true Flash family should win.

#22 Posted by Saren (25690 posts) - - Show Bio

Would CB lie to you?

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#23 Edited by Immortal777 (7614 posts) - - Show Bio

Nope lol.

#24 Edited by GhostRavage (8972 posts) - - Show Bio

Why nobody used the Speedsteal and stuff arguments? Humble question though.

#25 Posted by Dextersinister (6175 posts) - - Show Bio

Any speedster beats Legion, give the guy a few seconds of prep and it could be another story but his grasp over his powers yoyos.

#26 Posted by Bossmoss4l (242 posts) - - Show Bio

Legion ONLY wins this with prep, he doesn't even need that much prep, less than a minute and he'll pick a series of personalities in his head that could win this fight, Endgame who adapts to everything, Non-Newtonian Annie who was able to reflect any physical force back at it's origin... althooooough.

What is the Flash Families' defence against Telepathy? That's the ONLY power Legion has without any form of concentration or prep (His Backpack "buddy", Tyrranix the Abaminoid, is always on "Inner David"). With that he was able to stand up to the Red Skull infused with Professor X's brain's telepathy, and control multiple mutants of his own will Including Psylocke.

#27 Posted by Enzeru (2954 posts) - - Show Bio

What is the Flash Families' defence against Telepathy?

Thinking really fast :-|

#28 Edited by Dredeuced (5551 posts) - - Show Bio

Legion ONLY wins this with prep, he doesn't even need that much prep, less than a minute and he'll pick a series of personalities in his head that could win this fight, Endgame who adapts to everything, Non-Newtonian Annie who was able to reflect any physical force back at it's origin... althooooough.

What is the Flash Families' defence against Telepathy? That's the ONLY power Legion has without any form of concentration or prep (His Backpack "buddy", Tyrranix the Abaminoid, is always on "Inner David"). With that he was able to stand up to the Red Skull infused with Professor X's brain's telepathy, and control multiple mutants of his own will Including Psylocke.

Wally has also done similar things vs Grodd's telepathy. None of the other flash family has shown direct resistance to telepathy but Bart and Jay have both shown superspeed thinking.

#29 Posted by King_Namor (649 posts) - - Show Bio

Barry Allen can just travel back into time and punch his (legion's) mother in the womb it would be called a "Flash Abortion!"

#30 Posted by TDK_1997 (14899 posts) - - Show Bio

The Flash Family wins.

#31 Edited by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

the flashes lose badly. Legion has shown several powers, that he could use instantly to KO the flashes if they even touched him. Time/sync he can completely stop time. Styx- soul absorption via people touching him, He also has chain, which creates a copy of him for anyone who touches him He can also negate physical force being used against him as being shown when Frenzy tries to punch him and the force of her blow is redirect back at her. He also teleported an alien invasion force while 100's of light years away right to the x-men's front door. Plus his precognition and time manipulation are so that when he was on a date with blindfold telling her about event's to come and a threat that could destroy the x-men. He relays that he's already subdue the threat. There is nothing the flashes could do to him at this point.

#32 Edited by lifeofvibe (3492 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt1: your almost right exsept for one thing every thing you just said the flash family can also do that prodict the future before it ever happen

#33 Posted by lifeofvibe (3492 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt1: also wally might steal his kinected energy so that removes the idea of legion stomping them out with his own fist im serious at all the flash top form there omnipresent

#34 Edited by Saren (25690 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt1 said:

the flashes lose badly. Legion has shown several powers, that he could use instantly to KO the flashes if they even touched him. Time/sync he can completely stop time. Styx- soul absorption via people touching him, He also has chain, which creates a copy of him for anyone who touches him He can also negate physical force being used against him as being shown when Frenzy tries to punch him and the force of her blow is redirect back at her. He also teleported an alien invasion force while 100's of light years away right to the x-men's front door. Plus his precognition and time manipulation are so that when he was on a date with blindfold telling her about event's to come and a threat that could destroy the x-men. He relays that he's already subdue the threat. There is nothing the flashes could do to him at this point.

Time Sink and Styx are personalities that Legion dislikes because they're flat out evil, and one of them even tried killing his dad. He doesn't use them. Same goes for Chain. Everything else was done under conditions that aren't present here. Current Legion cannot use 99% of his powers if he doesn't feel confident enough ----- and he never feels confident unless someone "believes in him". Teleporting the Dire Wraiths happened because he was still riding off the confidence he gained from Karasu's trust (something he specifically mentions as giving him the mental strength required to take control of the personality in question). The precog feat on the moon (no time manipulation was involved) took place because his mind was fortified by Blindfold's love and trust. A few issues ago, there could have been an argument made for Legion, but now he's lost both Karasu and Blindfold thanks to his own actions (not so much for Karasu), so he's basically back to square one with nothing to draw confidence from.

Yeah, there's a lot of things Legion can do to beat the Flashes, but in character most of them aren't even remotely options.

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#35 Posted by dondave (37646 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmoss4l said:

Legion ONLY wins this with prep, he doesn't even need that much prep, less than a minute and he'll pick a series of personalities in his head that could win this fight, Endgame who adapts to everything, Non-Newtonian Annie who was able to reflect any physical force back at it's origin... althooooough.

What is the Flash Families' defence against Telepathy? That's the ONLY power Legion has without any form of concentration or prep (His Backpack "buddy", Tyrranix the Abaminoid, is always on "Inner David"). With that he was able to stand up to the Red Skull infused with Professor X's brain's telepathy, and control multiple mutants of his own will Including Psylocke.

Wally has also done similar things vs Grodd's telepathy. None of the other flash family has shown direct resistance to telepathy but Bart and Jay have both shown superspeed thinking.

Telepathy could still be an option if they didn't know he was a telepath and he surprised them

#36 Posted by lifeofvibe (3492 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: actely the constenly thinking fast

#37 Posted by dondave (37646 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: actely the constenly thinking fast

Not necessarily, they've been caught unaware from TP even when they're running fast

#38 Posted by lifeofvibe (3492 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: well of course there cought off gaurd if they wherent they would probely be overpowerd how do thinl mirror master gets the upper hand? but i will say this in this battle there constenly thinking fast okay

#39 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

I would go with Legion -- at present he is in control of his mind and so, is able to choose whatever personality to have done what he wants. While this can be argued as precarious, thing is, he has done more than not done and at present, does not require anyone to shore up his confidence in controlling his choice of mutations since defeating the most powerful one who was masquerading as his father. He is coming off a high so to speak and is in control of his powers.

#40 Edited by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane:show me where it's stated that he will never use these powers please? As far as confidence being a factor of his power use, it's a nice theory, but that's all it actually is. Legion doesn't need these people to use his power he can use them as he pleases, but i will admit it was a process for him to figure out how to use them. The monks were trying to help him do that (which is why he came up with the jailing system in his mind and the holding device and finger needles, however this landscape changed before depending on Legions mental state before it was a simple doll that gave access to his powers, with no motivations for confidence at all involved) and the death of Xavier pushed him sooner than what he was ready for, eventually he got the courage to take control. But to state that as the underlining means that he can only use his powers is ridiculous. Many superheros lack motivation to use their full powers or potential unless pushed to do so. Sentry , Blue Marvel, Thor, Silver Surfer, are all great examples of that (but of course i could list more), however people don't attribute the feats to the situation/confidence or motivator but the person doing the feats.

@lifeofvibe: sorry flash can't manipulate time, or steal soul via touch, or redirect force directly at them back at the attacker, or adapt to any situation, nor teleport several hundred lightyears instantly, create clones via touch, flash also doesn't have precognition either. Which powers were you stating the flash could do that legion could?

He can travel through time, flash can't manipulate time itself, even with the cosmic treadmill they would have to pick a specific point in time to travel to then start up the machine. And they can't just jump into the speedforce and go back. even if they could, Legion can do this faster by simply teleporting back as he did in Legion quest. Also i'd like to point out that Marvel time travel doesn't actually affect the present just create an alternate reality. So nothing the flashes did in the past would affect the current timeline that they were fighting Legion in at all.

#41 Edited by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: Also i would like to point out that you completely contradicted yourself in saying that he would never use time-sink or chain's abilities because he actually did in order to try and find endgame, styx, Susan Sunshine (or whatever her name is). He used time-sink to stop everyone in Paris for hours, and he used chain in order to fool styx and defeat him. So again your argument makes no sense at all when he actually has used these powers before.

#42 Posted by lifeofvibe (3492 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt1: they can do everything you said exsept steal souls or rederect force but every thing else they or at least 1 or 2 of them can look up the speed force and every thing you said (almost i think) will be put to shame

#43 Posted by Sylvain (1640 posts) - - Show Bio

Legion

#44 Posted by lifeofvibe (3492 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt1: come back but first look up professor zoom

#45 Edited by Saren (25690 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: Also i would like to point out that you completely contradicted yourself in saying that he would never use time-sink or chain's abilities because he actually did in order to try and find endgame, styx, Susan Sunshine (or whatever her name is). He used time-sink to stop everyone in Paris for hours, and he used chain in order to fool styx and defeat him. So again your argument makes no sense at all when he actually has used these powers before.

@citizenbane:show me where it's stated that he will never use these powers please?

Grouping these two things together......

Legion used Time-Sink and Chain in Lost Legions because the circumstances were dire: his father was in danger. He's also specifically said he prefers to use the more peaceful, manageable personalities as much as possible. None of those six are peaceful or manageable, when they escaped for the first time Legion specifically referred to them as "six of the worst". Under regular circumstances, he wouldn't be inclined to use them as per his own words. And anyway, you're missing out context as usual. Legion could only use those personalities (or any personalities) in that arc because he had an artificial level of control established via the command-device that Reed Richards and Doctor Nemesis built for him. He doesn't have that device any more.

It's also quite likely those personalities don't even exist any more. Spurrier retconned Legion into only possessing two hundred personalities in order to make some sense out of his powerset; previously in Carey's run, he had thousands of them and Styx was #666, Delphic was #1000 and something, etc. etc.

The monks were trying to help him do that (which is why he came up with the jailing system in his mind and the holding device and finger needles, however this landscape changed before depending on Legions mental state before it was a simple doll that gave access to his powers, with no motivations for confidence at all involved) and the death of Xavier pushed him sooner than what he was ready for, eventually he got the courage to take control.

The monks helped build the Qortex Complex in his head, and all of that ultimately made no difference because all of their efforts were undone by the psychic shock David experienced when his father died.

As far as confidence being a factor of his power use, it's a nice theory, but that's all it actually is. Legion doesn't need these people to use his power he can use them as he pleases, but i will admit it was a process for him to figure out how to use them.

I appreciate your attempts to make it seem like it's just my theory rather than established fact, but literally anyone who gives Legacy so much as a cursory reading can point out that your argument is fabricated nonsense.

Fact: Legion has specifically stated that he needs inner mental strength to use any of his major powers.

Fact: Legion could not use any of his powers in his fight against the X-Men until Karasu and Sojobo used their powers to fix his head.

Fact: The minute Blindfold removed Karasu and Sojobo from Legion's head, he was powerless again.

Fact: The instant Karasu asked Legion to save her and her brother, Legion's powers came back, and he outright states it's because someone finally believes in him.

Fact: Legion went through a gauntlet of his personalities and couldn't beat any of them, even the weakest ones, until he managed to gain a little confidence which allowed him to take over one of the weakest ones.

Fact: Stated twice in the same precognition showing you're referencing that Legion draws mental strength from Blindfold's trust that in turn allows him to use his powers.

Fact: Legion no longer has Karasu (hates him for killing her brother) or Blindfold (hates him for going power-crazy and mind-controlling the X-Men) to give him the mental strength he needs to use his powers.

It's not just my theory. Legion actually does need confidence to be a threat.

Sentry , Blue Marvel, Thor, Silver Surfer, are all great examples of that (but of course i could list more), however people don't attribute the feats to the situation/confidence or motivator but the person doing the feats.

Pointless filler. Skipping.

Go back and read Legacy, then come back here.

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#46 Posted by dondave (37646 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: Is X-Men Legacy still good? I bought the issues but haven't read any since issue 10

#47 Edited by Saren (25690 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Edited by JediXMan (30668 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane:

Glad to see your return to debating. It's nice to see good debaters for a change.

Moderator
#49 Edited by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: thanks for the history lesson but as you know it isn't necessary, i already knew everything you just stated. You are speculating a lot in this theory, which again is still just your take on the events that occurred. Fair warning when you use phases and words like "he wouldn't be inclined" or "it's also quite likely" you are just jumping to conclusion.

And your so called facts are also jumping to conclusions by further trying to read into what he's saying.

fact: Legion in several of his showings, that included his mental state has all shown his mind in different ways. As i stated before, it was the doll and dark space, and primitive holdings were the landscape in new mutants 20-25 when they were in legions head, after that post Bastian attack, his mental state had all of the personality in glass cages, age of x destroyed that holding area when Moira appeared and the tubes were shown destroyed as nemesis tried to kill the personalities. post age of x it was the arm device that kept them at bay, then after schism when Charles decided to take legion away/currently it was the prison like place which the monk helped him fashion and access his powers. All ways to help Legion cope and eventually control his powers on his own. The two devices that were shown to help him do that was the helmet in attack on Utopia which allowed him to pick one power at a time, and the arm device.

As far as Karasu and Sojobo: as i stated before it was a process, after Karasu and Sojobo was taken by the x-men he used his powers on his own did he not? yes he did. Just as your first fact states it depends on Legions Mental strength, which i never denied was true, however the context in which you are trying to use it in your theory stating the necessity of others to use his powers is just complete speculation. As we have seen, even if Legion's true personality is locked up as was the case in most of the New Mutants the personalities would simply take over his body and his powers would still be in place only his true personality wouldn't be in control.

As per the new X-men Legacy series, Blindfold is his love interest, i don't see how that isn't a motivation... but again you can say the same of any hero who has a love interest. Spiderman, Sentry, Hulk etc. there are countless instances of them tapping into powers and reserves they didn't tap into for their love interest. So again you are trying to draw on this common relationship as a reason to stifle Legion's powerset is quote ridiculous considering it's very common in all comics. In Battle forum i believe the rule is you use them at their best.

So unless it's stated that Legion doesn't have the confidence to be in control of his personalities or he is a previous more unstable mental state, he should be in his current state of mind.

#50 Posted by Bossmoss4l (242 posts) - - Show Bio

Darn, it's threads like these that make me wish I had a working scanner or some way to post panels of my digital issues.