Legion with all his powers versus Dark Phoenix with all of hers. Let's assume for the sake of the argument that DP can die a total of 2 times. Who wins? Use reasoning.
Ugh, watch the Phoenix fanboys pull the she cant be affected by reality warpers right out of there ass. Im going with Legion because he's really more powerful but people will start to cry about how Phoenix in DP state is uber god while Moira Mactaggart/TimeSkip (Legions personalities) aren't enough to hang.
@CitizenBane: I am still sticking with Dark Phoenix, because when it comes to phoenix i just love the potential they have shown. And to my knoweledge Jean has never lost a battle when Dark Phoenix was in full control.. so dark phoenix FTW!! but i am so damn sure there will be heaps of ppl voting for Legion, lets see what ppl have to say.
Ugh, watch the Phoenix fanboys pull the she cant be affected by reality warpers right out of there ass. Im going with Legion because he's really more powerful but people will start to cry about how Phoenix in DP state is uber god while Moira Mactaggart/TimeSkip (Legions personalities) aren't enough to hang.
Remember that other thread where I said Legion's warped 616 resurrected Jean as Dark Phoenix, and Buckshot corrected me that it was Rachel? I checked Age Of X again, and there's a secret files kind of thing at the back that says it was Jean and not Rachel.
@CitizenBane: I am still sticking with Dark Phoenix, because when it comes to phoenix i just love the potential they have shown. And to my knoweledge Jean has never lost a battle when Dark Phoenix was in full control.. so dark phoenix FTW!! but i am so damn sure there will be heaps of ppl voting for Legion, lets see what ppl have to say.
Thing is, Legion has replicated all of DP's feats. Jean held 616 in her hands? Legion stuck it in a box.
@CitizenBane: In the Age of X alpha they also talked about how Phoenix went on a rampage in some city IIRC. Moirra Mactaggart is way to much for Phoenix here. Wasnt I also vying with you on the that battle? Also he did pull in a psionic ghost of Rachel (I broguth this up I guess he didnt want to acknowledge it seeing as I am right) into the universe which left her body lying in a comotose state on some foreign planet. This was in Legacy after legion joined up
@CitizenBane: I am still sticking with Dark Phoenix, because when it comes to phoenix i just love the potential they have shown. And to my knoweledge Jean has never lost a battle when Dark Phoenix was in full control.. so dark phoenix FTW!! but i am so damn sure there will be heaps of ppl voting for Legion, lets see what ppl have to say.
Thing is, Legion has replicated all of DP's feats. Jean held 616 in her hands? Legion stuck it in a box.
No i get what u mean, legion is very impressive indeed but i still favor DP on the battle simply because, phoenix force that we are talking about and not the avatar itself, has way more potential then given credit for. But then again Legion has an awesome reality warping powers, and if that will affect DP or not is still debatable. Because if it was the phoenix force, the actual total phoenix force, its only second to LT making it significantly more powerful then Legion. Dp doesnt have the full powers of phoenix force like WPOTC but what powers DP lacks has never really been stated. Mostly i suppose, for it , it comes down to personal preference but like i admitted most ppl are going to vote for Legion, and rightfully so.
@CitizenBane: well dark phoenix has unlimited telepathic and telekinetic potential...legion has unlimited potential as well and has the versatility advantage...however none of his personalities/powersets grants him immunity to dark phoenix's powers...yeah he put reality in a box but phoenix wasn't actively fightning him so there no evidence to prove phoenix couldn't fight him actively...If legion has a telepathic immunity that can hold off attacks from phoenix than i will concede that he wins, until any one can prove other wise i'm leaning more towards dark phoenix....
@CitizenBane: I am still sticking with Dark Phoenix, because when it comes to phoenix i just love the potential they have shown. And to my knoweledge Jean has never lost a battle when Dark Phoenix was in full control.. so dark phoenix FTW!! but i am so damn sure there will be heaps of ppl voting for Legion, lets see what ppl have to say.
Thing is, Legion has replicated all of DP's feats. Jean held 616 in her hands? Legion stuck it in a box.
That was actually White Phoenix, which is stronger than Dark Phoenix.
despite her feats to be more lack luster than Legion, she has been described many times over to be at-least a universal buster and the single-most powerful psionic being to exist.. aside from that, the Watcher hinted that the Dark Phoenix possessed the power to make anything she thinks of into reality.. like what Jean mention during that story-arc, the universe is at the palm of her hands.. and for a moment, she was almost god.. iirc, Legion only managed to pull of a psionic manifestation of Rachel during Age of X which is impressive yet Rachel herself made a far more impressive feat when she took Scott and Jean's consciousness and took them across space and time to protect the then infant Cable.. and yes, Phoenix is still to be proven to be capable of being affected by reality warping.. even if Legion has telepathic immunity, Dark Phoenix still has so many arsenal under her sleeve ranging from telekinetic godhood to reality warping.. Legion only managed to destroy the supposed "Elder Gods" of Limbo.. Belasco, Limbo's former ruler serves the N'Garai who in turn are just mere creations of the most powerful and a true Elder God, Chthon who in turn gave power to the Scarlet Witch, who's power cannot affect Jean when united with the Phoenix who proved to undo her "curse".. i have to admit Legion is powerful, but Jean as DP is on a cosmic level.. also, if DP is indeed immune to reality warping like most feats suggest, then what would stop her from removing Legion's mutant gene as seen when the Beast removed Wolverine's mutant gene and ultimately killed him..
despite her feats to be more lack luster than Legion, she has been described many times over to be at-least a universal buster and the single-most powerful psionic being to exist.. aside from that, the Watcher hinted that the Dark Phoenix possessed the power to make anything she thinks of into reality.. like what Jean mention during that story-arc, the universe is at the palm of her hands.. and for a moment, she was almost god.. iirc, Legion only managed to pull of a psionic manifestation of Rachel during Age of X which is impressive yet Rachel herself made a far more impressive feat when she took Scott and Jean's consciousness and took them across space and time to protect the then infant Cable.. and yes, Phoenix is still to be proven to be capable of being affected by reality warping.. even if Legion has telepathic immunity, Dark Phoenix still has so many arsenal under her sleeve ranging from telekinetic godhood to reality warping.. Legion only managed to destroy the supposed "Elder Gods" of Limbo.. Belasco, Limbo's former ruler serves the N'Garai who in turn are just mere creations of the most powerful and a true Elder God, Chthon who in turn gave power to the Scarlet Witch, who's power cannot affect Jean when united with the Phoenix who proved to undo her "curse".. i have to admit Legion is powerful, but Jean as DP is on a cosmic level.. also, if DP is indeed immune to reality warping like most feats suggest, then what would stop her from removing Legion's mutant gene as seen when the Beast removed Wolverine's mutant gene and ultimately killed him..
Nate Grey has the same psionic output as Dark Phoenix. And Legion has held 616 in his hands as well. That was not a psionic manifestation of Rachel. It was Jean as the Dark Phoenix, there is a secret-files thing at the end of Age Of X that says it was Jean. So Legion was able to warp 616 to the point where he resurrected DP. Which means DP isn't immune to his warping. And Legion was able to overwrite HOM Wanda's warping when he gave Chamber his powers back. So I doubt DP could just warp his gene out, not when she's been shown to be not immune to his warping.
Nate Grey has the same psionic output as Dark Phoenix. And Legion has held 616 in his hands as well. That was not a psionic manifestation of Rachel. It was Jean as the Dark Phoenix, there is a secret-files thing at the end of Age Of X that says it was Jean. So Legion was able to warp 616 to the point where he resurrected DP. Which means DP isn't immune to his warping. And Legion was able to overwrite HOM Wanda's warping when he gave Chamber his powers back. So I doubt DP could just warp his gene out, not when she's been shown to be not immune to his warping.
Nate Grey may have bee described to possess psionic output that can rival the Dark Phoenix but it does not necessarily mean he possess as the same skills and powers as she does.. Nate Grey may have been a very powerful telekinetic, but he does not possess the power of reality warping, etc like Dark Phoenix.. Legion created an alternate reality and kept the true 616 reality in a box.. it is very much different from what Wanda did much more on what Jean did as WPOTC.. i don't recall ever being said that it was Jean Grey.. the Phoenix there used the code-name Revenant.. and the secret files says something like this..
again, she was suspected of being Jean Grey but it proved to be otherwise.. it was Rachel Summers who before Age of X tried to make psychic contact with either Charles or Emma.. but during that time, Legion who disguised himself as Moira warped reality, thus taking Rachel's consciousness which resulted into the creation of Revenant.. that is why she mentioned that she got lost on her way home and she did not look like herself.. even it was the real Jean Grey that was killed in Albany back then, it is unnecessary to say that this is the same Jean Grey who possessed the Phoenix Force.. for in this reality, Jean never piloted the ship that was crashing on Earth and never made contact with the PF which resulted to the whole Dark Phoenix Saga scenario.. having the Phoenix Raptor while using her powers doesn't automatically mean she possessed the PF as Jean's psionic signature have manifested may times before as a Phoenix raptor, same goes for Nate Grey..
this doesn't prove anything that DP or the PF itself is not immune to reality warping.. Jean and the PF have many time proved themselves to be immune to such such as when the Scarlet Witch created the HoM.. Jean even with just an essence of herself in a holoemphatic crystal managed to protect Rachel from the powers of the Scarlet Witch, which i think showed a far more impressive feat than Legion.. there have been many individual who managed to restore a mutants power after M-Day such as the High Evolutionary in magneto's case.. the true test was to undo Wanda's curse of NO MORE MUTANTS across countless universes, and only the PF managed to do so with the birth of the mutant messiah.. Wanda Maximoff herself states that she can't undo her "NO MORE MUTANT" curse, but she is still capable to re-powering former mutants.. Legion only managed to re-power another mutant, i doubt any mutant can do that to himself when he has lost his powers..
despite her feats to be more lack luster than Legion, she has been described many times over to be at-least a universal buster and the single-most powerful psionic being to exist.. aside from that, the Watcher hinted that the Dark Phoenix possessed the power to make anything she thinks of into reality.. like what Jean mention during that story-arc, the universe is at the palm of her hands.. and for a moment, she was almost god.. iirc, Legion only managed to pull of a psionic manifestation of Rachel during Age of X which is impressive yet Rachel herself made a far more impressive feat when she took Scott and Jean's consciousness and took them across space and time to protect the then infant Cable.. and yes, Phoenix is still to be proven to be capable of being affected by reality warping.. even if Legion has telepathic immunity, Dark Phoenix still has so many arsenal under her sleeve ranging from telekinetic godhood to reality warping.. Legion only managed to destroy the supposed "Elder Gods" of Limbo.. Belasco, Limbo's former ruler serves the N'Garai who in turn are just mere creations of the most powerful and a true Elder God, Chthon who in turn gave power to the Scarlet Witch, who's power cannot affect Jean when united with the Phoenix who proved to undo her "curse".. i have to admit Legion is powerful, but Jean as DP is on a cosmic level.. also, if DP is indeed immune to reality warping like most feats suggest, then what would stop her from removing Legion's mutant gene as seen when the Beast removed Wolverine's mutant gene and ultimately killed him..
This really sounds like a bunch of hypotheticals vs an actual feat. You even said it your self that her feats are more lackluster and she's been only described as extremely powerful. So was is the Hulk. Legion did pull in Phoenix as in Jean Grey into his universe. Jean not being affected by Wanda I honestly cant elaborate on but wasnt she dead at the time? Pretty much sitting outside of the multiverse? I have two responses to that and there not fact they are opinion but there are pretty sensible. 1. Phoenix wasnt affected just like the same way Wolverine or Prof X or other mutants wasn't affected. 2. Wanda's spell only worked on her universe and I hear that it had a multiversal ripple but I have yet to see such a thing. Also whats stopping Legion to using Time skip to kill Phoenix? Seems like Xorn didnt have an issue killing her.
Nate Grey has the same psionic output as Dark Phoenix. And Legion has held 616 in his hands as well. That was not a psionic manifestation of Rachel. It was Jean as the Dark Phoenix, there is a secret-files thing at the end of Age Of X that says it was Jean. So Legion was able to warp 616 to the point where he resurrected DP. Which means DP isn't immune to his warping. And Legion was able to overwrite HOM Wanda's warping when he gave Chamber his powers back. So I doubt DP could just warp his gene out, not when she's been shown to be not immune to his warping.
Nate Grey may have bee described to possess psionic output that can rival the Dark Phoenix but it does not necessarily mean he possess as the same skills and powers as she does.. Nate Grey may have been a very powerful telekinetic, but he does not possess the power of reality warping, etc like Dark Phoenix.. Legion created an alternate reality and kept the true 616 reality in a box.. it is very much different from what Wanda did much more on what Jean did as WPOTC.. i don't recall ever being said that it was Jean Grey.. the Phoenix there used the code-name Revenant.. and the secret files says something like this..
again, she was suspected of being Jean Grey but it proved to be otherwise.. it was Rachel Summers who before Age of X tried to make psychic contact with either Charles or Emma.. but during that time, Legion who disguised himself as Moira warped reality, thus taking Rachel's consciousness which resulted into the creation of Revenant.. that is why she mentioned that she got lost on her way home and she did not look like herself.. even it was the real Jean Grey that was killed in Albany back then, it is unnecessary to say that this is the same Jean Grey who possessed the Phoenix Force.. for in this reality, Jean never piloted the ship that was crashing on Earth and never made contact with the PF which resulted to the whole Dark Phoenix Saga scenario.. having the Phoenix Raptor while using her powers doesn't automatically mean she possessed the PF as Jean's psionic signature have manifested may times before as a Phoenix raptor, same goes for Nate Grey..
this doesn't prove anything that DP or the PF itself is not immune to reality warping.. Jean and the PF have many time proved themselves to be immune to such such as when the Scarlet Witch created the HoM.. Jean even with just an essence of herself in a holoemphatic crystal managed to protect Rachel from the powers of the Scarlet Witch, which i think showed a far more impressive feat than Legion.. there have been many individual who managed to restore a mutants power after M-Day such as the High Evolutionary in magneto's case.. the true test was to undo Wanda's curse of NO MORE MUTANTS across countless universes, and only the PF managed to do so with the birth of the mutant messiah.. Wanda Maximoff herself states that she can't undo her "NO MORE MUTANT" curse, but she is still capable to re-powering former mutants.. Legion only managed to re-power another mutant, i doubt any mutant can do that to himself when he has lost his powers..
Nate did break apart the universe and kept it in a box and used only a small portion to work with. Also looking at your comment this seems as if you kinda are nit picking at this whole Dark Phoenix thing if it's Jean. If it's suspected of being Jean and it was said to be the phoenix, well tada. Writers over look minor things sometimes such ACTUALLY HAVING TO WRITE THIS IS TRUE OR NOT. I want to see the Phoenix thing also as I am curious about that. Magneto's case was kinda a plot thingy (he wanted to gain his powers back to be a mutant and join the X men why would you have one of your biggest characters written off like that?) and even then High Evolutionary said that it was a highly dangerous and ill advised procedure. Wanda while she is uncapable of undoing the NO MORE MUTANT thing is kinda stupid. So she is capable of repowering former mutants but not undoing it? What the hell contradiction much? Hope seems like waaaay to much hype. Mesiah my ass. Also we have still yet to see if she is the messiah or if Bishop is right.
Off Topic: Hope sucks I wished they kept Cable the messiah
Edit: I said Nate first word, I mean Legion whoops
This really sounds like a bunch of hypotheticals vs an actual feat. You even said it your self that her feats are more lackluster and she's been only described as extremely powerful. So was is the Hulk. Legion did pull in Phoenix as in Jean Grey into his universe. Jean not being affected by Wanda I honestly cant elaborate on but wasnt she dead at the time? Pretty much sitting outside of the multiverse? I have two responses to that and there not fact they are opinion but there are pretty sensible. 1. Phoenix wasnt affected just like the same way Wolverine or Prof X or other mutants wasn't affected. 2. Wanda's spell only worked on her universe and I hear that it had a multiversal ripple but I have yet to see such a thing. Also whats stopping Legion to using Time skip to kill Phoenix? Seems like Xorn didnt have an issue killing her.
well, the absence of proof is not the proof of absence.. DP was not given the chance to exercise her full power during the Dark Phoenix Saga.. but in an alternate reality, DP did actually destroy a universe.. other may not count that feat, but it only shows the possible extent of her powers if thing things did not turn out as they did.. he did pull Jean Grey, but that Jean Grey was not given the chance to become Phoenix as the time-line did not permit such.. so basically, this is not a PF powered Jean Grey, aside from her costume and the Phoenix Raptor she manifested, nothing supports such claim.. that is why it was later revealed that the Phoenix-like being on that universe was actually Rachel.. yes, Jean was dead during the entire HoM or rather residing in a higher plane of reality.. but Jean's essence did protect her daughter..
1. everyone who resided in Earth 616 was affected.. one possible theory is that Wanda's initial warp did not go far beyond 616.. but on her final spell, she basically warped reality on a much grander scale.. the number of mutants who retained their powers is not really a factor, the important thing is Wanda got what she wanted, and that is no more mutants..
2. Wanda's intial warping of 616 when she did the HoM only affected her universe.. that is why Roma and Saturnyne was willing to destroy the 616 universe as it became a cancer to the omniverse.. Wanda's final spell actually affected more than just a single universe as evidence in Endangered Species where every single alternate version of Beast sought to undo the Scarlet Witch's curse.. Legion can indeed time-skip and kill Jean, but as 616's Jean has permanently created a bond with the PF, which resides beyond time and space and into the center of creation itself.. the PF can easily revive Jean and alter time-lines as well.. Xorn only managed to kill Jean because it was all pre-ordained.. Jean needed to die in order to be reborn 150 years into the future to prevent the horrific fate of that time-line.. as what Jean said it herself, everything was a coordinated disinfection..
Nate did break apart the universe and kept it in a box and used only a small portion to work with. Also looking at your comment this seems as if you kinda are nit picking at this whole Dark Phoenix thing if it's Jean. If it's suspected of being Jean and it was said to be the phoenix, well tada. Writers over look minor things sometimes such ACTUALLY HAVING TO WRITE THIS IS TRUE OR NOT. I want to see the Phoenix thing also as I am curious about that. Magneto's case was kinda a plot thingy (he wanted to gain his powers back to be a mutant and join the X men why would you have one of your biggest characters written off like that?) and even then High Evolutionary said that it was a highly dangerous and ill advised procedure. Wanda while she is uncapable of undoing the NO MORE MUTANT thing is kinda stupid. So she is capable of repowering former mutants but not undoing it? What the hell contradiction much? Hope seems like waaaay to much hype. Mesiah my ass. Also we have still yet to see if she is the messiah or if Bishop is right.
Off Topic: Hope sucks I wished they kept Cable the messiah
Edit: I said Nate first word, I mean Legion whoops
Legion created another timeline and kept the original in a box.. Wanda re-wrote the entire time-line.. during HoM, there was no earth 616 and everything we know about Marvel was completely altered.. i'm not really nit picking, i'm just being theoretical and factual at the same time.. Jean even without the PF has been described ultra powerful.. during the AoA, Dark Beast claimed that Jean goes beyond mutant to a new category even though the jean Grey of this reality never truly made contact with the PF.. i think that is why they entered Rachel in the following scenario.. yes, magneto cases was a bit of a plot, but still the fact exist that there are being capable of re-powering former mutants and it doesn't take an extremely powerful mutant with reality altering powers to do such.. as for Wanda, there has always been a bit of irregularity with her powers.. in her bio in mystic arcana, i believe this was due to her mutant/mystic heritage.. as powerful as her Chaos Magic is, her natural probability altering mutant powers makes things a bit unpredictable.. also, re-powering is different from undoing a curse birthed out of pain and suffering.. Hope was just the tool which ultimately broke Wanda's spell of NO MORE MUTANTS.. her birth ended the reign of the supposed no more mutant birth proclamation.. whether she is truly the savior or the destroy is not part of her role as the one who reactivated the X-Gene..
This really sounds like a bunch of hypotheticals vs an actual feat. You even said it your self that her feats are more lackluster and she's been only described as extremely powerful. So was is the Hulk. Legion did pull in Phoenix as in Jean Grey into his universe. Jean not being affected by Wanda I honestly cant elaborate on but wasnt she dead at the time? Pretty much sitting outside of the multiverse? I have two responses to that and there not fact they are opinion but there are pretty sensible. 1. Phoenix wasnt affected just like the same way Wolverine or Prof X or other mutants wasn't affected. 2. Wanda's spell only worked on her universe and I hear that it had a multiversal ripple but I have yet to see such a thing. Also whats stopping Legion to using Time skip to kill Phoenix? Seems like Xorn didnt have an issue killing her.
well, the absence of proof is not the proof of absence.. DP was not given the chance to exercise her full power during the Dark Phoenix Saga.. but in an alternate reality, DP did actually destroy a universe.. other may not count that feat, but it only shows the possible extent of her powers if thing things did not turn out as they did.. he did pull Jean Grey, but that Jean Grey was not given the chance to become Phoenix as the time-line did not permit such.. so basically, this is not a PF powered Jean Grey, aside from her costume and the Phoenix Raptor she manifested, nothing supports such claim.. that is why it was later revealed that the Phoenix-like being on that universe was actually Rachel.. yes, Jean was dead during the entire HoM or rather residing in a higher plane of reality.. but Jean's essence did protect her daughter..
1. everyone who resided in Earth 616 was affected.. one possible theory is that Wanda's initial warp did not go far beyond 616.. but on her final spell, she basically warped reality on a much grander scale.. the number of mutants who retained their powers is not really a factor, the important thing is Wanda got what she wanted, and that is no more mutants..
2. Wanda's intial warping of 616 when she did the HoM only affected her universe.. that is why Roma and Saturnyne was willing to destroy the 616 universe as it became a cancer to the omniverse.. Wanda's final spell actually affected more than just a single universe as evidence in Endangered Species where every single alternate version of Beast sought to undo the Scarlet Witch's curse.. Legion can indeed time-skip and kill Jean, but as 616's Jean has permanently created a bond with the PF, which resides beyond time and space and into the center of creation itself.. the PF can easily revive Jean and alter time-lines as well.. Xorn only managed to kill Jean because it was all pre-ordained.. Jean needed to die in order to be reborn 150 years into the future to prevent the horrific fate of that time-line.. as what Jean said it herself, everything was a coordinated disinfection..
Thats absurd, just say it was DP Jean Grey and let get on with our lives. It seems like such an ill argument. Also Jean protecting Rachel seems more of a Phoenix thing not a Jean thing (I know people say that there one in the same but hopefully you'll see it as I do and that Phoenix will always want to be Jean Grey but Jean Grey at a time did not want to be phoenix but being as the phoenix is the phoenix she chose Jean as the avatar and told her to shut the hell up and deal with it)
1. I have yet to see how it actually affected Mutants in other realities/continuities though. Ultimate universe still seems to have them but then again they are not raditional mutants they are gov. projects from what I heard.
2. I never knew about the Beast thing but then again that could also just coincide with Beast being Beast and realizing that Wanda is a cancer. I dont think plot devices work in battle forums such as resurrections. So her dying to Time Skip is a possibility. If plot thingies were legal than Immortal Man or Mr. Immortal (guy in Marvel Universe) would be the ultimate character to fight against seeing as nothing can ultimatly kill him. He apparently exists outside of Death and The Phoenix allowing him always to comeback
Also are you Samuel Jackson? "the absence of proof is not the proof of absence" lol pulp fiction
future to prevent the horrific fate of that time-line.. as what Jean said it herself, everything was a coordinated disinfection..
Thats absurd, just say it was DP Jean Grey and let get on with our lives. It seems like such an ill argument. Also Jean protecting Rachel seems more of a Phoenix thing not a Jean thing (I know people say that there one in the same but hopefully you'll see it as I do and that Phoenix will always want to be Jean Grey but Jean Grey at a time did not want to be phoenix but being as the phoenix is the phoenix she chose Jean as the avatar and told her to shut the hell up and deal with it)
1. I have yet to see how it actually affected Mutants in other realities/continuities though. Ultimate universe still seems to have them but then again they are not raditional mutants they are gov. projects from what I heard.
2. I never knew about the Beast thing but then again that could also just coincide with Beast being Beast and realizing that Wanda is a cancer. I dont think plot devices work in battle forums such as resurrections. So her dying to Time Skip is a possibility. If plot thingies were legal than Immortal Man or Mr. Immortal (guy in Marvel Universe) would be the ultimate character to fight against seeing as nothing can ultimatly kill him. He apparently exists outside of Death and The Phoenix allowing him always to comeback
Also are you Samuel Jackson? "the absence of proof is not the proof of absence" lol pulp fiction
well, that would be ignoring much important infos and facts.. but anyways i do agree that Jean sometimes doesn't agree with what the Phoenix wants..
1. it is true that there were still tons of thousands even millions in alternate Earths who retained their powers.. actually, in essence, Wanda's spell is not about de-powering mutants, its about permanently erasing the mutant race.. so even if there are billions of mutant activity in the present yet there are no more mutant births, then the mutant race is good as dead.. that is the true essence of Wanda's curse.. again, that was what Beast and Dark Beast sought to figure out.. its not how to re-power mutants, but to re-activate the deleted mutant genes..
2. well Wanda is not the cancer but rather, what Wanda did.. so what happened is that the entire 616 universe became a cancer to the omniverse.. well, resurrections is not really a plot device most of the time.. Legion is like Morgan le fay in a way, she can go back in time and kill anyone while they are helpless.. the thing is the Phoenix is the amalgamation of both life and death.. such things are really complicated..
no.. i just happened to remember that quote all of a sudden.. lolz..
@lord_oraculous016: I have a scan that says it was Jean as the Dark Phoenix, with a picture of her too. I'm at college right now, I'll upload it to this thread when I get home.
@lord_oraculous016: This is the scan I was talking about. Excuse the size, as I only have the scans of Age Of X and not the trade itself. If it's hard to read, it says "The mutant abilities of a young woman named Jean Grey manifest in the form of an explosive fiery phoenix that immolates everything in it's path. The city of Albany, New York is decimated, leaving 600,000 dead."
@lord_oraculous016: This is the scan I was talking about. Excuse the size, as I only have the scans of Age Of X and not the trade itself. If it's hard to read, it says "The mutant abilities of a young woman named Jean Grey manifest in the form of an explosive fiery phoenix that immolates everything in it's path. The city of Albany, New York is decimated, leaving 600,000 dead."
are't the events of Age of X things that happened after this happened? was it ever really done or just talked about from a historical standpoint, as to why things went down in that reality the way they did? because it all seemed like a flashback and just historical docs (the Jean/Albany thing) which is even more proof that he did not resurrect Jean at all and just altered memories of all involved. Even still it says Jean Grey because Legion wanted it to be Jean, in the end it was Rachel who was caught in the warp, as Jean is in a place where reality warps can't touch her. per the events of the Chaoswave. What he did is no different than what Franklin did when he created a pocket universe that had Galactus in it, that was not the real Galactus only a reality warpers dream of him.
@lord_oraculous016: This is the scan I was talking about. Excuse the size, as I only have the scans of Age Of X and not the trade itself. If it's hard to read, it says "The mutant abilities of a young woman named Jean Grey manifest in the form of an explosive fiery phoenix that immolates everything in it's path. The city of Albany, New York is decimated, leaving 600,000 dead."
are't the events of Age of X things that happened after this happened? was it ever really done or just talked about from a historical standpoint, as to why things went down in that reality the way they did? because it all seemed like a flashback and just historical docs (the Jean/Albany thing) which is even more proof that he did not resurrect Jean at all and just altered memories of all involved. Even still it says Jean Grey because Legion wanted it to be Jean, in the end it was Rachel who was caught in the warp, as Jean is in a place where reality warps can't touch her. per the events of the Chaoswave. What he did is no different than what Franklin did when he created a pocket universe that had Galactus in it, that was not the real Galactus only a reality warpers dream of him.
Age Of X happens because of the Albany incident. There are TV reports, newspaper articles and so on about it, plus the Age Of X Avengers talk about it. So it's not just a simple matter of altering memories, not when there are pictures and videos of the incident in that reality. And why are you saying it was Jean and not Rachel? How do you know Jean can't be affected by X's warping?
@lord_oraculous016: This is the scan I was talking about. Excuse the size, as I only have the scans of Age Of X and not the trade itself. If it's hard to read, it says "The mutant abilities of a young woman named Jean Grey manifest in the form of an explosive fiery phoenix that immolates everything in it's path. The city of Albany, New York is decimated, leaving 600,000 dead."
are't the events of Age of X things that happened after this happened? was it ever really done or just talked about from a historical standpoint, as to why things went down in that reality the way they did? because it all seemed like a flashback and just historical docs (the Jean/Albany thing) which is even more proof that he did not resurrect Jean at all and just altered memories of all involved. Even still it says Jean Grey because Legion wanted it to be Jean, in the end it was Rachel who was caught in the warp, as Jean is in a place where reality warps can't touch her. per the events of the Chaoswave. What he did is no different than what Franklin did when he created a pocket universe that had Galactus in it, that was not the real Galactus only a reality warpers dream of him.
Age Of X happens because of the Albany incident. There are TV reports, newspaper articles and so on about it, plus the Age Of X Avengers talk about it. So it's not just a simple matter of altering memories, not when there are pictures and videos of the incident in that reality. And why are you saying it was Jean and not Rachel? How do you know Jean can't be affected by X's warping?
Like I said if he altered present reality to fit his needs that means he would have had to alter the way everybody remembered the past, the way Wanda did in HOM, but it was proved that even that reaity warp only physically altered the present, as Rachel was able to see beneath it and see the true past of reality, the same way she knew something was not right about this present reality. It is every similar to what Franklin did, he did not create Heroes Reborn universe from beginning to end, he just created it, everything that happened to everybody in the "past" was rewritten in their minds according to the new present they were in. He/X only warped reality not time, because the last time he altered the history of 616 it created a massive paradox, which meant Jean never became Phoenix and never sealed the M'Kraan crystal thus ending all reality as a result, in 616 Jean has to go through this or M'Kraan will have never been sealed, according to his that never happened which would have made Age of X just a "dangerous" to all that is as AoA was, and clearly is not the case. He is a reality warper create news reports to suite his needs is not beyond his power. The being that was seen after this Albany incident that everybody thought must have been Jean returned was Rachel, the Jean that destroyed Albany was nothing more than a false created to justify the new present, there is no proof that Jean was ever in this reality outside of dreamed up news reports and false memories of those present in this altered present. Even if these events happened that is still not proof of Jean, even the Phoenix was confused when it saw Rachels astral form and thought it was Jean Grey when it first encountered Rachel, this due to their near identical psi sigs. Because she is outside of reality in the White Hot Room, the reality altering force of the chaoswave was wrecking the "omniverse" and could not reach the White Hot Room.
@LordOfAllHumans: X appeared for the first time only in AoX, she was never around before that. Where does it say that the Phoenix in AoX was Rachel? Scans?
@LordOfAllHumans: X appeared for the first time only in AoX, she was never around before that. Where does it say that the Phoenix in AoX was Rachel? Scans?
what the are talking about? Revanet was Rachel, people assumed it was Jean/Phoenix returned, turns out it was not. outside of news reports from a false reality what proof do you have that it was Jean...scans? I don't believe it happened at all so it being Rachel before the point of Revanent is irrelevant. The proof is there was no expansion wave blinking reality in and out of existence which would have happened in 616 because in 616 regardless of what happened on Earth, D'ken would have still gone after the M'Kraan crystal, breached it and set off the chain of events that was destroying all that is. in 616, explained by one of the Guardians of the Crystal (Jahf) Jean must travel in the shuttle, Phoenix must rise as a result or there would have been nothing to stop the crystal from destroying everything, this was not happening, must mean 616s past was left intact.
@LordOfAllHumans: X appeared for the first time only in AoX, she was never around before that. Where does it say that the Phoenix in AoX was Rachel? Scans?
what the are talking about? Revanet was Rachel, people assumed it was Jean/Phoenix returned, turns out it was not. outside of news reports from a false reality what proof do you have that it was Jean...scans? I don't believe it happened at all so it being Rachel before the point of Revanent is irrelevant. The proof is there was no expansion wave blinking reality in and out of existence which would have happened in 616 because in 616 regardless of what happened on Earth, D'ken would have still gone after the M'Kraan crystal, breached it and set off the chain of events that was destroying all that is. in 616, explained by one of the Guardians of the Crystal (Jahf) Jean must travel in the shuttle, Phoenix must rise as a result or there would have been nothing to stop the crystal from destroying everything, this was not happening, must mean 616s past was left intact.
I've already posted a scan that says it was Jean. All you've offered are conjectures and theories about Legion wiping everyone's minds about Revenant, with nothing to back that. Show me a scan that says it was Rachel or any scan suggesting it was Rachel.
@LordOfAllHumans: X appeared for the first time only in AoX, she was never around before that. Where does it say that the Phoenix in AoX was Rachel? Scans?
If he indeed altered all of history then why oh why would Rachel be alerted to something being amiss? Why is she in such a state of confusion, why does she even exist at all, in the 616 timeline the events that led to Rachel even coming to the past was the plot to kill Kelly, in this reality, that did not seem to happen as Albany was behind the agenda to eradicate mutants in "the future" not the death of Senator Kelly. If he altered all of 616 past, and present, how did Rachel end up in space trying to contact the Xmen if according to the new "universe" she would have never even come to that reality but another that mirrored the events of the true 616.
@LordOfAllHumans: X appeared for the first time only in AoX, she was never around before that. Where does it say that the Phoenix in AoX was Rachel? Scans?
If he indeed altered all of history then why oh why would Rachel be alerted to something being amiss? Why is she in such a state of confusion, why does she even exist at all, in the 616 timeline the events that led to Rachel even coming to the past was the plot to kill Kelly, in this reality, that did not seem to happen as Albany was behind the agenda to eradicate mutants in "the future" not the death of Senator Kelly.
Because X herself said that it was her first attempt at warping, so there were errors. Rachel was one of them. She later stated that she had perfected her ability and could recreate 616 flawlessly, but Legion absorbed her before she did.
@LordOfAllHumans: X appeared for the first time only in AoX, she was never around before that. Where does it say that the Phoenix in AoX was Rachel? Scans?
what the are talking about? Revanet was Rachel, people assumed it was Jean/Phoenix returned, turns out it was not. outside of news reports from a false reality what proof do you have that it was Jean...scans? I don't believe it happened at all so it being Rachel before the point of Revanent is irrelevant. The proof is there was no expansion wave blinking reality in and out of existence which would have happened in 616 because in 616 regardless of what happened on Earth, D'ken would have still gone after the M'Kraan crystal, breached it and set off the chain of events that was destroying all that is. in 616, explained by one of the Guardians of the Crystal (Jahf) Jean must travel in the shuttle, Phoenix must rise as a result or there would have been nothing to stop the crystal from destroying everything, this was not happening, must mean 616s past was left intact.
I've already posted a scan that says it was Jean. All you've offered are conjectures and theories about Legion wiping everyone's minds about Revenant, with nothing to back that. Show me a scan that says it was Rachel or any scan suggesting it was Rachel.
you have posted a scan that is basically a reprint of the news reports, it is a scan of what supposedly led to the events that Age of X was created for. your scans lack anything substantial as far as 616 is concerned, according to a being that resides somewhere in the M'Kraan crystal and can watch all points of reality because of it, if Jean did not take that shuttle ride, the M'Kraan crystal would have destroyed all that is because there would have been not Phoenix/Jean to stop it. If the manifestation of her power is what set off the events of that altered reality then that means Kitty in Rachels would have not sent her to the past of 616 but to the past of another reality where senator Kelly was going to be assassinated because clearly this did not happen in this "616". So now explain to me if he altered the true past and not just the present creating a false past (the way Wanda did) how did Rachel get there? Because the last time he altered the true past it created a reality where Rachels presence was not needed and would have not even existed because the M'Kraan would have never been sealed to begin with.
Legion... And if anyone says different thing I am open for looking on scan in which DP showed universal level power.
She is the nexus of creation....
She is all that was and ever will be......
She is the binding force of the universe.....
She is the PHOENIX......
1.No, she is not. Closer things to this one are: Nexus of all Realities, M'Kraan Crystal and White Room. 2.No, she is not. Phoenix Force is. 3.No she is not. There is no such a thing acctually, but I would say that Eternity is the closeset one to this thing. 4.And finally - no, she is not. She is only an avatar of Phoenix Force from 616, which in most powerfull form that could have reach Universal level of power are White Phoenixes, which is Jean in her different form. Dark Phoenix is the weakest form that doesn't have this power, it only has POTENTIAL to be The One, but she isn't.
And that all beside the thing, that Legion did the same thing as WPOTC.
@LordOfAllHumans: X appeared for the first time only in AoX, she was never around before that. Where does it say that the Phoenix in AoX was Rachel? Scans?
If he indeed altered all of history then why oh why would Rachel be alerted to something being amiss? Why is she in such a state of confusion, why does she even exist at all, in the 616 timeline the events that led to Rachel even coming to the past was the plot to kill Kelly, in this reality, that did not seem to happen as Albany was behind the agenda to eradicate mutants in "the future" not the death of Senator Kelly.
Because X herself said that it was her first attempt at warping, so there were errors. Rachel was one of them. She later stated that she had perfected her ability and could recreate 616 flawlessly, but Legion absorbed her before she did.
oh well since she said it, it must be true and by that logic what the Watcher said about Dark Phoenix is also true which means she is second only to the creator, which means she wins, thank you for making a case in favor of Dark Phoenix..I'm done here really, you don't seem to be able to figure that comics are not situational epsisodes, but a set of events that follow continuity which stands to reason he did not warp the past as we have seen what happened the last time he did that.
@LordOfAllHumans: X appeared for the first time only in AoX, she was never around before that. Where does it say that the Phoenix in AoX was Rachel? Scans?
If he indeed altered all of history then why oh why would Rachel be alerted to something being amiss? Why is she in such a state of confusion, why does she even exist at all, in the 616 timeline the events that led to Rachel even coming to the past was the plot to kill Kelly, in this reality, that did not seem to happen as Albany was behind the agenda to eradicate mutants in "the future" not the death of Senator Kelly.
Because X herself said that it was her first attempt at warping, so there were errors. Rachel was one of them. She later stated that she had perfected her ability and could recreate 616 flawlessly, but Legion absorbed her before she did.
oh well since she said it, it must be true and by that logic what the Watcher said about Dark Phoenix is also true which means she is second only to the creator, which means she wins, thank you for making a case in favor of Dark Phoenix..I'm done here really, you don't seem to be able to figure that comics are not situational epsisodes, but a set of events that follow continuity which stands to reason he did not warp the past as we have seen what happened the last time he did that.
Like czarny said, DP has no universal level feats.
Legion... And if anyone says different thing I am open for looking on scan in which DP showed universal level power.
She is the nexus of creation....
She is all that was and ever will be......
She is the binding force of the universe.....
She is the PHOENIX......
1.No, she is not. Closer things to this one are: Nexus of all Realities, M'Kraan Crystal and White Room. 2.No, she is not. Phoenix Force is. 3.No she is not. There is no such a thing acctually, but I would say that Eternity is the closeset one to this thing. 4.And finally - no, she is not. She is only an avatar of Phoenix Force from 616, which in most powerfull form that could have reach Universal level of power are White Phoenixes, which is Jean in her different form. Dark Phoenix is the weakest form that doesn't have this power, it only has POTENTIAL to be The One, but she isn't. And that all beside the thing, that Legion did the same thing as WPOTC.
Dude, I know, I was joking. I think Legion would win this. I was arguing with a Phoenix fanboy once and those lines were the response he gave me.
Legion... And if anyone says different thing I am open for looking on scan in which DP showed universal level power.
She is the nexus of creation....
She is all that was and ever will be......
She is the binding force of the universe.....
She is the PHOENIX......
1.No, she is not. Closer things to this one are: Nexus of all Realities, M'Kraan Crystal and White Room. 2.No, she is not. Phoenix Force is. 3.No she is not. There is no such a thing acctually, but I would say that Eternity is the closeset one to this thing. 4.And finally - no, she is not. She is only an avatar of Phoenix Force from 616, which in most powerfull form that could have reach Universal level of power are White Phoenixes, which is Jean in her different form. Dark Phoenix is the weakest form that doesn't have this power, it only has POTENTIAL to be The One, but she isn't. And that all beside the thing, that Legion did the same thing as WPOTC.
Dude, I know, I was joking. I think Legion would win this. I was arguing with a Phoenix fanboy once and those lines were the response he gave me.
then argue with me correctly because I never once said anybody wins, only responding to your apparent lack of comprehension when it comes to reality warps. And this is not a universal feat for Legion either, or Rachel would have not been there...end of story, if he warped the entire universe Havok, and Polaris would not be in space and Rachel would not have even existed as nothing that led to them being where they are currently would have happened and like I said the M'Kraan crystal would still be breached and that universe and all others would be at their end.
Legion... And if anyone says different thing I am open for looking on scan in which DP showed universal level power.
She is the nexus of creation....
She is all that was and ever will be......
She is the binding force of the universe.....
She is the PHOENIX......
1.No, she is not. Closer things to this one are: Nexus of all Realities, M'Kraan Crystal and White Room. 2.No, she is not. Phoenix Force is. 3.No she is not. There is no such a thing acctually, but I would say that Eternity is the closeset one to this thing. 4.And finally - no, she is not. She is only an avatar of Phoenix Force from 616, which in most powerfull form that could have reach Universal level of power are White Phoenixes, which is Jean in her different form. Dark Phoenix is the weakest form that doesn't have this power, it only has POTENTIAL to be The One, but she isn't. And that all beside the thing, that Legion did the same thing as WPOTC.
your 4th response has a few holes in it, Jean/Green Phoenix/Dark Phoenix were all the same, when Dark Phoenix kills herself, she becomes White Phoenix shortly after and speaks with Death, when talking to Death, Death tells this White Phoenix that everything that happened was her not some other being pretending to be her or some separate avatar. The Dark Phoenix per the Saga was the Phoenix Force made flesh, 616 Jean is the White Phoenix and is merged with the entire Force as other avatars from the other universes are all present in the White Hot Room and not one of them holds her position or power. As White Phoenix she was responsible for building an after life for the beings she killed as Dark Phoenix, per Death. Dark Phoenix in 616 is not a being unto itself it is just a bloodlusted Phoenix Force. 616 is the prime reality, which means Jean is the prime Phoenix which we all know, the colors represent levels of understanding about being the Phoenix, Green = compassion, Dark = raw passion without compassion, White = balance, in the end they are all 616 Jean Grey merged with the primal force of creation. Jean is the Prime host just like 616 is the prime reality.
Legion... And if anyone says different thing I am open for looking on scan in which DP showed universal level power.
She is the nexus of creation....
She is all that was and ever will be......
She is the binding force of the universe.....
She is the PHOENIX......
1.No, she is not. Closer things to this one are: Nexus of all Realities, M'Kraan Crystal and White Room. 2.No, she is not. Phoenix Force is. 3.No she is not. There is no such a thing acctually, but I would say that Eternity is the closeset one to this thing. 4.And finally - no, she is not. She is only an avatar of Phoenix Force from 616, which in most powerfull form that could have reach Universal level of power are White Phoenixes, which is Jean in her different form. Dark Phoenix is the weakest form that doesn't have this power, it only has POTENTIAL to be The One, but she isn't. And that all beside the thing, that Legion did the same thing as WPOTC.
Dude, I know, I was joking. I think Legion would win this. I was arguing with a Phoenix fanboy once and those lines were the response he gave me.
Sorry, I wasn't really reading this thread besides scans that could be the only prove here. ;)
@LordOfAllHumans said:
@czarny_samael666 said:
1.No, she is not. Closer things to this one are: Nexus of all Realities, M'Kraan Crystal and White Room. 2.No, she is not. Phoenix Force is. 3.No she is not. There is no such a thing acctually, but I would say that Eternity is the closeset one to this thing. 4.And finally - no, she is not. She is only an avatar of Phoenix Force from 616, which in most powerfull form that could have reach Universal level of power are White Phoenixes, which is Jean in her different form. Dark Phoenix is the weakest form that doesn't have this power, it only has POTENTIAL to be The One, but she isn't. And that all beside the thing, that Legion did the same thing as WPOTC.
your 4th response has a few holes in it, Jean/Green Phoenix/Dark Phoenix were all the same, when Dark Phoenix kills herself, she becomes White Phoenix shortly after and speaks with Death, when talking to Death, Death tells this White Phoenix that everything that happened was her not some other being pretending to be her or some separate avatar. The Dark Phoenix per the Saga was the Phoenix Force made flesh, 616 Jean is the White Phoenix and is merged with the entire Force as other avatars from the other universes are all present in the White Hot Room and not one of them holds her position or power. As White Phoenix she was responsible for building an after life for the beings she killed as Dark Phoenix, per Death. Dark Phoenix in 616 is not a being unto itself it is just a bloodlusted Phoenix Force. 616 is the prime reality, which means Jean is the prime Phoenix which we all know, the colors represent levels of understanding about being the Phoenix, Green = compassion, Dark = raw passion without compassion, White = balance, in the end they are all 616 Jean Grey merged with the primal force of creation. Jean is the Prime host just like 616 is the prime reality.
So she simply need to die and understand her power better. Which IS a change that we consider as change into WPOTC. As we talk about different Hulks, Stranges or Thor (which is the best example: Classic Thor ---> RKT/OF Thor).
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