" @velle37 said:Nightwing is NOT better then Canary, I doubt Connor is either since he basically has one feat and that was fighting ShivaDinah is easily in the top ten. Dragon, Tiger, Shiva, Wayne, and Cassie are a lock. Drakon, David Cain, Nightwing and Hawke are arguably better than Dinah (good place for another thread). That's ten right there. Canary hasn't even fought all of these so who knows who would beat who. To be clear I'm arguing Canary's rank among the other fighters and in no way am I saying she beats Shiva. Canary doesn't need her cry to win this. She just needs a few drops of blood =D "" @charlieboy said:
"well now that black canary has advanced her training by shiva. i would give it to canary. "
No. She still cannot beat Shiva. She knows this and says this many times throughoutthe Birds of Prey series. That's why Shiva's training her. She's not in the top 3 martial artist, not even the top 10. Probably not even the top 20. Shiva, David Cain, O-Sensei, Sensei, I-ching, Batman, Tiger, Richard, Natas, and Drakon can all beat her, to name a few..... She is awesome tho. Notice nearly all of those were noted masters of some sort, so it takes a master to take her down. She can take down a lot of people in the DCU but she still not at the level of Shiva.......... yet............... "
Lady Shiva vs Black Canary
" @Pokeysteve said:" @velle37 said:Nightwing is NOT better then Canary, I doubt Connor is either since he basically has one feat and that was fighting Shiva "Dinah is easily in the top ten. Dragon, Tiger, Shiva, Wayne, and Cassie are a lock. Drakon, David Cain, Nightwing and Hawke are arguably better than Dinah (good place for another thread). That's ten right there. Canary hasn't even fought all of these so who knows who would beat who. To be clear I'm arguing Canary's rank among the other fighters and in no way am I saying she beats Shiva. Canary doesn't need her cry to win this. She just needs a few drops of blood =D "" @charlieboy said:
"well now that black canary has advanced her training by shiva. i would give it to canary. "
No. She still cannot beat Shiva. She knows this and says this many times throughoutthe Birds of Prey series. That's why Shiva's training her. She's not in the top 3 martial artist, not even the top 10. Probably not even the top 20. Shiva, David Cain, O-Sensei, Sensei, I-ching, Batman, Tiger, Richard, Natas, and Drakon can all beat her, to name a few..... She is awesome tho. Notice nearly all of those were noted masters of some sort, so it takes a master to take her down. She can take down a lot of people in the DCU but she still not at the level of Shiva.......... yet............... "
Both of your statement's are debatable.
" @FinalStar86 said:Canary has more wins over credible fighters then Dick does." @Pokeysteve said:Both of your statement's are debatable. "" @velle37 said:Nightwing is NOT better then Canary, I doubt Connor is either since he basically has one feat and that was fighting Shiva "Dinah is easily in the top ten. Dragon, Tiger, Shiva, Wayne, and Cassie are a lock. Drakon, David Cain, Nightwing and Hawke are arguably better than Dinah (good place for another thread). That's ten right there. Canary hasn't even fought all of these so who knows who would beat who. To be clear I'm arguing Canary's rank among the other fighters and in no way am I saying she beats Shiva. Canary doesn't need her cry to win this. She just needs a few drops of blood =D "" @charlieboy said:
"well now that black canary has advanced her training by shiva. i would give it to canary. "
No. She still cannot beat Shiva. She knows this and says this many times throughoutthe Birds of Prey series. That's why Shiva's training her. She's not in the top 3 martial artist, not even the top 10. Probably not even the top 20. Shiva, David Cain, O-Sensei, Sensei, I-ching, Batman, Tiger, Richard, Natas, and Drakon can all beat her, to name a few..... She is awesome tho. Notice nearly all of those were noted masters of some sort, so it takes a master to take her down. She can take down a lot of people in the DCU but she still not at the level of Shiva.......... yet............... "
" @velle37 said:" @FinalStar86 said:Canary has more wins over credible fighters then Dick does. "" @Pokeysteve said:Both of your statement's are debatable. "" @velle37 said:Nightwing is NOT better then Canary, I doubt Connor is either since he basically has one feat and that was fighting Shiva "Dinah is easily in the top ten. Dragon, Tiger, Shiva, Wayne, and Cassie are a lock. Drakon, David Cain, Nightwing and Hawke are arguably better than Dinah (good place for another thread). That's ten right there. Canary hasn't even fought all of these so who knows who would beat who. To be clear I'm arguing Canary's rank among the other fighters and in no way am I saying she beats Shiva. Canary doesn't need her cry to win this. She just needs a few drops of blood =D "" @charlieboy said:
"well now that black canary has advanced her training by shiva. i would give it to canary. "
No. She still cannot beat Shiva. She knows this and says this many times throughoutthe Birds of Prey series. That's why Shiva's training her. She's not in the top 3 martial artist, not even the top 10. Probably not even the top 20. Shiva, David Cain, O-Sensei, Sensei, I-ching, Batman, Tiger, Richard, Natas, and Drakon can all beat her, to name a few..... She is awesome tho. Notice nearly all of those were noted masters of some sort, so it takes a master to take her down. She can take down a lot of people in the DCU but she still not at the level of Shiva.......... yet............... "
She does. But he is not very often paired against martial artists, he typically fights freaks and meta's. So how would that compare?
" @FinalStar86 said:She did better against Deathstroke then Dick ever did, she also beat that one chick that gave Batigirl hell [I forget her name]" @velle37 said:She does. But he is not very often paired against martial artists, he typically fights freaks and meta's. So how would that compare? "" @FinalStar86 said:Canary has more wins over credible fighters then Dick does. "" @Pokeysteve said:Both of your statement's are debatable. "" @velle37 said:Nightwing is NOT better then Canary, I doubt Connor is either since he basically has one feat and that was fighting Shiva "Dinah is easily in the top ten. Dragon, Tiger, Shiva, Wayne, and Cassie are a lock. Drakon, David Cain, Nightwing and Hawke are arguably better than Dinah (good place for another thread). That's ten right there. Canary hasn't even fought all of these so who knows who would beat who. To be clear I'm arguing Canary's rank among the other fighters and in no way am I saying she beats Shiva. Canary doesn't need her cry to win this. She just needs a few drops of blood =D "" @charlieboy said:
"well now that black canary has advanced her training by shiva. i would give it to canary. "
No. She still cannot beat Shiva. She knows this and says this many times throughoutthe Birds of Prey series. That's why Shiva's training her. She's not in the top 3 martial artist, not even the top 10. Probably not even the top 20. Shiva, David Cain, O-Sensei, Sensei, I-ching, Batman, Tiger, Richard, Natas, and Drakon can all beat her, to name a few..... She is awesome tho. Notice nearly all of those were noted masters of some sort, so it takes a master to take her down. She can take down a lot of people in the DCU but she still not at the level of Shiva.......... yet............... "
" @velle37 said:" @FinalStar86 said:She did better against Deathstroke then Dick ever did, she also beat that one chick that gave Batigirl hell [I forget her name] "" @velle37 said:She does. But he is not very often paired against martial artists, he typically fights freaks and meta's. So how would that compare? "" @FinalStar86 said:Canary has more wins over credible fighters then Dick does. "" @Pokeysteve said:Both of your statement's are debatable. "" @velle37 said:Nightwing is NOT better then Canary, I doubt Connor is either since he basically has one feat and that was fighting Shiva "Dinah is easily in the top ten. Dragon, Tiger, Shiva, Wayne, and Cassie are a lock. Drakon, David Cain, Nightwing and Hawke are arguably better than Dinah (good place for another thread). That's ten right there. Canary hasn't even fought all of these so who knows who would beat who. To be clear I'm arguing Canary's rank among the other fighters and in no way am I saying she beats Shiva. Canary doesn't need her cry to win this. She just needs a few drops of blood =D "" @charlieboy said:
"well now that black canary has advanced her training by shiva. i would give it to canary. "
No. She still cannot beat Shiva. She knows this and says this many times throughoutthe Birds of Prey series. That's why Shiva's training her. She's not in the top 3 martial artist, not even the top 10. Probably not even the top 20. Shiva, David Cain, O-Sensei, Sensei, I-ching, Batman, Tiger, Richard, Natas, and Drakon can all beat her, to name a few..... She is awesome tho. Notice nearly all of those were noted masters of some sort, so it takes a master to take her down. She can take down a lot of people in the DCU but she still not at the level of Shiva.......... yet............... "
How so? DS broke multiple bones in her body if i remember correctly, but i don't remember him ever critically injuring Dick. Also there were multiple people in BC's fight with DS, it wasn't a one on one fight.
I don't know what girl you mean.....
" @FinalStar86 said:DS was owning the Birds but Canary was the one who was able to fight him and hold her own, I can think of 4 instances where Slade dominated Nightwing and one instance where Nightwing ran away from him. You could say that they also had more encounters but I haven't seen an instance where Dick did that well against Slade, unless you count their last fight where Slade was trying to escape before the cops came." @velle37 said:How so? DS broke multiple bones in her body if i remember correctly, but i don't remember him ever critically injuring Dick. Also there were multiple people in BC's fight with DS, it wasn't a one on one fight. I don't know what girl you mean..... "" @FinalStar86 said:She did better against Deathstroke then Dick ever did, she also beat that one chick that gave Batigirl hell [I forget her name] "" @velle37 said:She does. But he is not very often paired against martial artists, he typically fights freaks and meta's. So how would that compare? "" @FinalStar86 said:Canary has more wins over credible fighters then Dick does. "" @Pokeysteve said:Both of your statement's are debatable. "" @velle37 said:Nightwing is NOT better then Canary, I doubt Connor is either since he basically has one feat and that was fighting Shiva "Dinah is easily in the top ten. Dragon, Tiger, Shiva, Wayne, and Cassie are a lock. Drakon, David Cain, Nightwing and Hawke are arguably better than Dinah (good place for another thread). That's ten right there. Canary hasn't even fought all of these so who knows who would beat who. To be clear I'm arguing Canary's rank among the other fighters and in no way am I saying she beats Shiva. Canary doesn't need her cry to win this. She just needs a few drops of blood =D "" @charlieboy said:
"well now that black canary has advanced her training by shiva. i would give it to canary. "
No. She still cannot beat Shiva. She knows this and says this many times throughoutthe Birds of Prey series. That's why Shiva's training her. She's not in the top 3 martial artist, not even the top 10. Probably not even the top 20. Shiva, David Cain, O-Sensei, Sensei, I-ching, Batman, Tiger, Richard, Natas, and Drakon can all beat her, to name a few..... She is awesome tho. Notice nearly all of those were noted masters of some sort, so it takes a master to take her down. She can take down a lot of people in the DCU but she still not at the level of Shiva.......... yet............... "
" @velle37 said:" @FinalStar86 said:DS was owning the Birds but Canary was the one who was able to fight him and hold her own, I can think of 4 instances where Slade dominated Nightwing and one instance where Nightwing ran away from him. You could say that they also had more encounters but I haven't seen an instance where Dick did that well against Slade, unless you count their last fight where Slade was trying to escape before the cops came. "" @velle37 said:How so? DS broke multiple bones in her body if i remember correctly, but i don't remember him ever critically injuring Dick. Also there were multiple people in BC's fight with DS, it wasn't a one on one fight. I don't know what girl you mean..... "" @FinalStar86 said:She did better against Deathstroke then Dick ever did, she also beat that one chick that gave Batigirl hell [I forget her name] "" @velle37 said:She does. But he is not very often paired against martial artists, he typically fights freaks and meta's. So how would that compare? "" @FinalStar86 said:Canary has more wins over credible fighters then Dick does. "" @Pokeysteve said:Both of your statement's are debatable. "" @velle37 said:Nightwing is NOT better then Canary, I doubt Connor is either since he basically has one feat and that was fighting Shiva "Dinah is easily in the top ten. Dragon, Tiger, Shiva, Wayne, and Cassie are a lock. Drakon, David Cain, Nightwing and Hawke are arguably better than Dinah (good place for another thread). That's ten right there. Canary hasn't even fought all of these so who knows who would beat who. To be clear I'm arguing Canary's rank among the other fighters and in no way am I saying she beats Shiva. Canary doesn't need her cry to win this. She just needs a few drops of blood =D "" @charlieboy said:
"well now that black canary has advanced her training by shiva. i would give it to canary. "
No. She still cannot beat Shiva. She knows this and says this many times throughoutthe Birds of Prey series. That's why Shiva's training her. She's not in the top 3 martial artist, not even the top 10. Probably not even the top 20. Shiva, David Cain, O-Sensei, Sensei, I-ching, Batman, Tiger, Richard, Natas, and Drakon can all beat her, to name a few..... She is awesome tho. Notice nearly all of those were noted masters of some sort, so it takes a master to take her down. She can take down a lot of people in the DCU but she still not at the level of Shiva.......... yet............... "
DS didn't seem to be trying at all IMO... But i do think BC put up a good fight...
I recall Nightwing dancing circles around and contending with DS in Renegade, though he admitted he wasn't ready at that time to take down Slade for good. His recent fight in the Titans was a good show. And Nightwing has completely owned a depowered DS. Even when he was Robin, Slade was impressed with his tactics.
Nightwing has had a better martial background for a longer time than BC. Only recently has she been doing intense training and such with Shiva and Shiva's former master, and others. She previously had mainly Judo and Boxing (Wildcat), with a few other martial arts, and she was always a very good fighter. But Nightwing has had over a decade of Batman's tutelage, he should really be better than he's usually portrayed MA wise.
Skill wise i do think they are neck and neck, and i do tend to lean towards BC, because she is written better than Nightwing was for a while (Great Leap was good, but the stuff before it was stupid). But as an overall fighter, Dick is stronger, faster, more agile, and smarter/a better tactition. He should win in a fight between them.
"But Nightwing has had over a decade of Batman's tutelage, he should really be better than he's usually portrayed MA wise.I like this statement.
" @velle37 said:"But Nightwing has had over a decade of Batman's tutelage, he should really be better than he's usually portrayed MA wise.I like this statement. "
It's the truth. Bruce can't have trained for much more time than this, in order to become Batman and be in his 20's, so he'd have to have trained from 8 yrs old to 18-20. Dick has had a similar amount of time, with tha added bonus that Bruce most likely made an efficient hybrid of the most useful techniques (like Bruce Lee practicalizing Wing Chun into Jeet Kune Do), plus Dick was already a natural athlete, and a fast learner. He should be a lot better than what he's usually written as.
I didn't say she was better. I said arguable. I've been reading the forums here for much longer than I've been a member and you're one of the only ones whose facts I trust. I'd have to argue for Nightwing though. Batman and Richard Dragon among other MA teachers is no joke. Again not saying he's better just saying it's possible. Dinah's had impressive teachers and sparring partners as well. What about David Cain? Haven't read much with him. I know he was one of Shiva's first trainers. I think Oracle at one point suspects Canary is on par with Bruce. Haven't read anything like that since so I take it with a grain you know." @Pokeysteve said:
" @velle37 said:Nightwing is NOT better then Canary, I doubt Connor is either since he basically has one feat and that was fighting Shiva "Dinah is easily in the top ten. Dragon, Tiger, Shiva, Wayne, and Cassie are a lock. Drakon, David Cain, Nightwing and Hawke are arguably better than Dinah (good place for another thread). That's ten right there. Canary hasn't even fought all of these so who knows who would beat who. To be clear I'm arguing Canary's rank among the other fighters and in no way am I saying she beats Shiva. Canary doesn't need her cry to win this. She just needs a few drops of blood =D "" @charlieboy said:
"well now that black canary has advanced her training by shiva. i would give it to canary. "
No. She still cannot beat Shiva. She knows this and says this many times throughoutthe Birds of Prey series. That's why Shiva's training her. She's not in the top 3 martial artist, not even the top 10. Probably not even the top 20. Shiva, David Cain, O-Sensei, Sensei, I-ching, Batman, Tiger, Richard, Natas, and Drakon can all beat her, to name a few..... She is awesome tho. Notice nearly all of those were noted masters of some sort, so it takes a master to take her down. She can take down a lot of people in the DCU but she still not at the level of Shiva.......... yet............... "
Lady Shiva over Canary with no call. Shiva has been said by even Batman that she is the best fighter he has come across...
Lady Shiva has defeated Black Canary, Huntress and Catwoman all at once, but Dinah has had training since then which she displayed when she had a rematch with Savant. Based on pre New 52 I would place her right above Batman. Even Shiva took note of how much she improved prior to taking her on as a student. Cassandra mentioned once that sparring with her felt like fighting Shiva.
Shiva is the more skilled fighter. Dinah can definitely contend and get a few hits in, but I see shiva winning 9/10 with no cry available
Lady Shiva
I would give this to Shiva since she is a better fighter although I am a bigger canary fan. But with the scream, I would like to see shiva even survive against her. Plus she is right behind shiva in fighting as shiva admitted that Black Canary is her successor (sorry Cass)
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