Kyp Durron vs. Corran Horn

Jedi Master Kyp Durron - at his peak, which would be somewhere around NJO series I presume. He doesn't have many feats after the series.

Jedi Master Corran Horn - at his peak accordingly, guess the same era?

I have my opinion on this, but I'm not entirely sure, so I'll happilly talk with you about your opinions. :)

Bump. Kyp Durron just about every time. He should be at least as capable as a swordsman, and is more powerful.

Most likely Kyp. They're pretty much even in the physical department, as well as dueling, though Kyp's Force abilities are miles above Corran's.

@fenderek: opinion ?

Hasn't Kyp beaten Horn before?

@boringperson: Yes he did, but that was with the aid of Exar Kun - and that was before either of them reach their respective primes.

I'm inclined to say Durron, but I'm terribly conflicted.

Saber ability of the two. Durron, to my knowledge, is relatively featless as a saberist. He sparred equally with all those Jedi in Fury (Corran as well, and the rest being Cilghal, Octa, Kyle and Saba) and that's about it. Corran's showings against Saba in this small sparring were relatively good, but Kyp's against Luke too - sure, Kyp didn't achieve much against Luke, but neither any of the rest would, and he still made some good moves. However, comparing Corran vs. Saba in a sparring and Kyp vs. Luke is very hard, as it was simply training. Fighting a leviathan is hard to judge - beasts are completely different story. Kyp is often lowballed because of his utterly weak showing against a wounded Slayer in TUF. However, the problem is that this weak showing is one of only Kyp's real lightsaber fights besides fighting cannon fodder or practicing. Even TUF Jaina was capable of combating Slayers, as well as Jacen - and Kyp was put down by only one of them, wounded. And he doesn't have many consistent lightsaber feats.

Corran, on the other hand, was wounded in a fight against regular Vong, but held much more success than Kyp did (his fight against a Slayer was terribly quick stomp). He also defeated Shedao Shai, whose rank should put him on a very high level for a Vong, but it's difficult to have him compared to Slayers. Corran also fought evenly against Saarai-kaar, but again... she was featless, and he "defeated" her by utilizing illusions and allowed his wife to stun her. Corran has good showings against featless or relatively featless characters; Kyp has a terrible showing against a decent character. I simply don't know how to judge them in lightsaber department.

I can't compare them properly in the Force. Kyp has astonishing telekinesis - Corran has none. Kyp has also shoved Corran across the hangar once (Dark Nest Trilogy, the second book I believe?), albeit Yoda did the same to Sidious who was his superior in a similiar manner (mid-talk)... Uh. Corran is terrifying in illusions, being able to use them on other Force-Sensitives: Saarai-kaar, his fellow students in Jedi Praxeum (tricking them into thinking he lifted a rock via TK). However, can he use that on Durron? Durron himself is knowledgeable in mind probing and manipulation. He could extract specific knowledge from people, and purge them of memory. Corran also has tutaminis and every means to defend against telekinesis, but... he failed against Durron.

I would give the edge to Kyp in the Force - Corran's abilities, while powerful and equal overall, are much less combat-useful, and Kyp's telekinesis abilities are extremely, extremely powerful. He should probably be at the bottom of Top 20 in SW.

But that's about it. I can't solve the mystery about their saber skill, and they are SO different in Force that I can't compare them myself.

EDIT: How can I delete the "best answer" mark? Accidentaly clicked it on my own post rather than Edit button -__-

Second bump, just cause this has discussion potential.

@dccomicsrule2011@fenderek I'm not convinced they are utter equals as swordsmen. Technically speaking, Kyp's feats seem to be everywhere. However, I do recall Kyle or somebody else referring to Kyp as Kyle Katarn's equal. Kyle should be above Corran, to be honest. I recall Corran conceding that Mara was the better duelist than he was (this was much earlier than their primes, to memory, but it would be unreasonable to assume Mara didn't improve at the same rate Corran did). Now, that in of itself could be considered a somewhat weak basis for an argument, but assuming they are reliable, Kyp could be the better swordsman.

I'm not so convinced the Vong are the best comparisons to judge these Jedi in the first place, though, because fighting a Vong warrior is different from fighting a Jedi.

@shootingnova:

Yeah, during Luke's duel with Gaalan, he said the latter would have been a good match for master swordsman such as Kyp and Katarn, and that Gaalan would have been to much for a Jedi on Cilghal caliber. Now this is of course debatable, but Luke should know the capabilities of the Jedi-- and if we were to take the feat at face value, that should put Kyp on equal terms with Katarn, or marginally below ( I lean towards the latter seeing as how Kyle's dueling feats, reputation, and knoowledgeout-strips Kyp's.)

As for the Mara Jade point...is Kyle really a better duelist then Jade?

@dccomicsrule2011: Hmm... I'm not sure. Mara's feats, to my memory, were mostly sparring or vs. Vong, since some of the others (Caedus) were ridiculously inconsistent.

@shootingnova: Okay. I think it's safe to say that Kyle is better then Mara as a duelist. At least at amarginal difference. Do you think Luke's statement holes up, or is it just a baseless statement?

@dccomicsrule2011: I wouldn't say it's baseless.

@shootingnova I'm answering only now because of new user's limit to their posts. :P

I believe we all agree that while Corran surpasses Durron in mental powers, and his illusions are far more impressive than anything Durron done with telepathic-related abilities, they are going to play a much smaller role because of the caliber these two represent. We all know Durron is vastly more powerful by the sheer showings of his telekinesis abilities.

But as for the saber... Yes, it was like @dccomicsrule2011 mentioned. Kyp and Kyle were mentioned by Luke in the same "thought", but I'm really skeptic towards that quote. It is not only just an opinion (although Luke's ones certainly have the largest value as he trained them all) - Luke just stated that Gaalan could give a fight for Kyp or Kyle (I can't put exact quote, I have the book in Polish). As it was just a though mid-combat against someone who he just began to duel, I don't really believe such an opinion would be a precise analysis of Gaalan's level compared to two Jedi. That's why I stick to the opinion that Luke's statement was more about Gaalan being around their level to give a fair fight, and, well... Savage Opress could give a fight for Adi Gallia, for Asajj, for Obi-Wan and Dooku - the outcome is another thing.

I'm not so convinced the Vong are the best comparisons to judge these Jedi in the first place, though, because fighting a Vong warrior is different from fighting a Jedi.

It certainly is if you include specific things. First - fights against them are completely different, but every fight I mentioned occured after Kyp and Corran, not mentioning hordes of their friends, had already encountered Yuuzhan Vongs. It is of course a completely different style of fighting, but they had the time to adapt, and if they didn't it still allows us to judge them after such a time as simply having problem with adaptability. Secondly, you have to include that it's a test of pure skill, technique, and sheer strength/speed/resilience. Jedi precognition and their overall Force atunement, Sense abilities, are gone, and against Yuuzhan Vong you can judge the sole lightsaber mastery, which is useful for us. And again - here we at least have an area where we can put both of them :P

Corran Horn also has a decent showing in his fight against Lost Tribe of the Sith along with Luke, Jaina and Ben in Apocalypse. He shown amazing endurance, fighting despite serious wounds and a long, tiring fight, surpassing Kyp surviving breaking his bones to fit in his escape pod. He also slained there quite a lot of these Sith. Kyp has only a showing in which he received a stomp from Slayer, the fight against Leviathan, and some against the Empire... at least in my knowledge.

Kyp

@fenderek:

1. Once you make it to 25 then it should be over.

2. I'm less than convinced that the Illusions should afford Corran any sort of majority. They could be worth bringing up, or not.

3. Fair enough. It's only a rough indication. The issue with Kyp's feats is simply the lack of strong consistency, which makes it essentially a lack of feats on his part.

4. Well, using Corran from FotJ, in Outcast, he seemed to be fighting defensively against Valin Horn and still matched him well enough but obviously tired more quickly. He did briefly place Valin in Stasis, which is a good feat but nothing that leads me to indicate he could use it on Kyp.