Kyle Katarn vs Count Dooku

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TheVivas

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#1  Edited By TheVivas
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vs

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Both in character, random encounter at The Jedi Temple on Coruscant. Who takes it?

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theknoledgeoflife

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#2  Edited By theknoledgeoflife

Katarn easilly, even though count doku was one of the greats in the old republic, kyle had surpassed him way before he even became a jedi.

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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Dooku.

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TheVivas

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#6  Edited By BoringPerson

@thevivas: Dooku's saber skill is greater, his physicals are inferior, his force skill is similar but probably better, and his force strength is certainly greater.

Sith are superior to Dark Jedi :(

I'd say Dooku would take 6.5/10, but that's mostly my Beard Love talking.

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ShootingNova

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#7  Edited By ShootingNova

Kyle is not winning at all, let alone easily.

Dooku is more skilled. He has stomped AotC Obi-Wan, beaten AotC Anakin, stalemated TCW-RotS Anakin, contended with Yoda, contended/fought evenly with Anakin and Obi-Wan from RotS and TCW, respectively, stalemated/defeated Mace Windu on varying occasions during spars as a Jedi, beaten Ventress, stalemated Ventress and two of the best Nightsister warriors whilst drugged, repeatedly beaten Grievous, etc. Kyle has beaten the seven Dark Jedi, including Jerec, Boc Aseca, Sariss, Maw etc. before receiving much formal Jedi training, but these Dark Jedi, powerful or not, were mostly featless. Did they have some level of skill? Yes, undoubtedly. Are they really comparable to the characters Dooku has beaten? No. Obi-Wan from AotC is more skilful than his TPM incarnation, an iteration already capable of challenging Qui-Gon in spars (Qui-Gon being one of the best swordsmen in the history of the Order). AotC Anakin was comparable to Dooku in skill, stalemated Ventress, and has a strong set of telekinetic, strength and speed feats to supplement his skill. Yoda and Mace need little explanation, and are the two best swordsmen in the Order. Ventress has consistently troubled Anakin and Obi-Wan. Grievous is very much a formidable fighter by virtue of his own showings (ie. Stalemating Mace on disadvantaged ground, stomping Shaak Ti, beating a host of other Jedi, etc.) and so on. The Dark Jedi Kyle has beaten have nothing to compare to the duelists Dooku has beaten. The Seven Dark Jedi have power showings, but no skill showings.

Referring to other skill feats, Kyle has beaten Jeng Droga off-panel (it might not have been due to skill, though, since it was off-panel). He has also beaten Vong warriors, which is good because other Jedi such as Mara, Jacen, Corran, etc. have had difficulty with them, but that hardly matches Dooku's showings. Grievous wrecked several Magnaguards (beings of roughly Vong-class) during his first tenure with a lightsaber, and despite improving afterward, Dooku repeatedly outfought him in their sparring matches.

After Kyle became the Jedi Battlemaster, Darth Caedus, a character of eclipsing skill, speed and power comparative to Dooku, considered him a legitimate threat, but he was still disposed of without much issue. Kyle was also considered to be on the level of Kyp Durron (whom is mostly a featless duelist) and Viun Gaalan (whom has no feats aside from inconsistently contending with Luke), and being at least a tier ahead of Cilghal, whose only feat was wrecking a featless Jedi. These accolades came from Luke, so they should be usable, but they aren't entirely impressive. That, and Tyranus has his own accolades. He was one of the Order's best lightsaber duelists (Darth Plagueis), an equal for Mace Windu (Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Star Wars Databank), Mace having been considered one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order, and in the history of the Old Republic (The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded). Jocasta Nu told Obi-Wan that in the old style of fencing, Dooku was matchless (AotC Junior Novel). Dooku has the better accolades as well. The Count is undoubtedly more skilful. Kyle does utilize Djem So, to memory, which is effective against Makashi, but not an automatic win. Contrary to popular belief, Dooku himself has fairly impressive strength feats (wrecking Ventress and Obi-Wan, for instance), so he should be able to withstand Kyle's Djem So.

Dooku is faster. Kyle doesn't have many combat speed feats to name at all, although his capacity to react to somebody like Caedus, who is well ahead of Dooku in speed, is a fairly decent showing. That said, he still has few combat speed showings to speak of, or at least to my memory. He did display a Saber Throw within two seconds during his duel with Caedus, but that was hardly overwhelming. Dooku has moved faster than Obi-Wan, made his blade appear to be everywhere at once, flickered his blade almost too fast for the eye to see, moved invisibly fast, formed 8 afterimages of his lightsaber, etc. His combat showings are superior to Kyle's, though probably not by much.

Dooku is more powerful. Kyle is fairly powerful - about the class of Obi-Wan Kenobi. He has displayed Protection to withstand acid rain, displayed Saber Throw, has dominated Tavion Axmis (whom is basically featless) whilst enraged, has telekinetically supported castle ceilings for a short period of time, but despite exercising maximum effort, he was still only able to last a few seconds with such a feat. That is, as I mentioned, about the level of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Which is good, but Dooku is much better. He has already ragdolled Obi-Wan, as well as other telekinetics of approachable and rivaling power, such as Quinlan Vos and Asajj Ventress, respectively. In respects to other feats, Dooku has lifted up over a dozen obelisks at once with no evident strain, easily Crushed the bases of cranes, casually collapsed cave ceilings and other portions of caves, effortlessly collapsed portions of a balcony onto Obi-Wan, effortlessly buried Tholme under rubble, effortlessly collapsed a bridge that was at least about 15-20m, etc. His Lightning has instantly killed several Kiffar warriors, and later killed several Nightbrothers, whom have enhanced durability. Admittedly, Dooku's showings in respects to environmental damage are less impressive than they could be, but as a character, he is more akin to Palpatine than Plagueis or Vader in the sense that his best power showings are seen in his domination of other powerful Force practitioners, not the destruction of the environment around him. His power showings are still much better than Kyle's, especially considering that he has already stomped characters at least as powerful as Kyle (Obi-Wan, Asajj Ventress) with the Force. With respects to power, Dooku also has much better accolades, for example, being one of the most powerful Force users in history, being one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's 25, 000 year history, being an even more powerful Sith than Jedi, and Yoda stated Dooku was otherwise the most powerful and well-learned Jedi in the Order before he had left.

Tyranus has superior Force-based and overall versatility. He displayed Force Flight, Doppelganger, Detoxify Poison, Lightning, Drain Knowledge, Heart Stun, Deflection etc. Kyle has shown Lightning, Darkshear (admittedly a power Dooku has never known or seen, though Kyle himself only used it once, and Dooku could repel it via Deflection anyway), Protection and Tutaminis. Dooku has the edge in Force-generated skills and versatility. Most of this is useless in combat, but clearly, Dooku is more knowledgeable and masterful in the ways of the Force. He utilized Deflection to repel his own Lightning that Yoda sent back at him - and his Lightning is more powerful than Kyle's, which is just about featless. Deflecting Lightning itself is considered a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters, as per The Ultimate Visual Guide. So he could repel Kyle's Lightning, and likely Kyle's Darkshear as well. Admittedly, Dooku has never seen that power before, so Kyle could win via that, but it's extremely unlikely given how Kyle himself only displayed it once, and Dooku's Deflection is powerful enough to repel it anyway. Kyle's Protection would be pointless in this scenario, as it won't be able to really save him from anything except a physical strike. He appears to know Tutaminis but he has no feats with that, to memory, so it would be useless. In turn, Dooku has shown Lightning that would be powerful enough to harm Kyle if it hit him (it was enough to harm Maul, whom has greater feats of resiliency than Kyle does), although Kyle could probably just dodge it or repel it on his blade, though he hasn't displayed enough with Deflection to suggest he could repel it that way.

So really, Tyranus has all the pertinent edges. He is faster, noticeably more skilled, immensely more powerful, more versatile, skilful, knowledgeable and masterful in the ways of the Force, has Dun Moch, etc. Kyle's only realistic edge is his martial skills, which might not even be an edge given Dooku's own displayed feats in the area, Darkshear, which he is extremely unlikely to use and can be repelled, and durability, which will not provide him a win, and which Dooku can circumvent. The Count should win every time.

Dooku, 10/10.

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Cyberzombie_Hatchetman

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Kyle punched out a Krayt Dragon with his bare hands before he even became a Jedi. At least he did during my playthrough of Dark Forces. I never found the hidden thermal detonators :(

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TheVivas

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@shootingnova: Every time? And here I thought it'd be a good fight haha

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keithcolby1995

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Are we talking about the Dooku that held his own against Anakin? Anakin > Luke > Dooku > Kyle

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deactivated-5dace575ce059

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mmhhhh going with dooku

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ShootingNova

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#15  Edited By Erkan12

Tyranus.

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JKBart

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Are we talking about the Dooku that held his own against Anakin? Anakin > Luke > Dooku > Kyle

Anakin Skywalker is not a match for Thrawn/DE era Luke Skywalker, let alone any future incarnations.

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keithcolby1995

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@jkbart: Anakin set the balance to the force. He stomps everyone.

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#19  Edited By JKBart

@keithcolby1995 said:

@jkbart: Anakin set the balance to the force. He stomps everyone.

And what does that mean in regard to their abilities? The scale on which one affected the galaxy doesn't mean anything. The abilities and power presented in it count. For the most clear example: Han Solo saved Luke Skywalker twice, a man without whom there would never be Vader's redemption, Sidious's destruction, New Jedi Order and so on. Heck, he even destroyed Sidious's last body. Does that mean he can do anything against a Jedi many tiers lower than Luke Skywalker, for instance: Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, Qui-Gon Jinn, or, let's even say, Shaak Ti - when all of them simply did much, much less for the galaxy? No.

How Anakin affected the galaxy, the Force balance etc. - means NOTHING. The abilities, the power utilized to do so, is what counts. Anakin didn't restore balance to the Force by actively manipulating it, cleansing it, or something like that.

Suffice to say, Dark Empire Luke Skywalker could keep up with Darth Sidious, first time losing, and the second time winning while amped via Force Harmony. Anakin couldn't track Palpatine's movements during his duel against Mace Windu and couldn't even recognize them at first. Luke, by the time of RotJ, was an equal to Vader, and I'm giving only the easiest and clearest examples.

If it's a troll, good job. :P

BTW, @shootingnova - very nice breakdown, I have completely nothing to add to the topic. While I believe Kyle simply suffers from underdevelopment as a lightsaber duelist, being depicted only in the sources that simply do him no good, you've listed practically everything about their Force abilities that is worth mentioning.

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ShootingNova

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Anakin would only beat the very latest iteration of Rebellion era Luke in a good fight. Mid-NR era Luke would beat him almost every time. Thrawn Trilogy Luke is well ahead of Anakin, and DE Luke would speedblitz Anakin.

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TheVivas

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@jkbart: Remind me never to troll around you LOL

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keithcolby1995

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@jkbart: Aren't the movie versions canon?

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theknoledgeoflife

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@shootingnova: he did beat aotc obiwan and anakin but thats when they were a bit younger, anakin stomped his ass in rots clonewars, trust me if kyle is the only one whoc ans tale amte new jedi order luke then u can bet he can smoke dooku

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The Count

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#25  Edited By ShootingNova

@theknoledgeoflife: Anakin never stomped Dooku. If you were referencing Season 6, you would realize that that was entirely an illusion in Yoda's head. That's why in the same season, Anakin and Obi-Wan together failed to beat Tyranus. That's also why Anakin never stomped Tyranus in RotS itself. You've failed to even address any of my points. Kyle has no feats to rival Tyranus. Therefore, he loses. Entertain whatever fantasies you will - I don't have the energy to argue such things.

And your sentences are unintelligible.

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Penderor

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Dooku wins every round.

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theknoledgeoflife

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you sure cause in the movies anakin did beat dooku out of anger, but im not saying dookus bad im just saying that kyle can beat him pretty bad because of the fact that hes shown to be way of a better duelist after episode 7 in the comcis. If kyle is able to hold his own against a grandmaster luke skywalker for a longtime whats not to say that he can very well smoke dooku.

FYI u didint have to be rude man its a forum not a place to be all butthurt about others opinions!!!!!

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Pharoh_Atem

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#28  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

The Count.

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#29  Edited By spartankobe

Dooku

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#30  Edited By Faymousinus

@theknoledgeoflife: Anakin beat him out of anger? Do you even know what one of the main things that the Darkside feeds on? Anger.

Anger can alot of the time make you hesitate and unfocused. Also letting you make stupid decisions.

I would say one of the main things that made Obi-Wan able to cut Anakin into small pieces. Was because he was hesitating and unfocused. No doubt that Obi-Wan was more skilled at the time, but it would've been a more even fight.

Anakin had also shown greater feats at the time he was fighting with Dooku.

-

Also, for the match. Im not gonna comment on it, since its pretty obvious.

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WollfMyth209

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#31  Edited By WollfMyth209

Dooku.

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ShootingNova

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@wollfmyth209: You should avoid bumping threads, especially if you're not going to post something revolutionary and are just going to drop names.

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Redhalo9

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What era of Kyle is this

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TheMuser

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@redhalo9: prime Kyle I suppose, on topic, Dooku stomps his poor beard into the dirt.

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Pharoh_Atem

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Dooku; Katarn's going to make him work for it, tho.

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echostarlord117

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Dooku; Katarn's going to make him work for it, tho.

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WollfMyth209

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Dooku should win every time. It's by no means a stomp, though.

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noobsnowman

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Dooku, 10/10.

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Emperordmb

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Dooku; Katarn's going to make him work for it, tho.

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deactivated-5cae4704c27f5

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Bump.

Katarn wins, with what level of difficulty I'm unsure.

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Meatpants

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I'm going Dooku for this one.

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Emperor_Goat

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Dooku one-shots.

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@meatpants: Feats for Dooku on par with essentially stalemating Caedus's blade work. You can honestly argue Caedus is a better swordsman than Windu via an active comparison who is in all honesty better than Dooku. Furthermore if Caedus can't ragdoll Katarn neither can Dooku. Katarn is frankly the better of the two.

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@emperor_goat: >Caedus can't breach Katarn's force defences or hold any comfortable edge in duelling.

>Dooku can one shot.

Makes sense.

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@jacensolo77: When Katarn has displayed the ability to ragdoll ROTS Kenobi or contend with Yoda let me know.

Until then Dooku takes.

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@arkhamasylum3: Dooku's superiority in the force is largely irrelevant, he can't breach Katarn's defences when Caedus couldn't and Katarn's skill was enough to stalemate Caedus, a noticeably better duellist than Dooku.

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Stormdriven

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I miss ShootingNova’s posts :(

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#50  Edited By ArkhamAsylum3

@jacensolo77: An injuired Caedus being unable to ragdoll Katarn may be a good feat for Katarn but it in no way shape for form proves Katarn won't be ragdolled by Dooku. Plus Force superiority is relevant irregardless of whether you can ragdoll your opponent or not given Force Users use their Force Reserves to amp their physical stats and if Dooku is better physically than Katarn then it provides him an edge in their fight. Furthermore you've not provided me with any showings that prove Caedus or Katarn are better duellists than Dooku. Pretty sure holding off AOTC Yoda and routinely stomping GG are better feats than anything Katarn has shown duelling wise. But by all means make a case.