Hand to hand combat only - meaning the Force can only be used for physical augmentations, precognition and the like. Like-wise, the Spiders can't use their webs and such either.
Fight takes place in the vacant streets of New York City
Standard morals and such apply.
Combatants start 50 meters away.
Team work won't be a problem in regards to Kyle Katarn and Darth Maul
Maul has feats that would mark him in the 10 ton range, and Katarn has kicked Yuuzhan Vong Warriors with sufficient enough distance that a bomb attached to the aforementioned Warrior, didn't effect Kyle in the slightest.
Maul has feats that would mark him in the 10 ton range, and Katarn has kicked Yuuzhan Vong Warriors with sufficient enough distance that a bomb attached to the aforementioned Warrior, didn't effect Kyle in the slightest.
Maul has feats that would mark him in the 10 ton range, and Katarn has kicked Yuuzhan Vong Warriors with sufficient enough distance that a bomb attached to the aforementioned Warrior, didn't effect Kyle in the slightest.
What feats does Maul have in the 10 ton range?
Yeah, this is something I'm interested in hearing. :)
Maul has feats that would mark him in the 10 ton range, and Katarn has kicked Yuuzhan Vong Warriors with sufficient enough distance that a bomb attached to the aforementioned Warrior, didn't effect Kyle in the slightest.
Maul's a 10 tonner? I'm not sure if Kyle's feat is good enough but maybe it is.
Maul has feats that would mark him in the 10 ton range, and Katarn has kicked Yuuzhan Vong Warriors with sufficient enough distance that a bomb attached to the aforementioned Warrior, didn't effect Kyle in the slightest.
What feats does Maul have in the 10 ton range?
Yeah, this is something I'm interested in hearing. :)
Considering it takes a ton or so (from my research at least), to rip the typical human head off from the bone, and considering Maul ripped the head off of a creature in Varactyl who's bone density and muscle mass far outweigh a normal humans - without actively augmenting himself with the Force - I don't think it's a far stretch to conclude he's in the 10 ton range, or so. To put it in perspective with humans - four horses, with ropes attached to each human limb, going full throttle has had trouble in the past, tearing humans apart. Again, these are normal humans and not armored monstrosities that could eat us whole, LAWL. Now can Maul actually lift 10 tons? probably not - but the Force he generates with punches/kicks/quick grips - should be in that range when RL Welterweight boxers are throwing punches with the force of half ton, never mind Cain Velasquez striking power measured in excess of a full ton. And Darth Maul makes the two RL fighters I name look like...literally, nothing in comparison the feats he pulled without actively amping himself with the Force.
Maul has feats that would mark him in the 10 ton range, and Katarn has kicked Yuuzhan Vong Warriors with sufficient enough distance that a bomb attached to the aforementioned Warrior, didn't effect Kyle in the slightest.
What feats does Maul have in the 10 ton range?
Yeah, this is something I'm interested in hearing. :)
Maul has feats that would mark him in the 10 ton range, and Katarn has kicked Yuuzhan Vong Warriors with sufficient enough distance that a bomb attached to the aforementioned Warrior, didn't effect Kyle in the slightest.
What feats does Maul have in the 10 ton range?
Yeah, this is something I'm interested in hearing. :)
Considering it takes a ton or so (from my research at least), to rip the typical human head off from the bone, and considering Maul ripped the head off of a creature in Varactyl who's bone density and muscle mass far outweigh a normal humans - without actively augmenting himself with the Force - I don't think it's a far stretch to conclude he's in the 10 ton range, or so. To put it in perspective with humans - four horses, with ropes attached to each human limb, going full throttle has had trouble in the past, tearing humans apart. Again, these are normal humans and not armored monstrosities that could eat us whole, LAWL. Now can Maul actually lift 10 tons? probably not - but the Force he generates with punches/kicks/quick grips - should be in that range when RL Welterweight boxers are throwing punches with the force of half ton, never mind Cain Velasquez striking power measured in excess of a full ton. And Darth Maul makes the two RL fighters I name look like...literally, nothing in comparison the feats he pulled without actively amping himself with the Force.
Maul has feats that would mark him in the 10 ton range, and Katarn has kicked Yuuzhan Vong Warriors with sufficient enough distance that a bomb attached to the aforementioned Warrior, didn't effect Kyle in the slightest.
What feats does Maul have in the 10 ton range?
Yeah, this is something I'm interested in hearing. :)
Considering it takes a ton or so (from my research at least), to rip the typical human head off from the bone, and considering Maul ripped the head off of a creature in Varactyl who's bone density and muscle mass far outweigh a normal humans - without actively augmenting himself with the Force - I don't think it's a far stretch to conclude he's in the 10 ton range, or so. To put it in perspective with humans - four horses, with ropes attached to each human limb, going full throttle has had trouble in the past, tearing humans apart. Again, these are normal humans and not armored monstrosities that could eat us whole, LAWL. Now can Maul actually lift 10 tons? probably not - but the Force he generates with punches/kicks/quick grips - should be in that range when RL Welterweight boxers are throwing punches with the force of half ton, never mind Cain Velasquez striking power measured in excess of a full ton. And Darth Maul makes the two RL fighters I name look like...literally, nothing in comparison the feats he pulled without actively amping himself with the Force.
This is side splitting.
Mind actually forming an rebuttal to why, my n00bish, friend? :)
@dccomicsrule2011: I wouldn't say it's implausible for Maul to pull off a 10 ton feat, though I imagine it'd be maximum effort. In general his striking power is in the range of crushing durasteel metal or flat out shattering bone, so it depends on if Spider/Kaine can survive enough of those to return their strikes in kind. Maul can also attack nerve endings, or sensitive areas like the throat and eyes, or attack with his horns for piercing damage, so he has some options here.
@dccomicsrule2011: Pretty impressive all though I am not sure if that is a 10 ton feat. In regards to striking power does Maul actually have striking feats which are in the 10 ton zone? I am aware of Cain Velasquez's punching power and I actually saw that video a few weeks ago, but if Maul doesn't have the feats than I can't say he hits that hard. Regardless using Peters strength feats in recent years 10 tons isn't really a lot of strength compared to him. Even using Peters lower end strength feats in recent years he caught the swing of flag smashers robotic arm with 0 strain and using one arm--which had the strength of 100 men--and effortlessly ripped it off.
@dccomicsrule2011, The general premise that Maul is a 10-tonner would be a lot more believable If you relied on feats then on the basis of incomplete fan-calcs, that mistake applications of strike force with lifting strength. As for Maul's performance without force argumentation, his fight with Pre Visla; as shown in TCW and documented in The Clone Wars: Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy, tell us that Visla was a legitimate challenge for Maul and that despite having obvious opportunities to do so, he wasn't ripping off limbs : https://youtu.be/zEu_U78XFg4?t=2m30s, which means that the Varactyl feat was either PIS, or you've taken in out of context. I'll go for a mix of the two.
“Intriguing creatures, have you seen them, brother? Fifteen meters long.” The Chadra-Fan grinned. “You see, it’s a fascinating thing, the way the sinuses in their armor-plated skulls are designed to funnel and amplify sound, to create a certain specific type of noise when the air passes through—”
Maul nodded. “It’s done.”
[...]
In front of him, Jagannath had taken hold of the varactyl’s boiled skull. With a final jerk, he snapped it completely free from its neck and yanked it upward. The scorched gray rag of the thing’s tongue tumbled free and dangled from its mandible like a limp rag of surrender.
Silence fell through the hallway. Dismounting, the Zabrak hoisted its massive skull up over his head, the inmates and even some of the guards taking a step back as he carried the grisly trophy forward down the length of the concourse.
―Maul: Lockdown
And yeah, he did it without Force augmentation, as he was keeping his identity as a Sith concealed (which is why the text refers to him as "Jagannath", that was his alias).
@dccomicsrule2011, The general premise that Maul is a 10-tonner would be a lot more believable If you relied on feats then on the basis of incomplete fan-calcs,
I must ask, can you read? I used a feat and scaled of it using RL facts. I didn't just DBZ like crunch numbers, for LAL's. You can cry fan-calculation all you want - but the logic is sound enough, and if you can actively refute it point for point, I'm just going to accept the fact that you can't.
Ah....no, I didn't really.Regardless, in fiction they kinda go hand and hand anyway - so this point is mute. If Maul can rip heads off using that amount of force (multiple ton range at least), with no Force amping, I don't see why he can't exert that kind of force when coupling that strength with his insane speed and martial skills either.
Using Vizsla as basis for anything is flawed within itself; as Mandalorians are historically known for keeping up with Jedi, despite not having any notable powers to enhance their physical capabilities. It's how the Fett floors Jedi who tyupically operate faster than the human eye can even follow, and crumble rock within the palm of their hands.
ILS already posted the quote above, so you can see for your self in regards to the out of context, shit. As for PIS, Maul consistency sports feats that suggest he could rip humans apart, whether he's breaking free of Durasteel cuffs with no leverage, or kicking through torso's. If anything, him not tearing through Vizsla, is inconsistent with what maul usually does. But ya know, we're talking about a kids show here - so yeah, I doubt that would even be appropriate, setting aside that Mando aura he carries around with him.
I'm not really a fan of applying real life physics to comics where possible. Peter's striking power doesn't really match up to closely with his lifting strength either, so if we where too use the method of measuring Cain's punches to measure Peter's punches, we would probably come up with a figure which far exceeds Peter Strength limits, at least the ones we usually apply to him in comics. I don't see it as impossible that Maul could lift 10 tons plus given his strength feats, if he force amped himself though. Most of Maul's strength feats are pretty casual, such as throwing a Javelin about a mile at a trooper's face and killing them, or Overpowering his brother in a duel as well as the feats you mentioned before.
But as Jashro44 said though, Peter going by relatively tame showings is quite above Ten Tonnes. For example, Silk is alot weaker than Peter, and with a casual swipe of her arm completely flipped over an SUV intent on running her over. Considering they weigh 6,000 lbs, the SUV was moving at least 30 mph by conservative estimates and she did it with one arm without trying, that's already pushing 10 tonnes. If we want to push things further, Peter in the Danger Room was able to destroy a robot built for fighting Colossus using his leverage alone. More importantly, Rockslide, a 70 tonner, was unsure he could actually help Peter escape. And these are all quite recent feats < 1 year.
For me, as ILS said, it falls down to Maul's and Kyle's abilities to hit vulnerable areas. The two are faster, and those types of attacks will be more damaging. Peter and Kaine are vulnerable to nerve strikes in particular, Mockingbird recently stated that she knew 14 ways to kill Peter due to her Shield Training (although obviously she would lose to Peter). It would probably be more effective on Kaine, due to his lack of formal training, and his slower combat speed in comparison to Peter.
I'm not really a fan of applying real life physics to comics where possible.
Well, that's completely fair. Aiming to try a different method of debating from the norm this time around, KEK. I can't stand RL physics in comics either.
For me, as ILS said, it falls down to Maul's and Kyle's abilities to hit vulnerable areas. The two are faster, and those types of attacks will be more damaging. Peter and Kaine are vulnerable to nerve strikes in particular, Mockingbird recently stated that she knew 14 ways to kill Peter due to her Shield Training (although obviously she would lose to Peter). It would probably be more effective on Kaine, due to his lack of formal training, and his slower combat speed in comparison to Peter.
When Maul was three he intimately knew the weaknesses of the anatomy of nearly every species on Mustafar, including the near-human Mustafarians:
However, Maul had learned much during his time with the droid in the training room. The room had special exercise equipment and weapons, as well as computer consoles that had been programmed to educate and challenge Maul's mind and mechanical abilities. He could identify hundreds of star systems, assemble complicated three-dimensional puzzles, and pinpoint the vulnerabilities of nearly every native creature on Mustafar.
―The Wrath of Darth Maul
(I imaigne he'd have developed similar knowledge to human beings).
When he was seven years old, he left a much larger, much older cadet at the Orsis academy convulsing from nerve strikes:
"Dalok tried to roll away from Maul, but Maul stayed on him, slamming and driving his knees into the nerve dusters in the Abyssin's shoulders. Dalok was flat on his back as he convulsed, his arms flopping uselessly beside him. Dalok passed out."
―The Wrath of Darth Maul
Six years later, he was considered a master of numerous unarmed martial arts at the aforementioned academy:
Six years had passed since his arrival on Orsis. Taller and stronger, he still did not know his own age, but based on his observations of similar humanoids, he assumed he was about thirteen years old. Although he was already considered a master of numerous martial arts, he still had difficulty working as part of a team.
―The Wrath of Darth Maul
I'd say based on that alone his technical knowledge is fairly stacked. He showed in the book Maul: Lockdown that his M.O is to attack sensitive areas, as well; he went straight for the throat against the Vong warrior he fought, ripped out the wampa's heart, snapped the neck of pretty much everyone else (or in one guy's case, stabbed him in the throat with a horn-butt), and he has this showing against two gang leaders where he incapacitates them non-lethally:
The Zabrak reacted faster than either he or Nailhead could. Seizing Nailhead from behind, the one called Jagannath hooked his fingers into the flesh-eater’s nostrils and yanked his head straight back to expose his throat before driving his fist into the cartilage of Nailhead’s windpipe, dropping him to the floor in a wheezing, debilitated heap. Strabo saw the Zabrak pivot, shooting his foot straight up so that it hit Strabo in the solar plexus, leaving him doubled over and sucking air.
@i_like_swords: Thanks for the info. However the reason I am not sure if its a 10 ton feat is because of reasons mentioned by Laflux, and also there is a big difference between 1 and 10 tons. Still I didn't think Maul was that strong so its still very impressive.
@jashro44: That's his best strength feat that I know of, but he has other good ones, namely:
Destroying durasteel combat droids with his fists and feet
Easily shattering any given bone on the human body with his strikes
Lifting and choking a Yuuzhan Vong warrior (7 foot tall, armored superhuman capable of fighting Jedi), and crushing his neck with such force that blood poured from his mouth and eyes
Striking through the torso of a Wampa and crushing it's heart in his bare hand
And as Laflux said, he also threw a spear about the distance of a mile or so, fast enough to smash through clone armor:
I think the Wampa feat for Maul is more impressive tbh, Wampas can tank blaster fire, it requires heavy artillery just to drive them off and then can destroy ice walls with little effort and destroy entire colonies.
@killerwasp: Well the Wampa stands a good deal taller than a Wookiee, can stand up to 3 meters talll. Can tank multiple laser shots from an Imperial Probe Droid, among as I said being able to destroy ice walls with hardly any effort and needing heavy artillery just to drive them off. A swipe from their claws can kill near instantly, as Luke was pretty much on the verge of dying, his face gashed deeply and cheekbone crushed(although the Wampa wanted Luke alive, so really the Wampa can most likely kill with a single claw swipe) and they can snap Tauntaun necks which a Tauntaun is noted as having a strong hide and being stubborn.
@wolfrazer: Yeah curious, I've seen them in games, and heavy weaponry was useless I remember that, but I do recall wookies being fairly strong themselves, I also figured due to them prolly be smarter fighter they'd stand a good chance. I'd prolly say maybe 5 wookies or so?
I think the Wampa feat for Maul is more impressive tbh, Wampas can tank blaster fire, it requires heavy artillery just to drive them off and then can destroy ice walls with little effort and destroy entire colonies.
The beasts came to us, crashing through our carefully carved ice walls and snow as if those walls were made of flat-foil they came.
- Taken from Galaxy Guide 3: ESB- Horror by Night
Destroying ice walls with ease.
The beings of Echo Base had all seen much worse than the wampas in the fanged, howling monsters of the Empire. They held off the beasts with courage, determinations, innovation and some heavy artillery. The creatures outside the base had fled. They must have had their fill of heavy blaster fire, for we never saw them again.
Taken from Galaxy Guide 3: ESB- Horror by Night
Needing heavy artillery/heavy weps to drive them off.
Through extensive research into the records of other creatures similar to the wampa, evidence has been found that suggest mass coordinated attacks laid waste to entire outposts of colonists. The Alliance's experience with the beasts bears out this theory.
- Taken from Galaxy Guide 3: ESB- Horror by Night
Alright so they can't solo a colony, but they have intel enough to coordinate attacks on them and lay waste. Even still though.
Luke's hand blaster never cleared its holster. The huge claw of the Wampa Ice Creature struck him hard and flat against his face, knocking him off the Tauntaun and into the freezing snow.
Unconsciousness came swiftly to Luke, so swiftly that he never even heard the pitiful screams of the Tauntaun nor the abrupt silence following the sound of a snapping neck.
- Taken from ESB novel
Knocking Luke off his Tauntaun into unconsciousness and then snapping his Tauntaun's neck.
But the disturbing result of the near disaster was that Luke had been attacked by something. His face was deeply gashed and cheekbone crushed.
- Taken from Galaxy Guide 3: ESB- Data journal of Voren Na'al
Straight forward.
The mound began to shiver, then to quake. Whatever existed beneath it was deeply irritated by the robot's probing laser beam.
Snow began to fall away from the mound in sizable clumps when, at one end, two eyes showed through the mass of white.
Huge yellow eyes peered like twin points of fire at the mechanical creature that continued to blast away with its painful beams. The eyes burned with primeval hatred for the thing that had interrupted its slumber.
The mound shook again, with a roar that nearly destroyed the probe droid's auditory sensors. It zoomed back several meters, widening the space between it and the creature. The droid had never before encountered a Wampa Ice Creature; its computers advised that the beast be dealt with expeditiously.
The droid made an internal adjustment to regulate the potency of its laser beam. Less than a moment later the beam was at maximum intensity. The machine aimed the laser at the creature, enveloping it in a great flaming and smoking cloud. Seconds later the few remaining particles of the Wampa were swept away by the icy winds.
The smoke disappeared, leaving behind no physical evidence -save for a large depression in the snow - that an Ice Creature had ever been there.
- Taken from ESB novel
The Probe droid blasted away at the Wampa which had been sleeping, only getting irritated at being woken up. It takes the Probe droid's full laser power which completely disintegrates the Wampa.
Taking note the Probe droid was able to destroy a Rebel outpost.
Just then the voice of a Rebel trooper cut in through the console's comlink speaker. 'This is Echo Station Three-Eight. Unidentified object is in our scope. It's just over the ridge. We should have visual contact in about-' Without warning the voice filled with fear. 'What the-? Oh, no!'
A burst of radio static followed, then the transmission broke off completely.
@wolfrazer: You sir, are a legend. Thank you for bringing to light the fact that Maul beat a creature of this magnitude with his bare hands and without using the Force.
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