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#1 Posted by geraldthesloth (33313 posts) - - Show Bio

who wins?

the Cube Being or the Ruler of Apokolips

#2 Posted by Dreadmaster (16776 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Kubik can win

#3 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
Darkseid uses the Omega Beams to teleport Kubik to a Pocket Dimension in the Marvel Mulitverse
#4 Posted by Dreadmaster (16776 posts) - - Show Bio

I will switch sides

#5 Posted by Emerald_General_Jai (2306 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkseid.

#6 Posted by geraldthesloth (33313 posts) - - Show Bio

Im Goin Kubik.

#7 Posted by High Revolutionary (3160 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
"

@geraldthesloth said:

"Im Goin Kubik."


 

Me too "
Me Three
#8 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
Because.....
#9 Posted by High Revolutionary (3160 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
" Because..... "
A really powerful reality warping cosmic cube >  The God who got owned by a set of stairs.
#10 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@High Revolutionary said:
" @King Saturn said:
" Because..... "
A really powerful reality warping cosmic cube >  The God who got owned by a set of stairs. "
Thats Just a General Statement though... That God who got owned by those Set of Stairs should still be able to teleport Kubik out of his Dimension via the Omega Beams... Kubik is powerful but he aint a Top Tier Cosmic Force
#11 Posted by High Revolutionary (3160 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
" Thats Just a General Statement though... That God who got owned by those Set of Stairs should still be able to teleport Kubik out of his Dimension via the Omega Beams... Kubik is powerful but he aint a Top Tier Cosmic Force "
Well I'm sure Darkseid could do any number of things to Kubik, and the same can be said for Kubik.  Those detailed need to be sorted out by the writers.

All in all I see Kubiks powers above Darkseids.  So I say Kubik.
#12 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@High Revolutionary said:
" @King Saturn said:
" Thats Just a General Statement though... That God who got owned by those Set of Stairs should still be able to teleport Kubik out of his Dimension via the Omega Beams... Kubik is powerful but he aint a Top Tier Cosmic Force "
Well I'm sure Darkseid could do any number of things to Kubik, and the same can be said for Kubik.  Those detailed need to be sorted out by the writers.All in all I see Kubiks powers above Darkseids.  So I say Kubik. "
Reality Warping is great and all... but Kubik has no answer for the Omega Beams if they hit him...
#13 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
" @King Saturn said:
"@High Revolutionary said:
" @King Saturn said:
" Thats Just a General Statement though... That God who got owned by those Set of Stairs should still be able to teleport Kubik out of his Dimension via the Omega Beams... Kubik is powerful but he aint a Top Tier Cosmic Force "
Well I'm sure Darkseid could do any number of things to Kubik, and the same can be said for Kubik.  Those detailed need to be sorted out by the writers.All in all I see Kubiks powers above Darkseids.  So I say Kubik. "
Reality Warping is great and all... but Kubik has no answer for the Omega Beams if they hit him... "
as a cube being he is from another dimesion in the marvel multiverse anyway, he got there by a series of force fields that created the cube, he is now sentient so I bet he can just come back on his own now. "
So What... If They Fight in a Neutral Universe and DS sends him back to his own Dimension in the Marvel Multiverse... he technically has lost via BFR


#14 Posted by High Revolutionary (3160 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
"So What... If They Fight in a Neutral Universe and DS sends him back to his own Dimension in the Marvel Multiverse... he technically has lost via BFR


"
Please, Kubik would do that to DS without needing to resort to an omega beam
#15 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@High Revolutionary said:
" @King Saturn said:
"So What... If They Fight in a Neutral Universe and DS sends him back to his own Dimension in the Marvel Multiverse... he technically has lost via BFR


"
Please, Kubik would do that to DS without needing to resort to an omega beam "
Not if the Omega Beams hit Kubik first... which they could
#16 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
" @King Saturn said:
"@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
" @King Saturn said:
"@High Revolutionary said:
" @King Saturn said:
" Thats Just a General Statement though... That God who got owned by those Set of Stairs should still be able to teleport Kubik out of his Dimension via the Omega Beams... Kubik is powerful but he aint a Top Tier Cosmic Force "
Well I'm sure Darkseid could do any number of things to Kubik, and the same can be said for Kubik.  Those detailed need to be sorted out by the writers.All in all I see Kubiks powers above Darkseids.  So I say Kubik. "
Reality Warping is great and all... but Kubik has no answer for the Omega Beams if they hit him... "
as a cube being he is from another dimesion in the marvel multiverse anyway, he got there by a series of force fields that created the cube, he is now sentient so I bet he can just come back on his own now. "
So What... If They Fight in a Neutral Universe and DS sends him back to his own Dimension in the Marvel Multiverse... he technically has lost via BFR


"
BFR is only a win if the person you do it to can't come back, I think Kubik can come back. "
you think but you are unsure... and sending Kubik to the Marvel Multiverse is only one option... DS could send Kubik to a Pocket Dimension in the DC Multiverse where the Cosmic Cubes have No Power at all... rendering him powerless essentially
#17 Posted by High Revolutionary (3160 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
"Not if the Omega Beams hit Kubik first... which they could "
"Shampoo is better...no, Conditioner is better, I go on the hair and make it silky smooth..."

AS POTBT correctly pointed out, Kubik will likely return, or null out the transfer altogether.
#18 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@High Revolutionary said:
" @King Saturn said:
"Not if the Omega Beams hit Kubik first... which they could "
"Shampoo is better...no, Conditioner is better, I go on the hair and make it silky smooth..."AS POTBT correctly pointed out, Kubik will likely return, or null out the transfer altogether. "
Kubik may not be able to return if he is placed in a Pocket Dimension in the DC Multiverse...
#19 Posted by High Revolutionary (3160 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
" Kubik may not be able to return if he is placed in a Pocket Dimension in the DC Multiverse... "
You don't know this.
#20 Posted by DC_Marvel_1000 (12062 posts) - - Show Bio
@High Revolutionary said:
" @King Saturn said:
" Kubik may not be able to return if he is placed in a Pocket Dimension in the DC Multiverse... "
You don't know this. "
it should work, the cosmic cube does not exist inside the DCU and if DS did this he would have no power at all
#21 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
" @King Saturn said:
"@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
" @King Saturn said:
"@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
" @King Saturn said:
"@High Revolutionary said:
" @King Saturn said:
" Thats Just a General Statement though... That God who got owned by those Set of Stairs should still be able to teleport Kubik out of his Dimension via the Omega Beams... Kubik is powerful but he aint a Top Tier Cosmic Force "
Well I'm sure Darkseid could do any number of things to Kubik, and the same can be said for Kubik.  Those detailed need to be sorted out by the writers.All in all I see Kubiks powers above Darkseids.  So I say Kubik. "
Reality Warping is great and all... but Kubik has no answer for the Omega Beams if they hit him... "
as a cube being he is from another dimesion in the marvel multiverse anyway, he got there by a series of force fields that created the cube, he is now sentient so I bet he can just come back on his own now. "
So What... If They Fight in a Neutral Universe and DS sends him back to his own Dimension in the Marvel Multiverse... he technically has lost via BFR


"
BFR is only a win if the person you do it to can't come back, I think Kubik can come back. "
you think but you are unsure... and sending Kubik to the Marvel Multiverse is only one option... DS could send Kubik to a Pocket Dimension in the DC Multiverse where the Cosmic Cubes have No Power at all... rendering him powerless essentially"
I'm not unsure, all of this is based on speculation, Kubik i already from a place that is supposed to be beyond the normal Marvel multiverse, human scientist can access this point a conscious cube should have no problem teleporting back from some obscure pocket dimension, which is still dependent on whether or not DS is gonna get chance to even use it. "
This Means Nothing though because Kubik is still a product of the Marvel Actuality... not DC. It was already shown on occasions that some Marvel Forces dont work within the DC Actuality... such as the Infinity Gauntlet... if Kubik is place in an unknown Dimension outside of his Actuality and within the DC Multiverse... its highly possible he wont have the power to do anything...
#22 Posted by High Revolutionary (3160 posts) - - Show Bio
Regardless, isn't it customary that when two characters have basically the same power, that power isn't used in determining the outcome of the fight?

Or is that reasonable logic too much to be used in the Vine?
#23 Posted by DC_Marvel_1000 (12062 posts) - - Show Bio
@High Revolutionary said:
" Regardless, isn't it customary that when two characters have basically the same power, that power isn't used in determining the outcome of the fight?Or is that reasonable logic too much to be used in the Vine? "
it's not how most fights are done but in this one it is very high due to the OE.
#24 Posted by Wisppeons (3726 posts) - - Show Bio

if his power dont work  in the DCU why make the battle take place in the DCU or is there something I'm missing?

#25 Posted by High Revolutionary (3160 posts) - - Show Bio
@DC_Marvel_1000 said:
" it's not how most fights are done but in this one it is very high due to the OE. "
It's failed on much lesser beings...
#26 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@High Revolutionary said:
" @King Saturn said:
" Kubik may not be able to return if he is placed in a Pocket Dimension in the DC Multiverse... "
You don't know this. "
The Power Cosmic, Cosmic Cubes, Cosmic Eggs, and the Infinity Gauntlet Do Not Exist within the DC Actuality... and in some cases have shown to be Absolutely Powerless there... there is evidence to back up these claims that I am giving you...
#27 Posted by DC_Marvel_1000 (12062 posts) - - Show Bio
@High Revolutionary said:
" @DC_Marvel_1000 said:
" it's not how most fights are done but in this one it is very high due to the OE. "
It's failed on much lesser beings... "
teleporting them? idk about that
#28 Posted by Wisppeons (3726 posts) - - Show Bio
@Wisppeons said:
" if his power dont work  in the DCU why make the battle take place in the DCU or is there something I'm missing? "
can I get an answer to this?
#29 Posted by AtPhantom (14467 posts) - - Show Bio
@DC_Marvel_1000 said:
" @High Revolutionary said:
" @DC_Marvel_1000 said:
" it's not how most fights are done but in this one it is very high due to the OE. "
It's failed on much lesser beings... "
teleporting them? idk about that "
He never failed on teleporting anyone.
#30 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@High Revolutionary said:
" Regardless, isn't it customary that when two characters have basically the same power, that power isn't used in determining the outcome of the fight?Or is that reasonable logic too much to be used in the Vine? "
I have implied nothing of Darkseid actually battling Kubik... all I have said is that Darkseid can teleport Kubik away from him into a location in the DC Actuality where he could be rendered helpless there... this feat isnt a feat of Overpowering Kubik... merely one of intellect rather than muscle

@Wisppeons said:
" if his power dont work  in the DCU why make the battle take place in the DCU or is there something I'm missing? "
The Fight isnt in the DCU... but Darkseid could teleport him there via the Omega Beams



#31 Posted by High Revolutionary (3160 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
" I have implied nothing of Darkseid actually battling Kubik... all I have said is that Darkseid can teleport Kubik away from him into a location in the DC Actuality where he could be rendered helpless there... this feat isnt a feat of Overpowering Kubik... merely one of intellect rather than muscle
"
@AtPhantom said:
" He never failed on teleporting anyone. "

So why didn't Darkseid ever used it when Doomsday was destroying Apokalipse in Hunter Prey?

#32 Posted by DC_Marvel_1000 (12062 posts) - - Show Bio
@High Revolutionary said:
" @King Saturn said:
" I have implied nothing of Darkseid actually battling Kubik... all I have said is that Darkseid can teleport Kubik away from him into a location in the DC Actuality where he could be rendered helpless there... this feat isnt a feat of Overpowering Kubik... merely one of intellect rather than muscle
"
@AtPhantom said:
" He never failed on teleporting anyone. "
So why didn't Darkseid ever used it when Doomsday was destroying Apokalipse in Hunter Prey? "
he was immune to the beams after DS killed him with them before
#33 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@High Revolutionary said:
" @King Saturn said:
" I have implied nothing of Darkseid actually battling Kubik... all I have said is that Darkseid can teleport Kubik away from him into a location in the DC Actuality where he could be rendered helpless there... this feat isnt a feat of Overpowering Kubik... merely one of intellect rather than muscle
"
@AtPhantom said:
" He never failed on teleporting anyone. "
So why didn't Darkseid ever used it when Doomsday was destroying Apokalipse in Hunter Prey? "
Because the Writers have More Power than any Comic Book Character...
#34 Posted by High Revolutionary (3160 posts) - - Show Bio
@DC_Marvel_1000 said:
"he was immune to the beams after DS killed him with them before "
Darkseid didn't use them to teleport Doomsday.
#35 Posted by DC_Marvel_1000 (12062 posts) - - Show Bio
@High Revolutionary said:
" @DC_Marvel_1000 said:
"he was immune to the beams after DS killed him with them before "
Darkseid didn't use them to teleport Doomsday. "
he still became immune to the OE.
#36 Posted by High Revolutionary (3160 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
"Because the Writers have More Power than any Comic Book Character...
"
And the fans for that matter...


#37 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@High Revolutionary said:
" @DC_Marvel_1000 said:
"he was immune to the beams after DS killed him with them before "
Darkseid didn't use them to teleport Doomsday. "
read my last post...

Its the Writers... the Writers dictate everything a Comic Book Character does... I mean why do you think we have all of these weird scenarios where certain characters are able to defeat or hold off others ? Spider-Man beating Firelord ? Silver Surfer afraid of Dracula because he threw Rats on him ? Black Panther is able to put Silver Surfer in an Armlock and hold him ? Its all about the Writing... whether is Good or Shotty at times...
#38 Posted by High Revolutionary (3160 posts) - - Show Bio
@DC_Marvel_1000 said:
" he still became immune to the OE. "
Doomsday adapts to what killed him, not what attacked him.

Darkseid never actually intended to teleport Doomsday anyway.  It never occurred to him.  That's my point.
#39 Posted by High Revolutionary (3160 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
" read my last post...

Its the Writers... the Writers dictate everything a Comic Book Character does... I mean why do you think we have all of these weird scenarios where certain characters are able to defeat or hold off others ? Spider-Man beating Firelord ? Silver Surfer afraid of Dracula because he threw Rats on him ? Black Panther is able to put Silver Surfer in an Armlock and hold him ? Its all about the Writing... whether is Good or Shotty at times...
"
Granted.  So why are we arguing over the details of the fight, when we should be arguing powers? Especially, when we both know Kubik's powers are greater?
#40 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
" @King Saturn said:
"@High Revolutionary said:
" Regardless, isn't it customary that when two characters have basically the same power, that power isn't used in determining the outcome of the fight?Or is that reasonable logic too much to be used in the Vine? "
I have implied nothing of Darkseid actually battling Kubik... all I have said is that Darkseid can teleport Kubik away from him into a location in the DC Actuality where he could be rendered helpless there... this feat isnt a feat of Overpowering Kubik... merely one of intellect rather than muscle

@Wisppeons said:
" if his power dont work  in the DCU why make the battle take place in the DCU or is there something I'm missing? "
The Fight isnt in the DCU... but Darkseid could teleport him there via the Omega Beams



"
You say a cosmic cube can't function in DCU, please give examples, cause they can charge Green Lantern Rings. "
Interesting... now here is the problem... when these Green Lantern Power Rings were getting charged did this actually happen within the DC Mulitverse or were the Lanterns in the Marvel Multiverse when this happened ?
#41 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@High Revolutionary said:
" @King Saturn said:
" read my last post...

Its the Writers... the Writers dictate everything a Comic Book Character does... I mean why do you think we have all of these weird scenarios where certain characters are able to defeat or hold off others ? Spider-Man beating Firelord ? Silver Surfer afraid of Dracula because he threw Rats on him ? Black Panther is able to put Silver Surfer in an Armlock and hold him ? Its all about the Writing... whether is Good or Shotty at times...
"
Granted.  So why are we arguing over the details of the fight, when we should be arguing powers? Especially, when we both know Kubik's powers are greater? "
I dont have to argue over the powers... I seem to have struck a nerve with you all with DS teleporting Kubik to a pocket dimension where he could be powerless... so I will stick with it
#42 Posted by DC_Marvel_1000 (12062 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
" @King Saturn said:
"@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
" @King Saturn said:
"@High Revolutionary said:
" Regardless, isn't it customary that when two characters have basically the same power, that power isn't used in determining the outcome of the fight?Or is that reasonable logic too much to be used in the Vine? "
I have implied nothing of Darkseid actually battling Kubik... all I have said is that Darkseid can teleport Kubik away from him into a location in the DC Actuality where he could be rendered helpless there... this feat isnt a feat of Overpowering Kubik... merely one of intellect rather than muscle

@Wisppeons said:
" if his power dont work  in the DCU why make the battle take place in the DCU or is there something I'm missing? "
The Fight isnt in the DCU... but Darkseid could teleport him there via the Omega Beams



"
You say a cosmic cube can't function in DCU, please give examples, cause they can charge Green Lantern Rings. "
Interesting... now here is the problem... when these Green Lantern Power Rings were getting charged did this actually happen within the DC Mulitverse or were the Lanterns in the Marvel Multiverse when this happened ? "
why does it matter, cosmic cubes don't tap energy they are self contained energy matrixes, they are their own source of power to say taking them out of Marvel will render them powerless is far fetched since they come from a place that is supposed to be outside of Marvels multiverse and work just fine. "
it does matter, since in the marvel multiverse they still have there powers, if this was in DCU they would not
#43 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio

kubik wins. the reason the guantlet didnt work is "A" ruling from the living tribunal "B" it was a non canon story.  :P

also DS omega's can be stopped by beings more powerful then him or items that enchanted beyond his power lvl, exhibit "C" wonderwoman and her bracelets.

#44 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
" @King Saturn said:
"@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
" @King Saturn said:
"@High Revolutionary said:
" Regardless, isn't it customary that when two characters have basically the same power, that power isn't used in determining the outcome of the fight?Or is that reasonable logic too much to be used in the Vine? "
I have implied nothing of Darkseid actually battling Kubik... all I have said is that Darkseid can teleport Kubik away from him into a location in the DC Actuality where he could be rendered helpless there... this feat isnt a feat of Overpowering Kubik... merely one of intellect rather than muscle

@Wisppeons said:
" if his power dont work  in the DCU why make the battle take place in the DCU or is there something I'm missing? "
The Fight isnt in the DCU... but Darkseid could teleport him there via the Omega Beams



"
You say a cosmic cube can't function in DCU, please give examples, cause they can charge Green Lantern Rings. "
Interesting... now here is the problem... when these Green Lantern Power Rings were getting charged did this actually happen within the DC Mulitverse or were the Lanterns in the Marvel Multiverse when this happened ? "
why does it matter, cosmic cubes don't tap energy they are self contained energy matrixes, they are their own source of power to say taking them out of Marvel will render them powerless is far fetched since they come from a place that is supposed to be outside of Marvels multiverse and work just fine. "
Because they still exist within the Marvel Actuality itself... thats Why It Matters. And what do you think the Infinity Gauntlet is... its an even greater source of power than a Cosmic Cube is... and it didnt work at all within the DC Actuality...
#45 Posted by Mr. Exfed (1127 posts) - - Show Bio

Kubik

#46 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@castleking said:
" kubik wins. the reason the guantlet didnt work is "A" ruling from the living tribunal "B" it was a non canon story.  :Palso DS omega's can be stopped by beings more powerful then him or items that enchanted beyond his power lvl, exhibit "C" wonderwoman and her bracelets. "
When has the Omega Beams failed to Teleport someone ? Thats Right... Never

You Say That the Infinity Gauntlet didnt work in the DC Universe because it was a Non Canon... yet you and your homeboys use Non Canon Crossovers to try and make points...

I think you guys are a little upset that I found a way for Darkseid to win... when you thought it was just an easy win for Kubik...
#47 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
" @castleking said:
" kubik wins. the reason the guantlet didnt work is "A" ruling from the living tribunal "B" it was a non canon story.  :Palso DS omega's can be stopped by beings more powerful then him or items that enchanted beyond his power lvl, exhibit "C" wonderwoman and her bracelets. "
When has the Omega Beams failed to Teleport someone ? Thats Right... Never

You Say That the Infinity Gauntlet didnt work in the DC Universe because it was a Non Canon... yet you and your homeboys use Non Canon Crossovers to try and make points...

I think you guys are a little upset that I found a way for Darkseid to win... when you thought it was just an easy win for Kubik...
"
are you mad? remember the gems shut down the minute they are brought together hence warlock in the infinity war and strange during the infinity watch series.  wonderwoman has blocked his OB's via bracelets and superman has stopped or slowed it down via his heat vision...  :P
#48 Posted by Mr. Exfed (1127 posts) - - Show Bio

WW was able to deflect them because her bracelets were made by the Aeigis and Darkseid has had plenty of chances to kill Superman with the OB...He would of killed him in Superman/Batman had Supergirl not saved him

He would of killed Supes on New Genesis if he didnt need him for his plans

#49 Posted by King Saturn (222808 posts) - - Show Bio
@castleking said:
" @King Saturn said:
" @castleking said:
" kubik wins. the reason the guantlet didnt work is "A" ruling from the living tribunal "B" it was a non canon story.  :Palso DS omega's can be stopped by beings more powerful then him or items that enchanted beyond his power lvl, exhibit "C" wonderwoman and her bracelets. "
When has the Omega Beams failed to Teleport someone ? Thats Right... Never

You Say That the Infinity Gauntlet didnt work in the DC Universe because it was a Non Canon... yet you and your homeboys use Non Canon Crossovers to try and make points...

I think you guys are a little upset that I found a way for Darkseid to win... when you thought it was just an easy win for Kubik...
"
are you mad? remember the gems shut down the minute they are brought together hence warlock in the infinity war and strange during the infinity watch series.  wonderwoman has blocked his OB's via bracelets and superman has stopped or slowed it down via his heat vision...  :P "
Wonder Woman and Superman stopping the OB was because of writing as I have said over and over again... he cant always hit his opponents in every comic... otherwise Superman would be a jobber with hundreds of losses on his record... and we cant have that...

And as far as the Infinity Gauntlet having no Power... that was simply that Story Arc.. and if the Infinity Gauntlet is so powerful why wouldnt it work in the DC Universe when there is no Living Tribunal there to Nullify it ?


#50 Posted by High Revolutionary (3160 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
" @High Revolutionary said:
" @King Saturn said:
" read my last post...

Its the Writers... the Writers dictate everything a Comic Book Character does... I mean why do you think we have all of these weird scenarios where certain characters are able to defeat or hold off others ? Spider-Man beating Firelord ? Silver Surfer afraid of Dracula because he threw Rats on him ? Black Panther is able to put Silver Surfer in an Armlock and hold him ? Its all about the Writing... whether is Good or Shotty at times...
"
Granted.  So why are we arguing over the details of the fight, when we should be arguing powers? Especially, when we both know Kubik's powers are greater? "
I dont have to argue over the powers... I seem to have struck a nerve with you all with DS teleporting Kubik to a pocket dimension where he could be powerless... so I will stick with it "
On the contrary, you have just found a loophole where you'd effectively keep the discussion from going anywhere.  You see, it's not about how much you argue, but what you argue.  Because I believe in this, I have to luxury of leaving the table whenever I feel the arguments are going astray.