#1 Posted by Owie (3968 posts) - - Show Bio

Kraven vs Karnak

In character.  Standard versions.  Win by any means.

Two rounds:

1: Direct combat, starting 10' away in a parking lot with sporadic cars and no people.  They are both unarmed.

2. Karnak is coming after Kraven.  Kraven has trapped a section of jungle in preparation for him.  Karnak knows it will be trapped.  He must go through a mile of jungle to get to Kraven.  Karnak has six throwing knives.  Kraven has a machete, spear, blow gun, and bolo.  Can Karnak get to Kraven without being stopped by his traps, and can he beat him when he finds him?  Please take into account Kraven's skill in setting up traps, and Karnak's ability to see weaknesses (which doesn't just include physical weaknesses like the weakest spot in a rock, but also abstract things like the weak spot in a plan).

Who wins each round, and why?

Kraven
Karnak


#2 Posted by jashro44 (25538 posts) - - Show Bio

Does kanark have any other showings against a skilled fighter besides black panther? I know its ABC logic but kraven fared much better against black panther and this is taking into account the fact black panther was unenhanced when kraven fought him....But Kraven also has better stats as well. Unless Karnark has some good skill showings I am not aware of I have to go with kraven.

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#3 Posted by Owie (3968 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44 said:

Does kanark have any other showings against a skilled fighter besides black panther? I know its ABC logic but kraven fared much better against black panther and this is taking into account the fact black panther was unenhanced when kraven fought him....But Kraven also has better stats as well. Unless Karnark has some good skill showings I am not aware of I have to go with kraven.

I actually don't have a huge problem with ABC logic, although I know it's heresy on CV.  
 
Based on what I know, he doesn't have a lot of good feats against other martial artists.  I think he is often used as a way to show off how good other characters are.  So BP takes him down as a way to show off how good BP is.  Mantis takes him down as a way to show how good she is--although note that she says he would have eventually beat her if he had enough time.  Most of his best feats are against strong characters--taking down Thing, or 50' robots, or disarming Thor--or smashing stuff--a reef, sending tremors through several floors of the Baxter Building, etc--or against fodder, when he really gets to show off his stuff and actually does well, doing stuff like beating 4 guys with kicks without his feet touching the ground.  Or doing weird stuff, like vibrating his hand so fast he can hit the Vision when he's intangible.
 
The BP and Mantis fights do illustrate one thing though, which is that he can perhaps be beaten if you get to him fast, before he finds your weakness.  Basically I think if he hits Kraven, he'll take him out.  But Kraven has a chance to beat him first.  But is Kraven at the level of PB or Mantis to do that?  Possibly but I am not sure. So I see this as, can Karnak last long enough to find Kraven's weakness?
 
In terms of their stats, I actually think they're probably about the same. Kraven is probably a little faster.
#4 Posted by jashro44 (25538 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie:Well I am sure that kanark has better technique from what I have seen but he doesn't seem all that competent in applying that technique against other skilled fighters. I recall seeing the mantis scans a while back all though I just sort of skimmed it so I am a little hazy. I doubt that kraven is faster than mantis or black panther (all though he should be on paper) however I don't think he needs to be. He does have a good showing against daredevil so he probably is better than kanark. I can see kraven countering his punch when its thrown. All though does kanark have any showings of taking out people with healing factors? Current kraven has a very impressive healing factor.

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#5 Posted by robertloucksjr (1838 posts) - - Show Bio

Physically Karnak is peak base (no terrigen mist) Inhuman. He should somewhat faster/stronger than Captain America, though they don't write him that way. He should have stomped Black Panther with that and his skills.

#6 Posted by Owie (3968 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44 said:

@Owie:Well I am sure that kanark has better technique from what I have seen but he doesn't seem all that competent in applying that technique against other skilled fighters. I recall seeing the mantis scans a while back all though I just sort of skimmed it so I am a little hazy. I doubt that kraven is faster than mantis or black panther (all though he should be on paper) however I don't think he needs to be. He does have a good showing against daredevil so he probably is better than kanark. I can see kraven countering his punch when its thrown. All though does kanark have any showings of taking out people with healing factors? Current kraven has a very impressive healing factor.

Hmmm, the healing factor is an interesting point.  He could certainly take Kraven out with a well-placed hit if he gets the chance, but is it possible for his "weakness" ability to take out a process, like a healing factor?  That would be really interesting to see at some point.   Kraven should theoretically be pretty darn fast, since he can handle Spider-Man (although a lot of his ability to fight Spider-Man is his superior skill).  But Karnak is also at least somewhat superhumanly fast.  Here's the Mantis fight.
 
@robertloucksjr said:

Physically Karnak is peak base (no terrigen mist) Inhuman. He should somewhat faster/stronger than Captain America, though they don't write him that way. He should have stomped Black Panther with that and his skills.

Yes, Karnak is supposed to be rated at 2 tons, which theoretically is also what Kraven is rated at.  He is also supposed to be somewhat superhumanly fast.  Unfortunately he doesn't get written that way very often.  I can believe the Black Panther fight, in a way--basically the point is that BP is so skilled that he could prevent Karnak from using his weakness-attack on him.  But yes, I think Karnak's speed and skill should have been enough to avoid BP's attack, and thus give him time to counter him.  Like I said above, I think Karnak is used as a way to prove how good more mainstream characters are: by beating him, they show how good they are.  Unfortunately, since he doesn't get any big wins, his own rep goes lower all the time.  Of course, beating characters like Thing and Gorgon (the Inhuman) should count for something, but he needs some wins against some martial artists.
#7 Posted by jashro44 (25538 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: I would think the healing factor complicates things. I mean Kanarks ability tells him how to hurt people right (vital areas and all that stuff)? Technically when someone with a healing factor like say deadpool gets hit by a class 100 like the hulk they take the damage, its just not lasting due to there healing factors. i would think the same would apply with kraven. I can't think of a realistic way he can get around it so I would assume the healing factor would help out a bit unless kanark has taken someone down with a healing factor like kravens. my main issue with kanark is he doesn't have a lot of speed feats from what i can tell other than stuff like vibrating his hand to hurt intangibles. But if this was a reflection of his reflexes he wouldn't have lost to black panther in 2 different decades under 2 different writers. Kraven has caught a spear before and in his appearance in black panther man without fear he did dodge storms lighting so I honestly think he has better speed feats than kanark. I dont think him being super human is an advantage, I believe kraven himself is suppose to be super human so I don't think i can give kanark the edge in speed due to stats.

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#8 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

Karnak pwns

#9 Posted by Owie (3968 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44 said:

@Owie: I would think the healing factor complicates things. I mean Kanarks ability tells him how to hurt people right (vital areas and all that stuff)? Technically when someone with a healing factor like say deadpool gets hit by a class 100 like the hulk they take the damage, its just not lasting due to there healing factors. i would think the same would apply with kraven. I can't think of a realistic way he can get around it so I would assume the healing factor would help out a bit unless kanark has taken someone down with a healing factor like kravens. my main issue with kanark is he doesn't have a lot of speed feats from what i can tell other than stuff like vibrating his hand to hurt intangibles. But if this was a reflection of his reflexes he wouldn't have lost to black panther in 2 different decades under 2 different writers. Kraven has caught a spear before and in his appearance in black panther man without fear he did dodge storms lighting so I honestly think he has better speed feats than kanark. I dont think him being super human is an advantage, I believe kraven himself is suppose to be super human so I don't think i can give kanark the edge in speed due to stats.

Yeah I basically agree.  I'm not sure what Karnak's power would do against a process like a healing factor.  Theoretically he could see the healing factor's weak point, something that would stop it, but I can't imagine what that would be.  (He has done similar abstract things like see the weakness in a plan, or a personality.)  I suppose he could do some kind of nerve touch, I don't know if hat's the kind of thing a healing factor really helps.  His best option would probably be to somehow trap Kraven under some of the cars in the area, I guess, or crack a hole in the earth in get Kraven stuck in it somehow.  But with Kraven's speed and agility that would be hard to do.
#10 Posted by jashro44 (25538 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stronger said:

Karnak pwns

How so?

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#11 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Stronger said:

Karnak pwns

How so?

Karnak can sense weakness.

#12 Posted by jashro44 (25538 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stronger said:

@jashro44 said:

@Stronger said:

Karnak pwns

How so?

Karnak can sense weakness.

This has never helped karnark fight any other skilled fighter. And do you have eviedence he can figure out a way to get around kravens healing factor?

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#13 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Stronger said:

@jashro44 said:

@Stronger said:

Karnak pwns

How so?

Karnak can sense weakness.

This has never helped karnark fight any other skilled fighter. And do you have eviedence he can figure out a way to get around kravens healing factor?

Da fuq......

Kraven has a hf now.......

#14 Posted by jashro44 (25538 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stronger: Yes in venom #2 he was stabbed with a spear through the gut and he healed in about 2-3 panels and in incredible hulk #11 he took hits from the hulk. Ever since his resurrection in grim hunt he has had a healing factor. Spider-man is supposedly the only thing that can kill him.

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