#1 Edited by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio
Kraven - The Man Who Likes To Sit Down and Gets Winded Real Easy

IN A BATTLE EXTRAORDINARE WITH...

Daredevil - The Man Without Fear and Neat-o Gargoyles, Check Out Those Guns
Gotham - The City With A Leather Fetish.

Small print

  1. Starting distance; 1 mile.
  2. Kraven and Daredevil have their regular gear.
  3. Both in character.
#2 Posted by TERMINATORXX (3899 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil

#3 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, clearly I've lost the debate already according to Arnie up there. C'est la vi. I'll do my best to drudge on and make an argument later, however. Before I do, is this current version of both characters, Baldy?

#4 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

Well, clearly I've lost the debate already according to Arnie up there. C'est la vi. I'll do my best to drudge on and make an argument later, however. Before I do, is this current version of both characters, Baldy?

Sure, current versions. Admittedly I haven't read much Daredevil in the last year or so, but I don't think he's changed much. I'm sure someone will correct me if I get something wrong.

#5 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baldy said:

@BringnIt said:

Well, clearly I've lost the debate already according to Arnie up there. C'est la vi. I'll do my best to drudge on and make an argument later, however. Before I do, is this current version of both characters, Baldy?

Sure, current versions. Admittedly I haven't read much Daredevil in the last year or so, but I don't think he's changed much. I'm sure someone will correct me if I get something wrong.

*cough* dont read Deardevil volume 1 105 *cough*

Best of luck :)

#6 Edited by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Baldy said:

@BringnIt said:

Well, clearly I've lost the debate already according to Arnie up there. C'est la vi. I'll do my best to drudge on and make an argument later, however. Before I do, is this current version of both characters, Baldy?

Sure, current versions. Admittedly I haven't read much Daredevil in the last year or so, but I don't think he's changed much. I'm sure someone will correct me if I get something wrong.

*cough* dont read Deardevil volume 1 105 *cough*

Best of luck :)

Nevermind, I'm thinking you were referring to this...

#7 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baldy said:

Nevermind, I'm thinking you were referring to this...

LOL yes :p thats the one :p

Starting from a page before that.

#8 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Baldy said:

Nevermind, I'm thinking you were referring to this...

LOL yes :p thats the one :p

Starting from a page before that.

All lies. Evil Russian propaganda.

#9 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baldy said:

All lies. Evil Russian propaganda.

Yeah and the fight began off panel, making it invalid

=D

h5

#10 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baldy:

Okay, let it begin.

Matt's largest advantages in most fights he has against other street levels is his agility and his radar sense. Due to this particular combination, and his skill, Matt is noted for his evasive abilities. Sergei's most noted opponent is Spider-Man, someone with greater agility and at least as good evasive ability due to superior reflexes, speed and his own unique early warning danger system: the Spider Sense.

When it comes to evaluating the two physically, Sergei has unquestionably greater advantages in strength and durability.

In the scans above, you can see him easily grapple with a gorilla and actually knock its head off. Even prior to his resurrection you can see he tanks a massive blow from Spider-Man, one of many instances of him doing so in his career. You can argue that Spider-Man may have been holding back, but this was immediately after he unearthed himself after Sergei buried him in the ground for over two weeks, donned Spider-Man's costume and tarnished his good reputation, so you can be sure he unloaded pretty good onto him.

Aside from his durability, his top end speed is up to 60mph and he has the agility and reflexes to keep up with and tag Spider-Man, the epitome of street level reflexes and evasion. Perhaps his most impressive display was during the Grim Hunt storyline, as seen here, where he is still able to tag a completely bloodlusted Spider-Man, who was so fast that he was dodging bullets from hunting rifles after they were fired (not merely dodging the aim like most streets do):

He could have easily poisoned his blade here, something which is in character for him to do and was originally what Spider-Man thought he had done, but this is a battle Sergei actually wanted to lose, seeking death. Only Spider-Man is currently capable of killing him, and it is his goal as seen in Grim Hunt and his appearance in Hulk #11.

He also had showings of speed like this:

Takes down several henchman, who already have aim on him, and blitzes Kaine before he can react.

I find the starting distance to be an interesting component of this battle, pitting Sergei's unparalleled hunting skills versus Matt's ninja training. Due to his enhanced senses, it's unlikely Sergei will get the drop on Matt fully. Conversely, Sergei has his own enhanced skills and I don't see Matt being able to catch him by surprise, either. At range Sergei has the superior weaponry, utilizing poisoned darts effectively. While it's certainly arguable Matt can dodge or block the darts, Sergei has successfully tagged Spider-Man with them multiple times despite Peter's noted dodging ability and Spider Sense and was able to get the drop on T'Challa in Black Panther Man Without Fear #519, despite the fact that T'Challa was able to discern that he was being stalked by someone whose skills at stealth he internally praised. Unfortunately for Matt, he has nothing in his standard gear at distance that can put Sergei down or even injure him severely. At best this is a major advantage for Sergei and at worst it's a stalemate situation.

Up close and personal, even classic Sergei has been shown to be superior in combat to Matt, as seen by their one prior battle that was previously alluded to:

As seen here, prior to the intervention of Black Widow, Sergei was capable of simultaneously taking an advantage on BOTH Widow and Daredevil. Now this is a classic scan, but between the two the gap has opened even moreso in Sergei's favor since he has received the more beneficial upgrades, primarily as it pertains to his already impressive durability.

Since Grim Hunt, Kraven has been stabbed in the heart by his daughter without missing a beat, stabbed through the chest by Flash Thompson as Venom in a back-and-forth battle between the two, had his sternum broken by Spider-Man without missing a beat in a previous scan I posted up at the top, and successfully survived a major blow from the Hulk in Hulk #11. Even prior to his resurrection it would have been a major task for Matt to overcome Sergei's durability, a challenge that with current Sergei will prove almost impossible.

To summarize, the starting distance is at worst a draw for the two opponents and at best an edge to Sergei due to his superior ranged weaponry. While Matt is the more skilled of the two in classic fighting styles, Sergei himself is no slouch and has exhibited knowledge of nerve strikes over his career. Physically he's stronger, considerably more durable, arguably faster, and agile enough to keep up with Matt and do the damage necessary to take Matt out and win a strong, strong majority here.

#11 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

The aforementioned Hulk beating.

#12 Posted by k4tzm4n (48868 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt: Any chance you could make scans of Sergei's other combat showings in that issue? Looks like you have a digital copy and that's much easier than me folding pages, making scans, then cropping them one by one.

Staff Online
#13 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n Just left my desktop but I'll get them to you next time I am back on it.

#14 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

When it comes to evaluating the two physically, Sergei has unquestionably greater advantages in strength and durability.

Agreed. I won't even bother trying to dispute that, it's fairly clear.

@BringnIt said:

I find the starting distance to be an interesting component of this battle, pitting Sergei's unparalleled hunting skills versus Matt's ninja training.

I think one of the most important and interesting components of this battle is the starting distance

First off, Kraven isn't sneak up on Daredevil. It just isn't something he isn't capable of doing.

Secondly, Daredevil will be able to sneak up on Kraven. I've never seen an enhanced senses feat for Kraven that would suggest to me that one of the better fighters in marvel wouldn't be able to sneak up on him when he already knows exactly where he is. Feel free to post some, It would be interesting.

@BringnIt said:

Aside from his durability, his top end speed is up to 60mph and he has the agility and reflexes to keep up with and tag Spider-Man, the epitome of street level reflexes and evasion.

Tagging Spider-Man is nowhere near as difficult as it should be. Rhino has beaten the snot out of Spider-Man before when he shouldn't even be able to touch him. Kingpin used to consistently be able to hit him as well, but I wouldn't put his reflexes and agility as top street level. It's also somewhat irrelevant as Daredevil has better dodging skills than Spider-Man.

At range Sergei has the superior weaponry, utilizing poisoned darts effectively. While it's certainly arguable Matt can dodge or block the darts, Sergei has successfully tagged Spider-Man with them multiple times despite Peter's noted dodging ability

I don't think his ranged weaponry has a chance of hitting him. Daredevil regularly dodges attacks from Bullseye, who is far more accurate than Kraven.

I can post more on this subject if you like.

While Matt is the more skilled of the two in classic fighting styles, Sergei himself is no slouch and has exhibited knowledge of nerve strikes over his career.

Daredevil is leagues more skilled in hand to hand than Kraven.

The first scan there is actually the last one.

Even prior to his resurrection it would have been a major task for Matt to overcome Sergei's durability, a challenge that with current Sergei will prove almost impossible

Daredevil has dropped people with enhanced durability before, and all of these moves can be accomplished with a billy club toss.

As seen here, prior to the intervention of Black Widow, Sergei was capable of simultaneously taking an advantage on BOTH Widow and Daredevil. Now this is a classic scan, but between the two the gap has opened even moreso in Sergei's favor since he has received the more beneficial upgrades, primarily as it pertains to his already impressive durability.

That fight is 38 years old. Daredevil has improved drastically since then.

Kraven's advantages come from his enhanced physical stats, but I don't feel that alone is going to be enough to defeat Daredevil in the majority of cases. I see Daredevil taking a slight majority here, but it's by no means a stomp in anyone's favor.

#15 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

I won't be able to respond properly to this until tomorrow.

#16 Posted by TDK_1997 (14985 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm saying Daredevil for the particular reason that he is a better fighter for me and has better feats.

#17 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

I won't be able to respond properly to this until tomorrow.

Take as long as you need, not like this thread has a time limit. :P

#18 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt:

While I wait for your response, I thought I'd post this. Even with his senses messed up from having a gun shot right next to his ear he still manages to bat aside a bullet.

And just for fun here's some more. The first scan is very impressive as it takes place before he even wore the Daredevil costume, he begged the guy to give up so that he wouldn't have to kill him, he gave Matt no choice but to kill him by deflecting the bullet back square between his eyes. I hope Kraven doesn't throw any poisoned darts, or he could end up getting the same treatment.

#19 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baldy I should be able to have my response up tonight, sir.

#20 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

@Baldy I should be able to have my response up tonight, sir.

Take your time. I'm off to sleep now anyway. I can't wait to hear more though, you have obviously have a really good grasp of the character.

#21 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baldy said:

@BringnIt said:

When it comes to evaluating the two physically, Sergei has unquestionably greater advantages in strength and durability.

Agreed. I won't even bother trying to dispute that, it's fairly clear.

@BringnIt said:

I find the starting distance to be an interesting component of this battle, pitting Sergei's unparalleled hunting skills versus Matt's ninja training.

I think one of the most important and interesting components of this battle is the starting distance

First off, Kraven isn't sneak up on Daredevil. It just isn't something he isn't capable of doing.

I absolutely agree. He's not. Despite his formidable skills, Matt's senses are too good. T'Challa, with his enhanced senses, was able to detect Kraven's stalking... Didn't stop him from getting tagged, and he was losing the fight before Ororo's intervention, but he did sense him.

Secondly, Daredevil will be able to sneak up on Kraven. I've never seen an enhanced senses feat for Kraven that would suggest to me that one of the better fighters in marvel wouldn't be able to sneak up on him when he already knows exactly where he is. Feel free to post some, It would be interesting.

Disagree. Kraven's senses are enhanced past human due his serum. He was able to sense Spider-Man's presence in Kraven's Last Hunt far before Peter arrived at his location. He sensed Kaine's presence in Grim Hunt before Kaine arrived. I'm having difficulties with my scans, but Kraven's sense of smell at the very least is enough to prevent Matt from sneaking up on him.

@BringnIt said:

Aside from his durability, his top end speed is up to 60mph and he has the agility and reflexes to keep up with and tag Spider-Man, the epitome of street level reflexes and evasion.

Tagging Spider-Man is nowhere near as difficult as it should be. Rhino has beaten the snot out of Spider-Man before when he shouldn't even be able to touch him. Kingpin used to consistently be able to hit him as well, but I wouldn't put his reflexes and agility as top street level. It's also somewhat irrelevant as Daredevil has better dodging skills than Spider-Man.

Every character, even the Flash, gets tagged due to plot purposes, so yes it is easier to tag Peter than it should be. That said, Rhino actually has pretty impressive speed when he's boring full charge and non-jobbing Rhino is a pretty formidable opponent. Classic Kingpin was a different beast altogether.

More importantly, Sergei has tagged Peter at his absolute best during Grim Hunt aside from the times he's tagged Peter whilst Peter was holding back. He's also had no issues tagging Daredevil as I already showed, he's tagged T'Challa, Venom (Flash Thompson version) and various X-Men with little difficulty. His combat speed is definitely fast enough to keep up with Matt's.

As to your claim that Matt is a better dodger than Peter, that's iffy and I'm going to ask you to validate that. At their respective bests, Matt is not on Parker's level--he doesn't have his speed, reflexes, radar sense vs. spider sense is essentially a wash overall, and Peter's top-level dodging feats are at the very least equal to anything Matt's evidenced. Aside from that, whenever they've met, Matt's internal dialogue usually makes it clear that Peter is superior. It takes an extremely sloppy Peter, such as when he was emotionally distraught during Jean DeWolff's death, for Matt to hang with Peter.

At range Sergei has the superior weaponry, utilizing poisoned darts effectively. While it's certainly arguable Matt can dodge or block the darts, Sergei has successfully tagged Spider-Man with them multiple times despite Peter's noted dodging ability

I don't think his ranged weaponry has a chance of hitting him. Daredevil regularly dodges attacks from Bullseye, who is far more accurate than Kraven.

I can post more on this subject if you like.

I won't say he has zero chance, but the chance is slim enough I won't strongly contest the point. Matt is an able dodger, of that there is no doubt.

While Matt is the more skilled of the two in classic fighting styles, Sergei himself is no slouch and has exhibited knowledge of nerve strikes over his career.

Daredevil is leagues more skilled in hand to hand than Kraven.

The first scan there is actually the last one.

Pretty impressive, but there are extenuating circumstances. As seen by the dialogue, Matt is the more serious of the two combatants. Aside from that, Danny was not fighting his usual style, instead attempting to emulate Matt's style. Matt is a pretty skilled fighter, but his edge comes from his enhanced senses, not skill. Danny has stated before that Matt's fighting style is simplistic, and he's a competent, very good fighter but he's never considered one of the best.

Even more importantly, the skill difference isn't enough to overcome the physical gap between Matt and Sergei, and Sergei typically will be utilizing spears, knives and sometimes shields in close combat situations, not engaging in hand-to-hand per say.

Even prior to his resurrection it would have been a major task for Matt to overcome Sergei's durability, a challenge that with current Sergei will prove almost impossible

Daredevil has dropped people with enhanced durability before, and all of these moves can be accomplished with a billy club toss.

Daredevil taking Logan down in such a fashion is nonsense. It's a frequently disregarded scan on this site when taken in the context that the writer who did it is known to hate Wolverine and as such treated him in terrible fashion. Daredevil taking down Hyde in that manner is kind of ridiculous, too, much like Daredevil taking down Tombstone with a crowbar is or Captain America taking down Rhino with a face kick. The fact of the matter is Kraven has consistently taken blows from people who have much higher damage input than Matt does, even pre-immortality. He also has a healing factor due to his continuous use of the serum over the years, again sans immortality.

As seen here, prior to the intervention of Black Widow, Sergei was capable of simultaneously taking an advantage on BOTH Widow and Daredevil. Now this is a classic scan, but between the two the gap has opened even moreso in Sergei's favor since he has received the more beneficial upgrades, primarily as it pertains to his already impressive durability.

That fight is 38 years old. Daredevil has improved drastically since then.

How? His physical abilities are the same, what training has he underwent that has made him to be a much better combatant? Particularly since Sergei has improved by leaps and bounds as well?

Kraven's advantages come from his enhanced physical stats, but I don't feel that alone is going to be enough to defeat Daredevil in the majority of cases. I see Daredevil taking a slight majority here, but it's by no means a stomp in anyone's favor.

No, it's not. I like Matt. I've defended him in the past. I do not see him overcoming Kraven's numerous advantages here, however. He's outclassed physically overall, Sergei is himself very skilled, and incredibly durable compared to his strength class.

In terms of feats, Kraven has consistently given Spider-Man issues, given Kaine issues, had Black Panther on the ropes in their one encounter (his less skilled son Alyosha has also defeated T'Challa in the past), did very well against Venom (who easily stomped Captain America almost right after, the same Captain America who is very evenly matched with Matt) and doesn't really have any defeats at the hands of street level opposition.

#22 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baldy said:

@BringnIt:

While I wait for your response, I thought I'd post this. Even with his senses messed up from having a gun shot right next to his ear he still manages to bat aside a bullet.

And just for fun here's some more. The first scan is very impressive as it takes place before he even wore the Daredevil costume, he begged the guy to give up so that he wouldn't have to kill him, he gave Matt no choice but to kill him by deflecting the bullet back square between his eyes. I hope Kraven doesn't throw any poisoned darts, or he could end up getting the same treatment.

The first set of scans makes it clear that Matt is dodging the aim and calculating for the trajectory. Many street level characters like Gambit and so forth are capable of doing so. Spider-Man is one of the very few who is capable of actually dodging bullets AFTER they are fired, and in the same story arc he did so Kraven still cut him. Spider-Man has also physically caught bullets with his hands before, that is what a motivated Peter Parker is capable of speed-wise.

#23 Posted by _Black (2302 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice debate so far, guys.

#24 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

I absolutely agree. He's not. Despite his formidable skills, Matt's senses are too good. T'Challa, with his enhanced senses, was able to detect Kraven's stalking... Didn't stop him from getting tagged, and he was losing the fight before Ororo's intervention, but he did sense him.

T'Challa's senses are nothing compared to Matt's, he's also not even close to Matt when it comes to dodging attacks.

Disagree. Kraven's senses are enhanced past human due his serum. He was able to sense Spider-Man's presence in Kraven's Last Hunt far before Peter arrived at his location. He sensed Kaine's presence in Grim Hunt before Kaine arrived. I'm having difficulties with my scans, but Kraven's sense of smell at the very least is enough to prevent Matt from sneaking up on him.

I've read Kraven's Last Hunt. I assume you're talking about this scene...

It doesn't really impress me. First, there is no evidence here that the reason he noticed Spider-Man was due to any enhanced senses, rather than from one of the paranoid delusions that he was experiencing during that arc. Additionally, even if it was due to enhanced senses, he doesn't notice Spider-Man until he's virtually on top of him and while it doesn't take long for Spider-Man to punch him, he's obviously not trying to outright ambush him. Kraven also knows Peter's scent far better than Matt's.

I'll have to wait for further scans on this subject, but I don't see what's stopping Daredevil from ambushing Kraven. Another point, scent only tells you that someone is in smelling distance, not their location.

I won't say he has zero chance, but the chance is slim enough I won't strongly contest the point. Matt is an able dodger, of that there is no doubt.

Maybe not zero. Daredevil has, in fairness, been tagged at range, but it's certainly not likely if he's at the top of his game.

Pretty impressive, but there are extenuating circumstances. As seen by the dialogue, Matt is the more serious of the two combatants. Aside from that, Danny was not fighting his usual style, instead attempting to emulate Matt's style. Matt is a pretty skilled fighter, but his edge comes from his enhanced senses, not skill. Danny has stated before that Matt's fighting style is simplistic, and he's a competent, very good fighter but he's never considered one of the best.

Even more importantly, the skill difference isn't enough to overcome the physical gap between Matt and Sergei, and Sergei typically will be utilizing spears, knives and sometimes shields in close combat situations, not engaging in hand-to-hand per say.

Danny has a habit of low-balling people's skill in dialog. He calls Captain America's style simplistic as well, and yet he's one of the best combatants in Marvel. Speaking of good ol' Cap...

Notice that even when he's fighting far from his best, Cap says the even diminished skill for Daredevil is top form for anyone else. He's easily one of the more skilled fighters in marvel. Here he fights Ghost Maker, a Shang-Chi level martial artist...

Daredevil shuts down Punisher...

Daredevil taking Logan down in such a fashion is nonsense. It's a frequently disregarded scan on this site when taken in the context that the writer who did it is known to hate Wolverine and as such treated him in terrible fashion. Daredevil taking down Hyde in that manner is kind of ridiculous, too, much like Daredevil taking down Tombstone with a crowbar is or Captain America taking down Rhino with a face kick. The fact of the matter is Kraven has consistently taken blows from people who have much higher damage input than Matt does, even pre-immortality. He also has a healing factor due to his continuous use of the serum over the years, again sans immortality.

Daredevil's hit on Logan is legitimate, and while it might not work on him as well as shown, it would certainly work on Kraven. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue against here. Daredevil is certainly capable of hurting Kraven. He may be durable but he isn't that durable and he still has a human physiology that can be exploited by Daredevil's superior skill and tremendous knowledge in the area of nerve strikes.

How? His physical abilities are the same, what training has he underwent that has made him to be a much better combatant? Particularly since Sergei has improved by leaps and bounds as well?

Stick, for example, didn't even exist back then. It wasn't until Miller's run that Daredevil really got good at martial arts, and his radar sense was also greatly expanded. Also, the fight is... 38 years old. I think it goes without saying that both characters have changed dramatically in that time.

No, it's not. I like Matt. I've defended him in the past. I do not see him overcoming Kraven's numerous advantages here, however. He's outclassed physically overall, Sergei is himself very skilled, and incredibly durable compared to his strength class.

In terms of feats, Kraven has consistently given Spider-Man issues, given Kaine issues, had Black Panther on the ropes in their one encounter (his less skilled son Alyosha has also defeated T'Challa in the past), did very well against Venom (who easily stomped Captain America almost right after, the same Captain America who is very evenly matched with Matt) and doesn't really have any defeats at the hands of street level opposition.

Would you mind providing melee skill scans for Kraven?

The first set of scans makes it clear that Matt is dodging the aim and calculating for the trajectory. Many street level characters like Gambit and so forth are capable of doing so. Spider-Man is one of the very few who is capable of actually dodging bullets AFTER they are fired, and in the same story arc he did so Kraven still cut him. Spider-Man has also physically caught bullets with his hands before, that is what a motivated Peter Parker is capable of speed-wise.

Do you know who has catching bullets beat? I'll give you a clue, his first name is Matt. ;)

Unless you consider, spinning around and blocking a bullet with such accuracy that it hits the guy shooting at him after it has been fired, to be anything less than bullet-time.

#25 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't missed your asking for more information on Daredevil's dodging abilities, I need to go through my comic collection to find appropriate scans. I'll get back to you on that.